keesje
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Singapore Airlines Request For Prop. New Aircraft

Mon Aug 15, 2005 9:20 pm

SQ send out a RFP for new aircraft

- Ultra long range Aircraft (A345/772LR)
- Medium Range widebodies (B787/A350)
- High Capasity Aircraft (747Adv / A380)

The ultra long range aircraft are for route expansion to the US (more JFK& LAX and new destinations) Apart from buying new 772LR or A345's, leasing additional 345's is seen as a new option.

SQ did not specify any aircraft types in their RFP, will be interesting to see what Boeing & Airbus come up with.


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[Edited 2005-08-15 14:29:49]
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dutchjet
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RE: Singapore Airlines Request For Prop. New Aircraft

Mon Aug 15, 2005 9:44 pm

This could be the key "Order of the Year" for either Airbus or Boeing.....a lot of airplanes of various types will be involved.

Isnt this the second time that SQ has looked at airplanes in these categories, about 6 months to a year ago SQ was out shopping for several types and ordered the 773ER but made no decision as to the other types/missions. At that time, I think that SQ said it would be either all-Boeing or all-Airbus, I wonder if SQ is taking the same approach this time around.

You can be sure that both Boeing and Airbus will use their best efforts to secure this order......it will be interesting.
 
flyinghippo
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RE: Singapore Airlines Request For Prop. New Aircraft

Mon Aug 15, 2005 10:54 pm

Would this be an all or thing order, or would this be a mixed bag?

What routes would SQ use for 747Adv when they already have A380 serving the routes with most demands? If they're retiring their 744s, bringing in 747Adv (Plus RFPs 787/350 will not reduce fleet types)

And didn't SQ's CEO say they'd rather abuse their 777s rather than ordering the 787 last year? I guese he changed his mind after oil hit another record high eh?

I'd be surprised if they go with 345s again... so if this is an all or nothing order, that might be good news for Boeing.
 
United Airline
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RE: Singapore Airlines Request For Prop. New Aircraft

Mon Aug 15, 2005 11:01 pm

Quoting FlyingHippo (Reply 2):
What routes would SQ use for 747Adv when they already have A380 serving the routes with most demands? If they're retiring their 744s, bringing in 747Adv (Plus RFPs 787/350 will not reduce fleet types)

If Boeing builds the B 747 Advanced, I expect SQ to place a large order. It fits in the gap nicely between the B 777-300ER and the A 380.

The current B 747-400 fleet will remain in service for a while though, I think.

Quoting FlyingHippo (Reply 2):
And didn't SQ's CEO say they'd rather abuse their 777s rather than ordering the 787 last year? I guese he changed his mind after oil hit another record high eh?

The B 777s will remain in the fleet for many years to come. SQ's CEO was talking about the B 787-3 for short/medium range routes but not the B 787-8.

Quoting FlyingHippo (Reply 2):
I'd be surprised if they go with 345s again... so if this is an all or nothing order, that might be good news for Boeing.

Doubt it.
 
laca773
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RE: Singapore Airlines Request For Prop. New Aircraft

Mon Aug 15, 2005 11:06 pm

After all the problems SQ has had with Airbus, it seems logical that they will go for Boeings and that Boeing will agressively court them for orders. Any thoughts?

LACA773
 
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N328KF
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RE: Singapore Airlines Request For Prop. New Aircraft

Mon Aug 15, 2005 11:07 pm

Quoting FlyingHippo (Reply 2):
I'd be surprised if they go with 345s again... so if this is an all or nothing order, that might be good news for Boeing.

Well, if it were all or nothing, let's look at it this way:

A340-500 vs. 777-200LR: All indications are that the 772C is the top performer in this segment, unless ETOPS is an issue.

A350 vs. 787: Specific models aren't specified, but the only valid comparisons on price and capability would be between the A350-800 and 787-912. As they are both paper airplanes, it is tough to make a direct comparison, but based upon what we know technically, the 787-912 would probably have at least a slight edge.

747 Advanced vs. A380-800: This is where the real discrepancy will be seen. How much capacity does SIA need? If the 747 Advanced operating economics are truly equal, will SIA be fine with less seating? And will SIA's rumored displeasure with the A380-800 delivery schedule play into this? IMHO, this contest will be the one that truly determines the winner.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
keesje
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RE: Singapore Airlines Request For Prop. New Aircraft

Mon Aug 15, 2005 11:10 pm

A & B probably will go to offer "the right mix" covering all SQ's network requirements.

Each has a portfolio to choose from & probably some "interim" solutions.

Boeing
- 747-400ER, 747Adv
- B787-3, B787-8, B787-9
- B777-200LR, B777-300ER (low density LR version)

Airbus:
- A380-800, A380-900, (A380-800IHW?)
- A350-800, A350-900
- A340-500, A340-600IHW, (A340-500IHW?)
- A330-300 (A330 light?)
- A321 (A322?)

Much depends on SQ's time table, A & B proved to be willing to go far to get SQ is the past. SQ is unlikely to go for a single source (A or B). Playing them out against each other proved lucrative.

Favorites:
- more / bigger / longer legged A380's
- 787-3's to relieve 772 from duty (if 2010 is acceptable..)
- 772LR's (if Boeing is willing to buy all the A340s again..)
- AC A340-500's (simple low cost, short term solution..)
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
flyinghippo
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RE: Singapore Airlines Request For Prop. New Aircraft

Mon Aug 15, 2005 11:13 pm

Just a thought...

With A350 coming so close to 772ERs in terms of seating capacity and range, would SQ order them given their current (and growing) 772 fleet? Would there be a need to fill EVERY niche between 200-500 passengers? Same goes for the 747Adv, if you have 773ER and 380 already, would you want to buy a plane just so you have a perfect sized plane for a few routes? Especially when the demand in the airline industry changes from season to season?
 
keesje
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RE: Singapore Airlines Request For Prop. New Aircraft

Mon Aug 15, 2005 11:33 pm

This data comparing the A350-900 with B777-200ER came from Flight International, a few months ago.
http://www.airliners.net/discussions...general_aviation/read.main/2149006

ATI (Flight Int) comparison 359-772ER, latest available specs:

..............................A350-900.....777-200ER
3-class seating................300...............295
Full load range............7500nm.............7700
Block fuel/seat..............Datum............+30%
Cash cost/seat.............Datum............+18%
MWE/seat....................Datum............+18%
London noise arrival.......QC0.5...............1.0
London noise departure......1.0...............2.0


Giving the high fuel costs & the SQ habit to replace their aircraft long before their technical lifetime is reached, Airbus will probably present SQ a timetable to replace their large 772ER fleet.

Leahy presenting this in Singapore would probably lead to spectacular indoor lightening sightings in the Chicago area..
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
flyinghippo
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RE: Singapore Airlines Request For Prop. New Aircraft

Mon Aug 15, 2005 11:57 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 8):
ATI (Flight Int) comparison 359-772ER, latest available specs:

..............................A350-900.....777-200ER
3-class seating................300...............295
Full load range............7500nm.............7700
Block fuel/seat..............Datum............+30%
Cash cost/seat.............Datum............+18%
MWE/seat....................Datum............+18%
London noise arrival.......QC0.5...............1.0
London noise departure......1.0...............2.0

Whether these numbers will be met or not, still remains to be seen. What is the expected date for A359 to enter service? 2012? Boeing might have a 772ER replacement designed and launched by then, perhaps 787-10.

Also, with the number of future 773ERs in the fleet, I don't see SQ would replace their 772s with A350, this would create another stand-alone fleet type within SQ. When all of their 777 pilots could operate their large 777 fleet across all kinds of mission profiles today, why would you want to re-train half of them to fly on A359 when 772ERs is so similar to A359 and serving SQ so well?

[Edited 2005-08-15 17:03:27]
 
CHI787ORD
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RE: Singapore Airlines Request For Prop. New Aircraft

Mon Aug 15, 2005 11:59 pm

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
The ultra long range aircraft are for route expansion to the US (more JFK& LAX and new destinations

IS ORD on their list for new destinations?


I think SQ will go for Boeing. Like it has already been said, they need some sort of aircraft to the the gap between the normal widebodies and the WhaleJet. Also, as we all know, the 787 has minor cabin improvements (Lighting, windows) that correlates with SQ's philosophy of offering the best possible flying experience.
 
flyinghippo
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RE: Singapore Airlines Request For Prop. New Aircraft

Tue Aug 16, 2005 2:19 am

Quoting CHI787ORD (Reply 10):
IS ORD on their list for new destinations?

When was the last time SQ flew to ORD? And why was it dropped?
 
kaitak744
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RE: Singapore Airlines Request For Prop. New Aircraft

Tue Aug 16, 2005 3:40 am

Well, I could easily see them ordering 777-200LRs, as they are not all that happy with the A340-500.
 
Danny
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RE: Singapore Airlines Request For Prop. New Aircraft

Tue Aug 16, 2005 3:43 am

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 12):
Well, I could easily see them ordering 777-200LRs, as they are not all that happy with the A340-500.

Source?
 
flyinghippo
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RE: Singapore Airlines Request For Prop. New Aircraft

Tue Aug 16, 2005 3:47 am

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 12):
Well, I could easily see them ordering 777-200LRs, as they are not all that happy with the A340-500.

Until the CEO of SQ comes out public and says "We're not happy with the A340-500", I will not believe that is the case.

However, I do see them replacing A345 with 772LR, due to the fact that 772LR has MTOW which will enable SQ put in a F class product on their SIN-LAX/SFO/EWR routes, 772LR can carry more PAX and cargo, as well as their current large 777 fleet for fleet commonality purposes. (Although the later might be a very small reason for ordering the 772LR)
 
Udo
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RE: Singapore Airlines Request For Prop. New Aircraft

Tue Aug 16, 2005 3:48 am

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 12):
Well, I could easily see them ordering 777-200LRs, as they are not all that happy with the A340-500.

We know the A345 is inferior to the B772LR - but when have SQ expressed they were not happy with the A345?


Regards
Udo
Me & You & a Plane Named Blue...
 
kaitak744
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RE: Singapore Airlines Request For Prop. New Aircraft

Tue Aug 16, 2005 3:50 am

Well, for one, on an aircraft that is supposed to seat 315, they only can have about 180 seats. (due to payload restrictions). With the 777-200LR, they wont have any restrictions and they could have a more profitable 250 seats.
 
SNATH
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RE: Singapore Airlines Request For Prop. New Aircraft

Tue Aug 16, 2005 4:02 am

Personally, I would be surprised if they order more A345s over the B772LR.

However, I would not be surprised if they order more A380s over the B747Adv. And I'd bet that they will use the A380 delays to talk Airbus into lowering the price further.

Tony
Nikon: we don't want more pixels, we want better pixels.
 
SNATH
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RE: Singapore Airlines Request For Prop. New Aircraft

Tue Aug 16, 2005 4:06 am

BTW, Keesje, when I read the title "Singapore Airlines Request For Prop. New Aircraft" I really thought they were looking for propeller planes! Duh!  drunk 

Tony
Nikon: we don't want more pixels, we want better pixels.
 
NYC777
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RE: Singapore Airlines Request For Prop. New Aircraft

Tue Aug 16, 2005 4:08 am

Does anyone know the decision day for this order?
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
DAYflyer
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RE: Singapore Airlines Request For Prop. New Aircraft

Tue Aug 16, 2005 4:09 am

Quoting LACA773 (Reply 4):
After all the problems SQ has had with Airbus, it seems logical that they will go for Boeings and that Boeing will agressively court them for orders. Any thoughts?

It is precisely for this reason that Airbus will court them heavily; they are on the block for the A-380 delivery delays and the 340-500 issues with SQ so they will be very aggressive with them.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 8):
ATI (Flight Int) comparison 359-772ER, latest available specs:

..............................A350-900.....777-200ER
3-class seating................300...............295
Full load range............7500nm.............7700
Block fuel/seat..............Datum............+30%
Cash cost/seat.............Datum............+18%
MWE/seat....................Datum............+18%
London noise arrival.......QC0.5...............1.0
London noise departure......1.0...............2.0

These are Airbus projections, and unlikely proven to be true when all the shouting is over...Airbus has a history of overpromising and underdelivering on performance. IF they can delivery this type of performance, then yes, Boeing will have it's hands full.
One Nation Under God
 
Udo
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RE: Singapore Airlines Request For Prop. New Aircraft

Tue Aug 16, 2005 4:13 am

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 16):
Well, for one, on an aircraft that is supposed to seat 315, they only can have about 180 seats.

The A345 has never been supposed to fly such a route with 315 seats.


Regards
Udo
Me & You & a Plane Named Blue...
 
dutchjet
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RE: Singapore Airlines Request For Prop. New Aircraft

Tue Aug 16, 2005 4:40 am

Whenever he hear that SQ goes airplane shopping, the question that always comes up is whether SQ is going to replace the A345 with the 772LR. There is a very good chance that SQ will replace its A345s.....not because there is anything wrong with the A345s, but simply because the 772LR is a more capable airplane (because it was designed as such) and because SQ is a large 777 operator and it would certainly make sense for SQ to operate the 772LR variant instead of keeping five A345s in the fleet.

Is SQ disappointed with the A345? I dont know, and most here at this site dont know, SQ has not made any annoucement concerning its displeasure with the type. One thing is certain, the A345 allowed SQ to open up nonstop routes from SIN to the US (LAX and EWR) atleast two or three years before it would have been possible with the 777LR which has not yet entered revenue service as of this date. Operating nonstop from SIN to the US was a long-term goal for SQ, and the A345 allowed SQ to achieve that goal. The A345 has served its purpose; SQ operates nonstop to EWR and LAX on a daily basis without issues or operational problems. The question now is whether SQ will decide if it makes sense to move along to 777LR as its ULH airliner.....I think that the answer will be yes for the reasons stated above, and because SQ would like to offer a full F class service on its ultra-long haul flights, plus better operating economics and greater payloads also make the 772LR an attractive package for SQ.

My prediction is that most or all of the new SQ order will go to Boeing (and not because of the A380 delays - although that situation is not helping Airbus at the moment)....I think that we will see SQ order the 772LR and one or more variants of the 787; SQ never really replaced the A310 in its fleet and the 787 is the perfect solution. SQ's plan to "mis-use" 772s on certain routes really did not work out as well as expected and with LCCs popping up all over Asia, SQ needs a smaller, more effecient airliner for regional routes. The 787 can also be used to open up long thin routes out of Singapore - the range and economics of the 787 open up new possibilities for the airline. The big question is the 747A - does SQ really need an airliner bigger than the 773ER yet smaller than the A380....and does it make economic sense to futher complicate the fleet by having another type; thats the question that SQ's management must be struggling with.
 
kaitak744
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RE: Singapore Airlines Request For Prop. New Aircraft

Tue Aug 16, 2005 4:41 am

Quote:
The A345 has never been supposed to fly such a route with 315 seats.

Well, speaking of Airbus over stating their products, on their website, the A340-500 can travel "9,000nm with a full passenger payload" and a full passenger payload is 313 passengers. (sorry, my mistake, it was not 315).

But.... The SQ can only do that distance with exactly 181 seats. (117y, 64j)
 
kaitak744
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RE: Singapore Airlines Request For Prop. New Aircraft

Tue Aug 16, 2005 4:44 am

Ah, Dutchjet, I agree with you. And it would be really nice to see the SQ livery on the 787.
 
PyroGX41487
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RE: Singapore Airlines Request For Prop. New Aircr

Tue Aug 16, 2005 4:57 am

Think about it, though. A340-500 with 315 seats? Sure, the 772LR MIGHT be the better choice as far as pax comfort, reliability and cargo is concerned... key word being "might". My guess is that most of the revenue SQ is getting from their SIN-EWR/LAX route is cargo revenue, which is a seguey (sp?) into my next point. Lots of people usually forget this when it comes to ULH; how many people actually would fly 17/18 hours on a plane, and if so, would they fly it in, say, Emirate's 772 cattle config? I don't think too many.

SQ already has a pretty good foothold on that route and no real competition, minus TG which I really don't think is competetition anyway. If they buy any more ULH aircraft, they'll probably go with secondhand or maybe even a few new same aircraft type. Keep in mind, to my knowledge at least, we don't have real numbers on the 772LR's performance in terms of SIN-EWR with a full cargo or pax load, or even SIN-LAX for that matter. While they did order the A345 before the 772LR was even thought of, they still could have called for a new aircraft type just like UAL did back in the early 1990s with the 777. I'd say their happy with the A345, or enough so that they aren't going to pull an A343 and dump their fleet for the T7.

I lurk these arguments about SQ's A345s all the time and I think people overestimate the ULH sector's worth to SQ. Now that they have the A380 coming, a good fleet of 744s to last them through 2010/2012 or whenever they plan to retire them, I really don't think the five A345s to ye gads how many 777 they operate is going to cause them to jump up and order the 772LR. Capacity really isn't the question here. If its frequency, then we can start talking. But I say it again -- if they ordered five aircraft for these two routes, I doubt it means very much to SQ.

Personally, I think we'll see an order for some sort of long haul aircraft, or high-density aircraft. I don't think whether its Boeing or Airbus really matters. Its all who offers the better deal.

~ Pyro
 
abrelosojos
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RE: Singapore Airlines Request For Prop. New Aircraft

Tue Aug 16, 2005 5:07 am

Quoting SNATH (Reply 18):
BTW, Keesje, when I read the title "Singapore Airlines Request For Prop. New Aircraft" I really thought they were looking for propeller planes! Duh!

= Me too!
Live, and let live.
 
keesje
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RE: Singapore Airlines Request For Prop. New Aircraft

Tue Aug 16, 2005 5:19 am

If future SIN-US travel keeps growing SQ might consider a A380-800LR, comfortably transporting 350-400 passengers & cargo to the big US destinations.

It wouldn´t be a big modification. Wings, landing gear & engines are dimensioned for the higher (-900 & -F) weights.

In a SQ lay-out (M: 8 abreast 38 inch pitch) the 777LR would seat no more then 200 passengers.

On the 772ER & A350-900 : even if the A350 doesn´t use 30% less fuel per seat there is a case. GE might be pushing the A350 to regain ground lost in Asia (rumor : serious discounts / favourable financing for first 250 A350 customers..)

On the A380 : SQ is not happy about the delay, however it´s difficult to materialize that anger if you have no choice..



If airlines like Qantas, BA and VS start bypassing SIN with long range A380´s they have an issue. In that respect the 772LR is more a thread than an opportunity for SQ.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
SNATH
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RE: Singapore Airlines Request For Prop. New Aircraft

Tue Aug 16, 2005 5:23 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 27):
In a SQ lay-out (M: 8 abreast 38 inch pitch) the 777LR would seat no more then 200 passengers.

So, roughly the same as the A345, HOWEVER with higher-yielding F class passangers and lower fuel burn.

Tony
Nikon: we don't want more pixels, we want better pixels.
 
keesje
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RE: Singapore Airlines Request For Prop. New Aircraft

Tue Aug 16, 2005 5:33 am

Quoting SNATH (Reply 28):
So, roughly the same as the A345, HOWEVER with higher-yielding F class passangers and lower fuel burn.

? No, with the same classes..
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
N60659
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RE: Singapore Airlines Request For Prop. New Aircraft

Tue Aug 16, 2005 5:44 am

Another very small point with the 772LR. Press reports in the last week have suggested that N6066Z will take off from an Asian city and fly over the Pacific and North America before landing in London. Could the Asian city in question be SIN and this be a mission proving exercise to convince SQ of it's abilities?

-N60659
Nec Dextrorsum Nec Sinistrorsum
 
SNATH
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RE: Singapore Airlines Request For Prop. New Aircraft

Tue Aug 16, 2005 5:56 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 29):
? No, with the same classes..

Ah, I see. I thought you had taken into account the F class seats.

So, how did you come up with the 200 number? The two planes (B772LR and A345) are comparable in length (64m vs. 68m) but the B772LR will be able to have one more seat per row.

Tony
Nikon: we don't want more pixels, we want better pixels.
 
CHI787ORD
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RE: Singapore Airlines Request For Prop. New Aircraft

Tue Aug 16, 2005 6:02 am

Quoting FlyingHippo (Reply 11):
When was the last time SQ flew to ORD? And why was it dropped?

SQ used to fly to ORD on the routing SIN-AMS-ORD pre 9/11. However, the route was not very profitable especially on the ORD-AMS and AMS-ORD sector so it was dropped shortly after 9/11 I believe (confirmation?). There has been speculation that ORD will likely be introduced as either a nonstop or via an Asian city. The latter is probably correct and SQ may even consider having the route go via YVR as CX is.
 
gigneil
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RE: Singapore Airlines Request For Prop. New Aircraft

Tue Aug 16, 2005 6:03 am

Quoting FlyingHippo (Reply 2):
And didn't SQ's CEO say they'd rather abuse their 777s rather than ordering the 787 last year? I guese he changed his mind after oil hit another record high eh?

Actually, he said they'd rather abuse the A380 than order the 747 Advanced.

Quoting United Airline (Reply 3):
If Boeing builds the B 747 Advanced, I expect SQ to place a large order.

See above. They've publically stated they would not.

Quoting LACA773 (Reply 4):
After all the problems SQ has had with Airbus,

The one problem I'm aware of is A380 delivery date.

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 12):
Well, I could easily see them ordering 777-200LRs, as they are not all that happy with the A340-500.

Again, this is just crap. There's no indication that the A340-500 has done anything but a great job at SQ.

N
 
PhilSquares
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RE: Singapore Airlines Request For Prop. New Aircraft

Tue Aug 16, 2005 6:07 am

Just some points from someone at SQ.

One problem SQ has with the 345, currently in service is they don't have an F cabin. When SQ ordered the 345, there was no other choice. SQ underestimated the demand for premium cabin. The current configuration normally has a waiting list for J and SQ could fill a small F cabin. There is no way to reconfigure the aircraft to accommodate a F cabin. This is where the 777 could have an edge.

380 V 747A

That's a tough one. LH has come out and used 6700 NM as the "operational" (full pax and cargo) range of their 380. If this is true, SQ is in serious trouble. This means the 380 can't do LAX-HKG (no wind 7260) in the winter without payload penalties. The current 744 can do it full all year!

Then there is the freighter question. SQ is very happy with the 744F they have, but some are getting old (for SQ standards). The 380F is not going to work at SQ. Various reasons (floor loading, cargo loading) prohibit the 380F from ever seeing a role at SQ. That only leaves the 747A as the only logical replacement.

Personally, I think Boeing has the edge in this RFP, should SQ decide to do anything. The recent remarks by the CEO leave no doubt things are not fine with the relationship between SQ and Airbus.

My own guess, should SQ do anything at all, is there will be a 747A order with the 777 in there as well as the 787 to replace some early 777s.
Fly fast, live slow
 
SNATH
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RE: Singapore Airlines Request For Prop. New Aircraft

Tue Aug 16, 2005 6:11 am

Is there an indication that this is a "winner-takes-all" competition? I.e. is a B787/B777/A380 order out of the question?

Tony
Nikon: we don't want more pixels, we want better pixels.
 
dutchjet
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RE: Singapore Airlines Request For Prop. New Aircraft

Tue Aug 16, 2005 6:14 am

Quoting SNATH (Reply 35):
Is there an indication that this is a "winner-takes-all" competition? I.e. is a B787/B777/A380 order out of the question?

Tony

Anything is possible, and SQ will certainly make sure that they get the best possible deal from either A or B.......is it winner take all? We dont know, the last time SQ went shopping, it suggested that it would be winner take all and it would buy various types from one manufacturer, but the rules could be different this time around.
 
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PA110
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RE: Singapore Airlines Request For Prop. New Aircraft

Tue Aug 16, 2005 6:15 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 27):
If airlines like Qantas, BA and VS start bypassing SIN with long range A380´s they have an issue. In that respect the 772LR is more a thread than an opportunity for SQ.

Perhaps from the Europe and Australia markets, but definitely not from the North American markets. SQ has a small O&D market, and from the West Coast they operate as the defacto flag carrier of India. The are the true "Air India" from the west coast. There have been days when 75% of both the SFO and LAX flights continued to India. If SQ is looking to increase the number of direct markets served in North America, I have no doubt they will be successful.
It's been swell, but the swelling has gone down.
 
HanginOut
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RE: Singapore Airlines Request For Prop. New Aircraft

Tue Aug 16, 2005 6:16 am

Quoting SNATH (Reply 17):
Personally, I would be surprised if they order more A345s over the B772LR.

However, I would not be surprised if they order more A380s over the B747Adv. And I'd bet that they will use the A380 delays to talk Airbus into lowering the price further.

I agree with SNATH, I think that SQ will order the 772LR for ULH, 787s for medium range and the A380 for High capacity.

No matter how upset SQ is with Airbus over the delays, I think they'll adopt a wait and see approach and see how the A380 actually performs before deciding to go ahead with ordering more. They'll likely go with the 747adv only if they're not happy with the A380.  stirthepot 

With all of the new bells and whistles the 787 will have (and SQ loves its bells and whistles) I see them going for the 787 over the 350.

As for the 777LR, this will likely be their choice (as mentioned by many other posters) for the inclusion of an F class product, however, if they think that they can get away with the A345 for ULH then they will likely save themselves some money and just pickup some A345s (either as compensation from Airbus for the A380 delays or from the market where airlines - hello Air Canada - want to get rid of theirs).

HanginOut
Dreaming of the day I can work for an airline
 
keesje
Posts: 8747
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

RE: Singapore Airlines Request For Prop. New Aircraft

Tue Aug 16, 2005 6:22 am

Quoting SNATH (Reply 31):
Ah, I see. I thought you had taken into account the F class seats.

So, how did you come up with the 200 number?

If you look at the SQ A350 cabin :
http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Sin...ages/Singapore_Air_Airbus_A345.gif
you can see that only about 40% of the cabin is economy (17 rows).

Take off the galleys / lavories & the nose / tail and we can see about 20 meters is left for the economy class.

1 extra seat per seatrows at 38 inch pitch would add about 20 seats on top of the A350 seat count. That makes about 200.

Can you please explain how you think the extra F class would be accomodated at the 7772LR without cutting the total number of seats?
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
dynkrisolo
Posts: 1825
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RE: Singapore Airlines Request For Prop. New Aircraft

Tue Aug 16, 2005 6:25 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 33):
The one problem I'm aware of is A380 delivery date.

And the problems associated with the delay, and the delay of informing the delay, and collecting progressive payments as if there was no delay, ...

Quote:

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 12):
Well, I could easily see them ordering 777-200LRs, as they are not all that happy with the A340-500.

Again, this is just crap. There's no indication that the A340-500 has done anything but a great job at SQ.

Where do you get the indication that it has done a great job at SQ? Lemme remind you that SQ had never openly criticized the 343, but they dumped the 343.
 
SNATH
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RE: Singapore Airlines Request For Prop. New Aircraft

Tue Aug 16, 2005 6:53 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 39):
Can you please explain how you think the extra F class would be accomodated at the 7772LR without cutting the total number of seats?

(a) We can only assume that SQ will replace some of the Raffles class seats with F class seats. So, even though the plane will have roughly the same number of people on board, their yields might be better due to the F class passengers paying more. Also, I don't know where the crew rest area is on the A345. The overhead crew rest areas in the B777 might also free up some space in the cabin.

And they will be able to do this with a plane that has lower fuel burn.

(b) SQ has a Raffles class 2-2-2 config on their B772ERs.

http://www.singaporeair.com/saa/en_U...info/ci_fleet_b777_200er_c1_lg.gif

I can only assume that this will be carried forward to the B772LR and is more confortable than the 2-2-2 config on their A345, as the B777 is wider.

Tony
Nikon: we don't want more pixels, we want better pixels.
 
kaitak744
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Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 1:32 pm

RE: Singapore Airlines Request For Prop. New Aircraft

Tue Aug 16, 2005 7:17 am

1. The crew rests on the SQ A340s are on the baggage deck. So the 777-200LR will free up some cargo space.

2. WOW!!!!!!! Singapore air has a new website!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

3. On their fleets page, the options on the A340-500 are gone again.

Singapore fleet
 
trex8
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RE: Singapore Airlines Request For Prop. New Aircraft

Tue Aug 16, 2005 7:42 am

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 34):
This means the 380 can't do LAX-HKG (no wind 7260) in the winter without payload penalties. The current 744 can do it full all year!

so why does CIs website show their new GE powered 744s unable to do LAX-TPE??? (or for that matter SFO) that signature interior too heavy?? or too many black pearls being carried for those drinks?  Smile
 
PhilSquares
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RE: Singapore Airlines Request For Prop. New Aircraft

Tue Aug 16, 2005 7:46 am

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 43):
so why does CIs website show their new GE powered 744s unable to do LAX-TPE??? (or for that matter SFO) that signature interior too heavy?? or too many black pearls being carried for those drinks?

I don't work for CI, so I can't address that issue. I do know SQ does it with their PW4000's all year long with no impact on payload. Actually, the biggest impact on payload is during the summer when there is too much payload and there is a balancing act between pax and cargo.
Fly fast, live slow
 
N754PR
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RE: Singapore Airlines Request For Prop. New Aircraft

Tue Aug 16, 2005 8:15 am

Am I the only one that thought he ment Prop as in a propliner?

As for SQ, I doubt Airbus will even bother as whatever they offer them they will only be used to get a better deal from Boeing a year down the road.
Bush, your a sad, sad man.
 
hz747300
Posts: 1908
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 11:38 pm

RE: Singapore Airlines Request For Prop. New Aircraft

Tue Aug 16, 2005 8:24 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 33):
Again, this is just crap. There's no indication that the A340-500 has done anything but a great job at SQ.

N

But they removed the "Leadership" titles shortly after operating the aircraft! Clearly, they were annoyed.
Keep on truckin'...
 
egnr
Posts: 408
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2004 8:31 am

RE: Singapore Airlines Request For Prop. New Aircraft

Tue Aug 16, 2005 9:09 am

Quoting HZ747300 (Reply 46):
But they removed the "Leadership" titles shortly after operating the aircraft! Clearly, they were annoyed.


Didn't the removal of the Leadership titles coincide with the decison to start removal of 'Megatop' and 'jubilee' off the 744 and 772/773 fleets as well?


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Quite clearly painted out on those 2 aircraft. Unless SQ is annoyed with A & B and is going to order the IL-96 and TU-204/214  stirthepot 
7late7, A3latey, Sukhoi Superlate... what's going on?
 
hz747300
Posts: 1908
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 11:38 pm

RE: Singapore Airlines Request For Prop. New Aircraft

Tue Aug 16, 2005 9:25 am

Quoting EGNR (Reply 47):
Unless SQ is annoyed with A & B and is going to order the IL-96 and TU-204/214

That would be great!!! Can you order GE/PW/RR powerplants on the IL-96? Or is it only the AN's and TU's, still? I was reading that there was a crowd that refits the IL's with I think PW engines, but only in post market refurbishing.

Actually, Singapore is sitting pretty, they could probably get Boeing and Airbus to do whatever they want in trying to win this order.
Keep on truckin'...
 
ikramerica
Posts: 13762
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RE: Singapore Airlines Request For Prop. New Aircraft

Tue Aug 16, 2005 9:27 am

Quoting PyroGX41487 (Reply 25):
Lots of people usually forget this when it comes to ULH; how many people actually would fly 17/18 hours on a plane, and if so, would they fly it in, say, Emirate's 772 cattle config? I don't think too many.

See my thread on this kind of comment. You can place it there. Do a search for the official flight to long thread, or something like that.

Quoting SNATH (Reply 28):

So, roughly the same as the A345, HOWEVER with higher-yielding F class passangers and lower fuel burn.

NOT roughly the same. As you state, the 772LR already has lower CASM, but that's based on factors that when placed in reality, make it even worse for the A345, so much so it would be very cost effective to dump the A345 as quickly as possible.

The 772LR already has better CASM than the A345 as advertised, no matter how skewed the advertising is.

B bases it's efficiency numbers for the 772LR on 301 pax in a "typical" 3-class configuration. According the this 200 seat for 2 class idea (huge J), you have to figure the numbers at 50% more CASM (not taking cargo into account). 301/200 = 1.5 = 50% more cost per pax vs. base numbers. Obviously, this doesn't take into account the lighter aircraft due to fewer pax and even fewer premium seats than in the B example, but just leave it as is.

But A bases their efficiency numbers for the A345 at 313 pax in a "typical 3-class configuration. So at 181, that is 313/181 = 73% more expensive CASM than their base calculations! And those base calcs are already higher than the 772LR.

One would also NOT assume that SQ would add 19 more Y seats but no more J seats in the 772 plan, considering the J traffic backlog they have now. So, they might instead add 2 more rows of J where 31-33 are. That takes out 8+4=12 seats. But also with 777 increased width, they might be able to reconfigure size and shapes of galleys, closets and lavs throughout, putting back that row of 8. I think they can. So, that would be a net loss of 4 over the 200 seat plan. A better way to look at it is an addition of 12J (76J) and 0Y (117Y), or 193 seats. Or something along those lines. 7 fewer pax than the 200 example, but with a much higher yielding ratio.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 39):
Can you please explain how you think the extra F class would be accomodated at the 7772LR without cutting the total number of seats?

Swap out rows 1-2 with 8F pods. Change the shape of the galleys and lavs due to greater width of 777, and you can still put 2 J-rows ahead of door 2. Then, replace what the 345 calls rows 31-33 with 2 J-rows, again rearrange galleys and lavs due to greater width, pull out that center closet/rest for 2 more J seats total, and you should be able to fit the same number of Y seats as before. That would be 8F/66J/117Y = 191 pax in a 3-class, with 74 premium seats versus 64, including 8 very expensive F seats.

But I bet with the right configuration of all components, SQ could get 200 3-class into the 772LR without compromising the level of comfort they want to provide. We are just basing this on the A345 plan, but that plan includes various galley and lav fittings and crew rest stairs and such that would be rearranged and moved and resized in a 772. Further, we don't know how much space SQ "wasted" with these fittings because they had the room and couldn't carry any more pax anyway. Prep counters and larger lavs don't really take up much weight.

And SQ might also trim down both the Y cabin, decreasing the Y pitch to 36", and providing a Premium Y section with 40" and 2-3-2 seating. Maybe something like 8F, 60J, 42Y+, 90Y or something like that. For such a long flight, being able to choose among more versions of Y and J could be desriable. Who knows?
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.

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