STARalliance24
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What's Going To Happen To Our Planes?....

Fri Aug 12, 2005 9:11 am

Sorry the previous post has been deleted.....Whats going to happen to our planes when gas and oil will be extinct!!!! The planes that make our lives joyful are going to be GONE  cry . What are they going to do about it? How are we going to travel? Not everyone can afford a 12 day cruise across they Atlantic!!!! Are they going to make electric planes? Will they build a new type of fuel that doesn't come from down below (fossil fuels)??? Feel free to say your comments about this.
 
thelowfarehero
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RE: What's Going To Happen To Our Planes?....

Fri Aug 12, 2005 9:15 am

yeah it's pretty lame how they delete some of those, especially when you are being hit with a good ammount of replies. I wouldn't mind turning a 737, A320 etc. Into a small home, or a solar powered house boat.
I HAATE AA!
 
panam330
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RE: What's Going To Happen To Our Planes?....

Fri Aug 12, 2005 9:18 am

Well, how about a solar powered plane  Wink? Oh, wait. The UK would be f*cked.
 
STARalliance24
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RE: What's Going To Happen To Our Planes?....

Fri Aug 12, 2005 9:24 am

Quoting PanAm330 (Reply 2):
Well, how about a solar powered plane ? Oh, wait. The UK would be f*cked.

Ya the solar panels could cover the whole wings and body. It would add a little bit of weight but I'm sure the scientist can figure that one out. And by the way Vancouver would be screwed too.  Wink
 
thelowfarehero
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RE: What's Going To Happen To Our Planes?....

Fri Aug 12, 2005 9:27 am

hopefully they can engineer a synthetic fuel, maybe out of soybeans , or corn, something renewable. But I will deffinately miss the smell of Jet-A
I HAATE AA!
 
STARalliance24
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RE: What's Going To Happen To Our Planes?....

Fri Aug 12, 2005 9:29 am

Quoting Thelowfarehero (Reply 4):
hopefully they can engineer a synthetic fuel

like cow crap or horse sh*t
 
thelowfarehero
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RE: What's Going To Happen To Our Planes?....

Fri Aug 12, 2005 9:33 am

what about human urine? The airline will practically force beers down your throat so you consistently make trips to the lav which empties into the fuel tank.  stirthepot 
I HAATE AA!
 
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lightsaber
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RE: What's Going To Happen To Our Planes?....

Fri Aug 12, 2005 9:38 am

Quoting Thelowfarehero (Reply 4):
hopefully they can engineer a synthetic fuel, maybe out of soybeans , or corn, something renewable.

There is no reason, other than cost, that one cannot run an aircraft on vegetable oil. Oh, antifreeze and fuel injector cleaner would need to be added (toxic stuff), but you could run the aircraft on bio-fuels. My dream!  hyper 

But alas, the barrels per acre aren't up there yet. But hey, at $65 bbl... the average farmer only gets $550/acre per crop per the monsato web site... so soon they'll be growing our fuel. (vegetable oil is a decent #2 fuel that can be used to heat homes, run in some diesel engines, and in a modified form gas turbines.)

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
N243NW
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RE: What's Going To Happen To Our Planes?....

Fri Aug 12, 2005 9:42 am

You might want to check out this thread in Tech/Ops right now. Personally, I feel that bio-diesels will be the next step in powering the airplanes of the future.

-N243NW Big grin
B-52s don't take off. They scare the ground away.
 
SWISSER
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RE: What's Going To Happen To Our Planes?....

Fri Aug 12, 2005 9:46 am

Let us hope that by the time the crude oil reserves are gone already Aliens have contacted us and show us how there UFO's work!

Seriously,
I'am still not convinced on what is said about the oil reserves...
I live in a country where they ask 1.33 EUR per liter gas or around 5$ per gallon...
Still they import the fuel for 5 or 10% of the price we pay, the rest is tax...

So is it making believe people that the world reserves are almost empty and thus able to ask for higher prices or is the crude oil really exhausted and thus worldwide people would pay such amounts? I don't think so...

Off course a fact remains that aircraft are huge "energy" spillers, so it is good to search for alternatives and get less dependent from oil producing country's or even your own country in my case  Wink

Anyway the future fuel will be H2O with a little additive!
What time is top of descent?
 
hz747300
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RE: What's Going To Happen To Our Planes?....

Fri Aug 12, 2005 9:50 am

To answer your question - if we cannot develop an alternative fuel, which is synthetic and non-carbon based - our planes will be parked in the desert. The will also require the creation of new engines--which can burn these non-carbon based synthetic fuels.

Close your eyes, and imagine a world where planes are powered by artificial fuel which is in unlimited supply. See the planes dancing across the horizon without contrails from our clean burning synthetic fuel...
Keep on truckin'...
 
SWISSER
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RE: What's Going To Happen To Our Planes?....

Fri Aug 12, 2005 10:01 am

Quoting HZ747300 (Reply 10):
To answer your question - if we cannot develop an alternative fuel, which is synthetic and non-carbon based - our planes will be parked in the desert. The will also require the creation of new engines--which can burn these non-carbon based synthetic fuels.

Yes!
it has been 50 years from prop to jet engine, now we are 50 years later from Jet, I think it is time to explore new possible methods!
Maybe a reverse power on Earths gravity! that would be something and maybe usable to get easely in space!
I'm dreaming too off course!
What time is top of descent?
 
mainMAN
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RE: What's Going To Happen To Our Planes?....

Fri Aug 12, 2005 10:57 am

Quoting Thelowfarehero (Reply 1):
yeah it's pretty lame how they delete some of those, especially when you are being hit with a good ammount of replies. I wouldn't mind turning a 737, A320 etc. Into a small home, or a solar powered house boat.

I's not lame, it's pretty understandable in the present climate. Just think about it.........  Smile
 
STARalliance24
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RE: What's Going To Happen To Our Planes?....

Fri Aug 12, 2005 11:09 pm

I'm sure some super intelligent scientist is reading this page and is taking notes. With all our bright ideas maybe we have saved our airplanes.......or maybe not  stirthepot 
 
Matt72033
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RE: What's Going To Happen To Our Planes?....

Fri Aug 12, 2005 11:30 pm

Quoting STARalliance24 (Reply 3):
It would add a little bit of weight

but you'd save weight not having fuel on board!
 
DLPMMM
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RE: What's Going To Happen To Our Planes?....

Fri Aug 12, 2005 11:41 pm

Quoting HZ747300 (Reply 10):
To answer your question - if we cannot develop an alternative fuel, which is synthetic and non-carbon based - our planes will be parked in the desert. The will also require the creation of new engines--which can burn these non-carbon based synthetic fuels.

Bio-fuels such as vegtable oil or soy are carbon based. What type of non-carbon based synthetic fuel are you talking about. Nuke? The reactors are a bit heavy.

Quoting STARalliance24 (Thread starter):
Are they going to make electric planes?

Not likely. What source will you get the electricity from? Batteries are way too heavy, the available surface area on a plane is woefully inadequate to utilize solar (red-eyes would also present a problem) and I doubt that a 8K mile extension cord is a good answer.
 
STARalliance24
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RE: What's Going To Happen To Our Planes?....

Sat Aug 13, 2005 12:02 am

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 15):
Not likely. What source will you get the electricity from? Batteries are way too heavy, the available surface area on a plane is woefully inadequate to utilize solar (red-eyes would also present a problem) and I doubt that a 8K mile extension cord is a good answer.


DAMN you just kicked out that possibility.  Sad
 
matt24wigan
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RE: What's Going To Happen To Our Planes?....

Sat Aug 13, 2005 12:09 am

u all like using bad language
matt from wigan in lancashire
 
ilgrancapo
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RE: What's Going To Happen To Our Planes?....

Sat Aug 13, 2005 12:21 am

18 years ago Iberia celebrating it´s 60th aniversary of its fundation ask for a great sketcher of comic strips (forges) to draw different strips relating Iberia´s history.

From 1927 until 1987, Forges drew different stories about the post years of the Civil Spanish War. In these years the fuel existencies are very poor and Iberia was lucky because most of its flights consumed normal fuel as many of the cars that we use today. The aircraft used in these flights was the Dragon Rapide (De Havilland DH-89).

In one of the post years of this terrible war, one of the stories showed people inside an aircraft and under their feet were PEDALS!!!!. The captain ask for efforts because without it the plane never take off.

That´s were we´ll arrive in a near future if anyone find other energy source and if it´s possible, renovable.
 
SkyexRamper
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RE: What's Going To Happen To Our Planes?....

Sat Aug 13, 2005 12:40 am

Quoting STARalliance24 (Thread starter):
Whats going to happen to our planes when gas and oil will be extinct!!!!

We will never know because that time is far far from now.
Good Luck to all Skyway Pilots! It's been great working with you!
 
nealcg
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RE: What's Going To Happen To Our Planes?....

Sat Aug 13, 2005 12:58 am

I think one great myth that oil will just one day run out one day and we are all screwed. The reality is that as fuel becomes more scarce over the next 50 to 100 years the price will continue to increase thereby making alternative fuel sources more viable. One big thing advocates don't tell you about the failure of alternate energy sources from being a real competitor or petroleum is the absolute cost and efficiency advantage that petroleum has over ANY alternative...Its not even close.

Now if petroleum starts becoming noticeably scarce the price advantage will begin to disappear and alternative will become more attractive.

It is also important to remember that we get our oil from relatively easy to get locations. There are other vast reservoirs of petroleum products still in the earth but they are either very expensive to get to or they are of such poor quality that given the market it isn't worth the cost to refine it. As prices increase it will become feasible to exploit these less worthy petroleum products. So the answer is that current engine technology based on a carbon based fuel will probably be around for at least the next 100 years except for breakthrough in hydrogen based engine systems, which is likely.

my .02
REMEMBER...NO MATTER WHERE YOU GO...THERE YOU ARE !!
 
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tjwgrr
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RE: What's Going To Happen To Our Planes?....

Sat Aug 13, 2005 1:17 am

We are not running out of petroleum. The demand for petroleum has outpaced the ability to pump, refine, and deliver fuel and oil to a hungry global market. Prices are high because demand is high, and those who are willing to pay the price get the goods. Econ 101 applies here.
Direct KNOBS, maintain 2700' until established on the localizer, cleared ILS runway 26 left approach.
 
thelowfarehero
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RE: What's Going To Happen To Our Planes?....

Sat Aug 13, 2005 2:08 am

Us americans are to blame for alot of the consumption. Look at the highways, practically everyone drives an SUV, and not just the smaller models, im talking excursions,escalades, suburbans etc, and 90 % of the time there is only 1 maybe 2 people in that massive truck. It's funny , cause in europe ,hardly will you ever see such gas guzzlers. If we bought within reason, and bought more fuel efficient everyday vehicles, maybe our airlines and economy wouldnt have to suffer so much.
I HAATE AA!
 
starrion
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RE: What's Going To Happen To Our Planes?....

Sat Aug 13, 2005 2:23 am

"Us americans are to blame for alot of the consumption. Look at the highways, practically everyone drives an SUV, and not just the smaller models, im talking excursions,escalades, suburbans etc, and 90 % of the time there is only 1 maybe 2 people in that massive truck."


Yes everyone drives an SUV. Let's see in our parking lot of 120 vehicles I see 2 SUV's and six pickups. All the rest are cars. Perhaps a little more realistic assessment rather than wild overstatement would be more credible? Are there too many large SUV's? Absolutely.

Much of the US is wildly spread out geographically, so mass transit is not a realistic option, but we do need to invest more in metro areas because the roads are simply too crowded. If reliable and inexpensive mass transit options were available, a lot of people would be happy to switch.

The same is true of airplanes. Amtrak has failed miserably to provide fast service on the busiest corridor in the US between Boston, NY and Washington. Aircraft in large numbers between the three Boston-area airports, the three metro NY and three Metro DC airports. Fast and reliable Rail service could have replaced all this highly inefficient transport but Amtrak has failed to offer it. Their Acela trains had to be pulled because the brakes were wearing faster than expected. The whole rail system needs to be replaced with a true high-speed replacement but that won't happen while Amtrack is in charge.
Knowledge Replaces Fear
 
FlyMeToTheMoon
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RE: What's Going To Happen To Our Planes?....

Sat Aug 13, 2005 2:28 am

If we switch to #2 diesel to fuel planes then NW will NEVER, EVER retire the Diesel 9s (aka DC9)!!!!!! They are already ahead of everyone else by using diesels.

On a serious note - despite of all the doom and gloom oil is not going to run out in our lifetime. Yet this is the problem - as long as we still have oil there is absolutely no incentive for anyone to come up with alternative fuels. Pretty pathetic. On a historic note - during WWII the Germans came up with all sort of synthetic fuels for their planes, so who knows, some of that technology will be reapper. But do not hold your breath.

In the mean time - Happy Flying!
Fly me to the moon... but not through LHR!
 
STARalliance24
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RE: What's Going To Happen To Our Planes?....

Sat Aug 13, 2005 3:10 am

Quoting FlyMeToTheMoon (Reply 24):
despite of all the doom and gloom oil is not going to run out in our lifetime

That's what I'm afraid of too......Our children's children will not get the chance to see what we are seeing today (magnificent aircraft flying in the skies above). They HAVE to come up with a solution.
 
satx
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RE: What's Going To Happen To Our Planes?....

Sat Aug 13, 2005 3:12 am

Quoting Starrion (Reply 23):
Yes everyone drives an SUV. Let's see in our parking lot of 120 vehicles I see 2 SUV's and six pickups. All the rest are cars.

Ever heard of Texas? Maybe I should go outside to my parking lot and take a picture for you. You'll see an SUV, TRUCK, car, SUV, V8-SEDAN, car, TRUCK, TRUCK, SUV, car, SUV, V8-SEDAN, TRUCK, car, SUV, TRUCK, TRUCK, and SUV. Yep, that's pretty much it, and you see roughly the same thing on the freeway or any street.

When a Texan goes to buy a TRUCK or SUV, they are often shocked by the mileage they get and immediately run to the nearest tire shop to get HUGE rims with BIG FAT tires to help bring down the mileage to a more reasonable level.

Most of my coworkers are commuting at least 20 miles each way, but when you hear them 'complain' about the mileage, you soon realize that they're always bringing it up because they're actually proud of how low it is. It's even something of a status symbol to be able to drive the least efficient vehicle you can find when you're in Texas.

Quoting Starrion (Reply 23):
Much of the US is wildly spread out geographically, so mass transit is not a realistic option, but we do need to invest more in metro areas because the roads are simply too crowded. If reliable and inexpensive mass transit options were available, a lot of people would be happy to switch.

1. 50% of American population is convinced that mass transit will never work here.
2. No 'reliable and inexpensive transit option' will ever appeal to the other 50% of Americans.
3. The American way to 'fix' overcrowded roads is to just build more and bigger roads.

Quoting Starrion (Reply 23):
The whole rail system needs to be replaced with a true high-speed replacement but that won't happen while Amtrack is in charge.

Amtrak (note the proper spelling) was formed after all other railroads had stated their intention to stop offering passenger rail service. In a post-Amtrak America, there will be less passenger rail service.

Quoting FlyMeToTheMoon (Reply 24):
On a serious note - despite of all the doom and gloom oil is not going to run out in our lifetime. Yet this is the problem - as long as we still have oil there is absolutely no incentive for anyone to come up with alternative fuels. Pretty pathetic

There is plenty of incentive for people to switch to cleaner sources of fuel, such as more independence from the nations that supply America with oil and the ability to have a cleaner environment. However, in America, it is seen as weak, ignorant, and to some folks almost treasonous to be pro-environment. With that sort of mind-set, no amount of significant change will ever occur.
Open Season on Consumer Protections is Just Around the Corner...
 
exFATboy
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RE: What's Going To Happen To Our Planes?....

Sat Aug 13, 2005 3:18 am

The eventual answer is probably hydrogen, derived from seawater using nuclear energy (fission or, if we have it by then, fusion.) I'm not sure how we make a hydrogen-powered plane safe, though.

There are also various biofuel options that have promise, and in the interim, coal gasification could also be a stop-gap solution, although as far as I know research into it has largely been abandoned.
 
SLUAviator
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RE: What's Going To Happen To Our Planes?....

Sat Aug 13, 2005 4:12 am

We have to be realistic, the cost of fuel is not going to come down. That means airlines need ways to eliminate the use of fuel. If you save an average of 2 gallons per flight at $2/gal and have close to 2000 flights/day you save money. This is not a quick fix, you will not see big savings in a few days, rather months.

You can try what HP is doing and throttle back when you have a tailwind to arrive on time instead of 30 minutes early. You can taxi on one engine, but that will only go so far. I want to see someone try that with a 777 going overseas, or two engines on a 747 doing ORD-HKG/NRT.

I think this forces airlines to think creatively in a department where creativity has never been needed. I don't think any person who contributes to this site ever dreamed jet fuel would cost $2/gal. They are now faced with a reality that requires solutions that are out of the box and might have seemed ridiculous before.

As far as alternative fuels go, I am for corn/grain alcohol. The US grows more then anyone in the world. We can dominate the fuel market for ages to come. Forget US Government subsidies to farmers, the airlines alone would do it.
What do I know? I just fly 'em.......
 
STARalliance24
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RE: What's Going To Happen To Our Planes?....

Sat Aug 13, 2005 4:16 am

Quoting SLUAviator (Reply 28):
As far as alternative fuels go, I am for corn/grain alcohol

I'm gonna miss the smell of the burning fuel as the airplane takes off. But I wonder what burning crop fuel is gonna smell like????  Confused
 
727EMflyer
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RE: What's Going To Happen To Our Planes?....

Sat Aug 13, 2005 4:42 am

Quoting STARalliance24 (Reply 29):
I wonder what burning crop fuel is gonna smell like?

French fries. Mmmm.....

Bio Diesel is alive and well. I think you will see it become a mainstream automotive fuel within 20 years. Thats not ver long in the grand scheme.
If they can make it run a piston engine, it can be made to run a turbine; but it is up to the airline industry to demand it from the aviation manufacturing base.
 
kykevin54
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RE: What's Going To Happen To Our Planes?....

Sat Aug 13, 2005 4:47 am

I'm looking forward to new fuels. When the new ones arrive, demand for gasoline will go down and the price will follow. Then, I can actually afford to drive that big truck I've always wanted.

I do hope, however, that airlines can figure out a way to overcome high fuel prices for the sake of the industry.
 
STARalliance24
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RE: What's Going To Happen To Our Planes?....

Sat Aug 13, 2005 5:50 am

If this continues on we won't see any more 747s because they use alot of fuel. Unless the 747ADV is fuel efficient???  Confused It would be very very sad.  Sad
 
Indy
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RE: What's Going To Happen To Our Planes?....

Sat Aug 13, 2005 5:55 am

Quoting Thelowfarehero (Reply 6):
what about human urine? The airline will practically force beers down your throat so you consistently make trips to the lav which empties into the fuel tank.

And if the plane ran out of fuel and didn't make it to its final destination no one on board would be sober enough to care  Smile
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
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lightsaber
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RE: What's Going To Happen To Our Planes?....

Sat Aug 13, 2005 6:00 am

Quoting Nealcg (Reply 20):
I think one great myth that oil will just one day run out one day and we are all screwed. The reality is that as fuel becomes more scarce over the next 50 to 100 years the price will continue to increase thereby making alternative fuel sources more viable.

Very sensible post. Most Mathusians forget that as a resource becomes scarce alternatives are found.

And for those paranoid of bio carbon fuels need to recall one thing: its a closed cycle. The carbon in the fuel came from the atmosphere; its a nice closed cycle.

Quoting STARalliance24 (Reply 29):
I'm gonna miss the smell of the burning fuel as the airplane takes off. But I wonder what burning crop fuel is gonna smell like????

The airport will smell like a dinner.  duck 

Quoting 727EMflyer (Reply 30):
Bio Diesel is alive and well. I think you will see it become a mainstream automotive fuel within 20 years. Thats not ver long in the grand scheme.

I hope! I hope!  hyper 

On Wikipedia they claim an algea based bio-diesel could grow over 10,000 US gallons/acre! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodiesel

10,000 Gallons an acre would be over $7,500 for the farmer. At that point, forget food (which is about $550/acre per crop). I hope! I hope!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodiesel

Ok, 10,000 Gallons per acre per year is better than I could hope for.  Smile  hyper 

Note, that the farm needs almost 9 US gallons/acre just to run from the same article.

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
lhrmaccoll
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RE: What's Going To Happen To Our Planes?....

Sat Aug 13, 2005 6:03 am

I agree with the fact that America is to blame for a hell of a lot (not all) of the economic problems, fuel prices etc.
1: Out of the whole worlds SUV sales 70% go to US....
2: Why does every other Chrysler sedan whatever its called have a V6 or V8 that produces the same power as an Audi 1.8 and uses 3 times the fuel?
3: And its clear why The US produces the most pollution, and isn't doing anything about it.
George W Bush and his Oil buddies
 
STARalliance24
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RE: What's Going To Happen To Our Planes?....

Sat Aug 13, 2005 6:05 am

Quoting Lhrmaccoll (Reply 35):
The US produces the most pollution

Isn't it china??? Or India, never heard of the U.S being the most pollutted country.
 
lhrmaccoll
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RE: What's Going To Happen To Our Planes?....

Sat Aug 13, 2005 6:07 am

No, for population were the figures i were reffeering to.
If you look on a pollution map, America is a big red light.
China clearly produces more, but then they have 1.3billion citizens, i was reffering to per head.
Sorry for the confusion
 
STARalliance24
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RE: What's Going To Happen To Our Planes?....

Sat Aug 13, 2005 6:12 am

Quoting Lhrmaccoll (Reply 37):
No, for population were the figures i were reffeering to.
If you look on a pollution map, America is a big red light.
China clearly produces more, but then they have 1.3billion citizens, i was reffering to per head.
Sorry for the confusion

It's okay at least now I know Big grin But do you know where canada stands in the pollution map???
 
satx
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RE: What's Going To Happen To Our Planes?....

Sat Aug 13, 2005 6:26 am

Quoting STARalliance24 (Reply 36):

Isn't it china??? Or India, never heard of the U.S being the most pollutted country.

I've heard time and again that the US represents roughly 5% of the world's population but produces roughly 25% of the worlds pollution. Who can beat that?
Open Season on Consumer Protections is Just Around the Corner...
 
lhrmaccoll
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RE: What's Going To Happen To Our Planes?....

Sat Aug 13, 2005 6:31 am

Quoting SATX (Reply 39):

Indeed.
BTW, as far as i know Canada as a sole country produces vewry little pollution per head, but shows up high, as the winds spread pollution in the air from the US.
 
bsu747
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RE: What's Going To Happen To Our Planes?....

Sat Aug 13, 2005 7:32 am

Quoting SLUAviator (Reply 28):
I don't think any person who contributes to this site ever dreamed jet fuel would cost $2/gal.

My heart bleeds, come back and moan when you are paying over $7 a gallon, Here in the UK I have just filled my car (Ford Focus) with petrol (gas) and it cost me almost $100 for around 14 gallons.


BSU747
Flying may not be all plain sailing, but the fun of it is worth the price.
 
thelowfarehero
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RE: What's Going To Happen To Our Planes?....

Sat Aug 13, 2005 7:49 am

Lhrmaccoll From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 57 posts, RR: 0
Reply 35, posted Fri Aug 12 2005 23:03:14 UTC+2 and read 610 times:


I agree with the fact that America is to blame for a hell of a lot (not all) of the economic problems, fuel prices etc.
1: Out of the whole worlds SUV sales 70% go to US....
2: Why does every other Chrysler sedan whatever its called have a V6 or V8 that produces the same power as an Audi 1.8 and uses 3 times the fuel?
3: And its clear why The US produces the most pollution, and isn't doing anything about it.
George W Bush and his Oil buddies


---- I couldn't agree more...Here in L.A. 2 out of every 5 vehicles is an SUV with a V-6 or greater powerplant. A couple of my buddies have them and they are single with no families too! Just a big waste of gas.
I HAATE AA!
 
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ER757
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RE: What's Going To Happen To Our Planes?....

Sat Aug 13, 2005 8:15 am

Quoting Nealcg (Reply 20):
my .02

Your post was worth way more than .02. That was one of the most well-written, well thought out views on the situation I've ever seen. Welcome to my respected users list  bigthumbsup 
 
tsnamm
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RE: What's Going To Happen To Our Planes?....

Sat Aug 13, 2005 8:25 am

as long as people are willing to PAY for their fuel they can drive whatever they want...as far as mass transit,railroads etc. goes...are you willing to have the government build and operate a comprehensive rail service??? currently the answer is NO...if they were, Amtrak would already be doing it...the US govt. is never going to subsidize a massive increase in spending to create a nationwide rail network...they don't invest in any transportation infrastructure period...when was the last new airport built?...where are all the new mega engineering projects being built (bridges,tunnels,skyscrapers, etc.)? I know where they're NOT being built...here in the US...it's going to take a lot more than $3.00 fuel prices to change that.
 
dl757md
Posts: 1482
Joined: Mon May 24, 2004 9:32 am

RE: What's Going To Happen To Our Planes?....

Sat Aug 13, 2005 8:32 am

Quoting HZ747300 (Reply 10):
Close your eyes, and imagine a world where planes are powered by artificial fuel which is in unlimited supply. See the planes dancing across the horizon without contrails from our clean burning synthetic fuel...

All hydrocarbon fuels, synthetic or petroleum, produce water when burned which is what makes up a contrail.

Quoting Lhrmaccoll (Reply 35):
2: Why does every other Chrysler sedan whatever its called have a V6 or V8 that produces the same power as an Audi 1.8 and uses 3 times the fuel?

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/bymake/Audi2005.shtml
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/bymake/Chrysler2005.shtml

The above links show that a 3252 lb Compact (EPA classification) class Audi A4 1.8 (170HP) gets 23 MPG city and 29 MPG highway while costing $1494 for gas and emitting 7.5 tons of greenhouse gases annually. The 4100lb Large (EPA classification) Chrysler 300C/SRT-8 2.7 (190HP) gets 21 MPG city and 28 MPG highway while costing $1432 for gas and emitting 8.1 tons of greenhouse gases. These two cars that you mentioned are so close in their fuel efficiency that they both get an EPA rating of 3 out of 10.

Care to make any other wildly false easily refutable statements?

I don't think you'll see an alternative fueled airliner in the near future. The economics still aren't near where they need to be. All fuels have a certain energy content or energy density commonly expressed in BTUs. Jet fuel has an energy density of about 19,200 BTUs per pound. Bio diesel has an energy density of 15993 BTUs per pound. That raises the issue that if you could burn biodiesel in an aircraft it would reduce the range of that aircraft by about 20 percent. At current production costs and capacities alternative fuels are not economically viable at this point. As the cost of petroleum based fuels rises and technology and volume production brings down the cost of alternative fuels we will see a transition to them. As to when that will happen is anybodies guess.

Dl757Md
757 Most beautiful airliner in the sky!
 
SWISSER
Posts: 1568
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 11:31 am

RE: What's Going To Happen To Our Planes?....

Sat Aug 13, 2005 8:50 am

Quoting Tjwgrr (Reply 21):
We are not running out of petroleum. The demand for petroleum has outpaced the ability to pump, refine, and deliver fuel and oil to a hungry global market. Prices are high because demand is high, and those who are willing to pay the price get the goods. Econ 101 applies here.

that is right on the spot!

Quoting Thelowfarehero (Reply 22):
Us americans are to blame for alot of the consumption. Look at the highways, practically everyone drives an SUV, and not just the smaller models, im talking excursions,escalades, suburbans etc, and 90 % of the time there is only 1 maybe 2 people in that massive truck. It's funny , cause in europe ,hardly will you ever see such gas guzzlers. If we bought within reason, and bought more fuel efficient everyday vehicles, maybe our airlines and economy wouldnt have to suffer so much.

Still a car running on gas fuel is much less polutant for the environment then a diesel car...
I was driving behind a VW passat today and it constantly blowed little pieces of dust out of it's tailpipe, a friend of me who has such a machine said that that was plain normal...not for me...
BTW in Belgium you see many SUV's!

Quoting Lhrmaccoll (Reply 35):
I agree with the fact that America is to blame for a hell of a lot (not all) of the economic problems, fuel prices etc.
1: Out of the whole worlds SUV sales 70% go to US....
2: Why does every other Chrysler sedan whatever its called have a V6 or V8 that produces the same power as an Audi 1.8 and uses 3 times the fuel?
3: And its clear why The US produces the most pollution, and isn't doing anything about it.
George W Bush and his Oil buddies

Cars in the US or in the EU use a lot less fuel compared what they used in the 70's and 80's, so the problem the Oil states would want us to believe would have arised earlier I think...

point 2:
funny because my Chrysler 300M V6 210HP has around triple the performance and uses just 1 liter of gas /100 KM more compared to the 1.8 engine...
and I tested that engine out on a VW golf...

The real sad part is that most europeans still think US cars of today are still that gas slickers from the 80's without performance ...
US manufacterers today have a lot of expierience in the setup for a V engine, and they defenitly work around less consuming systems!
Maybe a future HEMI V6 that can shut down 3 cylinders when in the city would be a nice engine!
I drove a 4 cylinder Chevrolet classic in LA not so long ago, and price compared to value (also in fuel usage), you have a lot more car then a VW golf...
and I would certainly hurt my a*s driving from LA to Phoenix in a Golf  
BTW Dodge will start selling in Belgium in October, maybe that's a sign!

[Edited 2005-08-13 01:55:18]

[Edited 2005-08-13 01:59:24]
What time is top of descent?
 
kykevin54
Posts: 80
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 4:01 pm

RE: What's Going To Happen To Our Planes?....

Sat Aug 13, 2005 1:15 pm

Quoting Lhrmaccoll (Reply 35):
I agree with the fact that America is to blame for a hell of a lot (not all) of the economic problems, fuel prices etc.

The fact? I don't think that America is to blame for the world's economic problems can be called a fact. In fact, in my view, the opposite would be true. We're to blame for most of the world's economic success. Sitting around and blaming groups of people and countries for things doesn't do any good. It simply divides the world. My country has problems, as well as any other country does. I lived outside of the States for almost three years, and let me tell you, we're not near as screwed up as a lot of the rest of the world.

Lay off the US for a while. And I hope that people would lay off the Europeans. Bickering and name calling won't do anything but make problems worse.
 
Ivo
Posts: 312
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2000 1:49 am

RE: What's Going To Happen To Our Planes?....

Sat Aug 13, 2005 7:30 pm

Boeing together with Cronus Motors is developing an electric motor for taxiing:

http://www.flightinternational.com/A...+prove+electric-drive+concept.html

Around 20 years ago, the Russians and Airbus did some research for a hydrogen fueled airliner. (A310?). I think the problem was that they needed more hydrogen than fuel for the same distance. I remember seeing a plane with an extra fueltank on top of the fuselage.

Cheers,
Ivo
 
lhrmaccoll
Posts: 567
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 6:12 am

RE: What's Going To Happen To Our Planes?....

Sat Aug 13, 2005 7:47 pm

Hi All, i am not name calling, or targeting the US, just targeting some people's ignorance when it comes to cars and travel.
Over here, the Audi 1.8's offical figures are 38mpg, and my mums care gets 40 easily, and the Chrysler bit was just an example. My real pet hate is SUVs, in the US, in europe, with people that have the attitude that as long as they are not around to see fuel run out, they can produce as much pollution from their 3 G-wagons and Escalades as they want.
Going back to Goerge Bush, why the hell do you think he ditched Bill Clinton's plans for significantly reducing pollution and oil usage?! Yes, thats right, because hes in the oil business.
Alex

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