pascalrex
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Low Cost Operations In France

Tue Aug 16, 2005 4:47 pm

France has over the years wiped many bankruptcies in the commercial aviation sector. The most recents are those of Air littoral and Air Lib. This has left many passengers stranded and most importantly many employees jobless. The worth of this is that one gets the sensation that Air France is behind it all. And the French government in all this ? What is its role, is it really applying the open-sky policy as enforced by Brussels or does it make its own interpretation of the European law ?
 
YULMRS
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RE: Low Cost Operations In France

Tue Aug 16, 2005 5:43 pm

The French government made everything he can to maintain Air Lib, loaning them money (30 m €, correct me if I'm wrong) in order to protect Air France of Easyjet. We have to remember that Air France was about to be privatized at the moment (2002). (As long as Air Lib was in the air, Easyjet couldn't get ORY slots, a slot regulated airport).

Easyjet entered the French market on 4 lines (ORY-NCE, CDG-NCE, ORY-TLS, ORY-MRS), one of them was closed recently (ORY-MRS), the 2 slots are now used for 2 Italian lines.

Quoting Pascalrex (Thread starter):
France has over the years wiped many bankruptcies in the commercial aviation sector. The most recents are those of Air littoral and Air Lib.

A new startup would be very difficult to create in France, because of the lack of slots in ORY (the French passagers on short haul prefer ORY) and the lack on confidence the French banks have in airlines, due to the recent failures. (You forgot Aeris)

We have to remember that in fact the French market is highly competitive, but the competition is between the SNCF and Air France. Low prices are regularly introduced on the TGVs and if takes 3 hours from Paris to Marseille, downtown to downtown. A new TGV line will be finished in 2007, linking Paris to Strasbourg in 3 hours, some lines are in project including TGVs to Bordeaux, Nice, Toulouse and Brittany.

I Always thought Corsair could start lowcost operations operating B737. Corsair brand is strong in France, they have slots in Paris and they have the money to set up something, but they recently shown that they will continue their actual charter operations when they purchased United's 744.
To any North American carrier, send us a regular flight in MRS !!!!!
 
Beaucaire
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RE: Low Cost Operations In France

Tue Aug 16, 2005 10:28 pm

As posted several times in the past and discussed to death in French aviation forums, France is not like any other country when it comes to aviation and free "entrepreneurship".
The situation is highly complex and politicized - TGV is the big excuse everybody uses but once you try to travel from Nice to Nantes by TGV you spend a day and change in Paris...
Air France has been using moles within Air Liberté to sink the airline.
This person was then back in Air France service as A 340 pilot...
Air Littoral has been killed from within (its own director closed the company -for technical reasons as he stated -and he and the head of the Montpellier Chamber of Commerce are high-ranking Free-masons. Everything in French CCI's is linked to masonry...!! )
Cities like Montpellier, Perpignan, Lille or Toulon have very little air service except some Lowcost flights to the UK. It is true there are relatively few large cities in France compared to Germany or the Kubota pretending that all French only want to travel to Paris by TGV is a ridiculous assessment and denies the better part of French provinces decent and competitive air service abroad or within France.
I want to write a book about the rotten French aviation -sector but would most likely not find any publisher.... (If you think the Middle East is rotten come to France...)
I know it sounds overdone but this country has exported not only technology but also ways and policies to run counties in Africa through political studies given to African dictator's sons in their "ecoles d'elite».
Many of the African dictators have learned how to control a country and its resources in Paris and Strasbourg...
Valéry Giscard d'Estaing was the big friend of one of Africa's most horrible dictator's - the "emperor» of Central Africa Edel Bokassa and received (proven) huge quantities of diamonds.
Mitterand had an active and extremely rotten Africa-department run and controlled indirectly by ELF (the French petrol group)
The list is long and not very pleasant. But this obviously leaves the aviation sector - well it's all related anyhow....
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frequentflyer
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RE: Low Cost Operations In France

Tue Aug 16, 2005 10:34 pm

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 2):
France is not like any other country when it comes to aviation and free "entrepreneurship".

I agree and that stinks. But it will change...

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 2):
all French only want to travel to Paris by TGV is a ridiculous assessment and denies the better part of French provinces decent and competitive air service abroad or within France.

Could not agree more.

There is definitely room for improvement in that Country!!
Take off and live
 
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sebolino
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RE: Low Cost Operations In France

Tue Aug 16, 2005 11:04 pm

Beaucaire,

Many things you say are right, and yes, not so beautiful.
You are turning it a bit to a caricature, but basically, I think you're right.

However, where I don't agree, is when you say that France is particularly rotten and when you imply that corruption is much higher than in any other country.

I, for example, know a country, quite rich and famous, where the president uses the army as a private army to protect the interests of his friends in the oil business.
You know, money can really hurt a man's mind, and not only in your country.

About the African policies, again you're right, but unfortunately it seems to be more generalized than you think, and we have seen peace glorifier countries installing dictators in south American countries, that's not very new.

On the subject of the TGV, you can't say at the same time that AF is protected by the gvt and that the gvt uses his power to protect the TGV, hurting AF. Something is not working in that theory.
But for sure, when it comes to local politics, the things are complicated.

For example, Ryanair came in Strasbourg, for the happiness of local politics, but at the price of high subsidies. The gvt was not implied, it was the CCI.
Then AF protested, and they were right because it's illegal.
So Strasbourg was let alone without any big company except AF, and no TGV.
But now the TGV is built ... and will for sure hurt AF ...
 
Beaucaire
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RE: Low Cost Operations In France

Wed Aug 17, 2005 12:14 am

Sebolino -yes I do caricaturize France in a certain way - although I live here since nearly 10 years - but the fact that I live here and the government takes my taxes to spend on ridicoulous investments rather than improve the competetivness of the country, is making me angry...( and gives me a right to be critic !)
Speaking in this thread about the USA and the Bush Oil-clan is not approriate ,since the thread deals with France and the Lowcost airline envirenment.
Personally I belive the window of opportunity is closing in France for a french LCC ,since foreign carriers take away the most interesting links .
What I try to explain is the entagled relationship between banks-politicians-freemasonic lodges-Air France -SNCF....
In Germany,the UK ,Spain or Italy there are less constraints to get a business-plan approved in aviation than in France.
In those countries business is mainly business. Not in France.
-Since Banks are politically controlled in France ( even if people will try to tell you it's not true..),pressure on them not to invest in a competing company to Air France is there.
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
YULMRS
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RE: Low Cost Operations In France

Wed Aug 17, 2005 12:30 am

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 2):
I know it sounds overdone but this country has exported not only technology but also ways and policies to run counties in Africa through political studies given to African dictator's sons in their "ecoles d'elite».
Many of the African dictators have learned how to control a country and its resources in Paris and Strasbourg...
Valéry Giscard d'Estaing was the big friend of one of Africa's most horrible dictator's - the "emperor» of Central Africa Edel Bokassa and received (proven) huge quantities of diamonds.



Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 2):
The list is long and not very pleasant. But this obviously leaves the aviation sector - well it's all related anyhow....

Can anyone explain me the link between the lack of French lowcost companies and the African discators ... I feel a bit stupid not to understand ...  Wink

The TGV allows to serve much smaller lines, such as Paris - Valence, Paris - Aix en Provence or Paris - Le Creusot ... We are not in the US where the distances are long and the trains bad ...

We all know that the market hates emptiness ... Where these a market it will be filled ... so there's no "province to province" market, and it's a shame, but nobody wants to fly it.

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 2):
Cities like Montpellier, Perpignan, Lille or Toulon have very little air service except some Lowcost flights to the UK.

Most of these cities are too close to larger airports (Lille is an hour by TGV to CDG or BRU, Toulon and Montpellier are 1 hour by car to MRS ... and MPL isn't that small).
To any North American carrier, send us a regular flight in MRS !!!!!
 
Beaucaire
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RE: Low Cost Operations In France

Wed Aug 17, 2005 12:41 am

Quoting YULMRS (Reply 6):
Can anyone explain me the link between the lack of French lowcost companies and the African discators ... I feel a bit stupid not to understand ...

Reading your profile I understand you are student -well once you start understanding how french economic-politics work,(graisser les pattes..or bribery ) you will see the connection between normally unrelated matters or situations.
Things that don't work in France ,usually have one common reason : politicians !
They have either to approve plans,implement procedures or "facilitate" new laws,allowing companies to operate.The matter goes largely beyond Lowcost airlines- so I stop it there....
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
YULMRS
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RE: Low Cost Operations In France

Wed Aug 17, 2005 1:31 am

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 7):
Reading your profile I understand you are student -well once you start understanding how french economic-politics work,(graisser les pattes..or bribery ) you will see the connection between normally unrelated matters or situations.



Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 7):
Reading your profile I understand you are student

Don't take it personnal man ...  Wink And please ... don't be scorning with me because i'm a student ...

What i just try to say is that there's no room for another carrier ... The SNCF and Air France are too big. And there's not any link between Bokassa and the lack of french LLCs ...
To any North American carrier, send us a regular flight in MRS !!!!!
 
GLA MD11
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RE: Low Cost Operations In France

Wed Aug 17, 2005 1:34 am

Why does every thread about France turn like this?

The French situation is more complicated than that:

- I would say the TGV, rail and road systems, as well as the relative small size of the country play important roles in the French airline business (or lack thereof).

- AF has long operated in a non-competitive environment and enjoys this "insider position" ever since. Competition is possible in France but private operators suffer from the importance that the former public monopoly holder holds. It is never easy to enter a single operator market, no matter where you are in the world.

- Centralization also plays a large role: in France, everything was created around Paris and this includes both the rail and the air system. TGVs are almost always starting or ending their course in Paris and CDG / ORY are the unchallenged center of our air traffic.

Now, things start to change: decentralization is now almost 25 years old and there is now a market for "province to province" traffic. For that purpose, it is easier to open flights than to build a TGV line. Now, the question is: is the demand strong enough for profitability? I would say not yet but in the future, it will definitely come.

- I would also say people are less in demand for low cost air traffic here than they are in the US or in England. People who want to travel cheap just take their cars (you can cross the country in less than 12 hours). Night trains are also working well among students.

- People are generally afraid of LCC that they have trouble differentiating from the charter business. My mom was so afraid when I told her I was flying Ryanair ("are the planes safe?" bla bla bla). Unions are also generally against (they refused a plan making from Air Lib a LCC back in the days before they went belly up).

I certainly forget other factors.
 
Beaucaire
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RE: Low Cost Operations In France

Wed Aug 17, 2005 2:23 am

It's not because I am critic against french politics that I don't like to live in France - the country is among the most beautiful counties I have lived in and I feel very well where I am .
True that things are changing in France but too slowly and not neccessarily in the right direction.
Regardless of that,Air France is a well managed airline,the SNCF trains run basically on time ( would be nice to have a decent food-service though..)and highways are expensive but extremely well maintained.
There is room for region-to-region lowcost air-services - specially from the southern territories to the extreme west and east.Even places like Perpignan ,Toulon or Nîmes would sustain airlinks to Orly or CDG- but if Easyjet does not get the slots who else would be getting them...
Ryanair is not interested in french-domestic trafic unlike in Italy,Germany or Spain.Also the average french province-person does travel less frequently than the average brit or german abroad.
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frequentflyer
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RE: Low Cost Operations In France

Wed Aug 17, 2005 2:26 am

A 60-Million persons country with population centers in 3 main spots, and then dissseminated around it, supposedly with a western-level GNP and available income from clients for their domestic travel, with a single dominant player on a market... can't help but think something's rotten in the Kingdom!

This being said, GLA presented a fair set of facts. And hinted that things may change. I share that opinion.

However, I also think that the French habit of "protecting the national industry" and defensiveness towards economic change explains why AF "enjoys" still to this day that quasi-monopoly. And the demise of AirLib & Air Littoral are imho not chance. And not only related to market or Management.

Inertia, social, political, economical....

Result: folks in the Province in France have a choice between the AF fare and the SNCF fare.

Wonderful
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pascalrex
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RE: Low Cost Operations In France

Wed Aug 17, 2005 2:46 am

In reply to you all, I asked the question simply because in 2002 I had planned to launch a low cost operation based in south of france and no using any AF routes. All airports concerned were enthousiatic about it all. I ahd raised the funds and had political back up (wich is strongly recommended in this country) and when I applied for the licence the authorities told me that they could not grant a licence as we could become at term competitors to AF unless I signed a document attesting that I would never come in competition with that airline. Thing that I surely did not do as I believe that it was disloyal business ! I approched Mme de Panafieu who was furious but could not do much... One member of the comission explained that in the words Air France, there is the word FRANCE, wich automaticaly implies the protection de the gvt !
Another project was then launched by 2 other personns namely: Flyeco, and Ocean airways. None have yet managed to get off the ground.
Studies hav shown that there is a market for transversal lines not deserved by the train or other operators. The objectif of real low cost operation is to use secondary airports (no slots or rarely and cheaper stop over). Last month a new low cost operation began in Reims - that airline uses ATR for the 3/4 lines it operates.
 
TGV
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RE: Low Cost Operations In France

Wed Aug 17, 2005 2:54 am

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 2):
It is true there are relatively few large cities in France compared to Germany or the Kubota pretending that all French only want to travel to Paris by TGV is a ridiculous assessment and denies the better part of French provinces decent and competitive air service abroad or within France.

First of all a question to you Beaucaire: you say you have been living in France for 10 years, but obviously you hate France, as in most of your posts your are criticising this country (and I noted this long before this post).

Some of this critics are deserved, but not all, or not with the level of criticism you usually express. And so my question is: "if it is so terrible in France, why are you still living there? I assume you are from another country, why not go back where all is better ?".

And then, a factual answer on what you wrote: the development of the TGV Network has enabled the creation of direct TGV from province to province, without changing train/station in Paris.
For example between Lille and Marseille you have 7 daily direct TGV, plus one night train. So saying all traffic goes to Paris is quite exaggerated.

This "Intersecteurs" trafic has shown a very good growth in the past years, but not very high yields, as it is mainly leisure trafic.

So it may not be easy for airlines to sustain regular services on such OD pairs.

The advantage of the TGV is that it can stop en-route to have better load factors, at a cost of some additional minutes per stop (the Lille service will stop in CDG, Marne la Vallée, Lyon, Valence, Avignon), which obviously a plane can not do.
Avoid 777 with 3-4-3 config in Y ! They are real sardine cans. (AF/KL for example)
 
Beaucaire
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RE: Low Cost Operations In France

Wed Aug 17, 2005 3:46 am

Dear TGV -
I am part of those foreigners that support the french budget by paying substantial amounts of taxes into the french "Ministére de Finances" account.
You are mixing up critic and hate (sometimes my critic is harsh and sharp but usually based on facts that I can substatiate ). I don't hate France but-as previously indicated- the way some things are managed.
Secondly this is an aviation forum -so I don't have to justify the beauty and performance of the french rail system but we are discussing the wherabouts of french Low-cost aviation. If I would have liked to praise the TGV I would have switched to a rail-forum....
I have not left France because I have a house in an area I love ( Provence ) and I obviously love the people here as well- so why should I leave?
Comming back to aviation -the list of defunct airlines in France is as long as the list of types of cheese you produce...
I happen to know the director of an airport not to far from where I live and he is beeing confronted with a certain amount of Business-plans from start-up airlines.I had an oportunity to read two of them - both put in the very first section their willingness not to compete with Air France and even hired Air France staff to participate in the edition of the document .
This stinks so much that is requires a gas-mask!!!!
France is biased by Air France and SNCF to create a look-out for competition -thats' all.
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varig md-11
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RE: Low Cost Operations In France

Wed Aug 17, 2005 3:53 am

Beaucaire, though what you say is partly true, a good part is also pure crap...
why do you feel necessary to ridicule France with stories linked to Bokassa, the training of African elite and Franc-maçonnerie or other stupidities?
The Netherlands and UK engendered monsters in the ex-colonies too so it's definitely not a French feature...for the intrigues at state level, you're entirely right but then again I think it's quite widespread in a lot of countries, Brussels being the newest Babylon for that matter...oh yeah, they speak French in BRU that's why  Yeah sure

to be serious, I believe some transversal links can exist in France especially if using ATR or EMB planes

about the number 2 french carrier ,Easyjet, I am quite puzzled : I signed, like thousand others, a petition in favor of EZY when AF merged with KL
EZY explained at the time that monopoly blabla sh*t from AF/KL would hurt us and the only way would be for them to get slots on CDG-AMS to counter the new rhino-sized airline.

result?? nothing!!
indeed the price of a CDG-AMS-CDG went up to 180€ minimum instead of 120€ two years ago but in the meantime EZY has totally abandonned the idea of the route

what is the use of crying to the wolf all the time if you do nothing against the beast?
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sebolino
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RE: Low Cost Operations In France

Wed Aug 17, 2005 4:13 am

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 14):
Dear TGV -
I am part of those foreigners that support the french budget by paying substantial amounts of taxes into the french "Minist�re de Finances" account.

Actually, I have to agree with TGV: nothing forces you to pay taxes in France, and it was obviously your choice.
 
Beaucaire
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RE: Low Cost Operations In France

Wed Aug 17, 2005 4:21 am

The Easyjet fleet (mainly A 319) are perfect for strong routes like Orly-Geneva ,Geneva-Barcelona or Nice-Orly- but thinner routes like Marseille-Nantes or Montpellier-Lille would not yield enough for the fleet-structure of Easyjet.
I agree that most trans-province routes within France would call rather for Embraer 145 or ATR 72 than A 319 gear.
But viable plans like Flyeco who were targeting Nîmes-Beauvais,Nîmes-Charleroi or Toulon-Paris were not able to get the neccessary political backing.
The list of destinations Flyeco had in mind is as follows:

Biarritz > Bruxelles-Charleroi
Biarritz > Francfort-Hahn
Biarritz > Paris-Beauvais
Brest > Paris-Beauvais
Bruxelles-Charleroi > Biarritz
Bruxelles-Charleroi > Nîmes
Bruxelles-Charleroi > Perpignan
Bruxelles-Charleroi > Toulon
Francfort-Hahn > Biarritz
Francfort-Hahn > Paris-Beauvais
Francfort-Hahn > Toulon
Nîmes > Bruxelles-Charleroi Nîmes Paris-Beauvais
Paris-Beauvais > Biarritz
Paris-Beauvais > Brest
Paris-Beauvais > Francfort-Hahn
Paris-Beauvais > Nîmes
Paris-Beauvais Perpignan
Paris-Beauvais Toulon
Perpignan > Bruxelles-Charleroi
Perpignan > Paris-Beauvais
Toulon > Bruxelles-Charleroi
Toulon > Francfort-Hahn
Toulon > Paris-Beauvais

It was a great plan but failed -unfortunately.

Easyjet is currently in a stragne situation anyhow,since previously anounced hubs in Germany never materialized - it might have to do with some people in Reykjavik? France is defenitely a key maket for them but the Orly-slot allocation machine does not help to grow the way they anticipate ( closure of Marseille-Orly !)
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TGV
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RE: Low Cost Operations In France

Wed Aug 17, 2005 4:23 am

Dear Beaucaire,

Of courses taxes are high in France. And a part o these taxes could be best used, no discussion. Nevertheless a lot of things paid by taxes are working in France, so in some cases I prefer to pay taxes than have nothing.

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 14):
Secondly this is an aviation forum -so I don't have to justify the beauty and performance of the french rail system but we are discussing the wherabouts of french Low-cost aviation.

If I entered the discussion a and wrote about the TGV it's because of these sentences in your post.

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 2):
TGV is the big excuse everybody uses but once you try to travel from Nice to Nantes by TGV you spend a day and change in Paris...
....
or the Kubota pretending that all French only want to travel to Paris by TGV is a ridiculous assessment and denies the better part of French provinces decent and competitive air service abroad or within France.

As stated by other posters, the TGV is a real competition for domestic airlines, whether they are low cost or AF. So introducing it in a discussion about the difficulties of low costs in France seems logical.

I don't know your country of origin, but obviously the plane is integrated in your way of thinking when you plan to travel. For a great part of the French population, it is the train that is part of their normal thinking.

And as the TGV offers quite competitive travel times and fares (globally, including access and egress to the stations), as well as an acceptable level of quality (trains are more on-time than planes), why would people jump in planes, and leave trains ?

Yes, some routes are not competitive time-wise in TGV (and you correctly mention Nice to Nantes). But what is the demand on such routes ?
If you look at the actual TGV network you will see you have direct TGV (without changing in Paris) on most OD pairs with a significant level of traffic, hence the difficulty for a low cost airline to enter the market.
Avoid 777 with 3-4-3 config in Y ! They are real sardine cans. (AF/KL for example)
 
Beaucaire
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RE: Low Cost Operations In France

Wed Aug 17, 2005 4:46 am

Why are we exclusively focussed on french-domestic trafic (where the TGV is of course a viable and excellent tool..) and don't mention european trafic ,which represents about 75 % of all european Lowcost Business.
TGV is no alternative for a Beauvais-Madrid,Nantes-Barcelona or a Lille-Napoli
Basically all European LCC's target and create new passenger-business by offering previously unavailable services.( Offer creates the demand..)
Typical example are Polish-Lowcosts linking western-european cities to Poland -previously people spend 12 hours in a bus which cost them more than a comparable lowcost ticket.
Trains are excellent but obviously not on long trips abroad- so why denying the market access for people who want to set up Flyeco type companies???
Pascalrex has given a striking example of how things work in France in the aviation sector.
By the way if I chose to pay taxes in France it is my dam right to try to improve things- your comment suggest's that people who complain just have to leave the country - this is precisely what many investors do these days....
You would be surprised to learn about the number of entrepreneurs selling their property and go abroad.Not because they hate France....not even because of the taxes - but they are having extreme difficulties running a business here.
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Pihero
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RE: Low Cost Operations In France

Wed Aug 17, 2005 4:58 am

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 2):
Air France has been using moles within Air Liberté to sink the airline.
This person was then back in Air France service as A 340 pilot...

Please tell us all. That sounds kinky !

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 2):
If you think the Middle East is rotten come to France...)

Why...I suggest you go to that paradise, you'll be living with the angels.

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 2):
Valéry Giscard d'Estaing was the big friend of one of Africa's most horrible dictator's - the "emperor» of Central Africa Edel Bokassa and received (proven) huge quantities of diamonds.

Was that friendship at the level of Thatcher's-Pinochet's ? And btw, if you want to spread rumors, the name was "Jean Bedel".
You also forgot Idi Amin Dada, Mobutu Sese Seko, Taylor, Mugabe, all of them trained in France, along with Videla and so many others I forget them all.(The instructors came from the KKK and the Haitian tontons Macoutes)
You seem to have forgotten the CIA, along with the Mossad and the MI5, and remember, Elvis Presley has a few followers in the Australian outback .I heard that through the Moon sect, he is controlling Airbus and the french nuclear industry.

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 5):
What I try to explain is the entagled relationship between banks-politicians-freemasonic lodges-Air France -SNCF....

I'm waiting with baited breath some juiiiiiiiiiiiiiicy revelations, not only hate-related rants.

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 5):
Personally I believe the window of opportunity is closing in France for a french LCC ,since foreign carriers take away the most interesting links .

Why do you care as long as you have the link you wanted ?

I am glad quite a few have seen your posts as what they are : Manure.
Contrail designer
 
varig md-11
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RE: Low Cost Operations In France

Wed Aug 17, 2005 5:03 am

Beaucaire has a point, just one  Wink
lines that look exotic in the 1st place turn out to be money machine for some operators
example: Ryanair in Biarritz linking London daily
local people in Biarritz didn't believe in it but Englanders are packing the 737 to the last seat.
the line is a success, and I am sure a Biarritz-Frankfurt would be the same
amongst many many others....

because we have the TGV, it doesn't mean we can't develop the rest....
remember the mistake France did with internet at the begining: because we had Minitel, internet was seen as superfluous and bringing nothing new....
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frequentflyer
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RE: Low Cost Operations In France

Wed Aug 17, 2005 5:15 am

This thread is starting to look funny

Humm.. I wish there was some equivalent to France geography- and population- and sociology- wise, so that comparisons of air travel would be possible.

Amazing, however, the reaction of French people when facts bearing potential for improvement are presented. And I came to realize that when I left the Country, I have to admit.

Take it easy guys, Beaucaire is telling you his experiences and feelings with a different point of view, why flame him?? He is an aviation enthusiast like you!

Cheers,

P
Take off and live
 
varig md-11
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RE: Low Cost Operations In France

Wed Aug 17, 2005 6:06 am

cher Frequentflyer, did you move to Southern California or something?? or are you becoming anglo saxon all of a sudden??  highfive 

I am more with Pihero on that one about flaming Beaucaire....what he wrote was not really accurate and didn't intend to be I guess. I even can sense some Fox news style in Beaucaire, but anyway I am happy that French electronuclear capacities are in the hand of Franc-maçons and moon sects, that's quite reassuring  rotfl 

by the way Beaucaire, you didn't want to name him but I suppose you mean to say Corbet is back as an AF A340 pilot after he sucked all the money out of Airlib?
if so I guess he's the one who broke his neck at YYZ...  yuck 
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Pihero
Posts: 4196
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RE: Low Cost Operations In France

Wed Aug 17, 2005 6:17 am

Quoting Frequentflyer (Reply 22):
This thread is starting to look funny

Sorry, FF, it was funny right from the beginning, and for his very first post, the thread starter must have set some sort of a record.

Suggestion : Let him publish or submit to the few A.netters here who have finance and business background his plan and I for one would accept their conclusions. Until then, it's worthy of the shit one finds in the french radiococo, conspiracy theories included.
As a french citizen, I'm beginning to get mad at people who just whine, whinge and rant without ever volunteering a solution.Especially those who're taking full advantage of the french social security scheme (which is just about where this country is losing the most money), the subsidies paid to the french railways (If AF had them, they'd had ordered 300 A320s and Ryanair would be history)...(List can go on...)
In fact the reason that could explain why LCC could not establish in France is the French tax system and the labour laws. If you'd lived in France, you would know that an employee in France costs nearly twice as she/he would outside because of the social protection system (an employer pays 2/3 of the employee's pension ,medical care, .........) plus a tax system that's higher than about any other country in the EU.

And I just wanted to talk about aviation !
Contrail designer
 
frequentflyer
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RE: Low Cost Operations In France

Wed Aug 17, 2005 6:25 am

Hey Varig:

Well I might be a mix of Anglo-Saxon and French by now you are right  half 

I know what Beaucaire mentioned might not be from the London Times, however I just wanted to convey my surprise at the tone the discussion was taking...

This said, I think that the lack of LCCs in France is one option less for French people, and the initial question of this thread is a good question. It is not a question of liking France or not, at least not for me.

Besides, and I have a strong opinion about this, be it on domestic or international markets, I welcome competition for AF. It will help AF stay afloat of the others. I am convinced AF has become a strong player on CDG/US routes thanks to the competition it was exposed to. I have some kind of tough Love for AF!

Happy Flying fellows,

P
Take off and live
 
frequentflyer
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RE: Low Cost Operations In France

Wed Aug 17, 2005 6:31 am

Hey Pierrot, for once we'll chat in the civil aviation forum and not in the tech ops one!

Quoting Pihero (Reply 24):
I'm beginning to get mad at people who just whine, whinge and rant without ever volunteering a solution.Especially those who're taking full advantage of the french social security scheme (which is just about where this country is losing the most money), the subsidies paid to the french railways (If AF had them, they'd had ordered 300 A320s and Ryanair would be history)...(List can go on...)
In fact the reason that could explain why LCC could not establish in France is the French tax system and the labour laws. If you'd lived in France, you would know that an employee in France costs nearly twice as she/he would outside because of the social protection system (an employer pays 2/3 of the employee's pension ,medical care, .........) plus a tax system that's higher than about any other country in the EU

The funny thing is, I do agree with 100% of what you say.

But I cannot help wishing it changes a bit quicker than what we can witness so far.

Safe Contrails,

P
Take off and live
 
varig md-11
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RE: Low Cost Operations In France

Wed Aug 17, 2005 8:35 pm

salut Frequentflyer

I agree with you fully on the fact that AF needs competition and I am an AF lover too, the one is not going against the other on the contrary.
to give a precise example of beneficial effects of competition, I booked yesterday an ORY-NCE-ORY on AF for the end of the month for equivalent price of EZY: competition with EZY had positive consequence of modifying the D-15 previous policy if you wanted to have a good price on AF and EZY has become such a target that AF wants to play in the same price range
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vfw614
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RE: Low Cost Operations In France

Wed Aug 17, 2005 9:18 pm

High speed trains are a serious competitor in countries with an effective and affordable railway system. Look at the situation Germany - routes like CGN-STR, CGN-NUE, BER-HAM have all been dumped by Lufthansa since the intoduction of high speed trains and others only exist as feeder services.
 
frequentflyer
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RE: Low Cost Operations In France

Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:12 pm

Quoting Varig md-11 (Reply 27):
I booked yesterday an ORY-NCE-ORY on AF for the end of the month for equivalent price of EZY

You lucky you Varig! NCE is one of my preferred approaches ; choose a window seat on the left-hand side of the aircraft, and peek when you fly by the Cap d'Antibes, it is really beautiful.. and also, you'll be able to see the Alps farther away.

Have a good time on the Riviera

And Yes I agree, it is a good example of how AF can level with competition.

Cheers,

P
Take off and live
 
YULMRS
Posts: 172
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RE: Low Cost Operations In France

Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:59 pm

Quoting Varig md-11 (Reply 27):
to give a precise example of beneficial effects of competition, I booked yesterday an ORY-NCE-ORY on AF for the end of the month for equivalent price of EZY

When AF has a strong competition on a line (this one is France's most competitive one) their price is good. But they are generally a bit more expensive, also offering a better service (I was flying EZY on MRS-ORY quite often last year, student budjet ...). Now that ESY left the route seems a bit harder to find low prices on AF ...

Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 28):
High speed trains are a serious competitor in countries with an effective and affordable railway system. Look at the situation Germany - routes like CGN-STR, CGN-NUE, BER-HAM have all been dumped by Lufthansa since the intoduction of high speed trains and others only exist as feeder services.

Some examples in France, Paris-GNB was dropped last year by AF, LYS-Paris a few years ago, some others will be dropped too i think. In the next years the TGV's speed will raise to 350 kms/h and may be they will drop other routes at the moment.
To any North American carrier, send us a regular flight in MRS !!!!!
 
jouy31
Posts: 305
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RE: Low Cost Operations In France

Thu Aug 18, 2005 12:26 am

Quoting YULMRS (Reply 30):
Paris-GNB was dropped last year by AF, LYS-Paris a few years ago,

I agree with most of your comments, but PAR-LYS is still operated by AF, there are around 10 flights per day, each way.
 
Beaucaire
Posts: 3888
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RE: Low Cost Operations In France

Thu Aug 18, 2005 12:28 am

SNCF offer since several months special "Internet" fares ( only bookable on the web..) at extremely competetive rates.
While "Reseau Ferré de France" provides the rail infrastructure ,SNCF has to pay for the use of the network.Some tickets sell for as low as 19 € for a Marseille-Paris. No security charges,no airport taxes,no petrol sur-charges.
Infrastructure paid by the french taxpayer while airport and air-infrastructure are privately financed.
You basically can't beat those fares with any low-cost airservice- the taxes on the ticket are higher than the railticket itself.(service called IDTGV )
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
TGV
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RE: Low Cost Operations In France

Thu Aug 18, 2005 12:48 am

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 32):
SNCF offer since several months special "Internet" fares ( only bookable on the web..) at extremely competetive rates.
While "Reseau Ferr� de France" provides the rail infrastructure ,SNCF has to pay for the use of the network.Some tickets sell for as low as 19 € for a Marseille-Paris. No security charges,no airport taxes,no petrol sur-charges.
Infrastructure paid by the French taxpayer while airport and air-infrastructure are privately financed.
You basically can't beat those fares with any low-cost airservice- the taxes on the ticket are higher than the railticket itself.(service called IDTGV )

To summarize, the fact that the taxpayer has financed high speed lines enables:

  • the passengers to have a rail service equivalent or superior to the airline service (I prefer to sit tranquilly 3 hours in a train than fly 45 minutes, but with all the hassles of the airports, nowadays),
  • to pay a very good fare, lower than the low cost airlines,
  • to use a mode of transport better for the environment (rail transport is less energy consuming than air transport, and using electricity reduces the greenhouse effect).


Then I am happy that my taxes were used for building these lines, and I don't demand, for the sake of free competition (and the myth that competition always bring better things -this is not ALWAYS true), that such use of taxes would be forbidden.

For me using taxes to invest in public infrastructure is the way to go, and using planes for short haul trafic is a nonsense.
Avoid 777 with 3-4-3 config in Y ! They are real sardine cans. (AF/KL for example)
 
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sebolino
Posts: 3495
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RE: Low Cost Operations In France

Thu Aug 18, 2005 1:00 am

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 32):
Infrastructure paid by the french taxpayer while airport and air-infrastructure are privately financed.

Uh ?
AFAIK, public money goes also in the airports ... Being local or national.
You are more and more caricaturing ...

Quoting TGV (Reply 33):
For me using taxes to invest in public infrastructure is the way to go, and using planes for short haul trafic is a nonsense.

Agreed.
We can really feel it now that oil is so expensive.
It must however be followed by a coherent policy of energy (we must produce electricity with renewable energy and nuclear).
 
Beaucaire
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RE: Low Cost Operations In France

Thu Aug 18, 2005 1:18 am

TGV- it seems you do read exclusively negatives in my posts - well I just mentioned for non-french readers of this forum the facts without critic whatsover ...would be nice to calm down .
It is obviously preferable to invest taxes on public -transport infrastructure with benefit to the larger part of the french people.
But that still does not bring us further on the unavailability of a french low-cost ,which was the original opener of this thread.If we agree that domestic low-cost operation are not viable due to increasing TGV services and Air France dominance on certain routes,it still leaves the field for Ryanair and Easyjet to feed passengers from various european destinations into France.
What seemingly not everybody understands,is the fact that nobody in France was willing or capable to challange the competition.
The plan of Flyeco was not exclusively based on french-domestic but cross-border operations as well.While it is true that salary charges in France are very high- those same charges do apply to staff from say Germanwings or Air Berlin- both operate within a high-cost envirenemt.
Air Berlin are targeting to take a large part of spanish domestic trafic- so not neccessarily Germans flying into Palma but Spanish passengers flying from Palma to Santander or Santiago de Compostella.That means they start addressing ( also Ryanair in Italy and Easyjet in France ),increasingly new markets away from their home-base.Why have french investors never tried to go as far as these companies ? That's all I would like to know ...
Have french investors burned fingers ,watching people like Erik de Vlieger or Mr. Corbet giving appaling examples of french aviation business ?
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
YULMRS
Posts: 172
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RE: Low Cost Operations In France

Thu Aug 18, 2005 1:59 am

Quoting Jouy31 (Reply 31):
I agree with most of your comments, but PAR-LYS is still operated by AF, there are around 10 flights per day, each way.

Sorry, I thought they were taking passengers by TGV. 11 dailies

http://www.airfrance.fr/cgi-bin/AF/F...nfovol/horaires/tableauHoraires.do

Watching the AF national routes i've seen they still do very short haul such as CFE-LYS and MRS-LYS, that's too short, completely silly. According to mappy.fr Clermont-Ferrand <-> Lyon is only 205 kms by car, 90 minutes ...
To any North American carrier, send us a regular flight in MRS !!!!!
 
JoFMO
Posts: 1840
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RE: Low Cost Operations In France

Thu Aug 18, 2005 2:41 am

AF operates some shorter flights. But they are all feeder flights to their hubs.

When you look carefully through AF's printed timetable, you find out that they promote their domestic five hub system with some nice maps. Beside Paris-Orly, Bordeaux, Marseille, Lyon and Clermont are hubs for them.

When we talk about AF we often only see their super-hub CDG and the domestic hubs are often forgotten because they usually have not more than 1 or 2 flights a day to most of its destinations. But the flights are arranged in banks and offer good connections.

The arrangement with 5 small hubs also underlines that the situation in French aviation is completely different from Germany or UK. But most of the French cities are not big enough to warrant separate flights to other French cities, therefore AF created this domestic hub structure.
 
TGV
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RE: Low Cost Operations In France

Thu Aug 18, 2005 2:54 am

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 35):
TGV- it seems you do read exclusively negatives in my posts

Could it be because, even when giving facts, you generally state something (sometimes very subtly) critic, or even completely wrong like the fact that airports would be only privately financed ?

Or it may be due to the fact that, since I started to read your posts (and this I did for an odd reason, I have lived in Nimes some years ago and was interested to see what somebody from the area was writing), I have always been surprised by the level of criticism you generally have against France.

So I have put you in my "French bashing people box". By the way it is quite a big box since the Iraq war, the Freedom fries, and all what was said at that time - we are still waiting for some acknowledgement that France was not so wrong, finally!

And I have to admit I am not totally impartial when reading what write people "from" this box.

I will try to improve in the future.



[Edited 2005-08-17 20:14:36]
Avoid 777 with 3-4-3 config in Y ! They are real sardine cans. (AF/KL for example)
 
varig md-11
Posts: 1112
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RE: Low Cost Operations In France

Thu Aug 18, 2005 3:00 am

it's not that we have something against you Beaucaire but it is as if you do it on purpose to introduce false information in your statements...

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 32):
Infrastructure paid by the french taxpayer while airport and air-infrastructure are privately financed.

SINCE WHEN????

SNCF and Reseau Ferré de France are indeed financed by taxpayers and so is the entire ADP (aéroport de Paris) mafia!!!!
who is going to pay for CDG 2E disaster? private sector?
and the mini rail system at CDG that had to be entirely dismantled and is now being reconstructed?

aside from that the mini hub system AF has is quite competitive too and this was just mentioned in previous post.
and it's not only national mini hub: when I fly AMS-BIQ-BIQ it's most often via Clermont Ferrand or LYS mini hub
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Beaucaire
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RE: Low Cost Operations In France

Thu Aug 18, 2005 3:31 am

TGV-Best regards from Nîmes airport then - taken several days ago when the Ryanair-Dreamliner had a nervous breakdown and a replacement plane had to be brough in- so you could admire three Ryanbair Boeing 737-800 at Garons..

http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/3384/dreamlinernmes5oh.jpg

http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/2680/troisavionsryanairnmes7fk.jpg

 white 
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
Rom1
Posts: 120
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RE: Low Cost Operations In France

Thu Aug 18, 2005 4:21 am

Hi Beaucaire,

Very nice picture!! Was it on August the 3rd? Because i was in Garons that day about 1.00 pm and saw exactly the same situation, the Dremliner and two Ryanair "classics"....
I posted a thread about it but didn't get any reply.... what was happening?
There was still supposed to be one aircraft from Ryannair on the ground at that moment, One was from Luton, ok, was the second "classic" from Stansted as a replacement? Do you have thier regstration?

thanks a lot

Rom1
 
Beaucaire
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RE: Low Cost Operations In France

Thu Aug 18, 2005 4:37 am

EI-DCZ - I happen to have a picture of the Luton plane from that same day...
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
icarus75
Posts: 751
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RE: Low Cost Operations In France

Thu Aug 18, 2005 4:43 am

One thing is sure : without competition in the air, it is more and more difficult to find low fares in the french skies.

Let me give you one example.
Last year, in the end of september, I booked a flight ORY-PGF-ORY, leaving Paris on the 22nd of decemberwith the last flight of the day around 0900pm and coming back to Paris on the 28th with a flight around 0300pm for a total of 99€.

Today, august 17th, I tried to do the same with the same date and the same schedule.The price is 153€.
If I try to leave on the 23rd, wich I'll have to do because of my job, the price will jump to 183€.

All the prices above are of course with all the taxes included
Flying is amazing!
 
jouy31
Posts: 305
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RE: Low Cost Operations In France

Thu Aug 18, 2005 6:20 am

How much are the taxes ?
 
YULMRS
Posts: 172
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2005 8:10 am

RE: Low Cost Operations In France

Thu Aug 18, 2005 9:05 pm

Quoting Icarus75 (Reply 43):
Today, august 17th, I tried to do the same with the same date and the same schedule.The price is 153€.
If I try to leave on the 23rd, wich I'll have to do because of my job, the price will jump to 183€.

All the prices above are of course with all the taxes included

Today oil is at 65-66 $ ...
To any North American carrier, send us a regular flight in MRS !!!!!
 
frequentflyer
Posts: 708
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RE: Low Cost Operations In France

Thu Aug 18, 2005 9:39 pm

Somebody has an idea on what the % of tax is, in France, for jet fuel?
Take off and live
 
Joost
Posts: 1841
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RE: Low Cost Operations In France

Thu Aug 18, 2005 10:08 pm

Quoting YULMRS (Reply 30):
In the next years the TGV's speed will raise to 350 kms/h and may be they will drop other routes at the moment.

What is your source for this? What routes will this be? And: how will they materialize this? Will there be railway enhancements or train enhancements?

AFAIK, there are only a few TGV tracks (where the TGV can reach 300km/h, Brussels-Lille-Paris Nord, Paris Lyon - Valence/Avignon, Paris-Tours; Paris-Strasbourg under construction), and for the rest the TGV trains share the
track with the other trains. (TGV Reseau).

Next to that, the biggest problem for the TGV along the existing lines, is that the continious TGVs (like Lyon-Paris non-stop) are conflicting with the TGVs with stops along the route. Many cities along existing routes want a TGV stop. Creating stations for this, stopping for the cities - the demand is that high that they could do it economically viable. However, the problem is that the non-stop trains would be hindered by this stop-TGVs, creating the need of bypasses, making it more expensive again - catch 22. When increasing the speed to 350 km/h, this problems gets bigger and you need more distance between the trains, actually reducing capacity.

A solution for this is equiping the trains with GPS and communication facilities, enabling the trains to run very close to each other, but AFAIK this technology isn't totally available/certified/tested yet.
 
GLA MD11
Posts: 264
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RE: Low Cost Operations In France

Thu Aug 18, 2005 10:35 pm

Quoting Joost (Reply 47):
Next to that, the biggest problem for the TGV along the existing lines, is that the continious TGVs (like Lyon-Paris non-stop) are conflicting with the TGVs with stops along the route. Many cities along existing routes want a TGV stop. Creating stations for this, stopping for the cities - the demand is that high that they could do it economically viable. However, the problem is that the non-stop trains would be hindered by this stop-TGVs, creating the need of bypasses, making it more expensive again - catch 22. When increasing the speed to 350 km/h, this problems gets bigger and you need more distance between the trains, actually reducing capacity.

A solution for this is equiping the trains with GPS and communication facilities, enabling the trains to run very close to each other, but AFAIK this technology isn't totally available/certified/tested yet.

As much as I respect you as an aviation specialist, you're out of your domain here!

The speed increase to 350 is planned for the entire TGV network. The trains can already run that fast (actually, they could do a commercial 400kmh and they have set the record on classic tracks at 515.3 kmh - 300mph) but they have to upgrade the power supply system as well as the train-track communication system for that purpose. I do not know when it will happen but what I know for sure is that the new Paris-Strasbourg line will have it from the start.

TGVs run at a distance of 4 minutes each. At full speed, it means 20 kms apart (they need more than 3 kms to stop, actually more than a 747). The system calculates the distance between two trains and adapt their speed accordingly. You have to know that the high speed routes are far from reaching their maximum potential in terms of number of trains...

TGVs do not stop on their fast tracks. Every high speed station is made of at least 4 tracks, the two central one being for high speed and the two exterior for stopping trains. It is quite fun to sit on the platform and see trains storm by at 300kmh 5 meters away from you. There is a little disruption as they have to slow down and speed up in the traffic but their halting time does not count.

The main issue is the cost of building extra stations that are, by definition, out of the cities and pretty much in the middle of nowhere.

TGVs also run on non-high speed tracks, at the same speed as other trains (up to 220). Despite that fact, they enable a substantial gain in time. Paris-Bordeaux is 3h, despite the fact that high speed is only about one hour. Paris-Lyon is less than 2 hours, it was 3h30 beforehand.

TGV has imposed itself as a competitor for air traffic for certain distances but not all. NCE, for example, is still 5h50 from Paris, despite the fact that the high speed lane goes to Marseille. AMS is pretty much in the same situation.

As fuel prices increase (and fuel reserves decline), TGV will gain a more important advantage: they run on nuclear-produced electricity!

Hope this helps!
 
frequentflyer
Posts: 708
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RE: Low Cost Operations In France

Thu Aug 18, 2005 10:47 pm

Quoting GLA+MD11" class=quote target=_blank>GLA MD11 (Reply 48):
As fuel prices increase (and fuel reserves decline), TGV will gain a more important advantage: they run on nuclear-produced electricity!

Thanks GLA for an informed post. I had actually forgotten the advantage of TGV over planes: their fuel. Good point!
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