egronenthal
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A380 Vertical Tail Load Test

Thu Aug 11, 2005 3:22 am

I've heard several rumors to the effect that the A380 vertical tail structure failed during static testing at 90% of load (I don't know if this is design load or ultimate load), and that this is adding to the delay in test and production.

I can't find anything on news sources. Has anyone heard anything about this?
 
carduelis
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RE: A380 Vertical Tail Load Test

Thu Aug 11, 2005 3:24 am

Suggest you check the source of your rumour . . .
Per Ardua ad Astra! ........ Honi Soit Qui Mal y Pense!
 
CDNpax
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RE: A380 Vertical Tail Load Test

Thu Aug 11, 2005 3:25 am

So far we've heard the wings, landing gear and now the tail have failed!!

Let's let the rumours rest, shall we?
 
NAV20
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RE: A380 Vertical Tail Load Test

Thu Aug 11, 2005 3:35 am

I'm no A380 fan - but '90% of load' sounds crazy at this late stage of the design, just about impossible.

Unless they put an A300 tailfin on by mistake......  Smile
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
sabenapilot
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RE: A380 Vertical Tail Load Test

Thu Aug 11, 2005 4:02 am

ROTFL-

Do I really need to tell you what you are hearing/spreading as a rumour here is BS, or can you come to that conclusion yourself?

I mean, not everybody can have the same insight in airplane design and certification, but just think about it for a second.... What you are telling us is that the tail of the A380 snaps at 90% of its max load, right? And you are aware the A380 test flies almost every other day I am sure? Do you seriously believe ANYBODY would test fly a plane that has not passed at least all the BASIC structural test safely?!

Just like any other plane nowadays, the A380 had to proof already a big part of its structural strength BEFORE its maiden flight in order for it to get permission to fly as experimental (test) plane. How would you feel about it if your civil aviation authorities would not demand from ANY manufacturer the guarantee the plane he is about to test fly would not all of a sudden disintergrate in flight, thus not only posing a risk to the crew on board, but also to the people on the ground??? See how ridiculous this rumour is???

What remains to be done on the A380 are FATIGUE tests, to see how many cycles (times) certain parts of a plane can be stressed to their limits, before they give in, but that's not what the rumour is about, is it? Maybe it's time launch a new one???
 
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scbriml
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RE: A380 Vertical Tail Load Test

Thu Aug 11, 2005 4:04 am

Quoting Egronenthal (Thread starter):
I've heard several rumors to the effect that the A380 vertical tail structure failed during static testing at 90% of load (I don't know if this is design load or ultimate load), and that this is adding to the delay in test and production.

Damn, now the secret is out.  sarcastic 

If the static test tail had failed at 90% loading, they wouldn't be flying the A380 today.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
ulfinator
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RE: A380 Vertical Tail Load Test

Thu Aug 11, 2005 4:20 am

Quoting CDNpax (Reply 2):
So far we've heard the wings, landing gear and now the tail have failed!!

Let's let the rumours rest, shall we?

I actually disagree. If someone has a rumor lets talk about it so we can know what is rumor and what is not. At least as long as it is stated as above that this is a rumor and there is a question about it. Now I do agree in no dealing with the rumors that are worded as attacking as opposed to those that are asking if anyone else has heard that.
 
as739x
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RE: A380 Vertical Tail Load Test

Thu Aug 11, 2005 4:36 am

You know you guys get very defensive when someone says they heard a "RUMOR". Its not he is trying to spread it as fact. If a rumor comes out that an airline is looking or starting a new route, people are all over it and excited. But heaven forbid a rumor comes out that the A380 or 777LR failed a test and the defensive stance comes up. We are all professional here and can take rumors with a grain of salt. Lets not shoot the messenger of a rumor cause a fare share of them end up being fact or have at least a little truth to them.

Ulfinator, Im with you, let the rumor out and see if there is fact behind it. If people are so defensive over a rumor, well prove its wrong! The whole biting off people's heads over a rumor, when they said it was a rumor, is getting old.

Ok, im vented

ASSFO
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
TWFirst
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RE: A380 Vertical Tail Load Test

Thu Aug 11, 2005 4:40 am

Plus, discussing a rumor provides the opportunity for people like Sabenapilot to provide interesting information that can help us learn.
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
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Braybuddy
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RE: A380 Vertical Tail Load Test

Thu Aug 11, 2005 5:44 am

Trouble with rumours is that they are often started maliciously. Which means anyone can post anything on here, saying they heard it as a rumour.

Then airliners.net becomes a conduit for malice.
 
Bsmalls35
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RE: A380 Vertical Tail Load Test

Thu Aug 11, 2005 5:59 am

If it were not for rumors there would hardly be posts on this site. Seems to me that a lot of the topics and posts here, especially the civil aviation forum, are rumors, speculation and what ifs. I see nothing wrong with this. Most of us are adults and can take information about a rumor with a grain of salt and not jump to the conclusion that the rumor is fact.
 
gearup
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RE: A380 Vertical Tail Load Test

Thu Aug 11, 2005 6:42 am

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 9):
Trouble with rumours is that they are often started maliciously. Which means anyone can post anything on here, saying they heard it as a rumour.

Then airliners.net becomes a conduit for malice.

I would say most of the 'rumours' on A.net are as you described Braybuddy. Some of them have been really doing the rounds judging by the number of times they come up. One that comes to mind is the dissatisfaction that SAA has for the A346. Although some see A.net as a rumour mill, I personally read the forums to find out factual information and reasonable speculation on something e.g.. Aer Lingus' plans for longhaul expansion and what airplane they will order etc. You sure have to wade through a lot of BS to get to the good stuff and I have often stopped reading a thread because it degenerated into a stupid A v B slagging match. Some folks just cannot hide their contempt for one manufacturer or another like the Airbus basher further up on this thread (I won't mention any names). It makes you wonder what kind of aviation fans some folk are.

GU  confused 
I have no memory of this place.
 
Dougloid
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RE: A380 Vertical Tail Load Test

Thu Aug 11, 2005 6:43 am

I'd be speculating about what happens over in Toulouse, but as I recall the static testing on the C17 wingset was going on while the first one was being put together....not sure whether it had flown....the test was 150 per cent of design maximum load and the wingset let go at 140 per cent.....apparently with a mighty roar or so I was told by someone who was on duth when they let go.

If the premise of the rumor is accepted as correct in all its particulars, a failure at 90 per cent of design maximum would be enough for concern but not necessarily enough to stop flight testing.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
as739x
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RE: A380 Vertical Tail Load Test

Thu Aug 11, 2005 6:48 am

Bradtbuddy, then if you think is maliciously posted, post an article showing its wrong. Like I said above, take it with a grain of salt and if its a rumor started for this reason, shame on the. Remember a lot of people on here post enough we know who to take seriously and who not to.

ASSFO
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
Boogyjay
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RE: A380 Vertical Tail Load Test

Thu Aug 11, 2005 7:28 am

Quoting AS739X (Reply 13):
if you think is maliciously posted, post an article showing its wrong

Well, it would be hard and ridiculous for Airbus, Boeing or any manufacturer to make a press conference or a declaration to a journalist to deny a rumor EVERY TIME there is one on A.net.  Yeah sure

It's too easy to say something and come up with a "prove it's wrong".
I won't write an example for you as some people here will take my words seriously, but just think of anything I could say about your beloved manufacturer, the only limit is your (or my) imagination... Then it would be difficult for you to prove it's wrong as A, B, E, or any manufacturer simply don't care about what I can say. I hope you got the idea.

The first to state something has to prove it's true. End of story.
 
dynkrisolo
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RE: A380 Vertical Tail Load Test

Thu Aug 11, 2005 9:01 am

Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 4):
And you are aware the A380 test flies almost every other day I am sure? Do you seriously believe ANYBODY would test fly a plane that has not passed at least all the BASIC structural test safely?!

But if they only fly with very light load, then it is still safe.

They first revealed the plane on Jan 18, but it took to the sky more than three months later. Anomaly 1.

It's been more than 3 months since first flight, they still have only one test plane in operation. The second plane is said to take the first flight in October. By three to four months into the flight test program, all test planes should have already been flying. Anomaly 2.

It usually takes 12-14 months to certify a brand new aircraft, and the original schedule for the A380 certification plan was about 12-14 months. Now Airbus is scheduled to certify the aircraft in October 2006. That's almost 18 months since the first flight and the end of April. Anomaly 3.

This can only mean Airbus is working on some major redesigns or modifying manufacturing processes. They are flying the first aircraft only to tell the world that the certification process is underway. I don't mean this rumor is true, but it's not improbable considering all the anomalies surrounding the A380 program.
 
antiuser
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RE: A380 Vertical Tail Load Test

Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:38 am

Quoting Dynkrisolo (Reply 15):
But if they only fly with very light load, then it is still safe.

F-WWOW was loaded up to just a little under MTOW for the first flight, and if I recall correctly, has already been flown at full MTOW.
Azzurri Campioni del Mondo!
 
dynkrisolo
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RE: A380 Vertical Tail Load Test

Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:41 am

Quoting Antiuser (Reply 16):
F-WWOW was loaded up to just a little under MTOW for the first flight, and if I recall correctly, has already been flown at full MTOW.

I don't believe so. IIRC, the takeoff weight was in the 400-450t range. The MTOW of the aircraft is 560t.
 
Wiggidy
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RE: A380 Vertical Tail Load Test

Thu Aug 11, 2005 11:04 am

First flight was 75% MTOW. They announced at the paris air show that the A380 has a MTOW of over 500t. It has flown to this range according to Airbus, so I doubt any structural problems occur at less than 100%. It could be possible however that it failed at around 130% or so and they were shooting for 140-150%, that has happened before but I find this HIGHLY unlikely with how the program is proceding. Just my 2 cents
-Wes
 
khenleydia
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RE: A380 Vertical Tail Load Test

Thu Aug 11, 2005 1:11 pm

Maybe they meant 190%, not 90%.  eyebrow  Just a thought. And maybe it is complete BS. Either way, I think we will just have to wait until Airbus announces or releases the information. Maybe I'm just crazy!

KhenleyDIA
Why sit at home and do nothing when you can travel the world.
 
knoxibus
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RE: A380 Vertical Tail Load Test

Thu Aug 11, 2005 2:20 pm

Quoting Antiuser (Reply 16):
and if I recall correctly, has already been flown at full MTOW.

It has flown indeed at MTOW many many times already. It went to Istres AFB to do some tests at MTOW.

The vertical tail failure rumor was around earlier this year, and now it comes back.

Believe me, I have discussed with airlines representatives who knew about small issues that were kept silent even internally, so I would think a vertical tail redesign would have been known widely now among them.
No matter what anybody tells you, words and ideas can change the world.
 
MidnightMike
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RE: A380 Vertical Tail Load Test

Thu Aug 11, 2005 3:42 pm

Quoting Egronenthal (Thread starter):
I've heard several rumors to the effect that the A380 vertical tail structure failed during static testing at 90% of load (I don't know if this is design load or ultimate load), and that this is adding to the delay in test and production.

I can't find anything on news sources. Has anyone heard anything about this?

Would say that the rumors are wrong, if something like this did happen, it would have been leaked to the media already.....
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Maersk737
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RE: A380 Vertical Tail Load Test

Thu Aug 11, 2005 4:54 pm

Quoting AS739X (Reply 7):
We are all professional here and can take rumors with a grain of salt

Are we? And can we?

Cheers

Peter
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sabenapilot
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RE: A380 Vertical Tail Load Test

Thu Aug 11, 2005 5:52 pm

Once again, we see a discussion going a bit like this:

*) I've heard that blablabla.....(here: the tail fails at 90% of max structural loading)
*) a few forum members step in to briefly reply they don't believe a word of it
(carduelis, CDNpad, NAV20)
*) someone else gives a TECHNICAL and LEGAL reason why it can't be true
(sabenapilot in this case)
*) a few die-hard believers scrape together a few half 'facts' which are totally unrelated to give the rumor some new credibility, yet totally ignore the LEGAL and TECHNICAL objections to the rumor.

Quoting Dynkrisolo (Reply 15):
They are flying the first aircraft only to tell the world that the certification process is underway. I don't mean this rumor is true, but it's not improbable considering all the anomalies surrounding the A380 program.

Sorry Dynkrisolo, but what you are telling there makes no sense at all and with a minimum of reasoning, you can find that out for yourself:

Quoting Dynkrisolo (Reply 15):
If they only fly with very light load, then it is still safe.

Surely you don't really think for a second Airbus (or any other manufacturer) can just do its structural integrity tests behind closed doors and then communicate the end result to the certification authorities when successful? Do you really believe ANY aviation authority will tolerate ANY manufacturer to fly a plane (even if only as test plane) which does not meet ALL (temporarily) certification requirements and thus put the lives of the people on the ground at risk (for instance the ten thousands at the Paris air show)? Come on, think about it, what you are saying is that if a plane's vital structure fail at 90% of the load it is LEGALLY required to sustain, the authorities would say: 'ok, you may fly it, but fly it gently and smoothly until you've fixed it' and in the mean time let it participate in an air show over Paris for over a week???

IF the A380 indeed failed it's structural tests before reaching the LEGALLY set CERTIFICATION criteria, then it would see it's temporarily airworthy certificate revoced with immediate effect by the embedded JAA inspectors supervising these tests at Airbus and it wouldn't be flying, not even small sorties on quiet days at low weight and with minimal maneuvering!

Besides, fly at very very light loads??? The A380 has been doing Vmu (including tailstrike tests) at Istres up to MTOW only 2 weeks ago, so I am eager to find out what you consider heavy structural loading then???

The reasons for the delays are well known I thought: cabin interior.

Also...

Quoting Wiggidy (Reply 18):
They announced at the Paris air show that the A380 has a MTOW of over 500t. It has flown to this range according to Airbus, so I doubt any structural problems occur at less than 100%.

When we talk about the LOAD on the tail, we are not talking about the WEIGHT, but more the STRESS put on the tail. WEIGHT of the plane obviously is a factor too in all this, but turbulence's, lateral forces, rudder deflection, airspeed, body angle etc are all much more important.
You can easily load a tail to its Max load even when the plane is well below MTOW as has been so 'professionally' demonstrated by an AA A300-600 F/O right after take-off in JFK some years ago...

[Edited 2005-08-11 11:01:05]
 
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scbriml
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RE: A380 Vertical Tail Load Test

Thu Aug 11, 2005 5:57 pm

Quoting AS739X (Reply 7):
We are all professional here

I think you'll find the idiot to professional ratio is significantly in favour of the former.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
SKA380
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RE: A380 Vertical Tail Load Test

Thu Aug 11, 2005 6:17 pm

I've heard several rumors that the 772LR has a wing that will snap with just 1% overload..
Prove me wrong guys!
 
MidnightMike
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RE: A380 Vertical Tail Load Test

Thu Aug 11, 2005 6:23 pm

Quoting SKA380 (Reply 25):
I've heard several rumors that the 772LR has a wing that will snap with just 1% overload..
Prove me wrong guys!

Oh goodness, that is a very stupid comment as the 777-200LR already went through the testing & evaluation period that there is no need to prove you wrong.....
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Braybuddy
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RE: A380 Vertical Tail Load Test

Thu Aug 11, 2005 6:32 pm

Quoting AS739X (Reply 13):
Braybuddy, then if you think is maliciously posted, post an article showing its wrong. Like I said above, take it with a grain of salt and if its a rumor started for this reason, shame on the. Remember a lot of people on here post enough we know who to take seriously and who not to.

It is almost impossible to disprove malicious rumours. Time is the only way of disproving them. If for example, someone posted a rumour saying that the Space Shuttle broke-up during descent and Nasa used library footage to cover-up (something like the plot of that film "Capricorn One" some years ago), no amount of article-posting would kill the rumour.

Some people believe what they want: just look at all the conspiracy theories out there!

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 24):
I think you'll find the idiot to professional ratio is significantly in favour of the former.

I think you just hit the nail on the head here, Scbriml.
 
CHRISBA777ER
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RE: A380 Vertical Tail Load Test

Thu Aug 11, 2005 7:22 pm

My thoughts on the A380 delays (sorry for the long post)

You have the MD11 factor here i think - some aspects of the plane are not as good as they should be and rather than rush the plane out to customers only to take them back in a year or so to have the necessary upgradres and mods carried out. Its better to get it right first time. This is not a slight on Airbus, but they are building a totally new plane, and these things are complicated and you will always encounter things that perhaps you had not thought of.

Airbus must know that after the negative publicity generated by people about the performance of the A340, both in terms of SQ giving back their A343s as they were, despite claims, allegedly inferior to the 777, and the A346s supposedly being way under spec according to sources (it doesnt matter if the claims are true or not, if you throw enough mud, some of it sticks) - they have to know that they need to get this one right first time and if they dont, they will lose the confidence of a lot of important potential clients, not just for more A380s, but also for the A350 as well.

Someone said on here that "Airbus has a habit of delivering less than they promised, and Boeing has a habit of delivering more than they promised" - i think the gap is not as wide as people on here would have you believe. People love to "bash the bus" - but Boeing have their issues as well. I think many people, not just Americans, tend to heavily overstate and sensationalise any problems with Airbus.

One of the reasons you dont hear people bash Boeing in the same way is due to the 777 - it is a damn fine airplane. One of the reasons it is so good is because Boeing took their time with it and went through making sure there were no issues and to make sure that when they finally delivered the big twin, that the airlines were not going to have issues with it. Even so, United, BA, and I think Cathay had some major despatch reliability issues with the 777 on EIS, and these were progressiveoly ironed out as time went on. Once these were sorted, the 777 became what it is today.

I think Airbus has some small issues (im told it is the weight of onboard fittings etc) and the re-certification of a new landing gear set; same as the last but with a titanium alloy rather than the aluminium (?? i think... dont quote me on that) ones the prototype is using. These are all weight issues, and once they have been ironed out, the range should be what Airbus had promised - perhaps a little over, who knows?

We mustnt mistake the rightous bluster from SQ about sueing and broken promises etc - for anything other than commercial brinkmanship. I'm not disputing that they have a right to feel somwhat miffed, but as a launch customer they will have been given massive discounts and various other sweeteners to the deal - there is a price to pay of course for being a launch customer - the delays are part and parcel i'm afraid. Even so, if Airbus offer the A389, you can bet your bottom dollar SQ will be looking to get a very good price on them by way of recompense.

Quite simply, once Airbus has ironed the bugs and gremlins out of the A380 - it will be exactly what they promised everyone - and if thats the case, then EK, SQ, VS, QF, AF, QR, and the rest will be VERY happy with it i think.

If they deliver it before these issues have been resolved, say a reduction of 200 miles range, slightly higher fuel burn etc - then the airlines not be so happy and with the spectre of the 747adv on the horizon, this would be disastrous.
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
milan320
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RE: A380 Vertical Tail Load Test

Thu Aug 11, 2005 7:53 pm

Quoting MidnightMike (Reply 26):
777-200LR already went through the testing & evaluation period that there is no need to prove you wrong.....

It's still going through testing in order to be granted certification.
/Milan320
I accept bribes ... :-)
 
SKA380
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RE: A380 Vertical Tail Load Test

Fri Aug 12, 2005 12:48 am

Quoting MidnightMike (Reply 26):

It was a joke, just in case you didnt get that..
 
AMSSFO
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RE: A380 Vertical Tail Load Test

Fri Aug 12, 2005 4:30 am

Quoting Egronenthal (Thread starter):
90% of load (I don't know if this is design load or ultimate load)



Quoting Dougloid (Reply 12):
the test was 150 per cent of design maximum load and the wingset let go at 140 per cent

Anyone ever thought about how you can easily change 140% in 90%? It's very easy: when 150% of the max load is you goal and it let go at 140% then that's 140 divide by 150 is...93%, which for the pessimist is 90%....
It's so damned easy to create a rumour!
 
dynkrisolo
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RE: A380 Vertical Tail Load Test

Fri Aug 12, 2005 5:50 am

Sabenapilot, I just got to chuckle when it comes to you defending Airbus.

Let me make myself clear, I am not implying that this rumor is true. My most important point is there are quite a few anomalies surrounding the whole program. Some I cited in Reply 15. Then rumors bound to be flying around.


Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 23):
Besides, fly at very very light loads??? The A380 has been doing Vmu (including tailstrike tests) at Istres up to MTOW only 2 weeks ago, so I am eager to find out what you consider heavy structural loading then???

Does this test stress the vertical fin? Once again, I have no interest in arguing the details, because I'm not even saying that the original rumor is true.

Quote:

The reasons for the delays are well known I thought: cabin interior

Gimme a break. Cabin interior has to do with production. You can test the airplane without customer-specific interior. Then there is no reason to keep them from flying the other test planes. If the second test plane will only start flying nine months after the reveal of the first aircraft and six months after the first flight of the first aircraft, you know they are modifying the aircraft. It's pretty safe to presume the first aircraft will likely be one of a kind.

If you really believe cabin interior is the only reason for the 380 delay, you are being way too naive.
 
sabenapilot
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RE: A380 Vertical Tail Load Test

Fri Aug 12, 2005 5:02 pm

Quoting Dynkrisolo (Reply 32):
Does this Vmu test stress the vertical fin?

So again I have to ask you a rhetorical question: Do you really think a TAIL strike does not put stress on the vertical TAIL of a plane?  wideeyed 

Tell that to the 400+ passengers on board the JAL 747 which lost their lives when their plane lost its TAIL because a previous tail strike was poorly repaired (by Boeing's engineers BTW).

Quoting Dynkrisolo (Reply 32):
I just got to chuckle when it comes to you defending Airbus.

I feel confident to say I will not have been the only one to have laughed more than once with your 'neutral' and 'factual' comments to these ridiculous A380 rumours lately!

A round up of your most recent comments you seem to take for 'logical deducted facts':
-) The A380 flies only lightly loaded (Vmu testing has to be done at MTOW)
-) The A380 demonstrated at the Paris air show, despite it having failed a structural integrity test!  Yeah sure
-) TAIL strikes do not put stress on TAILS  rotfl 
 
MidnightMike
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RE: A380 Vertical Tail Load Test

Fri Aug 12, 2005 5:11 pm

Quoting SKA380 (Reply 30):
Quoting MidnightMike (Reply 26):


It was a joke, just in case you didnt get that..

Actually, I did not get the joke, next time, add one of those little smileys  Smile
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dynkrisolo
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RE: A380 Vertical Tail Load Test

Fri Aug 12, 2005 6:45 pm

Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 33):
So again I have to ask you a rhetorical question: Do you really think a TAIL strike does not put stress on the vertical TAIL of a plane

Does tail strike put the vertical tail in either tensile or bending stresses? The answer is a definite no. Since when is tail strike meant to be a test for the integrity of the vertial stablilizer?

If you're truly a pilot, you should know that the major function of the vertical stabilizer is. It doesn't seem like you know if you asked this stupid question.

Anyhoo, you seem to want to ignore my main points. Then I will repeat them again:

Quoting Dynkrisolo (Reply 15):
They first revealed the plane on Jan 18, but it took to the sky more than three months later. Anomaly 1.

It's been more than 3 months since first flight, they still have only one test plane in operation. The second plane is said to take the first flight in October. By three to four months into the flight test program, all test planes should have already been flying. Anomaly 2.

It usually takes 12-14 months to certify a brand new aircraft, and the original schedule for the A380 certification plan was about 12-14 months. Now Airbus is scheduled to certify the aircraft in October 2006. That's almost 18 months since the first flight and the end of April. Anomaly 3.



Quoting Dynkrisolo (Reply 32):
Let me make myself clear, I am not implying that this rumor is true. My most important point is there are quite a few anomalies surrounding the whole program. Some I cited in Reply 15. Then rumors bound to be flying around.

Do you still insist that the delay is caused by cabin interior only? Just FYI, the two 772lr test aircraft, the first one is fitted with minimal interior, the second one is fitted with Boeing promotional interior. Both aircraft will be refitted with airline cabin after the flight test has been completed.
 
sabenapilot
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RE: A380 Vertical Tail Load Test

Sat Aug 13, 2005 4:35 am

Quoting Dynkrisolo (Reply 35):
Does tail strike put the vertical tail in either tensile or bending stresses? The answer is a definite no. Since when is tail strike meant to be a test for the integrity of the vertical stablilizer?

http://www.airdisaster.com/special/special-jal123.shtml


Still standing by your initial claim it is very well possible a plane manufacturer would dare to fly a aircraft with an allegedly structurally failed tail and have it undergo Vmu testing, knowing even a single tail strike can lead to disasters like on JAL123 as described above???

Strange that an expert like you feels comfortable enough to publicly question the knowledge of aviation professionals, yet lost sight of the Boeing mishaps leading to the world's worst accident involving a single airliner, killing over 500 people...

Or is it really that hard to admit for once this rumour about the A380 has been PROVEN false beyond reasonable doubt?
 
sabenapilot
Posts: 2442
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:18 pm

RE: A380 Vertical Tail Load Test

Sat Aug 13, 2005 4:56 am

Quoting Dynkrisolo (Reply 35):
Just FYI, the two 772lr test aircraft, the first one is fitted with minimal interior, the second one is fitted with Boeing promotional interior will be refitted with airline cabin AFTER the flight test has been completed.

The 772LR is a basic 772 with somewhat more range, thus does not have to undergo a full certification program. The reduced test program is only aimed at drafting the operating flight envelope of this new version and does not require a cabin interior, hence the fact Boeing has put no effort in it...

The A380 on the other hand has to undergo a full certification process, not only concerning its flight envelope (performance), but also concerning its onboard systems and furniture and their impact on flight safety and flight procedures. Do you still remember the fabulous entertainment system on the MD-11, which brought SR111 down due to a sudden ignition of the aircraft's cabin insulation which staid unnoticed until it was too late??? In flight decompression and oxygen systems, the temperature control of the compartments, ... all need to be tested to see if they work fine in a plane seating over 500 people. And how on earth would you do the evacuation trials for instance without standard interior fittings? I bet you'd be the first to scream Airbus Industrie are falsifying the test results by NOT using a standard airline interior for them...
 
A330
Posts: 688
Joined: Wed May 19, 1999 12:31 am

RE: A380 Vertical Tail Load Test

Sat Aug 13, 2005 4:57 am

Dynkrysolo,

with your last posts, YOU prove that you have no clue about aircraft strucural loads, flight testing and certification progresses.

First of all, your amusing remarks about the "anomalies" in the timeframes. It is completely normal to have a gap of several months between completion of the airframe and the first flight trials. Do you have any idea howmany new technology is put into the A380? All people, professionaly involved in the technical side of commercial aviation know that. Your post proves to me that I should consider you an amateur with very limited knowledge.

Your remark about the vertical stabiliser is just pathetic. Ever heard of load transfer? Probably not. Maybe they give ATPL's and engineering licences as an extra with your "freedom-fries" where you live, but in my country, we actually need to study and know how an airliner functions.

I'm not someone who is an "airbus freak", I actually fly on Boeings greatest succes at the moment, (I did fly on A320 series and A330), but I hate the fact that some childish people still try to smear mus over the European Aircraft maker.

Yours truly,
A330
Used to be A Sabenapilot  Smile)
Shiek!
 
David L
Posts: 8549
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:26 am

RE: A380 Vertical Tail Load Test

Sat Aug 13, 2005 5:39 am

So, to summarise: a reasonable question but the answer is that no-one here can supply any evidence to support the rumour.

Quoting SKA380 (Reply 25):
I've heard several rumors that the 772LR has a wing that will snap with just 1% overload..
Prove me wrong guys!

I got your point - I thought it was kind of obvious.  Smile
 
dynkrisolo
Posts: 1825
Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2001 12:12 am

RE: A380 Vertical Tail Load Test

Sat Aug 13, 2005 6:44 am

Quoting A330 (Reply 38):
First of all, your amusing remarks about the "anomalies" in the timeframes. It is completely normal to have a gap of several months between completion of the airframe and the first flight trials. Do you have any idea howmany new technology is put into the A380? All people, professionaly involved in the technical side of commercial aviation know that. Your post proves to me that I should consider you an amateur with very limited knowledge.

There were many new aircraft tested before that had made similar or more technologoical leap at the time of development as the 380 is trying to do now. From memory, I can't think of any major Airbus, Boeing, or McDonnell Douglas aircraft testings that didn't have three or four aircraft flying four months into the flight test program. If you think that's normal, I think you're just trying to find an excuse for the 380 program.

Quote:

Your remark about the vertical stabiliser is just pathetic. Ever heard of load transfer?

Ask yourself what the failure mode of a vertical stablizer loading test is. Will a tailstrike get the tail into that mode of failure? Sure there will be stresses on the tail, but is it the same type of stresses that you would see in a vertical stablizer loading test? I'm afraid not. That's why I asked about tensile and bending stresses in particular.

Quote:

Maybe they give ATPL's and engineering licences as an extra with your "freedom-fries" where you live,

Hmm.. How does a discussion of the 380 become a discussion of licencing? Why is it necessary to paint a broad brush against a whole country? Do what I say represent my whole country?

Quote:

but in my country, we actually need to study and know how an airliner functions.

Apparently, you don't know the difference between compression and tensile stresses. Then I don't think you're qualified to make such a generalization.
 
flashmeister
Posts: 2671
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2000 4:32 am

RE: A380 Vertical Tail Load Test

Sat Aug 13, 2005 7:59 am

Do you still remember the fabulous entertainment system on the MD-11, which brought SR111 down due to a sudden ignition of the aircraft's cabin insulation which staid unnoticed until it was too late??? In flight decompression and oxygen systems, the temperature control of the compartments,

Your argument holds no water. IFE systems are aftermarket items not certified with the rest of a new aircraft's systems. Yes, the IFE system required certification, but not with the rest of the MD-11 launch program -- the manufacturer of that IFE (like Panasonic, Sony, and others today) engage in certification programs that are completely separate from the airframe.

Now, you can make a different argument about the Kapton insulation (used not only in MD-11 but very broadly) being part of the certification process, but the flammability of Kapton is a very different argument indeed. Kapton is just as flammable in aircraft with no IFE whatsoever.
 
sabenapilot
Posts: 2442
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:18 pm

RE: A380 Vertical Tail Load Test

Sat Aug 13, 2005 5:33 pm

Flashmeister-

re-read my post and you will see it does not say Airbus needs a real airline cabin interior to test all those fancy aftermarket items like IFE systems during the certification process of its A380.

They need those cabin fittings to test IMPORTANT CERTIFICATION RELATED ITEMS like:

-) systems and methods to detect (and fight or isolate) on-board fire in the different cabin compartments, lavatories, stare cases etc. for instance from, but not limited to, a faulty IFE system which I've mentioned just as an example of a real mishap to illustrate just how lethal a small fire inside a plane can be. Maybe you don't take this all too seriously, but the authorities certainly have understood the lessons learned from SR111 and are paying much closer attention to these things nowadays than in the past.

-) the oxygen distribution system to the pax and the automatic drop-out mechanisms during a real decompression in flight. The manual overrides to this systems from both the flight deck, or -in case of pilot incapacitation- by the cabin crew.

-) 100th of more complicated and less easy to explain items like these which need to be tested in flight and for which Airbus absolutely needs an airline-like cabin interior on the test plane...

But obviously, some here still believe there are other, more spectacular reasons for the delays in testing: wing, undercarriage, tail,... are all rumoured to undergo a re-design, yet what is striking to me then is how you can explain the fact the second test plane has been OUTSIDE the Airbus plant in TLS for pretty much the last few weeks now, NOT undergoing any STRUCTURAL maintenance and still has those rumoured faulty wings, tail, gear assembly etc fitted? How can you explain the ONLY work done on the second A380 is INSIDE its fuselage, whereas 'huge problems' are on the OUTSIDE structure? I am really looking forward to an in depth explanation from you which holds water....
 
sabenapilot
Posts: 2442
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:18 pm

RE: A380 Vertical Tail Load Test

Sat Aug 13, 2005 6:03 pm

Dynkrisolo,

I really don't know what you are up to, but you are defending the undefendable and by doing so you're at the brink of making a fool of yourself, so I will simply ask you this:

In reply 15 you've said:

Quoting Dynkrisolo (Reply 15):
If they only fly with very light load, then it is still safe (to fly with a vertical stabilizer which failed the legally required structural integrity tests for certification).

In reply 40 you keep on following that dark path when you state:

Quoting Dynkrisolo (Reply 40):
Ask yourself what the failure mode of a vertical stabilizer loading test is. Will a tailstrike get the tail into that mode of failure? Sure there will be stresses on the tail, but is it the same type of stresses that you would see in a vertical stabilizer loading test? I'm afraid not. That's why I asked about tensile and bending stresses in particular.

So apparently what you have been saying for the past few days is that it seems possible to you the A380 still has a faulty vertical stabilizer, despite it being test flow every other day, right? Can you answer that with a clear YES or NO, please, because your answer will be conclusive.

Knowing ANY plane will see its airworthy certificate (even a temporary) being withdrawn by the governing authorities with immediate effect as soon as it becomes clear there is a structural deficiency in the design of one of its vital parts, which will make that part give in before the loads on it reach the minimum loads as set by the international standards,

A YES means you believe:
-) Airbus are violating international safety rules and certification standards
-) Airbus has been playing with the lives of over 100,000 people at the Paris Air Show recently
-) Embedded JAA inspectors at Airbus are involved in a huge cover up operation
-) the JAA (and FAA as such also) are turning away their sights not to see what's going on in TLS right now

A NO as answer means that this rumour simply can't be true, because the FACTS on the ground and in the air simply disprove it.

May we have your answer please?
 
aerobalance
Posts: 4309
Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2000 8:35 am

RE: A380 Vertical Tail Load Test

Sat Aug 13, 2005 6:52 pm

Caught on to this one late...... The inside word is unacceptable performance at 1.9 times rated load...... sssshhhhh, don't tell anyone that I told you.
"Sing a song, play guitar, make it snappy..."
 
dynkrisolo
Posts: 1825
Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2001 12:12 am

RE: A380 Vertical Tail Load Test

Sat Aug 13, 2005 8:59 pm

Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 43):

Knowing ANY plane will see its airworthy certificate (even a temporary)

This is the major flaw of all of your arguments:

It doesn't need a temporary airworthy certificate to test flight the 380. Show me any FAA or EASA regulations that say an experimental aircraft need an airworthy certificate. If it's an experimental aircraft, by definition, it's not yet airworthy. The airworthiness certificate is for carrying passengers not for testing the aircraft.

Quote:

-) Airbus are violating international safety rules and certification standards

No, they are not.

Quote:

-) Airbus has been playing with the lives of over 100,000 people at the Paris Air Show recently

They have not, as long as they are operating within the limits, whatever the limits might be. You can have a certified aircraft flying. But if you operate the aircraft outside of its limits, it could still be dangerous.

Quote:

-) Embedded JAA inspectors at Airbus are involved in a huge cover up operation

Not at all. Airbus is obviously reworking the aircraft. That's why the second aircraft will not start testing until October. In the meantime, it is possible that there are certain aspects of the aircraft operation certification that can be continued even with the unmodified aircraft. The objective of these regulatoin bodies is to make sure new aircraft will be safe to carry passengers before issuing the airworthiness certificate. They will accommodate the airframers and other suppliers on redesigns during the certification process. This had been done before with various aircraft and engine certifications. It won't be the first, and it won't be the last. FYI, JAA is now EASA ( http://www.easa.eu.int ).

Quote:

-) the JAA (and FAA as such also) are turning away their sights not to see what's going on in TLS right now

See the answer above.

Quote:

A NO as answer means that this rumour simply can't be true, because the FACTS on the ground and in the air simply disprove it.

Well like I have always said, it's not completely improbably. If you have to point a gun to my head, I would say this particular rumor is probably not true, but not for the reasons you stated. Like I said many times, when Airbus has only one test aircraft flying after 3.5 months, and the next one won't join the fly testing for another 3 months, rumors bound to be flying around. Some rumors might sound more credible. Some might not. There were rumors that Airbus had vehemently denied at first, for example, weight problems. But later they admitted that they indeed had weight problems. So, sometimes, we can't even trust every word Airbus says.

Quote:

really don't know what you are up to, but you are defending the undefendable

C'mon, and you defending the 380 delay is only due to cabin interior is defendable? Even they have admitted to more problems than just the interior.

Quote:

and by doing so you're at the brink of making a fool of yourself,

Look who's talking. And you have not made a fool of yourself when you used tailstrike as an evicence that the aircraft has passed the vertical stabilizer loading test?
 
sabenapilot
Posts: 2442
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:18 pm

RE: A380 Vertical Tail Load Test

Sat Aug 13, 2005 10:57 pm

Quoting Dynkrisolo (Reply 45):
Airbus doesn't need a temporary airworthy certificate to test flight the A380.

So what you are saying is anybody can just screw together some pieces of metal, fit a few jet engines to it and start flying over densely populated areas like Paris, without anybody able to stop him, because for as long as he marks it as experimental on the fuselage and does not transport passengers in it, it is legally OK?

Good luck to you...

Does Al Qaida know already about this hiatus in legislation?
 
sabenapilot
Posts: 2442
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:18 pm

RE: A380 Vertical Tail Load Test

Sat Aug 13, 2005 11:01 pm

Quoting Aerobalance (Reply 44):
The inside word is unacceptable performance at 1.9 times rated load

Which would be a pretty fantastic result, knowing the LEGALLY REQUIRED stress limit the tail is to sustain, is 1.5 times the nominal load.
 
sabenapilot
Posts: 2442
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:18 pm

RE: A380 Vertical Tail Load Test

Sun Aug 14, 2005 12:09 am

Quoting Dynkrisolo (Reply 45):
FYI, JAA is now EASA.

Eh, I am afraid that is wrong as well.

The Joint Aviation Authorities (JAA) is an organisation representing the civil aviation regulatory authorities of 29 countries In Europe (most but not all EU Member States) who have agreed to co-operate in developing and implementing common safety regulatory standards and procedures. This co-operation is intended to provide high and consistent standards of safety and a "level playing-field" for competition.

The European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) is a recently set up independent European Union body. Its main tasks are to assist the European Commission in monitoring the application of European Union legislation by all EU Member States and to adopt certification specifications, conduct technical inspections and issue certificates where centralised action is more efficient, all this on behalf of civil aviation authorities of EU Member States.

In short: the EASA is a bit like the FAA of the European Union and has actively replaced each of the civil aviation authorities of the EU Member States, whereas the JAA is just an international organisation, made up by EASA (before EASA: the 25 EU member states) and other European non-EU Member States.
 
astuteman
Posts: 6341
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:50 pm

RE: A380 Vertical Tail Load Test

Sun Aug 14, 2005 12:17 am

Quoting Knoxibus (Reply 20):
The vertical tail failure rumor was around earlier this year, and now it comes back.

I think Knoxibus is right - this is the old "additional exceptional load test" that was done (and failed) in January. It was fixed by adding 2Kg additional structure to the tail trimmer actuator brackets and has long since gone away (except on here of course, when A380 rumours NEVER go away).

Quoting Dynkrisolo (Reply 32):
If you really believe cabin interior is the only reason for the 380 delay, you are being way too naive.

Then the jokes on you! Time after time it's been discussed on here that Airbus are having to completely redesign the wiring solution for the A380, due in large part to the huge number of options being specified for interiors.

Have you ever tried redesigning and then refitting the wiring systems on something like an A380 at this stage of the programme. I can assure you it will make things like structural issues (or anything else for that matter) look easy-peasy.

Sabenapilot is being anything BUT naive in stating this. For those aircraft that were largely assembled, it'll require a complete rip-out of the interiors, disassembly of a lot of the major components in order to access existing wiring, re-design and reconstruction of the wiring looms, and then putting the whole thing back together again. MONTHS of work!