aviationwiz
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Everyone Thinks It's Terrorism Now

Mon Aug 15, 2005 7:14 am

I'm really annoyed by the media, and even people in general, about how whenever there is a crash, everyone jumps on saying that it was due to terrorism. In all cases, it most likely is *NOT* due to terrorism, but just human error, mechanical, technical problems, and what not. Anyone else find it ridiculous that when we hear about this, it always sounds like:

"A plane in *country name* today crashed with *number* people aboard. Experts have ruled out the possibility of terrorism."

Give me some real information, not that terrorism was ruled out!
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Lumberton
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RE: Everyone Thinks It's Terrorism Now

Mon Aug 15, 2005 7:18 am

Quoting Aviationwiz (Thread starter):
I'm really annoyed by the media, and even people in general, about how whenever there is a crash, everyone jumps on saying that it was due to terrorism.

Who is saying this about what incident?
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
AirRyan
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RE: Everyone Thinks It's Terrorism Now

Mon Aug 15, 2005 7:21 am

Until the facts are reported from a full investigation many months down the road, you are right in that terrorism in some form or fashion simply like anything else to include an alien air-air kill cannot be ruled out.  Smile
 
DeC
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RE: Everyone Thinks It's Terrorism Now

Mon Aug 15, 2005 7:39 am

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 2):

Who is saying this about what incident?

The media in Cyprus were telling this in the first reports about the accident, midday, just because the crews of the F-16's that followed the Helios Airways B737 before its crash, reported that they saw someone with mask on, in the cockpit (probably a crew member with an oxygen mask), were the unconscious co-pilot laid. After some time and after driving people mad with stupid terrorism speculations, they contradicted their previous comments as being not-valid in the end.  Yeah sure

All this is a result of the worldwide terror, being preserved and fueled by the media all over the world if you ask me. We are afraid of our own shadows…
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AsstChiefMark
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RE: Everyone Thinks It's Terrorism Now

Mon Aug 15, 2005 7:47 am

MSNBC, CNN, Fox News...they mention the "T" word too quickly and get people all excited. A truck crashes on the freeway and one of the first things they say is, "It's undetermined if this was an act of terrorism." It's a good, old-fashioned crash for God's sake.

What next? Paris Hilton trips over her rat dog and skins her knobby knee. "We're not sure if it's an act of terrorism. The Department of Homeland Security could not be reached for comment."

Mark
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hz747300
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RE: Everyone Thinks It's Terrorism Now

Mon Aug 15, 2005 8:04 am

Actually, the first report I heard the word was only mentioned as an unlikely cause. In this case it was CNN Interntional--I think now the reactionaries are the over-reactors and the media was the sane ones. In fact, there were more immediate comparisons right away to the Payne Stewart corporate jet crash--but then again, other than CNN, most of my sources for news were Australian.

Let me add that the US too is the only nation to experience horrific deliberate air crashes as a result of terrorism in an event that shook the nation to its core. If the media jumps the gun now and then, I will allow it--for most people, especially those working downtown in NYC--air crashes will always immediately be linked to terrorism first, everything else second.

In Sri Lanka the Tamil Tigers blew up the planes while they were empty. In the 70's, Palestinians emptied the planes then blew them up with grenades. While great images for TV, in terms of impact on humanity, they were a lot less harmful.
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AlitaliaMD11
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RE: Everyone Thinks It's Terrorism Now

Mon Aug 15, 2005 8:23 am

I feel the same way.

When AF358 crashed the media said that "terrorism has been ruled out" and they said the same thing today with the Helios crash.
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David L
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RE: Everyone Thinks It's Terrorism Now

Mon Aug 15, 2005 8:39 am

I agree but the first mention I heard of terrorism in the Helios crash was here! Every time there's an accident, there are always those who devise a theory then try to get the facts to fit it - terrorism happens to be the "in" thing. OK, there could be all sorts of reasons but doesn't it make sense to start with the most likely causes?
 
xr8FordGirl
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RE: Everyone Thinks It's Terrorism Now

Mon Aug 15, 2005 8:57 am

"What next? Paris Hilton trips over her rat dog and skins her knobby knee. "We're not sure if it's an act of terrorism. The Department of Homeland Security could not be reached for comment."

LOL AsstchiefMark.


The whole "T" thining is rediculous now with the media claiming it's terrorism everytime there's a problem. It's like it's the new scapegoat for everything from Paris Hiltons continued existence to Tom Cruise making any more films.(which may well be true)

It's one thing to start with and remove the most likely causes and to a degree I can understand that need because it's logical but that's for the investigators to determine. It's the media that constantly scream the "T" word evertime something happens that is getting rediculous.
 
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JBo
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RE: Everyone Thinks It's Terrorism Now

Mon Aug 15, 2005 9:10 am

The media feels like they constantly need to "reassure" us that these aircraft incidents aren't terror-related. Why? Either they think we're still "paranoid" or they're trying to keep us "paranoid" so we still keep drinking the terror paranoia Kool-Aid

Yes, terror is just a threat here as everywhere else, but there's no point in being paranoid about it. Accept it and move on.

To the media: If it wasn't terror related, then don't mention it.
I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day.
 
David L
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RE: Everyone Thinks It's Terrorism Now

Mon Aug 15, 2005 9:15 am

Quoting Xr8FordGirl (Reply 8):
It's the media that constantly scream the "T" word evertime something happens

And some people here - it happened with the Air France crash in Toronto, too, and then we get the claims that it's everyone's right to discuss all possibilities without anyone labelling their claims as outrageous. Ah, the internet - can't live with it, can't live without it!
 
ZakHH
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RE: Everyone Thinks It's Terrorism Now

Mon Aug 15, 2005 9:16 am

Terrorism sells. As mentioned earlier, the newslady on German news channel "n24" knew for sure that a technical background could be ruled out and the only possible explanation was that someone entered the cockpit and killed the pilots. Brilliant, I would say.

But not only playing the "T"-card is what annoys me, also the constant mentioning of the absence of a terroristic background for every sack of rice that is dropped in China. I really wonder when the first weatherman will tell us that there is no evidence for a terroristic background behind our rainy summer this year...  banghead 
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David L
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RE: Everyone Thinks It's Terrorism Now

Mon Aug 15, 2005 9:41 am

Terrorism has not been ruled out as a cause of this reply.

[Edited 2005-08-15 02:55:43]
 
xr8FordGirl
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RE: Everyone Thinks It's Terrorism Now

Mon Aug 15, 2005 10:08 am

I always thought Englands rainy summers were suspicious  eyebrow   silly  it's a terrorist plot to disrupt the organised loafing.....*whipsers* Australia really doen't like loosing the Ashes you see*

The problem is it's getting to rediculous proportions and you know it's getting that way when they initally suggested Columbia may have been terrorist related as opposed to the really obvious foam block that came off during the launch, but suggested it was by the print media certainly. Not sure if it made it to tv but I wouldn't be surprised.

What better way to keep the western world as paranoid as possible than to constantly spread fear and the news (which is more like entertainment these days anyway) push the proaganda by screming the "T" word everytime a car craches.
 
David L
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RE: Everyone Thinks It's Terrorism Now

Mon Aug 15, 2005 10:16 am

Quoting Xr8FordGirl (Reply 13):
they initally suggested Columbia may have been terrorist related

It was mentioned in TV reports, too. I'd forgotten about that - good point!
 
Sonic99
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RE: Everyone Thinks It's Terrorism Now

Mon Aug 15, 2005 11:47 am

Like all private companies that seek to make money, U.S. media outlet (and particularly those in the U.S.) newsreaders (and writers) tend to use the term "terrorism" as a certain way to attract attention to their network.

In short - and this part really bugs me, but it's true - sensationalism sells ... period. News coverage lacks real news but is filled with useless potentiality of disaster and catastrophic events, either made up (as in the above claim of "possible terrorist threat") or tailored to sell the network to the public. Instead of showing real news about real events of the world most networks just satisfy themselves by producing "special reports" on "what you didn't know" like one of a million different ways someone can get hurt...

Pfff.... It's all rather pathetic. Those who really suffer are the regular folk that are getting too wound up by constant reminders of "potential threats".
 
MD80Nut
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RE: Everyone Thinks It's Terrorism Now

Mon Aug 15, 2005 1:53 pm

The reality is that the great majority of private and commercial aircraft that are lost are lost for reasons other than terrorism. Still, those relatively few caused by terrorism have been rather spectacular events, 9/11 being the most spectacular and tragic. A terrorist act injects all kind complicating factors beyond aviation. Outrage at the perpetrators, political considerations, the stories of why they did it, how they did it, the response to terrorism, etc., etc. It's a lot bigger story, a much more significant event all around than a crash for aviation related reasons like weather, technical failure and/or human error.

Given all that, it's not surprising at all they're so quick to mention terrorism, even if it's just to dismiss it in that case.

Cheers, Ralph
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spacecadet
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RE: Everyone Thinks It's Terrorism Now

Mon Aug 15, 2005 2:13 pm

The reality is that the great majority of private and commercial aircraft that are lost are lost for reasons other than terrorism.

The reality is also that many of the airliner crashes that have occured have also been due to terrorism. In terms of accident causes, it is probably the single most frequent. Most other single causes of accidents have been eradicated through redundant safety mechanisms these days, so terrorism is naturally one of the first things you would look at to rule out. This is how investigations work - first you determine what *didn't* happen, then you work backwards. (Otherwise you are just following a whole bunch of false leads.) Singular causes of crashes are the easiest to rule in or out so terrorism is always among the first things mentioned.

I wouldn't say terrorism is anymore "in" with the news media these days than it ever has been. 9/11 was certainly not the first time terrorists have brought down a plane - terrorists and bombers have been blowing up planes (including over the United States) since at least the 1960's. Don't forget that just prior to 9/11, a plot was busted up that would have brought down ten airliners simultaneously around the world, just after 9/11 we had Richard Reid, and shortly after that we had two terrorist bombs simultaneously bring down a Tu-134 and a Tu-154 in Russia.

That's the unfortunate reality of the situation. If you don't want the media to focus on it, go out and convince all the terrorists in the world to knock it off and get some other hobby. I personally think it's a pretty good idea to tell the world that it *isn't* terrorism as soon as that's known, because otherwise you'll have continuous and endless speculation about whether it was or it wasn't.
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atmx2000
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RE: Everyone Thinks It's Terrorism Now

Mon Aug 15, 2005 3:23 pm

Quoting Spacecadet (Reply 17):
9/11 was certainly not the first time terrorists have brought down a plane - terrorists and bombers have been blowing up planes (including over the United States) since at least the 1960's.

No, but it was the first time where a civilian airliner was intentionally crashed into a skyscraper resulting in mass ground casulties.
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ha763
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RE: Everyone Thinks It's Terrorism Now

Mon Aug 15, 2005 3:27 pm

Quoting Spacecadet (Reply 17):
I wouldn't say terrorism is anymore "in" with the news media these days than it ever has been.

I agree. The media used to always use the 'b' word (bomb) to indicate terrorism whenever an airliner crashed. After Sept. 11, it changed simply to 'terrorism' because bombs are not the only thing terrorists can use to bring down an airliner.
 
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yowza
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RE: Everyone Thinks It's Terrorism Now

Mon Aug 15, 2005 3:31 pm

The American media (both left and right) love to hype up stories. Just as sex sells, fear sells. So for as long as people are afraid and as long as people keep paying attention to that ridiculous colour coded threat level monitor the producers at CNN, FOX and every other network are going to continue to use their favourite sentence "at this time terrorist involvement has not been ruled out."

BBC and the CBC are a little better but not by much.

YOWza
 
wingnut135
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RE: Everyone Thinks It's Terrorism Now

Mon Aug 15, 2005 4:11 pm

Terror is one way of group A keeping group B in control. The media, group A, does it to keep the public, group B, tuned in. If someone comes on the news stating a plane crashed in a country half way around the world, and that's it, most people would just shrug it off and change the channel. But if they throw the "T"-word in there, people will stay tuned to see what expert the network has called up and how much they can speculate from just looking at the picture on the screen. In most cases it's someone who hasn't been in the relevant field in some time, and all they do is toss out speculation bull sh*t until they forget what they were initially talking about. When AF358 crashed two of the big 3 news outlets had an expert on within minutes, and all either of them knew was that it was an airplane, and it was in a ditch off the runway in Toronto. Both of them kept spewing out bs, followed by more bs. "T"-word this, "T"-word that.

The media needs to be held accountable  liar , but then there's the First Amendment to get around. All we can do is switch off.

Wingnut
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philb
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RE: Everyone Thinks It's Terrorism Now

Mon Aug 15, 2005 4:16 pm

Quoting Spacecadet (Reply 17):
The reality is also that many of the airliner crashes that have occured have also been due to terrorism. In terms of accident causes, it is probably the single most frequent.

Are you Spacecadet or totally spaced out?

Do yourself (and us all) a favour.
First find a dictionary and look up the meaning of "many". Then look up the meaning of "frequent".

Armed with that information, go to http://www.airdisaster.com/cgi-bin/database.cgi

Spend the next few days checking out the cause of each accident listed since the start date of the database (1950).
You will need to open each accident date for a cause, so it will take you a while.

Do the math and detail how many fatal accidents there have been in the last 55 years and how many have been terrorist related (in numbers and as a percentage).

Then come back, start a new thread and apologise for typing the biggest pile of bullsh*t I've read here in a long time.
 
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yowza
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RE: Everyone Thinks It's Terrorism Now

Mon Aug 15, 2005 4:25 pm

Quoting Philb (Reply 22):
Are you Spacecadet or totally spaced out?

Do yourself (and us all) a favour.
First find a dictionary and look up the meaning of "many". Then look up the meaning of "frequent".

Armed with that information, go to http://www.airdisaster.com/cgi-bin/database.cgi

Spend the next few days checking out the cause of each accident listed since the start date of the database (1950).
You will need to open each accident date for a cause, so it will take you a while.

Do the math and detail how many fatal accidents there have been in the last 55 years and how many have been terrorist related (in numbers and as a percentage).

Then come back, start a new thread and apologise for typing the biggest pile of bullsh*t I've read here in a long time.

Now that's a world class telling off!

YOWza
 
pflueeb
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RE: Everyone Thinks It's Terrorism Now

Mon Aug 15, 2005 5:11 pm

As long as "some" Arabs pose a threat to the general population as we know it, terrorism will always (and should be) top-of-mind.
 
satx
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RE: Everyone Thinks It's Terrorism Now

Mon Aug 15, 2005 5:31 pm

Quoting Philb (Reply 22):
Then come back, start a new thread and apologise for typing the biggest pile of bullsh*t I've read here in a long time.

Priceless!  Big grin

Quoting Pflueeb (Reply 24):
As long as "some" Arabs pose a threat to the general population as we know it, terrorism will always (and should be) top-of-mind.

What on earth are you talking about? Go back to sleep.
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nudelhirsch
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RE: Everyone Thinks It's Terrorism Now

Mon Aug 15, 2005 5:35 pm

People wonder why the media keeps terrorism a top topic?

Here is the answer. I was zipping through channels, many hours after the crash, to see if there is some news on. There was, but not about the crash, it was about some moron who ate 18 grilled cheese sandwiches in a contest. That is headlines in the USA, can you believe that?
No wonder the media is "happy about potential terrorism" as there is something new to talk about.
When I watch the news on the so called "serious" networks, there is the eating contest, a runaway alligator in some meaningless part of Florida, and a Family whose kid got a transplant and survived severe illness.
If you go to Europe and watch the news there, they show what is happening in the world, as morbid as it may sound, but an airplane crash is almost relaxing between all those horrible war stories...
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xr8FordGirl
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RE: Everyone Thinks It's Terrorism Now

Mon Aug 15, 2005 5:47 pm

*applauds Philb*

The media will continue to trot out the "T" word for as long as it causes sensation and attracts attention and most importantly gets the ratings

[QUOTE]As long as "some" Arabs pose a threat to the general population as we know it, terrorism will always (and should be) top-of-mind.[QUOTE]

I don't think anyone here is suggesting we all forget terrorism and pretend it's not a problem and a threat just that the media stops using the word everytime anything bad happens.
 
satx
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RE: Everyone Thinks It's Terrorism Now

Mon Aug 15, 2005 6:13 pm

Quoting Nudelhirsch (Reply 26):
There was, but not about the crash, it was about some moron who ate 18 grilled cheese sandwiches in a contest. That is headlines in the USA, can you believe that?

American media sucks. I used to watch NOW but the new conservative majority over at the CPB managed to get it cut to 30minutes. I still listen to NPR, but they're starting to push those pointless BS stories just like the one you're talking about. Looks like I might have to get a satellite dish just to get a decent news service over here.
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mrniji
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RE: Everyone Thinks It's Terrorism Now

Mon Aug 15, 2005 6:46 pm

Quoting YOWza (Reply 20):
The American media (both left and right) love to hype up stories. Just as sex sells, fear sells. So for as long as people are afraid and as long as people keep paying attention to that ridiculous colour coded threat level monitor the producers at CNN, FOX and every other network are going to continue to use their favourite sentence "at this time terrorist involvement has not been ruled out."

BBC and the CBC are a little better but not by much.

YOWza, asu usual, I agree! American Media is a piece of sh-t, but even worse that many people actually LOOK for such news! They want to have it confirmed that it was probably a terrorist activity. And CNN found the market: if there is no sensation: make the news! No news is good news and does not sell - hence MAKE NEWS! And even worse the GOP: they are creating much more fear among people.

This hysteria is p-----g me off, too
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
CV747
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RE: Everyone Thinks It's Terrorism Now

Mon Aug 15, 2005 7:03 pm

Quoting Spacecadet (Reply 17):
The reality is also that many of the airliner crashes that have occured have also been due to terrorism. In terms of accident causes, it is probably the single most frequent.

You must be joking!
If you take all fatal accidents, the ones caused by Terrorism are a small fraction. (NB! not all criminal acts are Terrorism. It's not only the hi-Jackers and the bommers. Don't forget greedy business people selling false spares, fake maintenance records,...)

When I look at the hyperactivism, it makes me sick. The media jump on everything now. The USA use it as the general excuse for everything.
I am sorry to say it but I have the feeling that the USA have become the land of T-Paranoia. How else can you explain some of these realy over the top reactions?

Olafur
 
David L
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RE: Everyone Thinks It's Terrorism Now

Mon Aug 15, 2005 9:50 pm

Thanks, Philb!

Quoting Spacecadet (Reply 17):
This is how investigations work - first you determine what *didn't* happen, then you work backwards. (Otherwise you are just following a whole bunch of false leads.)

In every single accident most possibilites didn't happen. Are you seriously suggesting an investigation should start by taking time to rule out collision with an alien spacecraft, being hit by a cow at FL350, etc., and only then start to look at more probable causes? Now that's following a whole bunch of false leads.

In any case, I was talking more about how some people on this forum immediately suggest terrorism while, thankfully, the majority try to piece together the things we know happened.
 
OHLHD
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RE: Everyone Thinks It's Terrorism Now

Mon Aug 15, 2005 9:57 pm

Quoting Pflueeb (Reply 24):
As long as "some" Arabs pose a threat to the general population as we know it, terrorism will always (and should be) top-of-mind.

Who says it is arabs all the time?

Quoting SATX (Reply 25):
Quoting Philb (Reply 22):
Then come back, start a new thread and apologise for typing the biggest pile of bullsh*t I've read here in a long time.

Priceless!

Quoting Pflueeb (Reply 24):
As long as "some" Arabs pose a threat to the general population as we know it, terrorism will always (and should be) top-of-mind.

What on earth are you talking about? Go back to sleep.

SATX: great as usually!!!! Big grin
 
ZakHH
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RE: Everyone Thinks It's Terrorism Now

Mon Aug 15, 2005 10:10 pm

Quoting Pflueeb (Reply 24):
As long as "some" Arabs pose a threat to the general population as we know it, terrorism will always (and should be) top-of-mind.

As long as "some" Americans need a certain level of threat to the general population as we know it, as justification for spending billions of dollars on weapons, wars and mostly useless "security" measures, terrorism will always (and has to be) top-of-mind.

Now please go flame me with "badsarcasm". Big grin
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yowza
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RE: Everyone Thinks It's Terrorism Now

Tue Aug 16, 2005 12:12 am

Quoting Pflueeb (Reply 24):
As long as "some" Arabs pose a threat to the general population as we know it, terrorism will always (and should be) top-of-mind.

Hey Bubba/Billy-Bob/ thanks for finding the time to stop watching NASCAR and swirling Milwaukee Ice to share your pearls of wisdom with the aviation community. Twat.

YOWza
 
stall
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RE: Everyone Thinks It's Terrorism Now

Tue Aug 16, 2005 12:29 am

Quoting Pflueeb (Reply 24):
As long as "some" Arabs pose a threat to the general population as we know it, terrorism will always (and should be) top-of-mind.

Well ! Where do I start ..... I don't know. Such abyss of ignorance is really scary.
Flying is fun
 
soylentgreen
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RE: Everyone Thinks It's Terrorism Now

Tue Aug 16, 2005 1:33 am

Airplane crashes, where there is complete destruction of the craft, are so rare, that it is only human nature today, to suspect terrorism. Quick denial of terrorism is beneficial to those flying that day, and the next, not to mention their families.

Why do so many posters here get so bent out of shape? Relax.
 
freedom4all
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RE: Everyone Thinks It's Terrorism Now

Tue Aug 16, 2005 1:33 am

In the post 9/11 world, how can you be annoyed that people think terrorism is involved, today it has become more and more likely, and when a plane goes down terrorist could very well be invlolved. Wake up, that's the world we live in, a world of terror, if a plane went down, and no one talked about the possibility of terrorism being involved, thats what would shock me. It's the first thing on most minds when something major like a plane crash happends. And until it is totally ruled out. The media will talk about it. Get used to it, or don't listen to the news
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freedom4all
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RE: Everyone Thinks It's Terrorism Now

Tue Aug 16, 2005 1:40 am

Quoting YOWza (Reply 34):
Hey Bubba/Billy-Bob/ thanks for finding the time to stop watching NASCAR and swirling Milwaukee Ice to share your pearls of wisdom with the aviation community. Twat.

thats pretty funny!!  Big grin
long live the 747!
 
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JBo
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RE: Everyone Thinks It's Terrorism Now

Tue Aug 16, 2005 2:22 am

Quoting YOWza (Reply 20):
that ridiculous colour coded threat level monitor

What's it at now? Beige?  Big grin

Quoting Freedom4all (Reply 37):
In the post 9/11 world, how can you be annoyed that people think terrorism is involved, today it has become more and more likely, and when a plane goes down terrorist could very well be invlolved. Wake up, that's the world we live in, a world of terror, if a plane went down, and no one talked about the possibility of terrorism being involved, thats what would shock me. It's the first thing on most minds when something major like a plane crash happends. And until it is totally ruled out. The media will talk about it. Get used to it, or don't listen to the news

Just because we live in a world of terror doesn't mean we have to be "filled with terror" about it. Furthermore, I know that when I see a plane crash, terrorism isn't the first thing I think of. But that's because I'm not stupid either. Like the YYZ crash, the first thing I thought was "why the hell did they land in such a storm?" But the average Joe also hasn't the first clue about aviation. Either way, if you keep bringing it up, it just feeds into the paranoia.

Frankly, I think that instead of keeping all of the counter-terrorism news in the forefront of the news, they should move it behind-the-scenes. Or at least not make it headlines. Every time we hear out of nowhere that the stupid color level has changed from Beige to Baby-Vomit Orange, certain people will likely get scared shitless. However it is more likely that most of the population could care less.

Let the government do its thing like they did before and work behind the scenes. Publicizing our every move on the world news doesn't exactly help.
I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day.
 
philb
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RE: Everyone Thinks It's Terrorism Now

Tue Aug 16, 2005 2:30 am

Quoting Freedom4all (Reply 37):
In the post 9/11 world, how can you be annoyed that people think terrorism is involved, today it has become more and more likely, and when a plane goes down terrorist could very well be invlolved. Wake up, that's the world we live in, a world of terror, if a plane went down, and no one talked about the possibility of terrorism being involved, thats what would shock me. It's the first thing on most minds when something major like a plane crash happends. And until it is totally ruled out. The media will talk about it. Get used to it, or don't listen to the news

We can be annoyed because we don't all live in a state of paranoia.

It isn't the thought of terrorism that causes the problem for those here who try to see through the fogs surrounding an accident. It is the immediate assumption by a very ill informed media, and many here, that a set of circumstances looks like terrorism.

The Helios accident is odd, but is perfectly explicable - there were cases in WW2 of B17s operating above 20,000 ft which crashed when crew oxygen failed but rolling news and those who have an interest in keeping the population afraid always highlight the sensational - as if the rarity of this accident wasn't sensational enough.

I'm interested in the name you use - Freedom4all.

Freedom to do what?

Be banned from taking photos of NYC bridges, be stopped watching and photographing aircraft at EWR, be considered an unpatriotic liberal for questioning the current US policy? Or, perhaps, be free to be afraid of anyone who doesn't look like a WASP on the subway, at the check in or taking street photos?

It's very interesting to compare the British and US attitudes of the man in the street to terrorism.

In the UK, where we had 25 years of totally random IRA terrorism with everything from small bombs under cars and in litter bins through the destruction of buildings in London to the complete shattering of a wide area of Manchester city centre - and throughout the same period we were threatened by Mid East terrorism - we all got on with life with little imposition of draconian security or palpable fear.

Even after the events of July 2005 the British public would rather not see limitations of general freedoms and will carry on as before - if acting more vigilantly.

My 77 year old in laws are going on a trip to London next week. Worried? No. Cautious? A little. Fearful - definitely not.

Attitudes in the US are far more media driven than in Europe and other parts of the world.

Until people query the truth of media reports, the motives of politicians and the need for draconian rules "in the name of freedom" the world will be as dangerous a place for freedom because of the actions of the leading democracies as it is because of the actions of the terrorists.

[Edited 2005-08-15 19:33:27]
 
B744F
Posts: 2927
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RE: Everyone Thinks It's Terrorism Now

Tue Aug 16, 2005 2:34 am

Quoting Freedom4all (Reply 37):
Get used to it, or don't listen to the news

The media is supposed to report the facts, not report the unknown and make assumptions just to get the drama factor up so you people can be glued to the TV
 
User avatar
yowza
Posts: 4279
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 7:01 am

RE: Everyone Thinks It's Terrorism Now

Tue Aug 16, 2005 2:36 am

Quoting JBo (Reply 39):
What's it at now? Beige?

I beleive the threat level is currently at "Eldorado Sunset" but the CIA is picking up increased "chatter" on suspicious channels so they may raise it up to "Cherry Blossom Blush."

YOWza
 
EZEIZA
Posts: 4421
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RE: Everyone Thinks It's Terrorism Now

Tue Aug 16, 2005 2:48 am

Quoting Pflueeb (Reply 24):
As long as "some" Arabs pose a threat to the general population as we know it, terrorism will always (and should be) top-of-mind.

We coud say the same about the other side, right? As long as "some" xxxx pose a threat , etc. (xxxx, you can fill it in with whoever the rest of the world sees as a threat, such as Bush, Blair, etc.). You are only considering YOUR general population, but the wrold is much bigger. And please remember that terrorism does not mean Arab. ETA, IRA, Red Brigades ... they were not "Arabs", so please don't generalize!

Quoting Xr8FordGirl (Reply 27):
The media will continue to trot out the "T" word for as long as it causes sensation and attracts attention and most importantly gets the ratings

Just my .02 here,
Terrorism sells and is used for political purposes as well. Since 9/11, how many times has the govt' told everyone about a high terror alert on x day? It's happened on countless times, now why would they do that? If the govt has some real intelligence reports that on x day something will be blown up, then why put this on the media and alert the terrorists that they know what they are up to? Does not make too much sense. So IMHO, the terror alerts, so often mentioned, are just a way of saying "we know about it and we stopped it, we are so good!", which I'm sure in most cases that's bull$hit!
And yes, way too often, when an accident happens, such as the AF in Canada, terrorism is the cause until proven something else. I agree it should be ruled out, but by always, constantly mentioning "terrorism" as a probable/possible cause you keep fear on the general population. The word is there, so it brings on everyone's minds the lateste terror acts. In the case of the US, 9/11, in Spain, Atocha, in the UK, the London bombings, etc. In other words, keeps fear, and with fear, it's much easier to get the population on your side, because you justify everything in the name of national security.
again, this is just my opinion!

regards

[Edited 2005-08-15 19:52:18]
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
mainMAN
Posts: 1636
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RE: Everyone Thinks It's Terrorism Now

Tue Aug 16, 2005 3:04 am

Quoting Xr8FordGirl (Reply 13):
I always thought Englands rainy summers were suspicious it's a terrorist plot to disrupt the organised loafing.....*whipsers* Australia really doen't like loosing the Ashes you see*

Don't say things like that! I've got four visitors arriving from MEL on Wednesday and if the sun isn't shining at MAN, I'm in BIG trouble!

What was that you were saying about the Ashes?? Big grin  Silly
 
freedom4all
Posts: 111
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RE: Everyone Thinks It's Terrorism Now

Tue Aug 16, 2005 3:08 am

Quoting JBo (Reply 39):
But that's because I'm not stupid



Quoting JBo (Reply 39):
Just because we live in a world of terror doesn't mean we have to be "filled with terror" about it. Furthermore, I know that when I see a plane crash, terrorism isn't the first thing I think of. But that's because I'm not stupid either. Like the YYZ crash, the first thing I thought was "why the hell did they land in such a storm?" But the average Joe also hasn't the first clue about aviation. Either way, if you keep bringing it up, it just feeds into the paranoia.

So are you implying I'm stupid for thinking when a plane goes down, there is a "possibility" a terrorist was involved...yeah, ok. And just for your information, I'm not a "Joe" and I know a hell of a lot about aviation, and in the situation at YYZ, I didn't think it was a terror attack, clearly an accident

Quoting Philb (Reply 40):
Be banned from taking photos of NYC bridges, be stopped watching and photographing aircraft at EWR, be considered an unpatriotic liberal for questioning the current US policy? Or, perhaps, be free to be afraid of anyone who doesn't look like a WASP on the subway, at the check in or taking street photos?

I'm not saying that in the post 9/11 era in the US things haven't changed. Maybe some freedom's aren't "feedoms" after all. But you said, being banned from talking photo's at airports, or taking photo's of the NYC Bridges. Well bridges where known to be possible targets for terrorist. And banning people from taking photo's at an airport is part of security. If someone was talking photo's at EWR in connection with a terrorist plot against the airport. And he was caught and because of the photo ban, the plot was stopped....you would still question the ban??

People in the US are not as used to terrorism as the rest of the world, we haven't lived with it everyday like you have in the UK, and I don't see that as a bad thing, maybe it makes you able to deal with it better, or understand it better. American's will have a different reaction to it then the rest of the world. Our media isn't always right in there reporting. But it is what it is. but you don't have to watch it, you have the media in Europe, witch from what I understand is much better...i Will take your word for it

Quoting B744F (Reply 41):
The media is supposed to report the facts, not report the unknown and make assumptions just to get the drama factor up so you people can be glued to the TV

I totally agree with you, I'm not saying its right, just that its the way it is. And it probably will not change
long live the 747!
 
dforce1
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RE: Everyone Thinks It's Terrorism Now

Tue Aug 16, 2005 3:12 am

Quoting Freedom4all (Reply 37):
In the post 9/11 world, how can you be annoyed that people think terrorism is involved, today it has become more and more likely, and when a plane goes down terrorist could very well be invlolved. Wake up, that's the world we live in, a world of terror, if a plane went down, and no one talked about the possibility of terrorism being involved, thats what would shock me. It's the first thing on most minds when something major like a plane crash happends. And until it is totally ruled out. The media will talk about it. Get used to it, or don't listen to the news

I couldn't have said it better myself! The average person's first thought will be, "I wonder if it was an act of terrorism." It is the media's job to explore all possible angles indepth until they are able to rule things out. This helps to reassure people. I think you will find that the average person is filled with paranoia and fear of the unknown and without reassurance, they will panic. I have no doubt in my mind that the US government covers up many threats and doesn't inform the world purely because the average human doesn't have the capacity to handle the information. As far as I'm concerned, you might think the reaction of people in movies like Independence Day, Deep Impact and Armageddon are just in the movies but my hunch is you will see people actually react that way if such a catastrophe ever happened to our society. That's not to say that the media doesn't sometimes overexaggerate but let's face it, if people wouldn't watch it, they wouldn't broadcast it pure and simple.

Quoting Philb (Reply 40):
We can be annoyed because we don't all live in a state of paranoia.

Everyone has the right to their own opinion but you need to understand and recognize that there are people out there who do live in a state of paranoia and while it may seem silly to you, you need to respect it.

Quoting Philb (Reply 40):
It isn't the thought of terrorism that causes the problem for those here who try to see through the fogs surrounding an accident. It is the immediate assumption by a very ill informed media, and many here, that a set of circumstances looks like terrorism.

Again, it is there job to explore all possibilities regardless of the true cause and terrorism is always high on the list of possibilities because of the world we live in. Even the cops always look to see if incidents were as a result of a malicious act regardless if it's a plane crash, fire to a building or if someone dies. To ensure that justice is served to all, it is necessary to explore all possibilities no matter how far fetched it might seem. Just because the media mentions the possibility of terrorism doesn't mean that they are calling it an act of terrorism. And yes, the media is ill informed, you can't expect everyone to be an aviation expert! It's a whole different world outside of our aviation bubble.

Quoting Philb (Reply 40):
The Helios accident is odd, but is perfectly explicable - there were cases in WW2 of B17s operating above 20,000 ft which crashed when crew oxygen failed but rolling news and those who have an interest in keeping the population afraid always highlight the sensational - as if the rarity of this accident wasn't sensational enough.

Do you honestly believe the average person would have known that?! Get realistic! I'd like to see you anchor breaking news live at the split of a second with limited information on just about any topic possible. Media covers everything - it's impossible to have such a depth of knowledge on all topics without reasonable preparation which there is no time for during breaking news.

Quoting Philb (Reply 40):
Attitudes in the US are far more media driven than in Europe and other parts of the world.

Yes, I must agree with you here. But that is their culture and society and there is nothing that will ever change it - you just have to accept it period.
 
philb
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RE: Everyone Thinks It's Terrorism Now

Tue Aug 16, 2005 4:21 am

Quoting Freedom4all (Reply 45):
I'm not saying that in the post 9/11 era in the US things haven't changed. Maybe some freedom's aren't "feedoms" after all. But you said, being banned from talking photo's at airports, or taking photo's of the NYC Bridges. Well bridges where known to be possible targets for terrorist. And banning people from taking photo's at an airport is part of security. If someone was talking photo's at EWR in connection with a terrorist plot against the airport. And he was caught and because of the photo ban, the plot was stopped....you would still question the ban??

Have you considered that there are thousands of images out there in all sorts of media which detail the design construction and shape of every NYC bridge. There are literally tens of thousands of photos of any type of aircraft that flies.

Trade magazines, house journals and a raft of internet pages will yield anything anyone wants to know about any of the facilities I listed. Its out there, you can access it quickly, privately and in your own time if you have a nefarious intent without the risk of having to take photos. And the pics and specs that are published are not old either. Just for example, how many programmes and technical publications have detailed exactly how the WTC towers succumbed?

Scores, some in so much detail that similar buildings can now be attacked in different, but equally effective, ways.

Blanket bans are there to stoke paranoia, and as window dressing for the authorities.

Quoting DFORCE1 (Reply 46):
but you need to understand and recognize that there are people out there who do live in a state of paranoia and while it may seem silly to you, you need to respect it.

I'd rather educate, correct and replace with a healthy sense of "let's beat them by carrying on".

As soon as you restrict freedom in the face of terrorism, you have let the terrorist win.

Quoting DFORCE1 (Reply 46):
Just because the media mentions the possibility of terrorism doesn't mean that they are calling it an act of terrorism.

Unfortunately, that is the general perception.

Quoting DFORCE1 (Reply 46):
Do you honestly believe the average person would have known that?! Get realistic! I'd like to see you anchor breaking news live at the split of a second with limited information on just about any topic possible. Media covers everything - it's impossible to have such a depth of knowledge on all topics without reasonable preparation which there is no time for during breaking news.

No, the average person wouldn't but, equally, the anchor (or more specifically the editor who feeds the anchor) should avoid speculation and just report the facts.

Rolling news feeds of speculation when hard facts are elusive or not immediately obvious. Its like a cancer. I've been asked five times today if it is safe to fly on a 737 by people I'd call rational adults. A fair question maybe but, put in the context that Boeing claims a 737 rotation every 90 seconds on average, a ludicrous question.

Quoting DFORCE1 (Reply 46):
But that is their culture and society and there is nothing that will ever change it - you just have to accept it period.

I think that's rather like saying the culture of Nazism in the 1930s and 1940s was the German culture and should have been accepted.

The culture I find visiting the US in the middle of this decade is far removed from the culture I found in many visits over the last 23 years - at all levels of society - and even more paranoid than the fear of communism ever was.
 
gipper913
Posts: 172
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2005 8:22 am

RE: Everyone Thinks It's Terrorism Now

Tue Aug 16, 2005 4:22 am

Quoting ZakHH (Reply 33):
As long as "some" Americans need a certain level of threat to the general population as we know it, as justification for spending billions of dollars on weapons, wars and mostly useless "security" measures, terrorism will always (and has to be) top-of-mind

Let's see my German friend, like the level of threat some Americans used twice in the last century to spend on weapons, wars and security measures for use against your native land? Were those instances sufficient threats? Followed, I might add by some Americans - indeed the US government - generously rebuilding your country and then defending for the next fifty years all with not just "some" but "all" Americans' tax dollars?

It is truly stunning to me how quickly our European friends will jump all over us in the US yet seem to overlook 1.) all that we have done and sacrificed for them over the last 100 years and 2.) how barbaric our current enemy is.
The size of the federal budget is not an appropriate barometer of social conscience or charitable concern. --R. Reagan
 
freedom4all
Posts: 111
Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2005 1:14 pm

RE: Everyone Thinks It's Terrorism Now

Tue Aug 16, 2005 4:25 am

Quoting Philb (Reply 47):
I think that's rather like saying the culture of Nazism in the 1930s and 1940s was the German culture and should have been accepted.

Your comparing the US to the NAZI'S?
i sure hope not....the US, and the US media is nothing like nazism
long live the 747!