rpaillard
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Will AF Replace A340/300 Destroyed In Toronto?

Thu Aug 18, 2005 5:25 am

Hi all,

As far as I know, Airfrance resume service with a spare A340/300 after the crash in Toronto.

My question is simple : as the insurance will send money back, will AF go and buy a new A340/300 from Airbus ? Will they use the amount another way, for example in fleet renewal with another type ?

Sorry to ask such a bizarre question, but my background regarding this kind of concern is, well, weak Big grin
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dl021
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RE: Will AF Replace A340/300 Destroyed In Toronto?

Thu Aug 18, 2005 6:19 am

Speaking strictly my own opinion here, they won't replace the A-340 with another brand new one. They'll either buy a used one if they need that type capacity, or take the insurance money, pay off the passenger lawsuits that have already started, and perhaps use the rest to buy a different airplane in their fleet.
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Alitalia744
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RE: Will AF Replace A340/300 Destroyed In Toronto?

Thu Aug 18, 2005 6:21 am

given AF is in the process of beginning A340 retirement, I wouldn't expect the a/c to be replaced. more than likely, as DL021 said, they'll use the insurance money to help cover lawsuit costs and the remainder will hit the bottom line.
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dutchjet
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RE: Will AF Replace A340/300 Destroyed In Toronto?

Thu Aug 18, 2005 6:23 am

The A343 will not be replaced with another new or used A343 - there are newer and more versatile types available that are already part of the AF fleet. AF, depending upon its fleet planning, will eventually order additional A332s or 773ERs which will indirectly replace the lost A343.
 
ACdreamliner
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RE: Will AF Replace A340/300 Destroyed In Toronto?

Thu Aug 18, 2005 6:29 am

You do know that even if they have to pay this rediculace claim they have insurance to pay this ontop of the A340 pay out...
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Revelation
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RE: Will AF Replace A340/300 Destroyed In Toronto?

Thu Aug 18, 2005 6:36 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 1):
take the insurance money, pay off the passenger lawsuits that have already started

I would imagine they have "lawsuite insurance" too, no?
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ua777222
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RE: Will AF Replace A340/300 Destroyed In Toronto?

Thu Aug 18, 2005 6:43 am

IMO Air France will take their loss and move on. They'll cash in on their insurance, take care of the passengers, and continue to make a name for themselves while still changing the industry. What they'll show is that loosing an aircraft in a highly publisized crash won't stop them from their outstanding loads and fantastic service/product.

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ILOVEA340
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RE: Will AF Replace A340/300 Destroyed In Toronto?

Thu Aug 18, 2005 6:46 am

The settlement of the lawsuit is an insurance company one. This is why we rarely hear about the final deal. It´s not Air France´s doings.
 
TACAA320
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RE: Will AF Replace A340/300 Destroyed In Toronto?

Thu Aug 18, 2005 7:11 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 5):
I would imagine they have "lawsuite(sic) insurance" too, no?

Of course. They don´t need to take any insurance money for paying the lawsuits. They have "lawsuit insurance" for such purpose.
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mika
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RE: Will AF Replace A340/300 Destroyed In Toronto?

Thu Aug 18, 2005 7:42 am

I was wondering how they manage to keep up with the demand now since they are short on one A/C, what A/C is now rostered to the flights that the crashed one would have made originaly?
 
TGV
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RE: Will AF Replace A340/300 Destroyed In Toronto?

Thu Aug 18, 2005 8:54 am

Quoting Mika (Reply 9):
I was wondering how they manage to keep up with the demand now since they are short on one A/C, what A/C is now rostered to the flights that the crashed one would have made originaly?

Check this thread:
Cancellations As A Result Of Air France Crash?

and especially

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 13):
There won't be any cancellation due to a/c shortage :
AF was operating a fleet of 21 A343 (as 1 a/c, F-GLZB was sold earlier this year) but the summer program was built only for 19 aircraft.
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gmidy
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RE: Will AF Replace A340/300 Destroyed In Toronto?

Thu Aug 18, 2005 8:56 am

Bring Concorde back thats what i say!
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PADSpot
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RE: Will AF Replace A340/300 Destroyed In Toronto?

Thu Aug 18, 2005 9:09 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 5):
I would imagine they have "lawsuite insurance" too, no?

would assume they have a fully comprehensive cover. It pays for the aircraft and for passenger-related damage events of whatever type ...
 
N1120A
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RE: Will AF Replace A340/300 Destroyed In Toronto?

Thu Aug 18, 2005 10:18 am

Quoting Rpaillard (Thread starter):
will AF go and buy a new A340/300 from Airbus ?

Any replacement would likely be a 777

Quoting DL021 (Reply 1):
or take the insurance money, pay off the passenger lawsuits that have already started,

There are two different sets of insurance in this case. One is liability insurance, which airlines will carry in order to insure against possible liability to injured passengers. The other is equipment insurance, which is used to cover the loss of the aircraft and equipment aboard. Two different things. Also, given the set liability limits under international law (which governs this crash), that should be predetermined.
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avek00
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RE: Will AF Replace A340/300 Destroyed In Toronto?

Thu Aug 18, 2005 10:39 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 13):
Also, given the set liability limits under international law (which governs this crash), that should be predetermined.

The liability limits are not necessarily set in this case - the Montreal Convention, which supersedes the Warsaw Convention, eliminates liability caps if the airline is at fault in accident. If the AF pilots (or AF mechanics, if a mechanical problem with the plane existed) are found to be at fault, liability will be governed by the applicable tort laws of Canada, France, or the passenger's country of citizenship, depending upon where plaintiffs opt to file their claims.

[Edited 2005-08-18 03:39:42]
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rpaillard
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RE: Will AF Replace A340/300 Destroyed In Toronto?

Thu Aug 18, 2005 4:32 pm

Well, thanks all for this enlightenment  bigthumbsup 
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RayChuang
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RE: Will AF Replace A340/300 Destroyed In Toronto?

Thu Aug 18, 2005 10:22 pm

I think it's more likely that AF will NOT replace that A340-300, but instead rearrange their 777-200ER flight assignments so fairly soon we may see AF fly the 777-200ER on the CDG-YYZ route.

In fact, AF likes the 777-200ER and 777-300ER so much I wouldn't be surprised that fairly soon we see additional follow-on orders for the plane; AF likes the fact they can put in larger money-making premium passenger seating areas on the 777's than on the A340.
 
Joost
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RE: Will AF Replace A340/300 Destroyed In Toronto?

Thu Aug 18, 2005 10:31 pm

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 12):
would assume they have a fully comprehensive cover. It pays for the aircraft and for passenger-related damage events of whatever type ...

Would rather assume that they have very specific insurance for all different kinds of risk where they'd need insurance for. And companies decide for all different kind of aspects up to what level they want insurance. It is not the same of asking a quote for your holiday insurance.
 
ultrapig
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RE: Will AF Replace A340/300 Destroyed In Toronto?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 12:14 am

Also remember that the liability insruance probably has a large "retention" or deductible-maybe as much as $5m US. Becuase there were no deaths and because there are no reported serious dehabilitating injuries my guess is that the total loss will not exceed the deductible. Physically uninjured passengers probably will get an unsoliticted offer of $10k or so to execute a waiver-you do the math-Those who have some medical bills and a broken bone will get a bit more.
 
avek00
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RE: Will AF Replace A340/300 Destroyed In Toronto?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 1:09 am

Quoting Ultrapig (Reply 18):
Becuase there were no deaths and because there are no reported serious dehabilitating injuries my guess is that the total loss will not exceed the deductible.

Granted, no one was critically injured, but generally speaking, 'tis better to be dealing with dead plaintiffs than live ones - the dead ones can't testify to the horrors they experienced.
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Udo
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RE: Will AF Replace A340/300 Destroyed In Toronto?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 1:12 am

Quoting Avek00 (Reply 19):

Granted, no one was critically injured, but generally speaking, 'tis better to be dealing with dead plaintiffs than live ones - the dead ones can't testify to the horrors they experienced.

So you think it would be more comfortable to deal with plaintiffs who lost friends, relatives and their loved ones?


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avek00
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RE: Will AF Replace A340/300 Destroyed In Toronto?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 1:21 am

Quoting Udo (Reply 20):
So you think it would be more comfortable to deal with plaintiffs who lost friends, relatives and their loved ones?

It's not a thought - it's the truth, at least in American tort cases. While a jury is no doubt sympathetic to the tears of a bereaved relative whose loved one is gone, it is FAR more sympathetic to the live testimony of a victim who can relive the horrific events second-by-second and go into infinite detail about the after-effects suffered. It is weird, and contrary to what one might initially think, but it's the reason why legal eagles would generally suggest "burying the survivors" in the often-told aviation joke.
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wdleiser
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RE: Will AF Replace A340/300 Destroyed In Toronto?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 3:33 am

Quoting Udo (Reply 20):

He is using sarcasm. And he does have a point, the alive plaintiffs will now try and sue and get as much money as possible and then try and testify and talk about all their emotional trauma they received by the accident and how only a large sum of money will make it go away.
 
redflyer
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RE: Will AF Replace A340/300 Destroyed In Toronto?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 3:56 am

Quoting Wdleiser (Reply 22):
and then try and testify and talk about all their emotional trauma they received by the accident and how only a large sum of money will make it go away.



Quoting Avek00 (Reply 21):
While a jury is no doubt sympathetic to the tears of a bereaved relative whose loved one is gone, it is FAR more sympathetic to the live testimony of a victim who can relive the horrific events second-by-second and go into infinite detail about the after-effects suffered.

There's also the issue of injuries that may manifest themselves years from now - the sprained back that resulted from evacuating the aircraft and that may in a year or two result in a herniated disk requiring surgery, etc.
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