MikeM2648
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NWA Uses Champion Air To Cover Flights Today?

Thu Aug 11, 2005 3:30 am

Lookup Flight 1983 DTW - LAN:
Departs: Detroit-Wayne County Int'l, MI (DTW) Arrives: Lansing, MI ( LAN )
Gate: Gate:
Scheduled: 5:23PM Scheduled: 6:03PM
Actual: Cancelled Actual: Cancelled
Aircraft: Weather: LAN
Note: Passengers re-accommodated on Champion Air.

Looks like this was more than just a rumor?? I thought this was only for a potential mechanic strike. Why would Champion be covering flights today?...has this ever happened before? This flight is still in the future..they seem to have made this decision well in advance,

-Mike

[Edited 2005-08-10 20:31:16]
 
neilalp
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RE: NWA Uses Champion Air To Cover Flights Today?

Thu Aug 11, 2005 3:38 am

Yep just noticed the same thing on EWR-DTW

Departs: Newark Int'l, NJ ( EWR )
Arrives: Detroit-Wayne County Int'l, MI (DTW)
Scheduled: 2:36PM Scheduled: 4:27PM
Actual: Cancelled Actual: Cancelled

Note: Passengers re-accommodated on Champion Air.


How many planes does Champion have? My guess is their fleet would hardly help NW in the strike case.
 
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clickhappy
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RE: NWA Uses Champion Air To Cover Flights Today?

Thu Aug 11, 2005 3:39 am

http://www.championair.com/our.html

Currently our airline operates a fleet of sixteen Boeing 727-200 aircraft and serves a wide variety of customers that include major tour wholesalers, professional and college sports teams, the Department of Defense, and corporate incentive groups.
 
MikeM2648
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RE: NWA Uses Champion Air To Cover Flights Today?

Thu Aug 11, 2005 3:46 am

Departs: Lexington, KY ( LEX ) Arrives: Detroit-Wayne County Int'l, MI (DTW)
Gate: Gate:
Scheduled: 11:25AM Scheduled: 12:47PM
Actual: Cancelled Actual: Cancelled
Aircraft: Weather: DTW
Note: Passengers re-accommodated on Champion Air.

Its not hard to find ....it appears this has happened a lot today. Anyone inside NWA have a clue what is going on?

-Mike
 
premobrimo
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RE: NWA Uses Champion Air To Cover Flights Today?

Thu Aug 11, 2005 3:48 am

Found another one....

Departs: Detroit-Wayne County Int'l, MI (DTW) Arrives: Allentown/Bethlehem/Easton, PA ( ABE )
Gate: Gate:
Scheduled: 6:00PM Scheduled: 7:24PM
Actual: Cancelled Actual: Cancelled
Aircraft: Weather: ABE
Note: Passengers re-accommodated on Champion Air.
Status: See Note Above
Now You're Flying Smart.
 
premobrimo
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RE: NWA Uses Champion Air To Cover Flights Today?

Thu Aug 11, 2005 3:57 am

and another....

Departs: Fargo,ND/Moorhead,MN ( FAR ) Arrives: Minneapolis/St. Paul-Int'l, MN (MSP)
Gate: Gate:
Scheduled: 2:45PM Scheduled: 3:39PM
Actual: Cancelled Actual: Cancelled
Aircraft: Weather: MSP
Note: Passengers re-accommodated on Champion Air.
Status: See Note Above
Now You're Flying Smart.
 
MikeM2648
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RE: NWA Uses Champion Air To Cover Flights Today?

Thu Aug 11, 2005 3:58 am

Departs: Dallas/Fort Worth-Int'l, TX ( DFW ) Arrives: Detroit-Wayne County Int'l, MI (DTW)
Gate: E6 Gate: A10
Scheduled: 12:25PM Scheduled: 4:04PM
Estimated: 12:25PM Estimated: 4:06PM
Aircraft: Weather: DTW
Note: Passengers re-accommodated on Champion Air.


Do these flights violate any sort of contract NWA has with its unions ...or is this an OK thing to do? I just dont recall ever seeing them (or anyone else) use a charter carrier before. How many flights are cancelled today?

-Mike
 
AirplanePeanut
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RE: NWA Uses Champion Air To Cover Flights Today?

Thu Aug 11, 2005 4:05 am

Departs: Baltimore/Washington-Int'l, MD ( BWI ) Arrives: Detroit-Wayne County Int'l, MI (DTW)


Gate: Gate:
Scheduled: 4:19PM Scheduled: 5:59PM
Actual: Cancelled Actual: Cancelled
Aircraft: Weather: DTW
Note: Cancelled due to aircraft maintenance.
Status: Cancelled

Any relation?
 airplane peanut
..
 
atrude777
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RE: NWA Uses Champion Air To Cover Flights Today?

Thu Aug 11, 2005 4:43 am

How did they get the 727's to the airports? Did they call them or did they happen to be at these airports? Because Champion Air flies to some airports but what if they dont fly to an airport that the passenger is stranded in from NWA?
Alex
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cbphoto
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RE: NWA Uses Champion Air To Cover Flights Today?

Thu Aug 11, 2005 4:47 am

I think they would fly them into the airport. I doubt Champion just sat in Fargo waiting for NWA to cancel it's flight!
ETOPS: Engines Turning or Passengers Swimming
 
MikeM2648
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RE: NWA Uses Champion Air To Cover Flights Today?

Thu Aug 11, 2005 4:50 am

I think they are making the run both ways (from and to the hub). It looks like the champion air DTW - LAN is immediately followed by a LAN - DTW, based on looking at the flight status,

-Mike
 
admluvs2fly
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RE: NWA Uses Champion Air To Cover Flights Today?

Thu Aug 11, 2005 4:53 am

where are you finding this info?
 
nkops
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RE: NWA Uses Champion Air To Cover Flights Today?

Thu Aug 11, 2005 5:04 am

Am I reading this wrong.. or is NWA putting weather in as the reason for cancellation...

This has to be a violation of the pilots contract... unless NWA is operating the flights as a charter, but I don't think they could get a way with that.
:evil:
 
Okie
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RE: NWA Uses Champion Air To Cover Flights Today?

Thu Aug 11, 2005 5:05 am

I think Champion only has 10 planes configured for passenger/charter operations the other 6 are configured for executive type accommodations.
Champion does flights for several vacation operations but I am not sure how many planes are tied up with those tasks and for how much of each day. I was on a DFW-CUN-DFW trip recently through MLT vacations. I believe the same plane did an DFW-LAS-DFW trip as well. That give you a DFW-CUN-DFW-LAS-DFW for one day. I am not sure of how many extra crews or excess equipment that CA has on hand.

If you do a little research you will find that Champion Air is more than loosely affiliated with NWA.

I am sure this is part of the ongoing saga at NW. Looks like it is going to get
REAL UGLY!

Okie
 
AsstChiefMark
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RE: NWA Uses Champion Air To Cover Flights Today?

Thu Aug 11, 2005 6:46 am

I wonder if we'll see a topic entitled "MSP Rarities" or "DTW Rarities" if there's a NWA strike.


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[Edited 2005-08-10 23:49:58]
Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Damned MSP...Red tail...Red tail
 
toltommy
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RE: NWA Uses Champion Air To Cover Flights Today?

Thu Aug 11, 2005 6:47 am

Quoting Admluvs2fly (Reply 11):



Quoting Admluvs2fly (Reply 11):
where are you finding this info?

It's on NWA.com, pull up flight status for the flights mentioned in this thread.
 
Mikey711MN
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RE: NWA Uses Champion Air To Cover Flights Today?

Thu Aug 11, 2005 7:01 am

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 14):
I wonder if we'll see a topic entitled "MSP Rarities" or "DTW Rarities" if there's a NWA strike.

I can't speak for DTW, but Tim keeps a good list on his MSP Update Charters & Diversions page.

-Mike
I plan on living forever. So far, so good...
 
skibum9
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RE: NWA Uses Champion Air To Cover Flights Today?

Thu Aug 11, 2005 7:06 am

From Wikipedia....

In 1987, MGM Grand Air, a charter airline owned by the casino, with a focus of operating VIP charters with luxurious aircraft, took flight. Operating Douglas DC-8 and Boeing 727 aircraft in lavish configurations, MGM Air was one of the most comfortable and expensive flights money could buy. However, by 1994, with business jets being the latest fad for celebrities and business leaders, MGM Grand Air was no longer profitable, and the company sought to sell it off. The buyer was Front Page Tours, a small tour operator based in Salt Lake City, UT dedicated to providing airlift to sports teams and their fans to major sporting events. The name was changed to "Champion Air" and the fleet was standardized on the Boeing 727. However, success never came to this airline, and in 1997, Minnesota Twins owner Carl Pohlad and Northwest Airlines acquired the company. The airline packed up and moved to Minneapolis, where it shared facilities and resources with Northwest, and replaced Sun Country Airlines as the leading charter operator for Northwest-owned MLT Vacations. The airline continues to operate both VIP and general charters for MLT and other operators to this day.

From NW's Annual Report.....

MLT Inc. MLT Inc. (�MLT�), an indirect wholly-owned subsidiary of NWA Corp., is among the largest vacation wholesale companies in the United States. MLT develops and markets Worry-Free Vacations that include air transportation, hotel accommodations and car rentals. In addition to its Worry-Free Vacations charter programs, MLT markets and supports Northwest�s WorldVacations travel packages to destinations throughout the U.S., Canada, Mexico, the Caribbean, Europe and Asia, primarily on Northwest. These vacation programs, in addition to providing a competitive and quality tour product, increase the sale of Northwest services and promote and support new and existing Northwest destinations. In 2004, MLT had $469 million in revenues.

There is your link!
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ejmmsu
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RE: NWA Uses Champion Air To Cover Flights Today?

Thu Aug 11, 2005 9:44 am

http://kstp.com/article/stories/S9844.html?cat=1

Aparently the pilot's union isn't happy. (Not sure why if they were still getting paid)
"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they will have to be disposed of"
 
B744F
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RE: NWA Uses Champion Air To Cover Flights Today?

Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:25 am

From the article: "The company says the move was neccesary because of "an abnormally high level of aircraft that are currently out of service."

But it shows weather as the reasons they were out of service? Isn't that an obvious lie?
 
ejmmsu
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RE: NWA Uses Champion Air To Cover Flights Today?

Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:34 am

Quoting B744F (Reply 19):
But it shows weather as the reasons they were out of service? Isn't that an obvious lie?

No, it wasn't weather.

After the flight status was cut and pasted into the forum, it becomes a little decieving. The part where it says "weather DTW" is not part of the actual flight status. It is simply a link so you can check out the current weather conditions at DFW (or any other city depending on which flight you are checking the status of).

Its something that could have easily started confusion.

In the link above shows "cancellation due to aircraft maintnence"
"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they will have to be disposed of"
 
Okie
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RE: NWA Uses Champion Air To Cover Flights Today?

Thu Aug 11, 2005 11:45 am

Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 17):
in 1997, Minnesota Twins owner Carl Pohlad and Northwest Airlines acquired the company. The airline packed up and moved to Minneapolis, where it shared facilities and resources with Northwest

Thanks for looking that up Skibum9. I had to take care of some other duties.

When CA starts replacing their 27's guess where their "Used but Nice" A-320 series aircraft are going to come from.

I am sure between the pilots and MX NWA looking for excuses to change/modify/or dissolve labor contracts including filling bankruptcy before October change in the bankruptcy laws.

I repeat things may get UGLY at NWA.
I hope they do not get so narrow minded that end up stiffing the paying passengers that pay the bills.

Okie
 
avek00
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RE: NWA Uses Champion Air To Cover Flights Today?

Thu Aug 11, 2005 11:50 am

Quoting Ejmmsu (Reply 18):
Aparently the pilot's union isn't happy. (Not sure why if they were still getting paid)

Because ALPA does not want to establish any kind of customary practice or settled expectation on this issue that could be used against the union sometime in the future.
Live life to the fullest.
 
tcfc424
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RE: NWA Uses Champion Air To Cover Flights Today?

Thu Aug 11, 2005 11:58 am

A few questions that come to my mind regarding these incidents.

1) Is the unusually large number of aircraft out of service due to:
a) The abhorrent (LOL) use of 30+ year old DC-9 series aircraft
b) A mandatory update of aircraft that require extensive out of
service time
c) A slowdown by the mechanics of NW
d) Some other factors that have not yet been addressed
2) Are the pilots/staff of Champion Air governed by the NW agreements with
their pilots/staff, or is it a separate agreement
3) Was this an operational test of "If all hell breaks loose?"

It seems this, if any of the above statements are correct, cannot be a good thing for NW. I agree, it does appear that things will get real ugly real fast for this legacy. I'll finish with a list of SPECULATIVE QUESTIONS that I have.

1) How long could NW maintain its current level of sevice if a strike (or multiple strikes) occur at the airline?
2) Could a strike mean the end of NW if it is not mitigated in a timely manner
3) Is the airline doing ANYTHING to prevent a strike or are they simply waiting until it happens and planning for the worst?

In any case, it appears the skies are quickly darkening over NW. Just as I avoided UA prior to their bankruptcy (US doesnt fly to Austin) I will avoid any travel aboard NW.

Mike S in AUS
 
N2111J
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RE: NWA Uses Champion Air To Cover Flights Today?

Thu Aug 11, 2005 1:17 pm

I had intended to start a topic on this, but I see it happened on more than just my flight today. I was booked on NW 698 DFW-DTW, and as I was walking to the gate was surprised to see a Champion Air 727(N683CA) there instead of the scheduled A319. The agent announced that the 727 would be replacing the normal aircraft. I lucked out, as my seat 21C turned out to be an exit row on the 727. I thought it was fantastic, getting to fly on a classic airliner, the number of passenger 727's in the US must be very small. The cabin crew appeared to be Champion, and they gave out free snackboxes to the entire plane, the ones they charge $5 for on regular NW flights. The flight was smooth as silk, with an on time arrival in DTW, thoroughly enjoyable in every aspect. The union vs management tones of the previous posts have definitely tempered the enjoyment of the flight though.
 
crownvic
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RE: NWA Uses Champion Air To Cover Flights Today?

Thu Aug 11, 2005 1:43 pm

Anyone lucky enough to be in N2111J's shoes should thank the airplane God!!! Reminds me of a trip back in the early 1980's Cartagena-JFK that was a scheduled AV 727-200. After a 2 hour mechanical, a beautiful 720B showed up to wisk us to JFK. That was the last 720 I ever flew and will never forget that mechanical "blessing"

Now for some help. I was under the impression that Champion Air is a 121 Supplemental Carrier. If I remember correctly, a 121 Sup. cannot subservice a 121 Scheduled Carrier. Am I missing something here or has that reg been done away with?
 
hawk44
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RE: NWA Uses Champion Air To Cover Flights Today?

Thu Aug 11, 2005 2:16 pm

Quoting B744F (Reply 19):
But it shows weather as the reasons they were out of service? Isn't that an obvious lie?

Pure speculation but if they say the flight change is due to wx they can get away without giving out vouchers and things like that, if they say it's mx usually people will want something in the form of compensation but that's just my observations from other airlines policy's


Hawk44
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N2111J
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RE: NWA Uses Champion Air To Cover Flights Today?

Thu Aug 11, 2005 2:37 pm

I didn't even realize until now, but I did get a $100 voucher along with all the rest of the pax on the Champion DFW-DTW flight, even though the flight ran on time. Very unusual!
 
pilottim747
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RE: NWA Uses Champion Air To Cover Flights Today?

Thu Aug 11, 2005 5:01 pm

Quoting Ejmmsu (Reply 18):
Aparently the pilot's union isn't happy. (Not sure why if they were still getting paid)

Pilots dont get paid if they dont fly. With more cancelled flights, pilots will be flying fewer hours. They do have a monthly guarantee of paid hours, however, I'm guessing that many pilots usually fly more than that guarantee. Am I correct?

pilottim747
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jblake1
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RE: NWA Uses Champion Air To Cover Flights Today?

Thu Aug 11, 2005 6:21 pm

Here's another question.... Why would Champion be able to complete a flight during bad weather but NWA could not? Is it due to weather at a previous station; preventing the normal NWA aircraft from operating the flight?
 
trekster
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RE: NWA Uses Champion Air To Cover Flights Today?

Thu Aug 11, 2005 6:27 pm

You lucky lucky people

I know it might sound bad, but WOW. Northwest planres getting replaced by 727's i wanna get on one of those BADLY

Hope the situation with NW is sorted soon though
Where does the time go???
 
vinceb1117
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RE: NWA Uses Champion Air To Cover Flights Today?

Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:32 pm

Yeah no surprise here, there was an article in USA Today last week that Champion Air would be picking up some routes from NWA.

As for violating a pilot contract, if NWA has aircraft that are unairworthy (due to mx discrepancies), then obviously they cant' be flown. I think that most of the NWA pilots realize that their company is "on the bubble" and will understand the use of Champion's 727s on some routes. And with only a dozen or so jets Champion certainly cannot operate the entire NW network.

As for the "weather" tag on the schedule, I have no idea... but it sounds better than, "Due to widespread dissension among maintenance personnel".

Another question remains however, and that is will NW mechanics be on "permanent strike"? i.e. - Air Traffic Controllers circa early 80's, they're still on strike today, sort of...
 
lucianflyboy
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RE: NWA Uses Champion Air To Cover Flights Today?

Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:46 pm

I am flying NWA tomorrow DFW-DTW. I guess I won't know if they change to champion until maybe I get to the airport. This sucks! This is my first tiem flying NWA and I am all excited. I wonder if they are doing any reaccommodations due to this?

Any NWA folks know more scoop about this?

Thanks!
 
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jetjack74
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RE: NWA Uses Champion Air To Cover Flights Today?

Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:52 pm

Quoting Pilottim747 (Reply 28):
Pilots dont get paid if they dont fly

Block or lineholder Pilots and flight attendants are pay protected if their flight or trip cancels as long as it isn't caused by the crew itself. Sickcalls, weather, mechanicals, are all covered under this protection
Made from jets!
 
Cubsrule
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RE: NWA Uses Champion Air To Cover Flights Today?

Fri Aug 12, 2005 12:00 am

Let me paste it again for those of you that missed it the first time around

Quoting Ejmmsu (Reply 20):
No, it wasn't weather.

After the flight status was cut and pasted into the forum, it becomes a little decieving. The part where it says "weather DTW" is not part of the actual flight status. It is simply a link so you can check out the current weather conditions at DFW (or any other city depending on which flight you are checking the status of).

Its something that could have easily started confusion.

In the link above shows "cancellation due to aircraft maintnence"
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aviationwiz
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RE: NWA Uses Champion Air To Cover Flights Today?

Fri Aug 12, 2005 3:16 am

All I have to say is that NW can rot in he**.
Proudly from the Home of the Red Tail.
 
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tjwgrr
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RE: NWA Uses Champion Air To Cover Flights Today?

Fri Aug 12, 2005 3:24 am

Quoting Lucianflyboy (Reply 32):
I am flying NWA tomorrow DFW-DTW. I guess I won't know if they change to champion until maybe I get to the airport. This sucks!

Why? I'd rather ride on a nostalgic Champion 727 than a NW A319..... Won't be much longer and the only thing riding 727's will be boxes and envelopes.
Direct KNOBS, maintain 2700' until established on the localizer, cleared ILS runway 26 left approach.