levg79
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Is That A 741 With Winglets?

Wed Aug 17, 2005 8:31 am

Hello everyone!

I was looking at this picture and got confused:

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Photo © Tony Marlow


Considerin the upper deck, this looks like a 741, but what about the winglets. Is it really a 744 whose upper deck looks smaller than it's supposed to be or is there something wrong with my eyes?

Any comments would be appreciated.

Leo.
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philb
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RE: Is That A 741 With Winglets?

Wed Aug 17, 2005 8:34 am

No, it's a bog standard B747-400F. No need for the extended upper deck
 
Alitalia744
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RE: Is That A 741 With Winglets?

Wed Aug 17, 2005 8:34 am

It's a 747-400F, all -400Fs have the shorter fuselage and 3-window upper deck...hope that helps
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JJMNGR
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RE: Is That A 741 With Winglets?

Wed Aug 17, 2005 8:37 am

Sorry but there is something wrong with your eyes. May a suggest a dark sunglass and a guide dog? I´m joking of course...sorry for the joke!

It is a B744F. All the B744F don´t have the longer upper deck. What for? Just to carry extra weight and loose in payload? Also the engines are brand new and are totally different from the older B741...

Again, sorry for the joke ok?

Cheers.
 
ikramerica
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RE: Is That A 741 With Winglets?

Wed Aug 17, 2005 8:37 am

All non-conversion 744Fs, that is.

As for a 741 with winglets, you will see one soon as they are tested out, and eventually, you will see 741/2/3 and possibly 400 with new blended winglets somewhere around 20 feet tall.

Also, early 777s have winglets in the works...
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garpd
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RE: Is That A 741 With Winglets?

Wed Aug 17, 2005 8:38 am

As already correctly answer, its a 747-400F

Basicaly the 741 airframe (to put it simply) with 747-400 aerodynamics, wing and engines.
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levg79
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RE: Is That A 741 With Winglets?

Wed Aug 17, 2005 8:40 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 4):
Also, early 777s have winglets in the works...

I remember reading that 777's wing is designed to be efficient without winglets.

Also, what are the differences between 741Fs and 744Fs, except for the cockpit and newer engines? I assume the size is about the same, or am I wrong?

Leo.
A mile of runway takes you to the world. A mile of highway takes you a mile.
 
citationjet
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RE: Is That A 741 With Winglets?

Wed Aug 17, 2005 8:40 am

Boeing Flown: 701,702,703;717;720;721,722;731,732,733,734,735,737,738,739;741,742,743,744,747SP;752,753;762,763;772,773.
 
wukka
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RE: Is That A 741 With Winglets?

Wed Aug 17, 2005 8:52 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 4):
As for a 741 with winglets, you will see one soon as they are tested out, and eventually, you will see 741/2/3 and possibly 400 with new blended winglets somewhere around 20 feet tall.

Wasn't there a study release from Boeing a couple of months back saying that raked wingtips were their "way of the future" for their larger craft, as they were just as efficient in the longterm and the widebodies weren't as gate-restricted as the winglet and blended-equipped narrows (since raking adds to wingspan)?

That also could have just been a shot at the aftermarket winglet manufacturers, as well (although the concept photos of the 787 with rakes as opposed to winglets/blended would lead me to believe otherwise).
We can agree to disagree.
 
aeroweanie
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RE: Is That A 741 With Winglets?

Wed Aug 17, 2005 9:45 am

One 747-200 has been flown with winglets by API. However, the design was not taken to certification:



Quoting Levg79 (Reply 6):
I remember reading that 777's wing is designed to be efficient without winglets.

Propaganda from The Empire. Any wing can benefit from a span extension. A winglet is just a non-planar span extension.

Quoting Wukka (Reply 8):
Wasn't there a study release from Boeing a couple of months back saying that raked wingtips were their "way of the future" for their larger craft, as they were just as efficient in the longterm and the widebodies weren't as gate-restricted as the winglet and blended-equipped narrows (since raking adds to wingspan)?

More propaganda from The Empire.
 
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RobK
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RE: Is That A 741 With Winglets?

Wed Aug 17, 2005 9:55 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 4):
and eventually, you will see 741/2/3 and possibly 400 with new blended winglets somewhere around 20 feet tall.

You're kidding, right?

Winglets 20ft tall ????

RK
 
Lemurs
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RE: Is That A 741 With Winglets?

Wed Aug 17, 2005 10:00 am

Quoting RobK (Reply 10):
Winglets 20ft tall ????

Seems crazy, but consider the size of the plane and wing...then thing about the 73G with it's 8ft tall blended winglets. 20ft on a 747 isn't so insane, to scale.
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B744F
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RE: Is That A 741 With Winglets?

Wed Aug 17, 2005 10:34 am

The 744F's are beautiful airplanes
 
eg777er
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RE: Is That A 741 With Winglets?

Wed Aug 17, 2005 10:38 am

I thought that one of the reasons for putting the extended hump into the 747-300 was that it reduced drag and increased range/payload....so why not incorporate into the 744F?
 
N754PR
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RE: Is That A 741 With Winglets?

Wed Aug 17, 2005 10:43 am

Is this for real?? A member of a site such as A.net with over 300 posts and you dont know what a 744F is .....
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wukka
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RE: Is That A 741 With Winglets?

Wed Aug 17, 2005 10:48 am

Quoting AeroWeanie (Reply 9):
More propaganda from The Empire.

I'm sorry... I guess that I didn't include that in my post when I said, "That also could have just been a shot at the aftermarket winglet manufacturers..."

*groan*
We can agree to disagree.
 
B744F
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RE: Is That A 741 With Winglets?

Wed Aug 17, 2005 10:55 am

Quoting Eg777er (Reply 13):
I thought that one of the reasons for putting the extended hump into the 747-300 was that it reduced drag and increased range/payload....so why not incorporate into the 744F?

No easy way of getting cargo up there to the top deck
 
Halophila
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RE: Is That A 741 With Winglets?

Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:08 am

IIRC they also tried the blended winglets on a L-1011 a while ago too (seem to remember it being in CO old c/s), but the winglets never materialised on the a/c in production and were not retrofitted.
Flown on 707, 717, 727, 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 741 742 743 744 74SP 757 753 762 763 772 773 77W D10 DC9 M11 M80 M87
 
bhmbaglock
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RE: Is That A 741 With Winglets?

Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:28 am

Quoting Levg79 (Reply 6):
I remember reading that 777's wing is designed to be efficient without winglets.

That's the newer ones with raked wingtips. Older standard wings would definitely benefit particularly since 777s tend to fly long routes.
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aeroweanie
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RE: Is That A 741 With Winglets?

Wed Aug 17, 2005 1:55 pm

Quoting Wukka (Reply 15):
I'm sorry... I guess that I didn't include that in my post when I said, "That also could have just been a shot at the aftermarket winglet manufacturers..."

Ooooops - sorry about that. I read the beginning of your post and jumped to conclusions too quickly. Your last paragraph is dead nuts on. BTW - the short range 787-3 will have winglets (Boeing designed, not APB designed), while the 787-8 and 787-9 will have raked tips.

Quoting Halophila (Reply 17):
IIRC they also tried the blended winglets on a L-1011 a while ago too (seem to remember it being in CO old c/s), but the winglets never materialised on the a/c in production and were not retrofitted.

No L-1011 has ever been flown with winglets. I think you are thinking of the NASA testing of a DC-10 with winglets.
 
4holer
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RE: Is That A 741 With Winglets?

Wed Aug 17, 2005 2:18 pm

Quoting AeroWeanie (Reply 9):
Propaganda from The Empire. Any wing can benefit from a span extension. A winglet is just a non-planar span extension.



More propaganda from The Empire.

So, what you're trying to say here is that you think it's really clever to refer to Boeing as "The Empire"?
I disagree.

The original question has been answered, but I gotta say that I prefer the "short hump" 747 to the extended 743/4 (passenger!)
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LeanOfPeak
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RE: Is That A 741 With Winglets?

Wed Aug 17, 2005 2:39 pm

Yep, as has been said, factory -400F's have the short upper deck.

Just to confuse things further, some -100's and -200's have been converted to the stretched upper deck.  Smile
 
philb
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RE: Is That A 741 With Winglets?

Wed Aug 17, 2005 3:31 pm

Which 100srs were cvtd to SUD?
 
Halophila
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RE: Is That A 741 With Winglets?

Wed Aug 17, 2005 4:30 pm

Quoting AeroWeanie (Reply 19):
No L-1011 has ever been flown with winglets. I think you are thinking of the NASA testing of a DC-10 with winglets.

That's exactly what I was thinking of, thanks.
Flown on 707, 717, 727, 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 741 742 743 744 74SP 757 753 762 763 772 773 77W D10 DC9 M11 M80 M87
 
ikramerica
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RE: Is That A 741 With Winglets?

Wed Aug 17, 2005 5:46 pm

Quoting Bhmbaglock (Reply 18):
That's the newer ones with raked wingtips. Older standard wings would definitely benefit particularly since 777s tend to fly long routes.

Exactly. Any winglets you see on the 777 would be 772ER and 773 retrofits, not on new planes (though theoretically, they could be on newly delivered 772s in the future, still as a retrofit). B has decided raked tips are their factory option for widebodies.

I had never seen that pic of the 747 with blended winglets. Av Partners said they thought it would be good for cargo ops, so why did they stop the certification process? as for 20 feet, that was an educated guess, but those winglets look to be a bit less than that, maybe 15 feet. But it's hard to tell. The 10 foot winglets on the 757 don't look that tall, so those could be 20 feet and just seem smaller next to the tall 747. Would be easier to tell from a direct side view.

I think the next plane they are looking at certifying, now the the 757 is working out and the 737 line is not incorporating winglets in all NG models, is the 762 and 763.

Quoting LeanOfPeak (Reply 21):
Just to confuse things further, some -100's and -200's have been converted to the stretched upper deck.  

It's not just that, as while the SUD was available as a retrofit, the 741 and 2 were also made available in SUD versions, and JAL took 2, IIRC.
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ZK-NBT
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RE: Is That A 741 With Winglets?

Wed Aug 17, 2005 5:54 pm

Quoting Philb (Reply 22):
Which 100srs were cvtd to SUD?

Not sure on 741's but KLM had several 742's converted to SUD in the mid 1980's. Just trying to think weather AF or UTA's 742SUD's were delivered like that or not.

Anyone remember?
 
Ljungdahl
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RE: Is That A 741 With Winglets?

Wed Aug 17, 2005 6:08 pm

Quoting ZK-NBT (Reply 25):
Not sure on 741's but KLM had several 742's converted to SUD in the mid 1980's. Just trying to think weather AF or UTA's 742SUD's were delivered like that or not.

Anyone remember?

"SUD" means Stretched Upper Deck, also a conversion.

So the answer is that not a single 742SUD was delivered as such.

 Smile
/Johan
 
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RobK
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RE: Is That A 741 With Winglets?

Wed Aug 17, 2005 6:26 pm

Quoting Eg777er (Reply 13):
I thought that one of the reasons for putting the extended hump into the 747-300 was that it reduced drag and increased range/payload....so why not incorporate into the 744F?

Because all the extra metal involved to make it a full length "pod" adds a significant amount of weight and more weight means a higher fuel burn so even though it would be more aerodynamic, any fuel savings would be cancelled out by the extra weight of the pod.

RK  Wink
 
lorm
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RE: Is That A 741 With Winglets?

Wed Aug 17, 2005 6:41 pm

Quoting Eg777er (Reply 13):
I thought that one of the reasons for putting the extended hump into the 747-300 was that it reduced drag and increased range/payload....so why not incorporate into the 744F?

It does not increase payload. In fact it restricts bulk pallet height under the forward hump section by a few feet which is exactly why Boeing does not use the SUD hump in purpose built freighters.
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speedbirdegjj
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RE: Is That A 741 With Winglets?

Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:31 pm

IIRC there is also an issue with the available cargo space being reduced directly underneath the upper deck. Therefore the shorter the upper deck the greater the cargo space on the main deck roughly speaking. Obviously the 400 pax conversions will suffer from this loss of space but its not considered suffient to impact on the programme, although when been built as a pure freighter it makes sense to maximise the available space.

This is clearly illustrated in this picture, look at the difference in ceiling height.


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Ryan
 
ikramerica
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RE: Is That A 741 With Winglets?

Thu Aug 18, 2005 12:24 am

Quoting Ljungdahl (Reply 26):
"SUD" means Stretched Upper Deck, also a conversion

No, the term SUD does not indicate a conversion. It is Boeing term used for the option to have the SUD, and they made that offer available on the 741/742 after it was certified on the 743 design. Just by the time of the 743, few people were ordering 741/742 planes.

There was an SUD conversion program as well, but the term SUD did not indicated conversion at all.
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LeanOfPeak
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RE: Is That A 741 With Winglets?

Thu Aug 18, 2005 12:42 am

Quoting Philb (Reply 22):
Which 100srs were cvtd to SUD?

PlaneMad doesn't have any conversion date, so it would appear they were actually made that way, but JAL has JA8170 and JA8176, cn 23390/636 and 23637/655, respectively. http://www.airliners.net/search/phot...47-146B/SR/SUD&distinct_entry=true
 
Lemmy
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RE: Is That A 741 With Winglets?

Thu Aug 18, 2005 5:09 am

Off topic, but where is the light coming from in the picture that SpeedbirdEGJJ posted? I looked at exterior shots of that aircraft and it doesn't have windows. Are the windows just painted over, letting some light through the white paint?
I am a patient boy ...
 
LeanOfPeak
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RE: Is That A 741 With Winglets?

Thu Aug 18, 2005 7:03 am

Looks like recessed artificial lighting.


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avroarrow
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RE: Is That A 741 With Winglets?

Thu Aug 18, 2005 7:07 am

I think those are just lights built into the side of the fuselage Lemmy.
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LO231
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RE: Is That A 741 With Winglets?

Thu Aug 18, 2005 7:12 am

Quoting ZK-NBT (Reply 25):
Quoting Philb (Reply 22):
Which 100srs were cvtd to SUD?

KLM's 747's in th earlier days?

I think.
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chiawei
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RE: Is That A 741 With Winglets?

Thu Aug 18, 2005 7:16 am

JAL 747-146SR were made with SUD. In fact, those are late model 747-100 made in late 1980's.
 
patroni
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RE: Is That A 741 With Winglets?

Thu Aug 18, 2005 7:29 am

Quoting SpeedbirdEGJJ (Reply 29):
IIRC there is also an issue with the available cargo space being reduced directly underneath the upper deck.

Correct. Under the upper deck the max height is 2.40m, behind it (loaded via the side cargo door) it is 3m.

Quoting SpeedbirdEGJJ (Reply 29):
Obviously the 400 pax conversions will suffer from this loss of space but its not considered suffient to impact on the programme, although when been built as a pure freighter it makes sense to maximise the available space.

Actually the 747-300SF has the same available volume like the -200SF. During the conversion the upper deck floor was removed behind the upper emergency exit to give more room for 3m pallets. When you stand on the main deck at that position, you can look up all the way into the "hump".

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Photo © Carl Hendriks
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Photo © Alain Nether



The 747-400F has an even shorter upper deck than the 200 (inside, outside it's the same). It ends immediately after the crew rest (last of the three upper deck cabin windows) whereas the 200F's upper deck stretches longer:

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Photo © Nathan Zalcman
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Photo © Ralf Meyermann


This gives the 400F two additional 3m pallet positions.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Is That A 741 With Winglets?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 2:35 am

B744F looks great with the Smaller Upper deck & Winglets.
regds
MEL
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akelley728
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RE: Is That A 741 With Winglets?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 2:48 am

Quoting Patroni (Reply 37):
Actually the 747-300SF has the same available volume like the -200SF. During the conversion the upper deck floor was removed behind the upper emergency exit to give more room for 3m pallets. When you stand on the main deck at that position, you can look up all the way into the "hump".

Would they do something similar for the -400SF conversions?
 
AirWillie6475
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RE: Is That A 741 With Winglets?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 2:54 am

Actually you don't even have to look at the body, just look at the engines, that's not a classic 747 engine.
 
patroni
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RE: Is That A 741 With Winglets?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 5:33 am

Quoting AKelley728 (Reply 39):
Would they do something similar for the -400SF conversions?

Definitely. Don't have the 744SF specs here, so am not sure if they will bring it up to 742F volume or 744F volume. I guess this also depends on the location of the upper deck emergency exits? But the upper deck floor will be shortened. Anything else would be waste of valuable capacity.

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