positiverate
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Airline Security Changes Planned

Sun Aug 14, 2005 1:13 am

Interesting...

Airline Security Changes Planned
Threats Reassessed To Make Travel Easier for Public

By Sara Kehaulani Goo
Washington Post Staff Writer
Saturday, August 13, 2005; A01



The new head of the Transportation Security Administration has called for a broad review of the nation's air security system to update the agency's approach to threats and reduce checkpoint hassles for passengers.

Edmund S. "Kip" Hawley, an assistant secretary of homeland security, directed his staff to propose changes in how the agency screens 2 million passengers a day. The staff's first set of recommendations, detailed in an Aug. 5 document, includes proposals to lift the ban on various carry-on items such as scissors, razor blades and knives less than five inches long. It also proposes that passengers no longer routinely be required to remove their shoes at security checkpoints.

Agency officials plan to meet this month to consider the proposals, which would require Hawley's approval to go into effect.

Since his confirmation in June, Hawley has told his staff that he would reevaluate security measures put in place since the terrorist attacks in 2001 and ensure that they make sense, given today's threats. The TSA is struggling with new cuts in the screener workforce imposed by Congress while its new leaders hope to improve the agency's poor reputation among air travelers by introducing more customer-friendly measures. Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff signaled the effort when he announced that the agency would eliminate a requirement that forced passengers to remain in their seats during the first and last 30 minutes of flights using Reagan National Airport.

"The process is designed to stimulate creative thinking and challenge conventional beliefs," said TSA spokesman Mark O. Hatfield Jr. "In the end, it will allow us to work smarter and better as we secure America's transportation system."

The TSA memo proposes to minimize the number of passengers who must be patted down at checkpoints. It also recommends that certain categories of passengers be exempt from airport security screening, such as members of Congress, airline pilots, Cabinet members, state governors, federal judges, high-ranking military officers and people with top-secret security clearances.

The proposal also would allow ice picks, throwing stars and bows and arrows on flights. Allowing those items was suggested after a risk evaluation was conducted about which items posed the most danger.

If approved, only passengers who set off walk-through metal detectors or are flagged by a computer screening system will have to remove their shoes at security checkpoints. The proposal also would give security screeners the discretion to ask certain passengers "presenting reasonably suspicious behavior or threat characteristics" to remove their shoes.

The proposal also would give screeners discretion in determining whether to pat down passengers. For example, screeners would not have to pat down "those persons whose outermost garments closely conform to the natural contour of the body."

The memo also calls for a new formula to replace the set of computer-screening rules that select passengers for more scrutiny. Currently, the system commonly flags passengers who book one-way tickets or modify travel plans at the last minute. The new TSA plan would give TSA managers assigned to each major airport the authority to de-select a passenger who has been picked out by a computer system.

Some security analysts praised the agency's proposal, saying that security screeners spend too much time trying to find nail scissors and not enough time focused on today's biggest threat: a suicide bomber boarding an airplane. The TSA has very limited capability to detect explosives under a person's clothing, for example, and is trying to roll out more high-tech machines that can protect against such threats.

K. Jack Riley, a homeland security expert at Rand Corp., said hardened cockpit doors, air marshals and stronger public vigilance will prevent another 9/11-style hijacking. "Frankly, the preeminent security challenge at this point is keeping explosives off the airplane," Riley said. The TSA's ideas, he said, "recognize the reality that we know that air transportation security has changed post-9/11. Most of these rules don't contribute to security."

Douglas R. Laird, former head of security for Northwest Airlines, said the proposal was a step backward. Laird said exempting certain categories of passengers from security screening would be dangerous because trusted groups have occasionally abused the privilege. "In an effort to be customer friendly, they're forgetting that their primary requirement is to keep airplanes safe," Laird said. "Either you screen everybody or why screen anybody?"

© 2005 The Washington Post Company
 
flyboyaz
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RE: Airline Security Changes Planned

Sun Aug 14, 2005 1:37 am

Quoting Positiverate (Thread starter):
The proposal also would allow ice picks, throwing stars and bows and arrows on flights. Allowing those items was suggested after a risk evaluation was conducted about which items posed the most danger.

Say whatttt????
Catch a ride on a smile!
 
king
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RE: Airline Security Changes Planned

Sun Aug 14, 2005 1:50 am

It's about time. None of these "banned items" will bring down a plane. We must think smarter and invest in better technology. Explosives are our problem.

A person who is at the controls of so many lives should not be required to undergo screening. If we can't trust our crew members, then who can we trust?

We've wasted too much time and money so far. Kudos to the new head of the TSA for using some common sense!
 
jacobin777
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RE: Airline Security Changes Planned

Sun Aug 14, 2005 1:57 am

Quoting Positiverate (Thread starter):
K. Jack Riley, a homeland security expert at Rand Corp., said hardened cockpit doors, air marshals and stronger public vigilance will prevent another 9/11-style hijacking. "Frankly, the preeminent security challenge at this point is keeping explosives off the airplane," Riley said. The TSA's ideas, he said, "recognize the reality that we know that air transportation security has changed post-9/11. Most of these rules don't contribute to security."

nice to know somebody understands something..as King stated, its more important to screen for explosives as opposed to knives and what not (not that those aren't important either)..

firearms and explosives should be the two most important things to screen for.
"Up the Irons!"
 
OPNLguy
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RE: Airline Security Changes Planned

Sun Aug 14, 2005 4:00 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 3):
firearms and explosives should be the two most important things to screen for.

Yes, but -not- to the exclusion of other items that could be used to stab people.

I guess they've seem to have forgotten that the 9/11 hijackers used box cutters (then permissible) to kill people. Ice picks, scissors, razor blades and knives less than five inches long are still fully capable of doing so, should someone have evil intent. Yes, cockpit doors are lots tougher, and passengers would much more likely beat the crap out of someone, but the point remains that someone could unnecessarily get hurt.

"Those who do now remember the past are condemned to repeat it..."

[Edited 2005-08-13 21:19:57]
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
king
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RE: Airline Security Changes Planned

Sun Aug 14, 2005 4:09 am

The question is will these sharp objects gain access to a cockpit? Pre 9/11 the answer was maybe. Now, with what we know and new training the answer is no. Could these sharp objects hurt someone? Of course, and no one disputes that. No one is forgetting the past, but do not rewrite history.
 
OPNLguy
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RE: Airline Security Changes Planned

Sun Aug 14, 2005 4:19 am

Quoting King (Reply 5):
Could these sharp objects hurt someone? Of course, and no one disputes that. No one is forgetting the past, but do not rewrite history.

How am I rewriting history?
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Airline Security Changes Planned

Sun Aug 14, 2005 4:28 am

Quoting Positiverate (Thread starter):

Some security analysts praised the agency's proposal, saying that security screeners spend too much time trying to find nail scissors and not enough time focused on today's biggest threat: a suicide bomber boarding an airplane. The TSA has very limited capability to detect explosives under a person's clothing, for example, and is trying to roll out more high-tech machines that can protect against such threats.

Amen to that.

Quoting Positiverate (Thread starter):

Douglas R. Laird, former head of security for Northwest Airlines, said the proposal was a step backward. Laird said exempting certain categories of passengers from security screening would be dangerous because trusted groups have occasionally abused the privilege. "

As usual, it's gonna be a question of balance.

Quoting King (Reply 2):

A person who is at the controls of so many lives should not be required to undergo screening. If we can't trust our crew members, then who can we trust?

Hmmm. There have been plenty of incidents of people dressing up as crew members complete with ID.

Quoting King (Reply 5):
The question is will these sharp objects gain access to a cockpit? Pre 9/11 the answer was maybe. Now, with what we know and new training the answer is no. Could these sharp objects hurt someone? Of course, and no one disputes that. No one is forgetting the past, but do not rewrite history.

Indeed. And when besides you can use quite a lot of stuff to hurt people, such as a titanium laptop. But the laptop won't help you bash through a cockpit door.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
 
lincoln
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RE: Airline Security Changes Planned

Sun Aug 14, 2005 4:29 am

Quoting Positiverate (Thread starter):
It also recommends that certain categories of passengers be exempt from airport security screening, such as members of Congress, airline pilots, Cabinet members, state governors, federal judges, high-ranking military officers and people with top-secret security clearances.



Quoting Positiverate (Thread starter):
The proposal also would allow ice picks, throwing stars and bows and arrows on flights.

These are the only two points I disagree with, and granted the later is more of a gut feeling than one I can come up with a rational basis for disagreeing with (I just wouldn't feel comfortable seeing someone carry a bow and arrow onto a flight, period. Even if it wouldn't bring the flight down. (Curiously, I don't have the same reaction about knives and scissors-- perhaps because they can't as easially be launched/cause harm from a far distance).

The first one, though... PSA's last incident (after being purchased by US Airways) was the result of a former employee who still had his ID being allowed to bypass security with a gun. It really would not be that hard to impersonate a pilot if you were sufficiently motivated and had access to a few basic resources. I don't trust my politicians to do their job... why should I trust them not to "accidentally" bring something they shouldn't on board. (I don't have as strong an objection to the "High Ranking Military" or "Those with top secret clearences"... except for the impersonation possibility)

Lincoln
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Airline Security Changes Planned

Sun Aug 14, 2005 4:36 am

Seeing is believing - when I see it I'll believe it.

I have no problem prohibiting knives (of any length), etc. But this whole removing the shoes thing? The ridiculous crap with lighters?

Quoting King (Reply 2):
None of these "banned items" will bring down a plane

King . . . none of the banned items in and of themselves will bring down a plane, but apply a box cutter or a 4" bladed pocket knife or a decent Mont Blanc writing instrument with the proper technique and the plane will ultimately bring itself down sans living crew members. That said, there must remain an aire of concern, but not to the degree of lunacy we currently have. Of course, common sense should play a part in this as well, alas, we are talking about the TSA are we not? So that point is moot.

As regards your question . . .

Quoting King (Reply 5):
The question is will these sharp objects gain access to a cockpit?

Likely not, but I wouldn't want a bloodbath in the cabin either.

Fortunately, that would be limited I'm sure by the passengers taking steps to prevent same. I can't imagine anyone just sitting on their asses these days. I would not have done so pre 9/11 and I'm sure post 9/11 most passengers won't again.

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 4):
"Those who do now remember the past are condemned to repeat it..."

now or not?? Those who do noT remember the past . . . . .
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
king
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RE: Airline Security Changes Planned

Sun Aug 14, 2005 4:42 am

Don't forget that many pilots are armed now, and don't forget that no crewmembers may board an aircraft until their ID's have been verified by airline ground personnel.

Sharp objects are bad all around, but we are talking about one form of transportation. Harm is done to many people every day in this world with sharp objects.

Will sharp objects cause another 9/11? No. Sharp objects allowed access to cockpits, but we won't make that mistake again.

Cargo and explosive detection systems is where we need to focus.
 
jacobin777
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RE: Airline Security Changes Planned

Sun Aug 14, 2005 4:44 am

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 4):
Yes, but -not- to the exclusion of other items that could be used to stab people.



Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 3):
, its more important to screen for explosives as opposed to knives and what not (not that those aren't important either)..

notice what my comment included.. Wink
"Up the Irons!"
 
Mir
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RE: Airline Security Changes Planned

Sun Aug 14, 2005 11:24 am

While there are several good ideas coming out of there, there are more than a few that leave me seriously scratching my head.

Quoting Positiverate (Thread starter):
The staff's first set of recommendations, detailed in an Aug. 5 document, includes proposals to lift the ban on various carry-on items such as scissors, razor blades and knives less than five inches long.

Knives? Correct me if I'm wrong, but one of the main reasons that the 9/11 hijackings were able to happen is because knives with blades less than five inches were allowed on board. Is it really a good idea to let these things back on board? Methinks not.

Quoting Positiverate (Thread starter):
The TSA memo proposes to minimize the number of passengers who must be patted down at checkpoints. It also recommends that certain categories of passengers be exempt from airport security screening, such as members of Congress, airline pilots, Cabinet members, state governors, federal judges, high-ranking military officers and people with top-secret security clearances.

Anyone ever see "Catch Me If You Can"? Or remember a certain Egyptair flight? Or the guy who shot someone in New York's City Hall because he was able to bypass security by virtue of being a guest of a city councilmember? This is just asking for trouble.

Quoting Positiverate (Thread starter):
The proposal also would allow ice picks, throwing stars and bows and arrows on flights.

EXCUSE ME?!?!?!?!?!? Am I the only one who thinks that ice picks, bows and arrows, and throwing stars have absolutely no place on planes? Is the TSA now employing ninjas as air marshalls? What the hell are they thinking? I really would like someone to explain this one to me. New plot for a crapilly-made scary movie: 150 people trapped inside a metal tube with a crazy guy wielding an icepick.

It is no secret that the TSA is horribly inefficient, but as far as I'm concerned the answer is not to cut down on the number of things that they have to get off of their stools to deal with. I have an out-of-left-field idea that the bigwigs at the DHS and the TSA might want to consider: BETTER TRAINING SO THAT THEY CAN BE MORE EFFICIENT. Do that, and provide the ability for passengers to mail things to themselves if they have prohibited items (charge the heck out of them to do it, but the option should be open). I think that might go a long way.

Because I see these changes as a step backwards.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
AsstChiefMark
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RE: Airline Security Changes Planned

Sun Aug 14, 2005 11:45 am

Who the hell needs to carry ice picks, throwing stars, and a bow (with arrows, no less) onboard? Are there ninjas who need to bartend while deer hunting on an airplane?

Makes as much sense as me bringing a set of horseshoes onboard...just in case there's a horse that needs a hoof job.

Mark
Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Damned MSP...Red tail...Red tail
 
FLAIRPORT
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RE: Airline Security Changes Planned

Sun Aug 14, 2005 11:53 am

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 13):
Are there ninjas who need to bartend while deer hunting on an airplane?

Yes  Silly
NEXT FLIGHT: FLL-ATL-HPN on FL
 
Mir
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RE: Airline Security Changes Planned

Sun Aug 14, 2005 1:57 pm

Hmm, Ninja Archer Mountaineers....

One could have an anime series with that.  silly 

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
ckfred
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RE: Airline Security Changes Planned

Sun Aug 14, 2005 4:05 pm

Overall, I think the proposal is good. It will speed security and make people feel less like perps being frisked before being taken into custody.

I do have a concern about some of the items being allowed back into the cabin, such as throwing stars, ice picks, etc. Forget the fact that the hijackers on September 11th used box cutters. If a mentally unstable person boards a flight with these items, he could a lot of people before being subdued.

I also think the list of people being exempt from screening is too expansive. Allowing pilots, high-level millitary people, and people with high security clearnaces seems reasonable, especially since IDs are becoming more high tech. But it seems to me that members of Congress, judges, and other elected officials should still be subject to screening. If they don't have to deal with security, how will they understand the complaints fromt the flying public.

There are some ideas missing from the proposed changes. First is a trusted traveler program. If passengers are willing to submit to substantial background checks, in order to avoid some of the highest levels of screening, it will allow screeners to focus on a smaller group of travelers.

Second is the requirement that people have to remove all coats, sweaters, etc. Now, I can see asking people to remove parkas, overcoats, fur coats and other heavy coats. I know that my wool overcoat will keep my fountain pen from setting off metal detectors. But it seems silly to make people take off windbreakers, suit coats and blazers, sweaters, and sweatshirts, and it does slow lines.

Third is the requirement that laptops have to come out of bags. I travel with a lot of electronic devices, including cell phone, PDA, and shaver, and I don't have to remove them from my carry-on. In fact, some government buildings require that visitors turn on all electronic devices at checkpoints. Granted, a laptop is bigger, but an x-ray machine should be capable of seeing through most briefcases and bags.

Fourth is the annoyance at some airports that passengers have to produce ID and boarding pass after going through the metal detectors. This has happened to me at ATL and LGA. If I couldn't get into the security line without my ID, why should I have to show it a second time?

Fifth is the silly requirment that passengers can't agree to pat downs by screeners of the opposite sex. Now, my wife prefers pat downs by women. That's fine, and it should be her right to have a woman pat her down. I personally don't care. What took the cake once was that my wife, while carrying our 6-month-old son, set off the metal detector. The screeners at ATL went nuts trying to find a man to pat down our son. They wouldn't hear of a woman patting him down. Considering that his mother, his grandmothers, a number of nurses, and several babysitters have seen him naked, I don't see the harm in a woman patting him down.

Sixth, checkpoints should have signs indicating which x-ray machines can or can't accept oversized articles. I once had a screener try to stuff my son's stroller into the x-ray machine. It wouldn't fit, so I had to go to the end of another line. A sign would have been handy.

Seventh, checkpoints ought to have express lanes, such as lines that have only the personal item (briefcase or purse) and no laptop. If a person knows how to fly without lugging everything into the cabin, he should be able to get through the checkpoint faster.
 
Stealthz
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RE: Airline Security Changes Planned

Sun Aug 14, 2005 8:58 pm

Quote:
Third is the requirement that laptops have to come out of bags

I have no problem with this (except when I forget to take my laptop out of the bag). Most quality laptops have a chassis plate that is opaque to xrays thus rendering the xray useless, with it on it's own in a tray a realistic evaluation can be made of your other contents.

As for allowing star knives, ice picks and bows(with arrows) in the cabin.. that is just crazy... what justification is there for that madness??

Chris
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
 
TonyBurr
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RE: Airline Security Changes Planned

Sun Aug 14, 2005 8:59 pm

Naturally member of Congress would be exempt. They can make the rules, but not follow them. So they would not have to wait on the lines they helped to create?
 
phollingsworth
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RE: Airline Security Changes Planned

Sun Aug 14, 2005 11:48 pm

Quoting TonyBurr (Reply 18):
Naturally member of Congress would be exempt. They can make the rules, but not follow them. So they would not have to wait on the lines they helped to create?

One of the interesting side effects of the separation of powers is that it limits what the executive branch (TSA et al.) can do to members of Congress, especially when Congress is in session. Remember, by virtue of getting oneself elected to congress one has full access to all classified information, no need for a security clearance. The executive branch does a lot to attempt to limit access, but they cannot legally prevent it.

Of all of the ideas, this one makes no sense.

Quoting Positiverate (Thread starter):
. It also recommends that certain categories of passengers be exempt from airport security screening...people with top-secret security clearances

First why is it only top-secret, what about people with secret and confidential clearances? Does the polygraph requirement have something to do with this? Also, by using this privilege one is effectively advertising their security clearance status, which you really are not supposed to do.

WRT short knives, razor blades, etc. Yes box cutters (razor blades) were the primary weapons of 9/11/01. However, the real enabler was the training that the flight crews had received. Given the basic inability of screening to stop these items with any regularity, might there not be a better use of resources. Screening is an expensive undertaking, and the scarce resources should be spent on the cost effective approaches with real benefits. Use real correlations when screening people, not a random or poorly regressed bases.

The biggest problem with the TSA today is the complete arbitrarily of bases for increased search stringency, e.g., why do some agents require people with flip-flops to remove them, while others let fully closes low cut shoes through. That and most of the screeners fail to recognize that the current batch of magnetometers indicated where in the vertical plain the metal is.

P.S. The best remark from a security screener I ever had, was "... airports are more secure than the CIA." This was after I attempted to point out that is was my shoes that set the magnetometer off and that I would be happy to remove them (I hadn't worn them the previous day but they has set off magnetometers twice that day, and only the TSA was overly concerned). He wanted to have me "wanded" and further searched.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Airline Security Changes Planned

Mon Aug 15, 2005 1:07 am

Quoting Ckfred (Reply 16):
Fourth is the annoyance at some airports that passengers have to produce ID and boarding pass after going through the metal detectors. This has happened to me at ATL and LGA. If I couldn't get into the security line without my ID, why should I have to show it a second time?

It's a double check. A person checking 1000s of people can easily make a mistake. 2 people, independent of each other, are very unlikely to make the same mistake.

Quoting Ckfred (Reply 16):

Fifth is the silly requirment that passengers can't agree to pat downs by screeners of the opposite sex. Now, my wife prefers pat downs by women. That's fine, and it should be her right to have a woman pat her down. I personally don't care. What took the cake once was that my wife, while carrying our 6-month-old son, set off the metal detector. The screeners at ATL went nuts trying to find a man to pat down our son. They wouldn't hear of a woman patting him down. Considering that his mother, his grandmothers, a number of nurses, and several babysitters have seen him naked, I don't see the harm in a woman patting him down.

My wife and I couldn't care less who searches us. I guess we're not very concerned with this kind of thing. But I realize that for many people, especially in the US, this is a big deal. As for the kid, that story is just hilarious.

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 17):

I have no problem with this (except when I forget to take my laptop out of the bag). Most quality laptops have a chassis plate that is opaque to xrays thus rendering the xray useless, with it on it's own in a tray a realistic evaluation can be made of your other contents.

What always makes me wonder is why the only place I have to take my laptop out is the US. Do the European screeners know something the Americans don't?
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
 
lincoln
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RE: Airline Security Changes Planned

Mon Aug 15, 2005 1:36 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 20):
What always makes me wonder is why the only place I have to take my laptop out is the US. Do the European screeners know something the Americans don't?

Ahh.... The memories... I remember when I was flying 7-10 years ago with my laptop and in most airports it could stay in its bag, but in some it had to come out (and even be turned on!)... I remember connecting at LAX (Skywest SAN-LAX to Skywest LAX-FAT as UA coded on an EMB-120... Actually, I think it may have been same plane service).

At the time they were doing some minor renovations in the terminal and one of the things that the "Pardon our Dust" signs promised was new X-Ray machines so it would no longer be necessary to remove laptops from their cases. How times have changed...

[If the problem is the "base plate" in laptops... what good does taking it out of the case do? Why not make us turn it on like the "good old days?"]

I also long for the days when unticketed people are allowed past security again...

Lincoln
CO Is My Airline of Choice || Baggage Claim is an airline's last chance to disappoint a customer || Next flts in profile
 
ckfred
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RE: Airline Security Changes Planned

Mon Aug 15, 2005 3:31 am

Starlionblue:

I understand it's a double check, but my problem is a) it's hit and miss. Why do they do it sometimes at ATL and LGA, but never at ORD, and b) the screener gets all huffy when I tell him I need to retrieve my coat and wallet, because I have put away my driver's license and boarding pass. I know some people just fold up their passes and tuck them and their licenses in a pocket.
I don't. Folding a pass makes it harder for the scanner at the gate to read, and I once lost my driver's license, when I didn't put it back in my wallet.

At ORD, the people at the security entrance do a pretty thorough review of documents. My wife renewed her license via the telephone, so the expiration date is a sticker on the back of the license. They are always questioning her as to why she is trying to use an expired license.
 
boeing 747-311
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RE: Airline Security Changes Planned

Mon Aug 15, 2005 4:42 am

Quoting Lincoln (Reply 21):

I also long for the days when unticketed people are allowed past security again...

I think that has to do with how long the lines are. imagine if there are tons more people trying to go threw the security lines and they are not even boarding the plane...
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Stealthz
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RE: Airline Security Changes Planned

Mon Aug 15, 2005 8:43 am

Quote:
What always makes me wonder is why the only place I have to take my laptop out is the US. Do the European screeners know something the Americans don't?

Have to do it in Australia as well... there was a time when they made you take out the batteries as well!!

Quote:
[If the problem is the "base plate" in laptops... what good does taking it out of the case do? Why not make us turn it on like the "good old days?"]

The problem with the baseplate is it obscures everything else in your bag, turning it on may have been an option when laptops were rare, now almost everybody has one could you imagine what turning them all on would do to the delay at screening? As well as juggling your other belongings and handling all the "no network found", "work offline" type messages!!!

Regards

Chris
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
 
tsaord
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RE: Airline Security Changes Planned

Mon Aug 15, 2005 11:54 am

disclaimer: these are the opinions of the "individual" poster!

first let me say, there was this guy a while back, i forgot his name, he tried to set off an explosive in his shoes. and some people dont understand why we ask for them to remove there shoes for xray?

if the government feels we arent that capable of decting explosives, then they better give the people who bust their butts everyday for 6-12 hours some better training and better equipment and the money for it or get rid of the agency and just let passengers board the planes without any form of screening! we get recertified every so often, like every 6 months. and people who cant cut the mustard are let go by the agency. they wanted federal screeners, then the department of homeland security needs to make sure they are doing everything in their power to make sure it's screeners are HIGHLY TRAINED to do the job! i guess the bull they told us that the reason we take knives(sp), sissiors with pointed tips, and razors was to prevent people from using them to attack other passengers, in the event someone tried to do that. not to bring down an aircraft, but to make sure passengers were not harmed by another passenger.

anything to make the tsa better at it's duties is a welcome and should happen! but the policies of the tsa are not made by the people who wear the sceener uniforms!

but it goes both ways. you have some tsa people who are just having a bad day or are not people friendly, and on the other side you have passengers who act like they are above any type of screening! and catch attitudes! or claim they dont understand why we do certain things! its all for security and their own safety! security is the upmost concern, and if some people think the tsa just makes them do things at the checkpoint just to do it, they need a clue!

tsa is just about 3 years old! and yes there are growing pains! and you have passengers who are just a-holes! but everyone must work together to make sure SECURITY and PASSENGER/CREW safety is still of the upmost importance when boarding an aircraft! because you never know when some dumb person might want to do something stupid! and terrorism, in my opinion, has no color!

airline security should be just that. security! why make conssesions for certain people because of their status?
there are icons, then there are legends, then there is rick flair
 
L-188
Posts: 29874
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Airline Security Changes Planned

Mon Aug 15, 2005 12:18 pm

This move is overdue and just a drop in the bucket.

The bigger issue is getting rid of the TSA in it's entirety and put the job of security back in the hands of the airlines where it belongs. It is not debated that security did not allow a single prohibited item on any 9/11 aircraft.

As far as knifes, it wasn't the boxcutters that crashed the airplane, it was the fact that passengers and aircrews where taught not to fight back but rather to submit to the demmands.....the exact same advice that we used to give women if they where getting raped.

The change in thinking is what will prevent another 9/11, morons from the TSA taking away knifes, nail clippers, sewing needles, scissors, audi and volkswagon keys and Medal of Honor's won't.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
L-188
Posts: 29874
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Airline Security Changes Planned

Mon Aug 15, 2005 12:24 pm

Quoting TonyBurr (Reply 18):
Naturally member of Congress would be exempt. They can make the rules, but not follow them. So they would not have to wait on the lines they helped to create?

Agreed, they should have to live like the common man.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: Airline Security Changes Planned

Mon Aug 15, 2005 12:55 pm

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 4):
I guess they've seem to have forgotten that the 9/11 hijackers used box cutters (then permissible) to kill people. Ice picks, scissors, razor blades and knives less than five inches long are still fully capable of doing so, should someone have evil intent. Yes, cockpit doors are lots tougher, and passengers would much more likely beat the crap out of someone, but the point remains that someone could unnecessarily get hurt.

The 9/11 hijackers could have suceeded using ballpoint pens. They succeeded because prior to 9/11, all US airline pilots were under orders not to resist a hijacking attempt, because before then, most all hijackings didn't end in tragedy.

My brother is an airline pilot. He said any of the 9/11 flight crews could have easily resisted - every cockpit has an emergency egress axe - an item that is more than a match for a box cutter.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: Airline Security Changes Planned

Mon Aug 15, 2005 12:58 pm

Quoting King (Reply 10):
Will sharp objects cause another 9/11? No. Sharp objects allowed access to cockpits, but we won't make that mistake again.

Cargo and explosive detection systems is where we need to focus.

King is entirely correct. Under the wing security remains the weak spot of aviation security.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
tsaord
Posts: 1267
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2005 2:46 pm

RE: Airline Security Changes Planned

Mon Aug 15, 2005 1:08 pm

Quoting L-188 (Reply 26):
morons from the TSA taking away knifes, nail clippers, sewing needles, scissors, audi and volkswagon keys and Medal of Honor's won't

well us morons didnt decide to take over security at americas airports. nor do the morons who screen passengers and baggage daily make any of the screening procedures.
there are icons, then there are legends, then there is rick flair
 
L-188
Posts: 29874
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Airline Security Changes Planned

Mon Aug 15, 2005 1:11 pm

Dammit, Tsaord...I keep forgeting that you are working for them.

Nothing personal, you are correct that you don't write the procedures, but an old Jedi Master once said, "Who is the more foolish, the fool or the fool who follows him."
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
tsaord
Posts: 1267
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2005 2:46 pm

RE: Airline Security Changes Planned

Mon Aug 15, 2005 1:51 pm

well...then i guess there are thousands of fools who work for the tsa..since its a paying job.

and nothing personal should be taken on here! we all from different walks of life with different opinions!  Big grin
there are icons, then there are legends, then there is rick flair
 
cloudy
Posts: 1613
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2002 3:23 pm

RE: Airline Security Changes Planned

Mon Aug 15, 2005 2:25 pm

My brother is an airline pilot. He said any of the 9/11 flight crews could have easily resisted - every cockpit has an emergency egress axe - an item that is more than a match for a box cutter.
---
You are correct. The 9-11 attack worked because it was different from previous hijackings. Unless the crew had KNOWN, not just suspected, that this was a new kind of attack, they would have had little choice but to act exactly as they did.

The hijackers claimed to have other weapons, like bombs and grenades. There was no way to prove them wrong. They believed that resistance could result in the deaths of all aboard. The hijackers had already demonstrated that they could and would kill. There were 4-5 hijackers on each plane. Even if the crew could have gotten the ones who were attacking the pilots, there were plenty of others to kill passengers or set off a bomb. Resistance would have been a very high risk action.

On the other hand, experience up to that point had shown that the vast majority of hijackings could be resolved with little further bloodshed if all parties just showed patience and waited for trained negotiators, etc. to respond. This is why aircraft crew up to that time were trained not to resist most hijacking attempts. Before 9-11, most hijacks were done by lone nut-jobs. The vast majority were caught before boarding the aircraft. Those that did board and make their threats eventually calmed down and surrendered. Deaths or serious injuries were pretty rare. Even those that were conducted by terrorist organizations usually ended with most victims unharmed. Significant casualties from hijacking became more rare as time went by, after the initial spate of hijackings in the 70's and 80's.

There were several instances of hijackers who planned to use a plane as a weapon, before 9-11. They intended to force the pilot(without telling him their intentions) to fly over the target and then kill the pilot and crash the plane at the last minute. However, none of these involved the hijackers actually wanting to fly the plane themselves. When the hijackers killed the pilots with boxcutters, the pilots probably thought that they were just going to get instructions backed by a nasty threat. That is what had happened every time before. There was no reason to suspect that this time was different.

IN SHORT.... The 9-11 crews followed their training, which was based on experience up to that time. There was no reason to suppose that this hijacking was fundamentally different from all the others that had come before. Their action was entirely rational under the circumstances.

[Edited 2005-08-15 07:32:50]
 
contrails
Posts: 1310
Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2000 11:53 pm

RE: Airline Security Changes Planned

Wed Aug 17, 2005 9:08 pm

I think some people may have missed the point with this proposal. TSA now says that it's ok to bring these items onboard, because the planes now have cockpit doors and air marshalls onboard. That really concerns me.

IMO, TSA seems to be saying that their objective is to protect the plane, but the pax are expendable. As long as the plane can be saved it's ok, even if a dozen or a hundred pax are dead. As a frequent flyer I find this thinking revolting.

I have contacted my congressional delegation to express my outrage at this change, and I urge everyone else to do so. I also intend to contact TSA today. I'm not sure that it will matter, but I do intend to state my strenous objections.

I guess in the final analysis our safety is in our hands. If this very unwise proposal goes through maybe all pax should carry knives so we can have something to fight back with, should it be necessary.
Flying Colors Forever!