burnsie28
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More NW News, Some Answers

Thu Aug 11, 2005 7:44 am

Steenland is at it again, he's just like "chainsaw Al" from IBM. Just talked to my father that was in a meeting at MSP.

Regarding the Champion flying. Its actually not out sourced.

NW pilots are still receiving pay for the flights that they were going to fly. However, NW is spending much more on this, as obviously you know, NW has to pay Champion to take pax, management knew mechanics would do this stuff, therefore got Champion involved. On top of that, passengers who bought FC tickets received $200 voucher, and coach passengers received $100 voucher.

New information regarding the DC-9's.

Likely they will now be gone within 4 years, NW wants to create a new separate 100 seat airline, and would likely choose the EMB-190 for this separate airline, just like US Airways did with their little branch off.

Aircraft, on average 15 aircraft are out of service each day, however, yesterday alone had 48 aircraft.

Management wants more pilot pay cuts lay-offs

In a new contract proposed to pilots today, pilots would take another 40% in pay cuts on top of what they just took. Also 1500 more pilots would be furloughed.

Looks like Chainsaw Steenland is destroying the airline, too bad their wasn't away to get him fired. Ever since he became CEO he's done nothing but take it in the wrong direction. He's going to end up out of a job if this keeps up one way or another.

[Edited 2005-08-11 00:45:18]
 
commavia
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RE: More NW News, Some Answers

Thu Aug 11, 2005 7:49 am

Quoting Burnsie28 (Thread starter):
Likely they will now be gone within 4 years, NW wants to create a new separate 100 seat airline, and would likely choose the EMB-190 for this separate airline, just like US Airways did with their little branch off.

Personally, I think this is the biggest news from this post, if true.

NW actively seeking to segment an enormous part of its domestic network off into a separate airline or operating unit flying a small subfleet of EMB190s would be an enormous, radical shift for the airline. I completely agree that EMB190s would probably be an ideal DC9 replacement long-term, but I'm not quite sure that separating that operation off into a different airline with a separate operating certificate is really the answer.
 
flyerboyek
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RE: More NW News, Some Answers

Thu Aug 11, 2005 7:49 am

This is really sad news to hear. I know that CO is owned by NW through a special agreement that took place in the Bethune days. If NW gets into bigger trouble than they are in now, what would happen to CO?
 
burnsie28
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RE: More NW News, Some Answers

Thu Aug 11, 2005 7:53 am

Quoting FlyerBoyEK (Reply 2):
This is really sad news to hear. I know that CO is owned by NW through a special agreement that took place in the Bethune days. If NW gets into bigger trouble than they are in now, what would happen to CO?

NW was forced by the US government a few years ago to sell off their CO shares.
 
flyXJT
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RE: More NW News, Some Answers

Thu Aug 11, 2005 7:53 am

Quoting FlyerBoyEK (Reply 2):
I know that CO is owned by NW

This hasn't been the case for years
 
flyerboyek
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RE: More NW News, Some Answers

Thu Aug 11, 2005 7:54 am

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 3):
NW was forced by the US government a few years ago to sell off their CO shares.

Ah...sorry about that. I read that in From Worst to First by Bethune himself, but of course that was written in 1997. I hadn't heard much since then.

EK
 
TrappedinMKG
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RE: More NW News, Some Answers

Thu Aug 11, 2005 8:00 am

All your flip and uninformed editorializing aside, it seems to me that Doug has made a couple of big decisions Dick Anderson didn't want to make. This is at least moving NW in a direction (whether it's right or wrong is debatable, but we'll see within a few years), which is better than the stagnation that occurred for a while under Anderson.

1. They're bringing CRJs into Mesaba, which gives an answer (at least a partial one) to the future of Mesaba. With Avros and Saabs not available anymore, they've got to do something eventually. The CRJ is the answer.

2. HALLELUJIAH! They're FINALLY answering the DC-9 question (side note to Johan: you can close down A.net now. If we're not discussing NW -9s, what WILL we discuss?). If he wants to set up a 3rd wholly-owned regional, go for it. At least they're making a decision. DC-9s are great little planes, and the decision to keep them for so long is arguably the reason why they've lasted this long without major financial trouble, but they can't fly them forever. However, the decision on the E-190 is a puzzlement. The Jungle Jets are great machines, but CR9s or the C-Series would make more sense from a fleet standpoint.

3. They've ordered 787s, which indicates a willingness to expand Pacific ops, which is NW's bread and butter.

4. They keep bringing 330s online, which indicates possible expansion in both Europe and Asia, which can only help them.



Assuming NW weathers the strike, they seem to have some semblance of a plan for the next 3-5 years or so.
 
KUGN
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RE: More NW News, Some Answers

Thu Aug 11, 2005 8:00 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 1):
NW actively seeking to segment an enormous part of its domestic network off into a separate airline or operating unit flying a small subfleet of EMB190s would be an enormous, radical shift for the airline. I completely agree that EMB190s would probably be an ideal DC9 replacement long-term, but I'm not quite sure that separating that operation off into a different airline with a separate operating certificate is really the answer.

Why wouldn't it be?
 
burnsie28
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RE: More NW News, Some Answers

Thu Aug 11, 2005 8:13 am

Quoting TrappedInMKG (Reply 6):
All your flip and uninformed editorializing aside

Your right, what would my father know, hes only a DC-9 Capt for NW!

Quoting TrappedInMKG (Reply 6):
but CR9s or the C-Series would make more sense from a fleet standpoint

Hows that, when it would just be like US idea, it wouldnt be flown by Mesaba or Pinnacle, but would be ex NW mainline pilots, just like the ones at US.
 
aviatortj
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RE: More NW News, Some Answers

Thu Aug 11, 2005 8:13 am

Quoting Burnsie28 (Thread starter):
NW pilots are still receiving pay for the flights that they were going to fly. However, NW is spending much more on this, as obviously you know, NW has to pay Champion to take pax, management knew mechanics would do this stuff, therefore got Champion involved. On top of that, passengers who bought FC tickets received $200 voucher, and coach passengers received $100 voucher.

Rumor has it that MG picked up on some of the cancellations today.

In other news, I saw the mechanic's union VW beetle rolling through Bloomington. My thoughts are with the employees during these tough times.

-tj
 
SATL382G
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RE: More NW News, Some Answers

Thu Aug 11, 2005 8:18 am

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 8):
Your right, what would my father know, hes only a DC-9 Capt for NW!

Then let him come here, post, and we'll give him his due regard. Otherwise all your info is third hand and therefore a bit suspect.
"There’s nothing quite as exhilarating as being shot at and missed" --Winston Churchill
 
FriendlySkies
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RE: More NW News, Some Answers

Thu Aug 11, 2005 8:36 am

Quoting Burnsie28 (Thread starter):
Likely they will now be gone within 4 years, NW wants to create a new separate 100 seat airline, and would likely choose the EMB-190 for this separate airline, just like US Airways did with their little branch off.

Is it going to be named North?  Wink

It's sad to see what's going on at NW...and I thought UA was f***ed up.
 
AsstChiefMark
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RE: More NW News, Some Answers

Thu Aug 11, 2005 8:41 am

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 11):
Is it going to be named North?

North Central Airlines. That has a nice ring to it!  Big grin
Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Damned MSP...Red tail...Red tail
 
JAFA
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RE: More NW News, Some Answers

Thu Aug 11, 2005 8:45 am

Actually Burnsie is pretty much posting facts. I am not saying that these things will acutally happen, but they have been proposed.

Now the time frame part I believe IS speculation.
 
TrappedinMKG
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RE: More NW News, Some Answers

Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:10 am

Burnsie-

First of all, my apologies as my quote button still doesn't work (you know, God forbid that a site with 15,000 users would support the 2nd largest browser out there)...

Anyway, I don't understand your objection to what I said about the CR9 or the C-Series. I'm merely saying that Bombardier products would make more sense for a new fleet type, as 9E and XJ are already Bombardier customers. Adding a new manufacturer with a new fleet type complicates things even further.

Lastly, I'm not taking issue with the information part of your post. I hope most of it is accurate. I hope they get E190s and I hope that they get their labor issues straightened out. My objection was to the term Chainsaw Steenland. When big changes like this happen, invariably some people aren't going to be happy (like the thousands of pilots who are going to be taking a big pay cut), but at least Steenland is doing SOMETHING. He's making some big decisions, and at least attempting to do something with the company.
 
toltommy
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RE: More NW News, Some Answers

Thu Aug 11, 2005 11:13 am

Quoting SATL382G (Reply 10):
Then let him come here, post, and we'll give him his due regard. Otherwise all your info is third hand and therefore a bit suspect.

Burnsie-

Besides crew room speculation from your Dad, do you have anything to back up your info on the DC9 retirements and seperate operating unit for the E190's? While it's become painfully obvious in the last year that the 9's need to be replaced, you really don't have anything to give your claim any credibility.
 
StevenUhl777
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RE: More NW News, Some Answers

Thu Aug 11, 2005 11:21 am

Quoting Burnsie28 (Thread starter):
NW wants to create a new separate 100 seat airline, and would likely choose the EMB-190 for this separate airline,

Didn't Indy Air try basically the same thing? Look where they're at. At least UA is using A320s and Song is using 752's, that's what's keeping those two "airlines" going.
And the winner for best actress is....REESE WITHERSPOON for 'Walk the Line'!!!!!!!!
 
burnsie28
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RE: More NW News, Some Answers

Thu Aug 11, 2005 11:22 am

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 15):
Burnsie-

Besides crew room speculation from your Dad, do you have anything to back up your info on the DC9 retirements and seperate operating unit for the E190's? While it's become painfully obvious in the last year that the 9's need to be replaced, you really don't have anything to give your claim any credibility.

My dad was just told it today at a meeting for the pilots in MSP. He is going to send me the proposed new contract. Obiviously I wont be posting exactly all that is contained, but if I have the time to run through it, ill find a line that state it. It was kind of a shock that all of a sudden they would be gone, likely within 4 years. Likely replaced by EMB-190's. So this actually wasnt speculation, whoever held the meeting told the pilots this, ill look in the contract hes going to send me as soon as I get it. I understand though, with a.net being a.net why a lot of people are skeptical. Ill get back to ya'll ASAP.
 
hammer
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RE: More NW News, Some Answers

Thu Aug 11, 2005 12:14 pm

Beat ya Burnsie: here is the info....

DATE: August 04, 2005
RE: NWA PILOT CONTRACT PROPOSAL.

LABOR COST TARGET.

* NWA believes $1.1B total annual labor "give is necessary for a
successful business plan.
* ALPA contribution is $322M per year (in addition to the $250M/year
per
the Bridge Agreement.)
* Management's position is that ALPA gets no credit for $15M revenue
enhancement in the Bridge Agreement.
* Management's position is that ALPA gets no credit for pension
savings
from a freeze.
* Management views that as our non-Chapter 11 premium.
Management believes credits for revenue enhancements or scope changes
are inappropriate.

CONTRACT CHANGES.

* On 6/21/05 NWA presented ALPA with a list of possible contract
changes.
* NWA believes these changes produce $322M.
* Based on "UAL-bankruptcy like" contract for competitive purposes.
* Management indicated that how we produce the target amount is
immaterial to them.
Management's proposal would reduce required pilot staffing by 1181 (in
addition to the 500+ pilots on furlough).

MANAGEMENTS PROPOSED CHANGES.

* 5 year duration.
* Amendable 12/31/2010.
* Average pay cut of 22.3%
* Eliminate Captain Augmentation.
* Remove seniority list instructors.
* Eliminate premium pay.
* Reduce vacation (30 days max)
* Cap sick leave at 850 hours
* Deadhead for 50% pay and credit.
* Raise monthly caps to 89 hours international and 95 hours domestic.
* Trip rig to 1:4 Wide-body, 0 for Narrow-body.
* Average 4:15 duty day.
Other miscellaneous cuts.

WET LEASING.

* In any year NWA may schedule for wet lease 10% of international
passenger block hours on aircraft types not in the NWA fleet.
* In any year NWA may schedule for wet lease 10% of freighter block
hours
on aircraft types not in NWA fleet.
* In any year, NWA may schedule for wet lease 5% of the total block
hours
of the company to handle peak flying opportunities.
If new aircraft are on order, NWA may schedule for wet lease an
equivalent number of aircraft as a bridge until the new aircraft are
delivered.

SCOPE PROPOSAL.

* On 7/14/05 NWA presented Section 1 C. (Small Jets) proposal.
* NWA stated that-
* Other scope modification proposals for joint ventures, successor,
and
fragmentation restrictions were forthcoming.
* Proposed a separate airline "Newco" for Small Narrow-body flying.
* May or may not be existing carrier.
* May or may not be a NWA affiliate.
All Newco aircraft carry NW code.

SMALL JET NEWCO.

* Newco would operate aircraft seating up to 100 passengers.
* No numerical or use restrictions.
* Separate seniority list and employment.
* Flow up/flow and down provisions between Newco and NWA.
* ALPA recognized as the bargaining representation.
* Contract to be long term with no strike/ lockout clause.
* Contract based on Regional Industry average costs.
Expedited interest arbitration to settle disputes.

SMALL JET NON-NEWCO FEEDER CARRIERS (PCL, MSA).

* Could operate aircraft up to 76 seats.
* No numerical or use restrictions.
* Could operate aircraft of any size for other airlines.
Up to 36 AVROs may be operated with NW code with 85 seats and no use
restrictions.

DOMESTIC CODE SHARE.

* No restrictions on domestic code share.
* Meet and confer with ALPA before entering or extending
relationships.
Eliminate certain DL and CO restrictions.

INTERNATIONAL CODE SHARE.

* No restrictions.
* Meet and confer with ALPA before entering or extending
relationships.
Other miscellaneous cuts.
 
ejmmsu
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RE: More NW News, Some Answers

Thu Aug 11, 2005 12:25 pm

Wow, NW is going right for the jugular........

But it seems it is what is nessescary to stay competative.
"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they will have to be disposed of"
 
COERJ145
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RE: More NW News, Some Answers

Thu Aug 11, 2005 12:25 pm

Quoting Burnsie28 (Thread starter):
Looks like Chainsaw Steenland is destroying the airline, too bad their wasn't away to get him fired. Ever since he became CEO he's done nothing but take it in the wrong direction. He's going to end up out of a job if this keeps up one way or another.

I agree, Steenland has done nothing but drive the Red Tail into the ground, just like with YX's, and US's CEOs. I wish Richard Anderson had stayed CEO for longer. I fear NW may go bust if Steenland continues his actions. I like NW, and don't want them to go bankrupt.

-Jeff M
 
Cubsrule
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RE: More NW News, Some Answers

Thu Aug 11, 2005 1:53 pm

Quoting TrappedInMKG (Reply 6):
The Jungle Jets are great machines, but CR9s or the C-Series would make more sense from a fleet standpoint.

Judging from the number of DC-9s that NW will have to replace at some point, I don't think picking the Embraers (which aren't made anywhere near the jungle btw) will harm them. Look at UA's domestic narrowbody fleet or even NW in the pre-airbus days (lots of 727s and 9s)... if the subfleets are big enough, commonality really isn't that important. This is especially true if the 100 seaters are not operated by XJ or 9E, which sounds like the case.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
N867BX
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RE: More NW News, Some Answers

Thu Aug 11, 2005 2:21 pm

Quoting Burnsie28 (Thread starter):
New information regarding the DC-9's.
Likely they will now be gone within 4 years

I'll believe it when I see it.

Quoting Burnsie28 (Thread starter):
Looks like Chainsaw Steenland is destroying the airline, too bad their wasn't away to get him fired. Ever since he became CEO he's done nothing but take it in the wrong direction. He's going to end up out of a job if this keeps up one way or another.

I think Doug was most likely given a mandate to fire up the chainsaw when he accepted the job.

Quoting TrappedInMKG (Reply 6):
DC-9s are great little planes, and the decision to keep them for so long is arguably the reason why they've lasted this long without major financial trouble, but they can't fly them forever

Wanna bet?
 
burnsie28
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RE: More NW News, Some Answers

Fri Aug 12, 2005 1:06 am

Quoting N867BX (Reply 22):
I'll believe it when I see it.

Look above at Hammers post, pilots were told likely within 4 years if the airline got its way.

Its time for the Pilots to fight back, save the airline, and tell Steenland to F-off.

Employee morale is getting very low, talking to a few NW employees, they said its no longer a fun place or exciting place to work, and its only going to get worse before it gets better.
 
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jetjack74
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RE: More NW News, Some Answers

Fri Aug 12, 2005 1:53 am

Quoting COERJ145 (Reply 20):
Steenland has done nothing but drive the Red Tail into the ground, just like with YX's, and US's CEOs

And there are morons on this board who are having orgasms that NW is "standing up" to these "horrible unions". like this guy in reply# 5 on this thread:


Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 5):
NW isn't playing around, I think its great. They will not let the union take them down like they have done to so many other airlines. Good job NW, I hope that all the sensible MX that vote against a strike continue their jobs with these great new people and the MX voting for a strike enjoy their broke lives...

This guy thinks it's great that NW is replacing experianced mechanics with people who questionable qualifications. Outsourcing is apart of the industry, but this is crazy. I would like to see this idiot thrown out on his butt after working for 20 years for UA or AA. I think he needs his cage rattled a little. You can love aviation and the aircraft with the logo's on them, but what does any of this matter when these aircraft are unsafe for flight. It's a shame to see these aircraft smoldering in an inferno or the lives of all the passengers we carry, being put in danger.

[Edited 2005-08-11 18:57:17]
Made from jets!
 
geg2rap
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RE: More NW News, Some Answers

Fri Aug 12, 2005 1:57 am

Just some FYI, Burnsie is up there with Farve and PSU.DTW on NW info, giving some good stuff before.
Rumors are all taken with a bit of salt, I was on YX yesterday (why fly NW when YX is the same price?) and one of their captains was telling me within 2 years the MD-80's would be on their way out for some desert dwelling 757's. Is it true who knows, is it fun to talk about h*** yah!
Is it too late for the 717 to be in the mix of an NW order? I can't get enough of how quiet that plane is on the inside!
Jeremy
 
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jetjack74
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RE: More NW News, Some Answers

Fri Aug 12, 2005 2:43 am

Quoting GEG2RAP (Reply 25):
Just some FYI, Burnsie is up there with Farve and PSU.DTW on NW info, giving some good stuff before

Burnsie speculates just like most people on here does. His dad paases info down o him. On that note, most of us employed by NW, have no clue of what's going on. All of the stuff posted on here is either in the press or on union message boards, nothing ground-breaking.
Made from jets!
 
Indio66
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RE: More NW News, Some Answers

Fri Aug 12, 2005 4:38 am

Question - Would appreciate a response. I have an NWA ticket JFK - AMS - MUC on Sept 15 and then back on Sept 18th (oktoberfest). All segments are operated by KLM. Is is safe to assume that if NWA is not flying, I will not be affected?

Thanks in advance.
 
MattRB
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RE: More NW News, Some Answers

Fri Aug 12, 2005 4:52 am

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 24):
This guy thinks it's great that NW is replacing experianced mechanics with people who questionable qualifications.



Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 24):
You can love aviation and the aircraft with the logo's on them, but what does any of this matter when these aircraft are unsafe for flight. It's a shame to see these aircraft smoldering in an inferno or the lives of all the passengers we carry, being put in danger.

Source for any of that? Somehow, I find it hard to believe that the replacement workers NW has lined up should the MX strike are unqualified. That would get NW grounded in a heartbeat one would think.
Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible.
 
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lightsaber
Crew
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RE: More NW News, Some Answers

Fri Aug 12, 2005 5:15 am

Quoting TrappedInMKG (Reply 6):
HALLELUJIAH! They're FINALLY answering the DC-9 question (side note to Johan: you can close down A.net now. If we're not discussing NW -9s, what WILL we discuss?).



Quoting TrappedInMKG (Reply 14):
Steenland is doing SOMETHING.

And something has to be done. What part of continuous improvement are the airlines not understanding? The rest of industry has adopted the practice.

First Hammer, thanks for the facts. Wow! Interesting!

Quoting Hammer (Reply 18):
Management's proposal would reduce required pilot staffing by 1181 (in
addition to the 500+ pilots on furlough)

Ouch, the pilots won't like that...

Quoting Hammer (Reply 18):
* Raise monthly caps to 89 hours international and 95 hours domestic.

Reasonable. (efficiency counts, but will they make it like B6 where the electronic notebooks save the paperwork time?)

Quoting Hammer (Reply 18):
Proposed a separate airline "Newco" for Small Narrow-body flying.

Very interesting...

Quoting Hammer (Reply 18):
Newco would operate aircraft seating up to 100 passengers.

E190's!  spin 

Quoting Hammer (Reply 18):
Could operate aircraft up to 76 seats.

Can we say E175's?  spin  Maybe C700's?

Quoting Hammer (Reply 18):
No numerical or use restrictions.

 hissyfit  ok, I'm not very pro-union at all, but this is a blank check!

Interesting times,
Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
N867BX
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RE: More NW News, Some Answers

Fri Aug 12, 2005 7:02 am

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 24):
This guy thinks it's great that NW is replacing experianced mechanics with people who questionable qualifications.

Questionable my ass! I have worked for one of these aviation contractors before. They crawled up my ass with a microscope. For the wages NW is paying its contractors they will get the best mechanics out there. I doubt they will send anyone with less than 5 years heavy jet experience. And in many ways these replacements will be better. You will not see some guy who has spent the last 15-20 years of his career working in a tool crib or with his head up his ass rebuilding outflow valves in an air conditioned shop. In short, there are PLENTY of mechanics at NW with absolutely no relevant experience in performing line maintenance which will pretty much be all that is left after next Friday. Don't worry Jack you will be safe, maybe not on time, but safe.
 
Alias1024
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RE: More NW News, Some Answers

Fri Aug 12, 2005 7:11 am

I thought NW was trying to avoid having the pilots honor the mechanics picket line when the strike occurrs. Dropping this on ALPA isn't the way to do it. How do you tell a union you want to fire over 1,100 of its members and reduce the wages of everyone else by 22%, and not expect them to be really pissed? If this contract offer is for real, I wouldn't be surprised to see the pilots increasingly move toward supporting a strike. They may decide it would be better to take their chances in bankruptcy than agree to more cuts.
It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
 
jetdeltamsy
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RE: More NW News, Some Answers

Fri Aug 12, 2005 7:16 am

Quoting Burnsie28 (Thread starter):
Likely they will now be gone within 4 years, NW wants to create a new separate 100 seat airline, and would likely choose the EMB-190 for this separate airline, just like US Airways did with their little branch off.

What are you saying here? It's not clear. They want to create a "new seperate" aircraft, or a new "airline within an airline" concept???

Quoting Burnsie28 (Thread starter):
In a new contract proposed to pilots today, pilots would take another 40% in pay cuts on top of what they just took. Also 1500 more pilots would be furloughed.

This is nothing more than posturing by management due to the threat of a strike. NW can't grow, which is the long term plan, if they lay off all these pilots.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
7e72004
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RE: More NW News, Some Answers

Fri Aug 12, 2005 8:46 am

I think NW should pick up some 737-700s  Big grin
The next generation of aircraft is just around the corner!
 
burnsie28
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RE: More NW News, Some Answers

Fri Aug 12, 2005 9:50 am

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 32):
What are you saying here? It's not clear. They want to create a "new seperate" aircraft, or a new "airline within an airline" concept???

An airline within an airline using the new 100 seaters.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: More NW News, Some Answers

Fri Aug 12, 2005 10:36 am

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 34):
An airline within an airline using the new 100 seaters.

...on NW's certificate a la MidAtlantic/US or on a separate certificate a la XJ or OH?
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
nwafflyer
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RE: More NW News, Some Answers

Fri Aug 12, 2005 10:43 am

Oh please, NW does not own a piece of Continental, and NW is still a very viable airline -- not nearly the problems that US Air, United, etc. has

Agree, Doug is not nearly the leader that Richard Andersen was -- but -- at this point, I don't think he needs to be -- he's in the good guy/bad guy role right now, and yep, he's the bad guy

Remember, Pinnacle is turning a profit, sorry, I'm not up to date on Mesaba -- but the moves that NW is making were all driven by Richard -- Doug is just a place holder right now

Sorry is this is redundant information, but I'm still booked on NWA, week after week, and I do know that I'll get where I need to go. Real question here with Skyteam is KLM -- they are starting to not recognize NWA miles, not giving the same mileage awards that NWA does -- I feel for anyone who lives outside NA who has been forced to be a KLM ff
 
aviatortj
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RE: More NW News, Some Answers

Fri Aug 12, 2005 10:48 am

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 32):
What are you saying here? It's not clear. They want to create a "new seperate" aircraft, or a new "airline within an airline" concept???

To me it read that NW wanted to operate Newco as a 9E/XJ style airline flying under the NW banner, flying NW owned and sized metal, and paying 9E/XJ wages.
 
hjulicher
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RE: More NW News, Some Answers

Fri Aug 12, 2005 11:03 am

It seems to me that the new airline "newco" is trying an approach like southwest. If this airline can operate but decrease expenditures because all the planes are the same and mechanics/crew only need training on one plane, the newco workface can be much easier shifted in this type of environment. Also, if newco does operate as a new, separate airline, but with nwa perks, then does NWA have to hire unionized labor for these operated flights? My speculation is that NWA is trying this because they are taking a cost cutting LCC business approach, except that it will really still be northwest, and the DC-9's need to replaced at somepoint... kill two birds with one stone. So it seems that northwest is going to be cutting mainline NWA service and creating newco to takeover that mainline service, yet it won't nearly cost newco as much as it would cost nwa because of this different approach. Now, I'm no expert, so this may not be viable, but that's what it seems like to me. The difference is that newco will probably be a partner of NWA's and that it's not really like flying regional because the E-190 is bigger than the CRJ's, so they're right between to the two classifications. This way it's a replacement for the DC-9's and traditional service. Perhaps, since newco will be more targeted as a LCC, then there won't be any higher expectations on it that let's say on Spirit, and perhaps the nwa mainline service that stays is upgraded to what it used to be. So the employees left working for NWa mainline might be well compensated if newco, pinnacle and mesaba can earn profits, and mainline nwa break even. Isn't it true that the longer a plane flies (distance x length), the less it costs, so flights from DTW to West Coast (on A320's) can stay competitive with others because it costs the airline less to operate these longer flights than a DTW - MSP on an A320. (Less gas per mile, more hours flying, less cyles per plane, higher yield passengers (willingly to pay more because of distance).)

I'm sorry if this post seems unreadable or confusing. And the last part could be totally wrong, but it makes sense to me except that I've never taken FIN101 so it's really just speculation on my part.
LH 442
 
sllevin
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RE: More NW News, Some Answers

Fri Aug 12, 2005 12:34 pm

Quoting Nwafflyer (Reply 36):
Oh please, NW does not own a piece of Continental, and NW is still a very viable airline

1) NW does, for the record, have one preferential share of CO stock which gives them veto rights over any merger/takeover.

2) If NW goes down the strike route and is crippled, they will cease to be viable with weeks, if not days.

Steve
 
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jetjack74
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RE: More NW News, Some Answers

Fri Aug 12, 2005 1:20 pm

Quoting MattRB (Reply 28):
Source for any of that?

Sources that say they are? Read below. Eastern used replacements. Look what it did for them.

Quoting N867BX (Reply 30):
Questionable my ass! I have worked for one of these aviation contractors before. They crawled up my ass with a microscope. For the wages NW is paying its contractors they will get the best mechanics out there

I'm not talking about the outsource firms, i'm talking about the off the street mechs for the contingency plan. I worked as mechanic for TWA and for Evergreen before I became an FA. Awful job. I got ot of it because of what of some of the things that went on in the field. Sloppy work and poor maintenence practices. Ever hear of Eastern Airlines and Continental Airlines? Look at what those airlines ended up with. A large portion of Continental 727 fleet were in such bad shape, that several, if not many low-time airframes were retired barely able remain airworthy due to extensive corrosian to main wingspares, because maintenece action and phases were penciled over. Same with Eastern. Many fuselage intergrity test failed inspection by the FAA. I don't know if you remeber a man by the name John King. He was the lead mech out of BOS who blew the whistle on the Eastern fiasco in 1988. Luckily, Eastern didn't lose a bird, or passengers lives, but what could've happened could've been castastrophic. I left the maintenence for a variety of these reasons.
Made from jets!
 
N867BX
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RE: More NW News, Some Answers

Fri Aug 12, 2005 3:21 pm

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 40):
I'm not talking about the outsource firms, i'm talking about the off the street mechs for the contingency plan.

I don't think we are understanding each other. When I mentioned contractors I meant companies that supply "off the street mechanics". The companies that I can think of are STS, AVtechs, Plantechs, and Airplanes inc. These companies will not send inexperienced mechanics to NW. When I told my neighbor (a NW manager) that I keep getting these postcards in the mail offering $32 an hour he said I should call. I haven't worked on an airplane since 1999 so I'm not certain why he thinks I would be interested. He told me that the off the street mechanics must have worked at least 2 of the last 4 years on heavy jets and most of the new hires have much more than that. I am soooo glad to not work in aviation anymore, I now prefer to watch it from afar! Good luck to you NW guys.
 
7e72004
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RE: More NW News, Some Answers

Sat Aug 13, 2005 12:41 am

I guess i better start booking some trips on the DC-9s  Big grin
The next generation of aircraft is just around the corner!
 
burnsie28
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RE: More NW News, Some Answers

Sat Aug 13, 2005 2:24 am

Quoting AviatorTJ (Reply 37):

To me it read that NW wanted to operate Newco as a 9E/XJ style airline flying under the NW banner, flying NW owned and sized metal, and paying 9E/XJ wages

Thats exactly what they want to do, just more halfway between 9E/XJ and NW pay scales. thus, it would still be mainline pilots, etc, they had a discussion about this in their last round of negotiations, just having NW pilots start off at like a CRJ-700/EMB-170/190 instead of a DC-9, the DC-9 would be the next teir up until they are retired.

I have a feeling that most of this wont go through, because the company proposed the exact same things to the pilots last time, which wasnt that long ago.