FLYiCRJ
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UPS Pilots Won't Fly Displaced Northwest Cargo

Wed Aug 17, 2005 10:07 am

The Independent Pilots Association, the union for pilots at United Parcel Service, has told UPS its pilots will not fly cargo that Northwest Airlines places with UPS during a strike. IPA President Tom Nicholson said, "We will simply set the parking brakes on any UPS plane containing struck goods."

Heres the full link, enjoy:


http://biz.yahoo.com/bizj/050816/1150942.html?.v=1



- Justin
 
hz747300
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UPS Pilots Won't Fly Displaced Northwest Cargo

Wed Aug 17, 2005 10:08 am

God bless unions. They keep America moving!
Keep on truckin'...
 
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N328KF
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UPS Pilots Won't Fly Displaced Northwest Cargo

Wed Aug 17, 2005 10:10 am

Sounds like it's time to dismantle this union.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
usnseallt82
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UPS Pilots Won't Fly Displaced Northwest Cargo

Wed Aug 17, 2005 10:12 am

That's why there's FedEx.  Big grin

Cheers!
Crye me a river
 
Tornado82
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UPS Pilots Won't Fly Displaced Northwest Cargo

Wed Aug 17, 2005 10:19 am

Really smart guys... extra revenue your company could pick up while filling space on planes that would be otherwise empty and helping keeping freight movements in this country fluid during the strike... and you'll turn it down. Thanks for helping the anti-union movement. There are literally thousands of RJ pilots who'd LOVE your jobs and your salaries right now.
 
N908AW
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UPS Pilots Won't Fly Displaced Northwest Cargo

Wed Aug 17, 2005 10:19 am

Yeah, FedEx has a little bigger presence in the Midwest and South, and would probably be more able to handle NW cargo traffic.
'Cause you're on ATA again, and on ATA, you're on vacation!
 
B744F
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UPS Pilots Won't Fly Displaced Northwest Cargo

Wed Aug 17, 2005 10:27 am

They are just making a statement that they put their fellow airline workers before anything else, personally I think that's fantastic.
 
upsmd11
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UPS Pilots Won't Fly Displaced Northwest Cargo

Wed Aug 17, 2005 10:35 am

FedEx has a unionized pilot base as well. Their pilots may do the same thing as UPS.
 
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N328KF
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UPS Pilots Won't Fly Displaced Northwest Cargo

Wed Aug 17, 2005 10:38 am

This is why we need automation in the cockpit, at least for cargolifters.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
usnseallt82
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UPS Pilots Won't Fly Displaced Northwest Cargo

Wed Aug 17, 2005 10:43 am

FedEx also has strict regulations governing the operation of its flights in relation to union pilots and workers. While it may be the same situation as UPS, FedEx pilots know that their jobs have 200+ people waiting in line to take them if they drop the ball. Plus, FedEx has massive contingency plans to accommodate for "Brown-outs," which could easily handle the NW cargo.

But, I will agree that UPS is sure losing a nice wad of business by turning this down. They could easily keep the freight lines open, but won't for whatever reason. Like I said, "Brown-outs" seem to happen enough for FedEx to have contingency plans so I wonder if UPS unions are going to end up hurting the company. Do you work for UPS?
Crye me a river
 
LAXintl
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UPS Pilots Won't Fly Displaced Northwest Cargo

Wed Aug 17, 2005 10:45 am

Not a surprise. Workers at United and Alaska made similar pledges earlier in the week.

Many union contracts have provisions that allow members to refuse to work/fly "struck work", from a company which unions are is engaged in a legal strike.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
lowrider
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UPS Pilots Won't Fly Displaced Northwest Cargo

Wed Aug 17, 2005 10:49 am

I agree with B744F, you have to have some standards and you have to look out for your brothers, even if they wear a different color. Good for you UPS. The short term gained revenue is not worth the long term cost.
Proud OOTSK member
 
usnseallt82
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UPS Pilots Won't Fly Displaced Northwest Cargo

Wed Aug 17, 2005 10:51 am

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 10):
Many union contracts have provisions that allow members to refuse to work/fly "struck work", from a company which unions are is engaged in a legal strike.

I hope somebody will be able to pick up the load. If not UPS and FedEx, maybe Atlas or Polar can jump in. I just don't understand why another carrier would pass up on the business, especially when business is needed. I can see why you would want to support a legal strike, but there are other ways to provide support without having to let millions of dollars in cargo just sit...although that seems to be the most heavily-impacting form of action.

Oh well, I hope something works out soon. Cheers!
Crye me a river
 
B744F
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UPS Pilots Won't Fly Displaced Northwest Cargo

Wed Aug 17, 2005 10:55 am

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 12):
without having to let millions of dollars in cargo just sit

That's the only leverage Union workers have against their bosses, they actually DO the most important part of the job and get everyones attention when they strike.
 
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chrisnh
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UPS Pilots Won't Fly Displaced Northwest Cargo

Wed Aug 17, 2005 10:56 am

Quoting FLYiCRJ (Thread starter):
"We will simply set the parking brakes on any UPS plane containing struck goods."

Well, that's something those guys at United Airlines in San Francisco didn't do  no  with their 747-400
 
usnseallt82
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UPS Pilots Won't Fly Displaced Northwest Cargo

Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:08 am

Quoting B744F (Reply 13):
That's the only leverage Union workers have against their bosses, they actually DO the most important part of the job and get everyones attention when they strike.

Right, but the problem I have is what exactly is the point of trying to leverage that threat against taking a pay cut when the strike itself could render the already weak airline even weaker, possibly resulting in lost jobs period. I understand the need for the system of checks and balances within private organizations that aren't subject to public scrutiny like the government is...someone must keep the bosses accountable. But you would think that if the members took a step back and viewed the situation from a macroeconomic standpoint, they would realize that the industry is already fragile and a strike would do more harm than good. It seems like strikes are used a little too frequently as a first-choice response instead of an absolute last result.

Now UPS, on the other hand, is just fueling the problem. I understand 'supporting the cause,' but when the 'cause' is threatening to gridlock a major cargo artery in North America, you really have to re-evaluate your priorities. Here we are, the wealthiest nation in the world and we're bitching about going from 70,000 a year to 60,000, when the alternative is having no job period. UPS could easily keep the problem from spreading throughout the industry by taking up the slack until NW gets everything squared away. Since they chose not to, I'm sure someone else will and will benefit from it. However, with UPS having such a vast system, the extra cargo would do little to slow their normal operations.

Whew...little winded there. Point being, I just hope the issue gets settled soon and if not then hopefully someone will be there to keep the cargo lines flowing smoothly.
Crye me a river
 
B4REAL
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UPS Pilots Won't Fly Displaced Northwest Cargo

Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:34 am

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 12):
hope somebody will be able to pick up the load. If not UPS and FedEx, maybe Atlas or Polar can jump in. I just don't understand why another carrier would pass up on the business

Well they will, quite simply. A 'struck good' is something that is technically in a Northwest cargo ULD or on their facility.

If strike is on day 2, all of day 1's in transit yet to arrive goods and new day 2 goods would be 'struck'. From that point after day 2, and day 3 ongoing, goods 'inducted' from customers owning 'struck' goods would not be additional 'struck' goods. So UPS can take China Exporters Inc.'s (or whoever) goods after the strike begins, just not the NW cargo that was shipped the day before  Smile
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MxCtrlr
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UPS Pilots Won't Fly Displaced Northwest Cargo

Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:34 am

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 15):
Here we are, the wealthiest nation in the world and we're bitching about going from 70,000 a year to 60,000, when the alternative is having no job period. UPS could easily keep the problem from spreading throughout the industry by taking up the slack until NW gets everything squared away.

These two statements show exactly how little you understand the problem, or the solution.

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 15):
Here we are, the wealthiest nation in the world and we're bitching about going from 70,000 a year to 60,000, when the alternative is having no job period.

The REAL numbers involved are as follows:

Current: $70,000
Proposed Cut: $17,500 (26%)
New Pay: $52,500

As I stated in another thread, put another way, try paying your bills and meeting your current obligations but take away you pay for THREE MONTHS. That's what the cuts involved are all about. Couple that with the fact that 52% of the mechanics who will vote on this contract, will be automatically voting themselves out of work, so the alternative you speak of is actually, bitch about taking a huge pay cut AND lose your job to boot.

Not such an attractive concept anymore, is it?

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 15):
UPS could easily keep the problem from spreading throughout the industry by taking up the slack until NW gets everything squared away.

The whole concept of solidarity is totally lost on you, isn't it? For unions to have any bargaining position at all, they have to stick together. Not that I'm on a pro-union rant (I have my own issues with unions, but that's unrelated to this issue) but understanding that basic precept is vital to understanding the overall problem and resulting solution.

If NW is allowed to "get away totally unscathed" by this strike (assuming the strike will happen), then the unions - ALL unions - have lost an enormous amount of bargaining position. By refusing the fly NW's cargo - "taking up the slack" as you put it - they send the message to their union brothers & sisters that they are not alone in this fight.

As to the second part, "NW getting everything squared away", do the math. Even with the concessions and job reductions, NW lost more money last quarter than they will save with these givebacks/cuts. Basically, the mechanics, pilots and F/A's have the following options in front of them:

1). Do nothing, and NWA goes into bankruptcy;

2). Ratify the contract, lose 26% of you pay and 52% of your workers, and NWA goes into bankruptcy;

3). Go on strike, get replaced by scabs, and NWA goes into bankruptcy.

The bottom line is NWA management (Steenland) waited far too damn long to do anything, adopting a "head-in-the-sand" mentality to the realities around them. AMFA is not adverse to pay cuts, but they want equality with the other union groups (no other group has been asked for the cuts & reductions in the percentages that AMFA is being asked for).

Before you spout off with "unions are bad, period" garbage like this, try looking at it from another perspective. I'm sure that the Navy taught you to look at all sides of an issue first...

MxCtrlr  bouncy 
DAMN! This SUCKS! I just had to go to the next higher age bracket in my profile! :-(
 
aviationwiz
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UPS Pilots Won't Fly Displaced Northwest Cargo

Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:36 am

Quoting UPSMD11 (Reply 7):
FedEx has a unionized pilot base as well. Their pilots may do the same thing as UPS.

I read in a different thread here that the FedEx pilots did just that... they won't be flying NW Cargo.

At any rate, the thread title should be changed to make it more specific.

Anyone who thought that UPS would carry struck goods needs to get their head examined, UPS is quite possibly the most unionized small package delivery, and cargo company in the world
Proudly from the Home of the Red Tail.
 
usnseallt82
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UPS Pilots Won't Fly Displaced Northwest Cargo

Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:41 am

Quoting Aviationwiz (Reply 18):
UPS is quite possibly the most unionized small package delivery, and cargo company in the world

Isn't that the truth! I spent many long nights trying to accommodate the extra shipments at FedEx when UPS went on their 'annual' strike. Good for us, but wears you out!  crazy 

Cheers!
Crye me a river
 
FlyingTexan
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UPS Pilots Won't Fly Displaced Northwest Cargo

Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:47 am

Gotta luv unions. They’re good and bad.

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 4):
There are literally thousands of RJ pilots who'd LOVE your jobs and your salaries right now.

 checkmark 
"Wouldn't your boss like to fly home nonstop at 4:30 on a Friday afternoon?" -Airline Exec to Congressional Staffer
 
commavia
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UPS Pilots Won't Fly Displaced Northwest Cargo

Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:51 am

Quoting MxCtrlr (Reply 17):
Not such an attractive concept anymore, is it?

Absolutely not -- it's a horrible concept, MxCtrlr -- and I fully empathize with the plight of the NW mechanics and their effort to retain their wages and benefits.

The problem, however, is that they are really just prolonging the inevitable. In a free-market, capitalist, consumerist society like our own, the market always ultimately moves to the lowest common denominator.

Look at what happened in the auto industry: workers there jealously guarded wages, benefits, pension plans, etc., and now half of them are out of work anyway because all their companies are losing billions. Why? Because new competitors with much more efficient and flexible workers (i.e., the Japanese) came in and said, "we can build a better care, cheaper, and sell it for less." And that's exactly what they did. And now, each month Toyota, Honda, etc. are gaining more and more market share in the U.S. auto market.

The same will ultimately occur in the U.S. airline industry (some would argue that it already is). I fully realize and recognize that NW mechanics want to keep all their wages, benefits, etc., but how on earth do they think NW is going to ever be competitive when B6 is outsourcing maintenance to El Salvador, UA is using Timco, US is doing work in Canada, and DL is as well? NW has to cut somewhere.

And, by the way, I fully agree with those who say NW management is negotiating in bad faith here. Of course they are -- it is quite clear that they want the union to strike so they can bring in scabs. However, even with that, I still just think that NW mechanics are putting off what is ultimately going to happen anyway.

Just my $.02.
 
usnseallt82
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UPS Pilots Won't Fly Displaced Northwest Cargo

Wed Aug 17, 2005 1:42 pm

Quoting MxCtrlr (Reply 17):
I'm sure that the Navy taught you to look at all sides of an issue first...

Not quite. I was going to respond with my bias here being that the Navy teaches you to shut the hell up and just do the job. Furthermore, you really think I don't understand the concept about paying bills and meeting obligations only to have to take a pay cut on an already pitiful salary? I wish I was as ignorant as you think I am...then I wouldn't have to experience it as well. The point is that I'm coming from a different area...you do the job because its your duty and you love it; the pay comes second. While we DEFINITELY have our share of bad apples, most are eventually weeded out and you have a relatively strong corps of aviators and crew who want to be there. Take the pay argument to the commuter pilots and the local FBO flight schools and see how much sympathy you get. I'm all for putting up a fight...I've put up more than my fair share. But the solution sought after is not always the best path in the end. Who does it really benefit? Like you said, in the end the company is still bankrupt. Don't preach to me about what I experience on a daily basis...the unforgiving environment of bureaucracy which leads to plenty of hardship for the workers. But strike is no option for us, nor would we ever choose it. When was the last time you heard of Navy pilots striking because the pay sucks? If we bitch about a pay cut, we DO lose our jobs...no questions asked.

Along with that, let it be known that not once have I stated that "unions are bad, period." Infer what you want, but my point was that the choice they are seeking is not necessarily the best option. History can prove the value of an uprising and solidarity, but you have to weigh the destruction it can cause against the benefits it can provide. While they don't have many other options right now, I just think that more time at the negotiating table, with BOTH sides offering a little bit of concession, could avoid this rather tragic situation to another U.S. carrier. However, the 'plight' of the worker and NW mechanic is not the devastating annihilation that you seem to make it. Somehow these people will survive, while it may require altering some set-in-their-ways lifestyles. I experience this every single freakin day. While I won't be so arrogant as to claim the situation is exactly the same with the military and a private enterprise, a dose of self-discipline and work ethic on BOTH sides of NW's feud can do the problem some good. What's the reality here? Another carrier trying to stay afloat. Somehow the workers must understand this and must be willing to do what they can to help the team. Now, I include in this that as a STRONG gesture of understanding their argument, the leadership of NW should give up some of their pleasures as well...that's only fair. But an all out strike can be avoided if people would try to work at solving the problem instead of saving their own hide...and yes, I know what THIS feels like. You take a cut to save the company on the condition that when profits go up, pay will once again increase. Make it contractual, make it written in stone, piss it on a wall, whatever it takes! But let the people know that their efforts to save the company will be rewarded. The union is an incredibly powerful organization, but does not always act in the best interests of the workers in the long-run.

So, tear at me as you will and infer everything BUT the point I was trying to make all night long...I know you feel this fight personally and have a keen interest in the outcome. But don't sit here and treat me as if I'm some snot-nosed turd that doesn't know up from down...I'm going through the same damn thing but on a different playing field, except we can't do a thing about it. At some point you have to look beyond the pain that the problem causes you and see what can be done to fix the problem as a whole. And no, not one single individual cannot do it alone, though they will be the one left to fend for their own life...I would think this is where the 'solidarity' of the union can come into play. What's more important here...getting your little dose of punching the boss in the face, possibly losing your job, or trying to stick with the company to fight through the problems and rising with it when profits once again climb?

Maybe I'm the one with the screwed up priorities here. Maybe I should be a little more selfish and think only of how this is going to affect 'me' and not think about anything else. Its my nature to work for the common good...there's no question in that. So I find it sad when people cannot push themselves to take a blow for that common good. Now, is the pay cut really that devastating? No. Will people be pissed because of having to alter their way of life? Of course...its the American way. Perhaps I'm being a little too optimistic here about human nature, thinking that this could ever be accomplished. But, can you take some hardship and fight alongside the job you love to keep it from going under while still maintaining a good quality of life? You better believe it! We do it every day and while the military won't be going under anytime soon, they sure like to make us feel like they're about to on some occasions. So guess what? You buck up and do what you have to do to get the problem solved.

Finally, as I feel some saying 'thank God,' I do feel for the workers and for the leadership of NW. While I believe the workers can compromise a little more to help the situation, the leadership sure as hell can step in with some compromises of their own to spark the workers into feeling, once again, like part of the team. But the fact of the matter is that threatening to shut down the entire system unless their pay stays high, even though the company needs their helps, will only fuel the problem and make matters much worse than they already are. Then, everyone's out of a job. Good luck to NW and good luck to the industry as a whole.
Crye me a river
 
FLAIRPORT
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UPS Pilots Won't Fly Displaced Northwest Cargo

Wed Aug 17, 2005 1:48 pm

Quoting HZ747300 (Reply 1):
God bless unions. They keep America moving!

or they stop America from moving!  Wink

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 3):
That's why there's FedEx.



Quoting UPSMD11 (Reply 7):
FedEx has a unionized pilot base as well. Their pilots may do the same thing as UPS.

THAT'S why there is DHL, Airborne Express...hey, what about Focus Air!

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 9):
"Brown-outs,"

I know I'm taking it out of the context you wrote it, but I can't help but say: if/when the UPS pilots strike or refuse to fly NW Cargo, can we call it "brown outs?
NEXT FLIGHT: FLL-ATL-HPN on FL
 
usnseallt82
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UPS Pilots Won't Fly Displaced Northwest Cargo

Wed Aug 17, 2005 1:53 pm

Quoting FLAIRPORT (Reply 23):
can we call it "brown outs?

Haha, that will probably be the more tamed version of what it will otherwise be called.  Big grin

Cheers!
Crye me a river
 
FLAIRPORT
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UPS Pilots Won't Fly Displaced Northwest Cargo

Wed Aug 17, 2005 2:23 pm

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 24):
Haha, that will probably be the more tamed version of what it will otherwise be called.

Yea, but admit it, it does have a nice ring to it! Big grin
NEXT FLIGHT: FLL-ATL-HPN on FL
 
MxCtrlr
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UPS Pilots Won't Fly Displaced Northwest Cargo

Wed Aug 17, 2005 7:06 pm

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 22):
While they don't have many other options right now, I just think that more time at the negotiating table, with BOTH sides offering a little bit of concession, could avoid this rather tragic situation to another U.S. carrier.

Unfortunately, the problem is, backed up by the NMB representative, is that NWA is NOT negotiating. AMFA has said that, if the cuts and reductions were in line with what the other unions had to give, they would present the offer to the rank-and-file for ratification. NWA has not budged one iota on their demands. That is most definitely NOT negotiation.

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 22):
Don't preach to me about what I experience on a daily basis...the unforgiving environment of bureaucracy which leads to plenty of hardship for the workers. But strike is no option for us, nor would we ever choose it. When was the last time you heard of Navy pilots striking because the pay sucks? If we bitch about a pay cut, we DO lose our jobs...no questions asked.

True in ANY military environment but you knew that going into the job and accepted it regardless. For that, you have my respect as a member of the US Armed Forces.  thumbsup  The difference is that these mechanics have given back several times before, all with the assurances that they would get it back when times got better. Times got better (in the late 90's) and NWA reneged on their deal.

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 22):
What's more important here...getting your little dose of punching the boss in the face, possibly losing your job, or trying to stick with the company to fight through the problems and rising with it when profits once again climb?

And I don't know if you understand AMFA's position that they are not against taking the cuts and layoffs but not at the levels that NWA is proposing. Unfortunately, NWA is not negotiating in ANY manner of the word. They have refused to accept binding or even non-binding arbitration. So it boils down to vote for a contract that will put you out of work as soon as you sign it, all with no severence package and no guarantee of your pension. Not a reasonable thing for someone to accept.

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 22):
But the fact of the matter is that threatening to shut down the entire system unless their pay stays high, even though the company needs their helps, will only fuel the problem and make matters much worse than they already are.

Again, tell that to NWA. Nobody at AMFA thinks they are going to get away without any cuts but the levels that NWA wants are designed to do one thing - Allow NWA to outsource ALL of their maintenance (and, if the F/A's refuse to cross the picket line, NWA get's a golden egg by replacing the F/A's too). NWA doesn't want to negotiate ANYTHING with AMFA; They want them to strike.

I'd be willing to bet that, if AMFA doesn't strike on Friday, NWA locks them out and replaces them immediately (if not in the next day or two). The only fly in the ointment is ALPA. If they decide not to cross a legal picket line, that could spell BIG problems for NWA.

Anyway, throughout all of this reparte', welcome to my RR list. I enjoy a good sparring match with an opponent who actually uses their grey matter.

MxCtrlr  bouncy 
DAMN! This SUCKS! I just had to go to the next higher age bracket in my profile! :-(
 
Boeing757/767
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UPS Pilots Won't Fly Displaced Northwest Cargo

Wed Aug 17, 2005 9:21 pm

Is it me, or are unions completely child-like?
Free-thinking, left-leaning secularist
 
lowrider
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UPS Pilots Won't Fly Displaced Northwest Cargo

Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:25 pm

Quoting Boeing757/767 (Reply 27):
Is it me, or are unions completely child-like

Its just you. Its the stereotypes that are completely child-like.
Proud OOTSK member
 
frequentflyer
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UPS Pilots Won't Fly Displaced Northwest Cargo

Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:49 pm

Quoting Commavia (Reply 21):
NW management is negotiating in bad faith here. Of course they are -- it is quite clear that they want the union to strike so they can bring in scabs

Well maybe MW Management is also tired of dealing with guys constantly threatening strikes...

The UPS union is actually also "striking" by embargoing struck freight and blocking more Business for UPS.

In other words they are hindering UPS Business.
Take off and live
 
commavia
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UPS Pilots Won't Fly Displaced Northwest Cargo

Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:58 pm

Quoting Frequentflyer (Reply 29):
Well maybe MW Management is also tired of dealing with guys constantly threatening strikes

FF -- I'm not defending either side. I'm simply saying that NW management is obviously negotiating here with the intent of getting the union to strike so they can bring in scabs. That's their goal. I'm not saying whether or not it is justifiable -- in fact, I can definitely understand arguments for why it is. NW management has to remain competitive, and they have to deliver shareholder value, and as such they feel that breaking this union, laying off half the mechanics and outsourcing the rest, and getting pay and benefit cuts from those that remain is their course of action.
 
NWAFA
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UPS Pilots Won't Fly Displaced Northwest Cargo

Thu Aug 18, 2005 12:00 am

FedEx pilots came out yesterday stating they will not fly NWA shipments!

So Glad to hear that!!
THANK YOU FOR FLYING NORTHWEST AIRLINES, WE TRULY APPRECIATE YOUR BUSINESS!
 
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N328KF
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UPS Pilots Won't Fly Displaced Northwest Cargo

Thu Aug 18, 2005 12:03 am

Quoting NWAFA (Reply 31):
FedEx pilots came out yesterday stating they will not fly NWA shipments!

So Glad to hear that!!

That's bogus. This is a prime opportunity for other companies to prosper at the expense of NW management and unions, alike. This company needs to come crashing down.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
NWAFA
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UPS Pilots Won't Fly Displaced Northwest Cargo

Thu Aug 18, 2005 12:14 am

Wow N328KF, at reading your posts it appears that you have not taken any nice pills lately.

No company needs to come crashing down. Thousands of lives are at stake at any corporation.

You really have a great deal of hate and anger towards Unions. I am thankful for the years and years of work they have done to get aviation safer. If it was NOT for the unions this industry would not have the safety it does.

Without the unions the following things would have NEVER happened!

Seat Belts for passengers
Over Head bins
Slides for evacs - doors being armed prior to movement
Max duty time for pilots and Flight Attendants
Demo announcments
Shoulder Harness for flight crews

Thats for starters. Before you continue on your il-informed path of bashing unions, look at the greatness they have done to keep YOU safe in the industry that I am guessing you love like the rest of us!
THANK YOU FOR FLYING NORTHWEST AIRLINES, WE TRULY APPRECIATE YOUR BUSINESS!
 
frequentflyer
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UPS Pilots Won't Fly Displaced Northwest Cargo

Thu Aug 18, 2005 12:14 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 30):
I'm simply saying that NW management is obviously negotiating here with the intent of getting the union to strike so they can bring in scabs. That's their goal. I'm not saying whether or not it is justifiable -- in fact, I can definitely understand arguments for why it is.

Hi Comm how've u been?

I know you are not defending either side, and I do agree with your analysis. I just wanted to bring to the debate a feeling I know well, which is having to deal with guys who consider the option to strike as constant part of their work instead of helping their employer soar in tough times. And NW Management has to deal with that constantly too it seems.

Quoting N328KF (Reply 32):
This is a prime opportunity for other companies to prosper at the expense of NW management and unions, alike.

Right on the nose N328! Competition is another word for it.

Cheers,

P
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N328KF
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UPS Pilots Won't Fly Displaced Northwest Cargo

Thu Aug 18, 2005 12:18 am

Quoting NWAFA (Reply 33):
Wow N328KF, at reading your posts it appears that you have not taken any nice pills lately.

No company needs to come crashing down. Thousands of lives are at stake at any corporation.

I am not saying that unions didn't have their place, but they don't really now, especially in this situation. The death of NW would be the penalty for management and unions not being able to work together. This should be incentive for them to get things in gear. And since we already have an overcapacity issue with US airlines, some of them need to die off, and this is a good opportunity.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
NWAFA
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UPS Pilots Won't Fly Displaced Northwest Cargo

Thu Aug 18, 2005 12:24 am

Sorry I don't think that 40,000 people should loose their jobs! (I for one, been there done that when I worked for Pan Am!)

This is a board about Aviation, I don't understand your hatred towards we the hard working employees of airlines. I have stood back and read your comments for a long time now, and finally have had enough of it to start posting.

Every one needs to look at how great this industry is. Do we not love it? If you don't, then personally, this site is NOT FOR YOU. If you love it like so many of us do and have for years, then stop all the crap about its a bad airline because they didn't feed me on an hour flight. No movie..all that stuff, have so many of you forgotten about the wonderful sounds, sites and smells that this industry is about?
THANK YOU FOR FLYING NORTHWEST AIRLINES, WE TRULY APPRECIATE YOUR BUSINESS!
 
commavia
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UPS Pilots Won't Fly Displaced Northwest Cargo

Thu Aug 18, 2005 12:26 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 32):
This is a prime opportunity for other companies to prosper at the expense of NW management and unions, alike.

Definitely, and that no doubt will happen, regardless of what FedEx or UPS does. I'm sure that pilots and workers at and many carriers will be more than happy to take on the business of NW if the strike shuts them down. That will mean more money for their carriers, and ultimately a better situation for them. It's survival of the fittest in this chaotic jungle, and I think many other airlines' workers fully recognize that -- they won't let a huge opportunity like this go by.

Quoting Frequentflyer (Reply 34):
I just wanted to bring to the debate a feeling I know well, which is having to deal with guys who consider the option to strike as constant part of their work instead of helping their employer soar in tough times.

I fully understand, and respect your point of view -- no doubt, the constant threat of an impending strike is not good for a business and certainly doesn't help the employer, which ultimately means that it doesn't help the employees.
 
ikramerica
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UPS Pilots Won't Fly Displaced Northwest Cargo

Thu Aug 18, 2005 12:28 am

This stance makes no sense by the UPS pilots.

One point of a strike action is to make the company you work for lose customers so that they get worried they can't win them back and settle on better terms.

How do the UPS pilots flying or not flying the cargo help NW? Either way, NW loses revenue. All not flying the cargo does is hurt the customer and the economy of the areas where NW cargo operates.

I'm sure a lot of that cargo is produced by union labor, too...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
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N328KF
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UPS Pilots Won't Fly Displaced Northwest Cargo

Thu Aug 18, 2005 12:31 am

Quoting NWAFA (Reply 36):
Sorry I don't think that 40,000 people should loose their jobs! (I for one, been there done that when I worked for Pan Am!)

It's not a jobs program, and treating it as such just makes a bad situation worse. If the company is not self-sustaining, it needs to go so that other companies and their employees will be able to benefit. This is a zero-sum game, and it's NW's turn to go into the hole.

Quoting NWAFA (Reply 36):
Every one needs to look at how great this industry is. Do we not love it? If you don't, then personally, this site is NOT FOR YOU. If you love it like so many of us do and have for years, then stop all the crap about its a bad airline because they didn't feed me on an hour flight.

I love the industry. I hate seeing anything get in the way of it, and NW's management and unions are both getting in the way. So be it, let the company fall by the wayside as more nimble and responsive competitors pick up the slack.

You seem to think I'm bringing emotion into this. In fact, my suggestions are calculated based upon what I see as necessary for the industry to prosper. You, however, seem to be emotionally tied to the issue. I can see that you care about your company, but it is underperforming deadwood and therefore has no place in a healthy airline industry.

 bomb 

[Edited 2005-08-17 17:47:53]
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
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kc135topboom
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UPS Pilots Won't Fly Displaced Northwest Cargo

Thu Aug 18, 2005 12:43 am

Well, UPS is actually a trucking company, who owns an airline. So, put the cargo on the trucks, and replace any pilot who refuses to fly any cargo that must go by air.

There are thousands of pilots out of a job, who will fly for UPS.

Remember, unions state with the same "u" that useless does.
 
NWAFA
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UPS Pilots Won't Fly Displaced Northwest Cargo

Thu Aug 18, 2005 12:48 am

N,

I would rather be emotional about something than not have any.

Trust me I can NOT stand management at this company, they are crooked and rapist. Steenland is the master of rape. However we are going no where, trust me!

United is here. Every one wrote them off years ago. NWA has what all the other airlines have (With the exception of UA) that is PACIFIC. So trust me, mark my words, August 17, 2005, NWA will NOT be going anywhere!
THANK YOU FOR FLYING NORTHWEST AIRLINES, WE TRULY APPRECIATE YOUR BUSINESS!
 
jetdeltamsy
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UPS Pilots Won't Fly Displaced Northwest Cargo

Thu Aug 18, 2005 1:02 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 2):
Sounds like it's time to dismantle this union.



Quoting B744F (Reply 6):
They are just making a statement that they put their fellow airline workers before anything else, personally I think that's fantastic.



Quoting UPSMD11 (Reply 7):
FedEx has a unionized pilot base as well.

The UPS pilots negotiated this policy in their last collective bargaining agreement. In other words, UPS management agreed to this years ago. The UPS pilots are simply enforcing their contract that was mutually agreed upon my labor and management.

And the air division of UPS is exrtremely profitable. UPS won't suffer because of this decision.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
UPS Pilot
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UPS Pilots Won't Fly Displaced Northwest Cargo

Thu Aug 18, 2005 1:14 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 40):
Well, UPS is actually a trucking company, who owns an airline. So, put the cargo on the trucks, and replace any pilot who refuses to fly any cargo that must go by air.

There are thousands of pilots out of a job, who will fly for UPS.

Remember, unions state with the same "u" that useless does.

Try trucking freight to and from Asia. Asia is the money maker for NW, UPS, Fed Ex and others.

Why is UPS being singled out when the ALPA which represents the NW pilots also represents Fed Ex, Atlas, ASTAR (DHL), Gemini, Kelowna, Kitty Hawk and Polar. These ALPA members will not fly struck Northwest goods.

There are too many armchair pilots and CEO's here.

Remember Unions start with "U" the same "U" as UPS. A Union company since 1907 who is the largest union employer and most profitable business in the industry.
 
RyanAFAMSP
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RE: UPS Pilots Won't Fly Displaced Northwest Cargo

Thu Aug 18, 2005 4:33 am

Congratulations and thank you to the UPS pilots for stepping up to the plate, and helping out their colleagues at NW in what is certainly a difficult and challenging time. This is just the kind of pressure the NW management needs to come back to the table and work with AMFA toward and equitable agreement. UPS is a strong company at the top of its game, and union labor makes that continue to happen every day. The UPS pilots get it that everyone must be vigilant to protect that legacy - and the living wage jobs, pensions, and health coverage that come with it.

There is a lot of anti-union vitriol on this site, but for most of us who currently or in the past have done front line airline jobs, we get that strong unions are key to survival in this industry.

Again, thanks so much for the courage and integrity UPS pilots.
 
frequentflyer
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RE: UPS Pilots Won't Fly Displaced Northwest Cargo

Thu Aug 18, 2005 5:37 am

Well after reading this thread, I am starting to think, Man those guys (Union) are convinced progress relies on their being unionized and on the contributions of unions to the Business. And to safety. And too their well-being. And to get overhead bins. And seat belts. And so forth.

As much I am for workers' rights, I have to admit I am skeptical.
I am as much for Business protection.

I respect your opinions, however bad "unioning" may crash Businesses if and while too focused on the defense of some interests, and being blind in front to said Business difficulties.

Why is it SO difficult to think that a Union should also be a tool dedicated to Business protection, not only Personnel protection?

And Yes, that may include some compromises along the way. Like, some financial efforts.

I realize we all love this Airline Business here in this forum, but also that we might disagree on the ways to protect it, and the Industry's personel.

Happy Flying All

P
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lowrider
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RE: UPS Pilots Won't Fly Displaced Northwest Cargo

Thu Aug 18, 2005 5:42 am

Quoting Frequentflyer (Reply 45):
Why is it SO difficult to think that a Union should also be a tool dedicated to Business protection, not only Personnel protection?

To a certain extent, business protection IS personal protection, but that idea has its limits. The company's management team is there to ensure the protection of the business, first and foremost.
Proud OOTSK member
 
airlinelover
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RE: UPS Pilots Won't Fly Displaced Northwest Cargo

Thu Aug 18, 2005 6:06 am

Quoting NWAFA (Reply 41):
NWA has what all the other airlines have (With the exception of UA) that is PACIFIC. So trust me, mark my words, August 17, 2005, NWA will NOT be going anywhere!

Let's see.. It's August 17, 2005 now and NORTHWEST IS STILL IN THE AIR! How do you explain this??

While this is a really idiotic move by UPS and FedEx, there will be other companies ITCHING To pick up some of the cargo. DHL... Kalitta.. and more... So if the 2 biggest decide to play it that way, let them. Their loss..

On another note, The pilots want more $$, the mechanics want more $$, the F/A's want more $$.. But havent they VOTED to have these lower salaries in teh first place?!?! (Serious question, so much shit has been going on about unions and contracts it is difficult to keep track of it all)

This does not seem to be a case like sports players wanting more millions added on to their already overpaid salaries, these are hard-working men and women who have had to compromise time and time again to keep flying.

One of the truest things in this post is that there ARE thousands of unemployed pilots, f/a's and probably mechanincs who would JUMP At the chance to get back in the air if something happened..

Good luck NW, and the unions..

Chris
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LHZXF
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RE: UPS Pilots Won't Fly Displaced Northwest Cargo

Thu Aug 18, 2005 6:22 am

I don't know the full background to this thread though i'll take the chance of getting shot down and throw my 2cents in. If an airline (NW) wont move cargo which freight forwarders will give cargo to an airline (NW) to move if they know the cargo wont fly??

After all the purpose of airfreight is to move cargo from point A to point B generally in the quickest possible time, giving cargo to an airline that's on strike is no way of achieving this goal.

I appreciate NW has a mighty network and changing to other carriers may prove difficult with all other freight forwarders doing the same but I cant think of any reason why any company would even attempt to ship on NW flights knowing the cargo wont move until the strike is resolved and operations return to normal.

Like I said I don't know the full background to this though I'm sure if I'm off the mark I'll be corrected soon enough.
 
ACdreamliner
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RE: UPS Pilots Won't Fly Displaced Northwest Cargo

Thu Aug 18, 2005 6:26 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 35):
And since we already have an overcapacity issue with US airlines, some of them need to die off, and this is a good opportunity.

Honestly, When will people get over this. We are at or above pre 9/11 loads, and under any other circumstance the airlines would be in boom times. Its high fuel costs and bloody unions holding airlines back (Air Canada 787/777 fiasco, need i say more).

Any airline that goes down, will be because of the 2 above factors, not loads.
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