Cory6188
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How Are CO's New Routes Doing?

Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:35 pm

As most of us know, CO launched a pretty aggressive international expansion this past year, with new routes to HAM, TXL, ARN, BFS, BRS, and PEK. DEL is coming in November, and they're now pushing to start EZE once they get DOT permission.

Since we haven't really heard anything about the performance of these routes, I was wondering if anyone knows anything about their success. Has PEK turned out to be the cash cow that they anticipated it would be? How are future bookings looking on DEL? What about the other European cities? I would be very curious to hear how things are going.
 
ikramerica
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RE: How Are CO's New Routes Doing?

Thu Aug 18, 2005 12:09 am

HAM was full when I flew it. I asked some Berlin pax at EWR (you forgot Berlin), and they said it was full, too. Both had a fair number of Germans on it, which I would say is a good sign.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
fraT
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RE: How Are CO's New Routes Doing?

Thu Aug 18, 2005 12:16 am

I think the real test comes after the summer high season. To fill the planes during the summer is not that difficult (at least in Europe nearly every airline flying to North America is full at the moment).
AFAIK CO has reduced the Berlin flight to 6 times a week already for the winter.
 
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mbm3
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RE: How Are CO's New Routes Doing?

Thu Aug 18, 2005 12:39 am

Judging on the $288+ fare sale from EWR-BRS I would imagine that this route is not doing all that great. I took these flights in May (on another special) and they seemed about 80% full in back and less than 50% up front (including a handful of non-revs).
Let Me Tell You, Landing A 772ER Is Harder Than It Looks!
 
RCS763AV
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RE: How Are CO's New Routes Doing?

Thu Aug 18, 2005 1:37 am

What about CLO??? Are they flying it daily or 3x weekly?
 
dutchjet
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RE: How Are CO's New Routes Doing?

Thu Aug 18, 2005 2:15 am

From what I have heard, all new services to Europe are doing well and have met or exceeded expectations, with the exception of Bristol which got off to a rather slow start. However, it seems that loads on the BRS service have improved as the summer has progressed....the fare sale has helped of course, but the super low fares are only available ex-US, and were put into place to try to balance the loads. Upon launch, it seems that the BRS flights were doing OK with pax originating in the UK, but not doing well with pax originating in the US.....my guess is that many in the US are not exactly sure where BRS airport is and are not aware of the route. Per good sources, advanced booking on European routes for the lower-demand winter period are exceeding expectations at the moment with a few exceptions (one of which is suprisingly the EWR-AMS route which just got cut back to one flight per day for the winter season).

Beijing got off to a reasonable start, its far too soon to make any conclusions, longhaul routes such as EWR-PEK need some time to build - the same will be true of the Dehli flight.

By the way, look for lots of 753s on EWR-carib services this winter.
 
CO757bos2iah
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RE: How Are CO's New Routes Doing?

Thu Aug 18, 2005 2:18 am

Todays BRS flight is booked to capacity , and only one non-rev,who won't be going anywhere.
Continental Airlines. We span the globe,because the world is your workplace.
 
semsem
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RE: How Are CO's New Routes Doing?

Thu Aug 18, 2005 2:18 am

A little over 1 year ago they started flying to Geneva and it was full in both directions in February and my cousin said it was full in May when she went.
 
flyinfroggie
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RE: How Are CO's New Routes Doing?

Thu Aug 18, 2005 2:26 am

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 4):
What about CLO??? Are they flying it daily or 3x weekly?

Trying to book a thursday flight to Cali, Colombia from Houston in October on Continental returned a message that they're only flying three times a week.
 
klwright69
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RE: How Are CO's New Routes Doing?

Thu Aug 18, 2005 2:46 am

I think the low fares to BRS are just a way to build the route and the market. This is not a sign of weakness or failure. EWR-BRS is a novel market, with low familiarity. Of course it would have a slow start. But I doubt CO would have launched the route if it were a complete dud with no potential. CO has always done well in the UK.
 
MAH4546
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RE: How Are CO's New Routes Doing?

Thu Aug 18, 2005 2:56 am

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 4):
What about CLO??? Are they flying it daily or 3x weekly?

Reduced to 3x weekly in the fall. Will go back to daily from mid-December to early February, than 4x weekly until the summer.

It has done so-so - not a diaster, but not a hit. They should have done it from Newark for better results.
a.
 
Joost
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RE: How Are CO's New Routes Doing?

Thu Aug 18, 2005 3:28 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 5):
one of which is suprisingly the EWR-AMS route which just got cut back to one flight per day for the winter season

How surprising is that? CO used to send passengers travelling to ARN, OSL, TXL, HAM and BRS via AMS/KL. Now they offer non-stop connections. It should only be logical that fewer people are traveling on the AMS-EWR leg.

By what aircraft is the AMS route flown this winter? Will it be the 772 again, like last winter, or will they stey with a 764? The AMS-EWR route will have more capacity anyway when KL replaces its 763 by 332 service.
 
dutchjet
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RE: How Are CO's New Routes Doing?

Thu Aug 18, 2005 6:02 am

Quoting Joost (Reply 11):

How surprising is that? CO used to send passengers travelling to ARN, OSL, TXL, HAM and BRS via AMS/KL. Now they offer non-stop connections. It should only be logical that fewer people are traveling on the AMS-EWR leg.

By what aircraft is the AMS route flown this winter? Will it be the 772 again, like last winter, or will they stey with a 764? The AMS-EWR route will have more capacity anyway when KL replaces its 763 by 332 service.

You raise a good point concerning connections at AMS, but due to the KL/CO relationship, I thought that two daily flights could be maintained year round - guess I was wrong.

EWR-AMS this summer is a 764 + 762; for the winter, the plan was a 764 + 752 (752 leaving AMS in the morning and leaving EWR about 1730) but now there will only be one flight per day with the 764. The 772s that flew EWR-AMS (and EWR-MAN) are now visiting Beijing.
 
ramerinianair
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RE: How Are CO's New Routes Doing?

Thu Aug 18, 2005 6:11 am

and they're now pushing to start EZE once they get DOT permission.
IF they get the DOT's permission. They are not the only fish in the sea!!!
SR
W N = my Worst Nightmare!!!!!
 
dutchjet
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RE: How Are CO's New Routes Doing?

Thu Aug 18, 2005 6:18 am

Quoting RamerinianAir (Reply 13):
and they're now pushing to start EZE once they get DOT permission.
IF they get the DOT's permission. They are not the only fish in the sea!!!
SR

Its likely that CO will get authority to open the IAH-EZE route.......IAH-EZE is a new connection and will be the only service from an airport west of the Mississippi to Argentina, the flight will also be convenient for pax travelling from the US west coast to Argentina. The authorities favor new city pair connections, especially innovative ones, on the basis of pax convenience and choice. I realize that DL has also applied to open a JFK-EZE service, but JFK-EZE is already served by other airlines including AA. CO will get this one......since they will be only fish in the sea from the western portion of the US to Argentina.
 
HT
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RE: How Are CO's New Routes Doing?

Thu Aug 18, 2005 6:21 am

TXL: In other threads it was indicated that the flight TXL - EWR had to make fuel-stops enroute (Gander was one place mentioned) due to insufficient range for the load on the B752 WITH winglets. Alternative would have been to deny boarding to 20-25 pax. Though CO could fly all the pax, that came along with additional charges (making me wonder if they can make a profit on such flights).
Also the situation with strong winds will become more frequently in the winter ... Time will tell what the pax think about (unscheduled) fuelstops and missing onward connections.
-HT
Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
 
Christa
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RE: How Are CO's New Routes Doing?

Thu Aug 18, 2005 6:22 am

I believe that the EWR-BRS service isn't doing as well as they thought it would. The current loads are around 70% which are ok, but no where near CO expected.

I hope the route survives as it is good for people in Wales & South West England. However, I think the service should have gone to CWL.

Regards,
Chris
Croeso i Faes Awyr Rhyngwladol Caerdydd - Welcome to Cardiff International Airport
 
dutchjet
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RE: How Are CO's New Routes Doing?

Thu Aug 18, 2005 6:31 am

Quoting HT (Reply 15):
TXL: In other threads it was indicated that the flight TXL - EWR had to make fuel-stops enroute (Gander was one place mentioned) due to insufficient range for the load on the B752 WITH winglets. Alternative would have been to deny boarding to 20-25 pax. Though CO could fly all the pax, that came along with additional charges (making me wonder if they can make a profit on such flights).
Also the situation with strong winds will become more frequently in the winter ... Time will tell what the pax think about (unscheduled) fuelstops and missing onward connections.
-HT

There have been a couple of fuel stops for the Berlin flight in recent days - but the cause was an unusual combination of high head winds and lots of traffic and weather in the NYC area (plus full loads) that caused the stops. Some longer range aircraft operated by other carriers also made fuel stops during the same period. CO did not want to deny boarding to any pax simply because during this very very busy travel period, reaccommodating them on other transatlantic flights (on other carriers) was nearly impossible. Of course pax dont like fuel stops, but CO does do a rather good job of reaccommodation for missed connections at EWR - in most cases, its done automatically and pax just need to pick up a new boarding card.

Dont look for fuel stops to become a regular thing, even during the northern winter....loads are generally lighter and weather (barring snow storms) is not such an issue in the NE United States during the winter months and, as stated, the winds were expectional for a few days.
 
commavia
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RE: How Are CO's New Routes Doing?

Thu Aug 18, 2005 6:37 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 14):
IAH-EZE is a new connection and will be the only service from an airport west of the Mississippi to Argentina

Slight correction -- AA already flies DFW-EZE.
 
ScottishLaddie
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RE: How Are CO's New Routes Doing?

Thu Aug 18, 2005 7:08 am

EWR-EDI has just been upgraded to daily B762 for this winter, up from 5x weekly B752 last winter.
 
goCOgo
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RE: How Are CO's New Routes Doing?

Thu Aug 18, 2005 10:14 am

This CO new route question would be better asked in Feb. In the summer, especially to Europe, ain't nothin' doing bad.

Quoting HT (Reply 15):
TXL: In other threads it was indicated that the flight TXL - EWR had to make fuel-stops enroute (Gander was one place mentioned) due to insufficient range for the load on the B752 WITH winglets. Alternative would have been to deny boarding to 20-25 pax.

During the winter, no doubt most days they will have 20-25 empty seats anyway. Hopefully (for CO at least) frequent NYC-TXL passengers aren't getting pissed off too much and running to DL, how have no problems on their JFK-TXL route with the 763. Of course, during the winter, DL will likely have a lot more than 25 empty seats.

Quoting Christa (Reply 16):
I hope the route survives as it is good for people in Wales & South West England. However, I think the service should have gone to CWL.

Would be nice to have Wales service. That may have even been an eventual plan. But I expect CO to be a little more cautious in that region given the BRS loads.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 5):
Beijing got off to a reasonable start, its far too soon to make any conclusions, longhaul routes such as EWR-PEK need some time to build

Given that this is the first US flag addition to China in quite some time and is flying from the largest O&D market, I would have expected this route to be a winner from day one. It's unfortunate they aren't doing better.
"Why you fly is your business, how you fly is ours"
 
DeltaMIA
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RE: How Are CO's New Routes Doing?

Thu Aug 18, 2005 10:25 am

Quoting GoCOgo (Reply 20):
During the winter, no doubt most days they will have 20-25 empty seats anyway. Hopefully (for CO at least) frequent NYC-TXL passengers aren't getting pissed off too much and running to DL, how have no problems on their JFK-TXL route with the 763. Of course, during the winter, DL will likely have a lot more than 25 empty seats.

Why is that? The difference in capacity isn't that much. DL's 763 only has 12 more Y class seats. Assuming once each carrier hits 125 Y class passengers CO will be full and DL can carry 50 more if necessary. Just because CO hits that 125 mark doesn't mean the flight is profitable by any means. Especially if it has to make any enroute stop.
It's a big building with patients, but that's not important right now.
 
Goldentail
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RE: How Are CO's New Routes Doing?

Thu Aug 18, 2005 1:46 pm

The TXL flight is a dispatch challenge for sure! However, I have dispatch the flight for us, and I can tell you from personal experience that CO does their level best to avoid fuel stopping this or any other long range B757 flight out of Europe or Sweden. There are numerous issues that must be looked at daily which can play into the need to stop or not. However it should be noted that on most days where fuel stops were done, Gander was able to turn the aircraft it 20-25 minutes, and the net impact was the flight arrived into EWR only 30-40 minutes late on average. With that, appropriate holds were set up for connections, or protection on later flights were made. The feedback I have heard from our customer service coordinators were that the negative impact to our customers was minimal in most cases, and most made their original scheduled connecting flights.

[Edited 2005-08-18 07:11:38]
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HT
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RE: How Are CO's New Routes Doing?

Thu Aug 18, 2005 2:25 pm

Quoting Goldentail (Reply 22):
Europe or Sweden.

Sweden is part of Europe ... Big grin

Quoting Goldentail (Reply 22):
Gander was able to turn the aircraft it 20-25 minutes, and the net impact was the flight arrived into EWR only 30-40 minutes late on average. With that, appropriate holds were set up for connections, or protection on later flights were made. The feedback I have heard from our customer service coordinators were that the negative impact to our customers was minimal in most cases, and most made their original scheduled connecting flights.

Very good to hear ! I feared the situation was worse.
-HT
Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
 
cadet93
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RE: How Are CO's New Routes Doing?

Thu Aug 18, 2005 8:49 pm

I am doing the EWR-TXL flight on the 31st.....back on the 5th. I will let you know if we have the fuel stop. It is a full flight on both days, being that it is the American holiday- Labor Day.

I also talked to a a FA for CO and they are being told to be ready for 10 more over seas destinations next year again. They are being told that the unprofifatable markets inside the U.S. will be trimmed way back and the overseas markets will be given priority. ( how is a 737-500 gonna make the flight? I dont know LOL)
 
klwright69
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RE: How Are CO's New Routes Doing?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 2:00 am

Quoting GoCOgo (Reply 20):
Given that this is the first US flag addition to China in quite some time and is flying from the largest O&D market, I would have expected this route to be a winner from day one.

Maybe exactly because it is the first addition in so many years, that is why it is off to a such slow start. It'll take time to build brand equity and loyalty. But in the LONG Run it'll be a jewel for sure!!

Will BRS service last? I hope they give it time to develop. Will NCL be coming on board? As not to be outdone by AA at JFK.
 
MAH4546
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RE: How Are CO's New Routes Doing?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 2:12 am

Quoting Klwright69 (Reply 25):
Will BRS service last? I hope they give it time to develop. Will NCL be coming on board? As not to be outdone by AA at JFK.

A lot of these services start thanks to revenue guarantees and help with start-up costs. CO isn't going to get any financial help from NCL.
a.
 
Christa
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RE: How Are CO's New Routes Doing?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 2:21 am

Quoting GoCOgo (Reply 20):
Would be nice to have Wales service. That may have even been an eventual plan. But I expect CO to be a little more cautious in that region given the BRS loads.

I hope that CO see sense by transferring the service to CWL. I believe that the route has better prospects at CWL rather than at BRS. The CWL service has more chance of attracting tourists from the USA to Wales rather than to the South West of England. The USA also has a lot of Industrial connections with Wales as well as family connections. Don't forget that CWL has a far longer runway than BRS so if need be a larger aircraft than the 752 could be used on the route.

Regards,
Chris
Croeso i Faes Awyr Rhyngwladol Caerdydd - Welcome to Cardiff International Airport
 
upsmd11
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RE: How Are CO's New Routes Doing?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 2:50 am

Quoting Cory6188 (Thread starter):As most of us know, CO launched a pretty aggressive international expansion this past year, with new routes to HAM, TXL, ARN, BFS, BRS, and PEK. DEL is coming in November, and they're now pushing to start EZE once they get DOT permission.



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 1):HAM was full when I flew it. I asked some Berlin pax at EWR (you forgot Berlin), and they said it was full, too. Both had a fair number of Germans on it, which I would say is a good sign.


TXL is Berlin, just as an FYI.

[Edited 2005-08-18 19:51:48]

[Edited 2005-08-18 19:52:32]
 
A340Spotter
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RE: How Are CO's New Routes Doing?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 3:04 am

Christa

For what it's worth, the BRS-EWR flight has operated nonstop every flight with no weight restrictions that come to mind, even with the short runway.

As for expansion, I've heard rumblings of about the same percentage this year to take place again next, but no cities or anything firm as of yet. Makes for more fun on the midnight shift international desks!

Jeffrey
"Irregardless, it's a Cat III airplane, we don't need an alternate!"

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