luisde8cd
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Venezuela MD82 Crash. Part 2. Shocking Facts

Fri Aug 19, 2005 11:31 am

Hey all,

Since the other thread http://www.airliners.net/discussions...eneral_aviation/read.main/2275237/ is very slow to load, I decided to create a new one.

I have some inside info to share with you all. I met a person who is a relative of one of my friends. That person lives in Maracaibo, Zulia State. That person is studying forensic medicine in Maracaibo and she got the "opportunity" to help with the autopsies of the bodies from the crash. She said that they identified 3 corpses who according to the pax manifest were seated in the back of the MD82. They presented no burns, they died of mutilation and "trimulation" (I dont know the correct translation) One of them had a "metal stick" stuck in the torso. She said many other things that I rather not recall... it was simply horrible. If those people weren't burned, I guess the plane wasnt on fire before it crashed as some witnesses said...

By the way... it was decided today that both engines will be shipped to Canada for an inspection. They said that the engine's manucfaturer is located in Canada... Were those engines P&W?

Luis

[Edited 2005-08-19 04:34:56]
 
hz747300
Posts: 1908
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RE: Venezuela MD82 Crash. Part 2. Shocking Facts

Fri Aug 19, 2005 11:37 am

Rather grotesque description, thank you very much.  yuck 

If the engines are on their way to Canada, they were most likely P&Ws. We do not hear about this crash much in Sydney though.
Keep on truckin'...
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Venezuela MD82 Crash. Part 2. Shocking Facts

Fri Aug 19, 2005 11:42 am

>> She said many other things that I rather not recall... it was simply horrible. If those people weren't burned, I guess the plane wasnt on fire before it crashed as some witnesses said...

Just because the fire did not propegate to the cabin does not mean one did not exist on the exterior. Upon the crash, a section of the fuselage (or rows of seat benches) could have been thrown clear of any post-crash fires.
 
Southamerica
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RE: Venezuela MD82 Crash. Part 2. Shocking Facts

Fri Aug 19, 2005 11:43 am

Another shocking fact:

This MD-82, after completing its journey to Martinique, was supposed to return to Colombia, specifically to San Andres, to take some passengers from the island to several mainland cities...

After the accident, many low-budget travellers were stranded in San Andres island having no way to return to their home-towns, and shocked by the fact that it could have been them the ones inside the plane.

Well, the FAC [Colombian Air Force] designated one of its aircraft to bring all those people back, and, as a freaky, bizarre coincidence, the plane had to declare an emergency upon landing in MDE because of what the media described to be "serious trouble with landing gear".

The plane was kept in the air for a while longer, and was diverted to BOG, were it finally landed safely.

_____________________________________

Here's a photograph of the aircraft in MDE, the evening before the accident.


MyAviation.net photo:
Click here for bigger photo!
Photo © Andrés Dallimonti Restrepo







SOUTHAMERICA

[Edited 2005-08-19 04:45:33]
 
legacy135
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RE: Venezuela MD82 Crash. Part 2. Shocking Facts

Sat Aug 20, 2005 1:22 am

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 3):
Well, the FAC [Colombian Air Force] designated one of its aircraft to bring all those people back

I am positively impressed about the Colombian Governement who organized together with the Armed Forces the transport for those stranded passengers  thumbsup 
I guess some of our European Governements could take this as an example. I fear, over here they would see the transport back in the responsibility of the airline and the tour operator and only provide such a service after several days. Well done Colombianos!
 
bongo
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RE: Venezuela MD82 Crash. Part 2. Shocking Facts

Sat Aug 20, 2005 1:34 am

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 3):
Well, the FAC [Colombian Air Force] designated one of its aircraft to bring all those people back, and, as a freaky, bizarre coincidence, the plane had to declare an emergency upon landing in MDE because of what the media described to be "serious trouble with landing gear".

The plane was kept in the air for a while longer, and was diverted to BOG, were it finally landed safely.

Southa: Why they did not land in MDE even with an emergency?
MDE: First airport in the Americas visited by the A380!
 
CM767
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RE: Venezuela MD82 Crash. Part 2. Shocking Facts

Sat Aug 20, 2005 1:40 am

Quoting Legacy135 (Reply 4):
I am positively impressed about the Colombian government who organized together with the Armed Forces the transport for those stranded passengers

I am not impressed with Panamanian and Colombian authorities for allowing West to operate in the first place.
But The Best Thing God Has Created Is A New Day
 
ACDC8
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RE: Venezuela MD82 Crash. Part 2. Shocking Facts

Sat Aug 20, 2005 1:50 am

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 3):
Here's a photograph of the aircraft in MDE, the evening before the accident.

Not that I'm superstitious, but interesting to note that in the picture you provided. It was stated that the aircraft was parked at Gate 13.
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
 
Boeing757/767
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RE: Venezuela MD82 Crash. Part 2. Shocking Facts

Sat Aug 20, 2005 1:50 am

Those engines were made by P&W in Connecticut, not Canada. P&W Canada makes small engines.
Free-thinking, left-leaning secularist
 
bongo
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RE: Venezuela MD82 Crash. Part 2. Shocking Facts

Sat Aug 20, 2005 1:52 am

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 7):
Not that I'm superstitious, but interesting to note that in the picture you provided. It was stated that the aircraft was parked at Gate 13.

Many airplanes park at the gate 13 every day and 99.9999 % are succesful...so I don't really think this was the reason why the plane crashed.
MDE: First airport in the Americas visited by the A380!
 
Southamerica
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RE: Venezuela MD82 Crash. Part 2. Shocking Facts

Sat Aug 20, 2005 2:01 am

Quoting Bongo (Reply 5):
Why they did not land in MDE even with an emergency?

I honestly have no idea. Once they aborted landing in Medellin, they were simply told to continue to Bogota, were all the emergency measures were taking place. The plane landed fine at the end.

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 7):
Not that I'm superstitious, but interesting to note that in the picture you provided. It was stated that the aircraft was parked at Gate 13.

Good catch, and indeed, it's a bit strange. In Medellin, international gates are 11, 12, 13 and 14.

Gate 12 is always used by AA, and Gate 14 is always used by CM. Gate 11 and 13 are used jointly by AV and West...

...AV's 757 from MIA usually arrives in gate 13, but that night, as you see in the picture, it was parked in 11 leaving 13 for the crashed plane.



SOUTHAMERICA
 
IDAWA
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RE: Venezuela MD82 Crash. Part 2. Shocking Facts

Sat Aug 20, 2005 2:18 am

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 10):
Quoting Bongo (Reply 5):
Why they did not land in MDE even with an emergency?

I honestly have no idea. Once they aborted landing in Medellin, they were simply told to continue to Bogota, were all the emergency measures were taking place. The plane landed fine at the end.

If the problem wasn't supposed to be much serious, it's likely because - probably - BOG is a maintenance base for the Air Force and MDE not, or similar reasons.

It if was supposed to pose a threat on the safety of the aircraft, it may have been due to better conditions (fine weather, long runway, better rescue equipment....) in BOG than in MDE.

I-DAWA
Flown on: 319, 320, 321, 340, 727, 737, 747, 757, 767, 777, DC9, D10, M11, M80, 146, EM2, BEH, CRJ, DH8, L4T.
 
legacy135
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RE: Venezuela MD82 Crash. Part 2. Shocking Facts

Sat Aug 20, 2005 2:30 am

Quoting CM767 (Reply 6):
I am not impressed with Panamanian and Colombian authorities for allowing West to operate in the first place.

This may be right if the rumors we can hear at the moment are going to be confirmed. But it's another story and there is more room for work in this aspect with quite a number of operators over the world. Unfortunately.
 
ACDC8
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RE: Venezuela MD82 Crash. Part 2. Shocking Facts

Sat Aug 20, 2005 2:35 am

Quoting Bongo (Reply 9):
Many airplanes park at the gate 13 every day and 99.9999 % are succesful...so I don't really think this was the reason why the plane crashed.

Neither did I. I just mentioned that it's interesting.
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
 
dforce1
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RE: Venezuela MD82 Crash. Part 2. Shocking Facts

Sat Aug 20, 2005 4:01 am

Does anyone have a picture of the Colombian air force plane that was used to transport the stranded passengers? What type of plane was it?
 
tattvc
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RE: Venezuela MD82 Crash. Part 2. Shocking Facts

Sat Aug 20, 2005 4:29 am

If there's one thing my parents have learned about eye witness reports, people will say things that didn't even happen- just to get on TV. Many have said "the engines were on fire while the plane was still in the air" when the crash had nothing to do with fire, and there was no fire whatsoever.
Just my .002c-

TatTVC
"Your time is limited- don't waste it living someone else's life" -Steve Jobs
 
luisde8cd
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RE: Venezuela MD82 Crash. Part 2. Shocking Facts

Sat Aug 20, 2005 4:35 am

Quoting DFORCE1 (Reply 14):
Does anyone have a picture of the Colombian air force plane that was used to transport the stranded passengers? What type of plane was it?

It was a 707. Former presidential transport plane.

Saludos desde Caracas,
Luis
 
legacy135
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RE: Venezuela MD82 Crash. Part 2. Shocking Facts

Sat Aug 20, 2005 4:44 am

We faced the Helios crash in ATH just two days before the West crash. There is another factor that is shocking me:

Going to www.flyhelios.com we can see a series of press releases and condolences, expressed by the company and the management. Going to www.west.com.co nothing of it! Although I think they are not even operational by this time, it showed availability for the next day on BOG-RNG. I could not find any information on the companies page of the accident, no condolences nothing! What people do rule this company?
 
RICARIZA
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RE: Venezuela MD82 Crash. Part 2. Shocking Facts

Sat Aug 20, 2005 4:54 am

Quoting Bongo (Reply 5):
Southa: Why they did not land in MDE even with an emergency?



Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 10):
I honestly have no idea. Once they aborted landing in Medellin, they were simply told to continue to Bogota, were all the emergency measures were taking place. The plane landed fine at the end.



Quoting DFORCE1 (Reply 14):
Does anyone have a picture of the Colombian air force plane that was used to transport the stranded passengers? What type of plane was it?

The FAC (Colombian Air Force) plane was a Boeing 707 with 154 passengers on board, it was re-routed preventively to land in case of emergency, in BOG. This was the old presidential airplane, that it should have landed in Medellín but displayed an abnormal indication in the hydraulic system in its front when making the landing procedure in the airport Jose Maria Córdova but it landed safely without problems in BOG, where the travelers were taken to a Fokker and a Hercules in order to be taken to their final destiny in Medellin and Cali.


The Head of Air operations of the FAC, General Guzman, said that "Those systems have alternating ones that allow that the airplane operates normally, and therefore the flight never was in risk ".

The operation of support to the passengers of the company West
Caribbean will continue with other aircrafts, while the FAC -007 is currently being checked by the FAC mechanics.
I miss ACES, I am proud of AVIANCA & I am loyal to AMERICAN
 
Southamerica
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RE: Venezuela MD82 Crash. Part 2. Shocking Facts

Sat Aug 20, 2005 5:16 am

Quoting RICARIZA (Reply 18):
The FAC (Colombian Air Force) plane was a Boeing 707 with 154 passengers on board, it was re-routed preventively to land in case of emergency, in BOG.

The plane had 184 passengers onboard. It still isn't quite clear as to why exactly was the plane diverted to BOG; the emergency organisms in MDE could have equally hadled the situation.



SOUTHAMERICA
 
bongo
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RE: Venezuela MD82 Crash. Part 2. Shocking Facts

Sat Aug 20, 2005 5:19 am

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 19):
the emergency organisms in MDE could have equally hadled the situation.

I agree with you...maybe they needed a longer runway? Better weather in BOG?
AV757...can you tell us about this?
MDE: First airport in the Americas visited by the A380!
 
legacy135
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RE: Venezuela MD82 Crash. Part 2. Shocking Facts

Sat Aug 20, 2005 5:20 am

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 19):
The plane had 184 passengers onboard. It still isn't quite clear as to why exactly was the plane diverted to BOG; the emergency organisms in MDE could have equally hadled the situation.

Maybe they have their hangar and the spare parts in BOG. If we encounter a technical problem to an airport close to homebase and there is not an urgency, we do prefer to fly to the homebase and ferry the passengers back. This may result much simpler and cheaper operationswise.
 
bongo
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RE: Venezuela MD82 Crash. Part 2. Shocking Facts

Sat Aug 20, 2005 5:24 am

Quoting Legacy135 (Reply 21):
If we encounter a technical problem to an airport close to homebase and there is not an urgency, we do prefer to fly to the homebase and ferry the passengers back. This may result much simpler and cheaper operationswise.

I think is cheaper to send the spare part from BOG to MDE instead of ferry 180 passengers on different airplanes.
MDE: First airport in the Americas visited by the A380!
 
Southamerica
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RE: Venezuela MD82 Crash. Part 2. Shocking Facts

Sat Aug 20, 2005 5:29 am

Quoting Legacy135 (Reply 21):
Maybe they have their hangar and the spare parts in BOG. If we encounter a technical problem to an airport close to homebase and there is not an urgency, we do prefer to fly to the homebase and ferry the passengers back.

Sounds logical, but it's still strange considering that MDE is one of the few airports in Colombia which has a fully-operative FAC base sharing the same airport area with commercial operations [similar to BOG with Eldorado-Catam].



SOUTHAMERICA
 
hmmmm...
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RE: Venezuela MD82 Crash. Part 2. Shocking Facts

Sat Aug 20, 2005 5:31 am

Why is it interesting that a plane that parked at a gate 13 crashed?

Don't you find it equally interesting that all the other planes that park at gates 13 all over the world, do not crash? Your observation can only be interesting if you are implying that planes that park at gates numbered 13 should not crash, and since this one did, that therefore constitutes something that is "interesting."

The only legitimately interesting observation that anyone can make regarding gates numbered 13, is if No plane using that number has ever crashed. THAT would be interesting!
An optimist robs himself of the joy of being pleasantly surprised
 
legacy135
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RE: Venezuela MD82 Crash. Part 2. Shocking Facts

Sat Aug 20, 2005 5:35 am

Quoting Bongo (Reply 22):
I think is cheaper to send the spare part from BOG to MDE instead of ferry 180 passengers on different airplanes.

I don't know for this case. Just keep in mind, you won't only need a couple of screw drivers. You don't have to change a lot on an aircraft you will face the situation that it only works with special tools and a hangar with the equipement. In this case here, a B707, I don't know if those tools are still around everywhere.

Everything in maintenance is very expensive. I just had a meeting today with Embraer, about the Espresso machine on the aircraft. The problems, this stupid part brakes once a month, needs to be replaced and only one product on this planet is certified to be installed. You can go to any hardwarestore and buy the cheapest Espressomaker you find. It will be better, offer you more possibilities (Espresso, Cappucino, Steam etc) and never break. Do you want to know how much the certified one costs? It is 17'000 $ US

So you see, for what you save with a small number of parts the costs for a flight like the one BOG-RNG is covered rather quickly, in addition as I can see, a number of passengers went on to CLO, so there was the need for another flight anyhow.
 
RICARIZA
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RE: Venezuela MD82 Crash. Part 2. Shocking Facts

Sat Aug 20, 2005 5:35 am

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 19):
The plane had 184 passengers onboard. It still isn't quite clear as to why exactly was the plane diverted to BOG; the emergency organisms in MDE could have equally hadled the situation.

Right, it was a typo, 184 Pax.

What I understood, is that having in mind that the plane had those errors, they decided to go to BOG where they have other aircrafts to take the pax to their final destinations.
I miss ACES, I am proud of AVIANCA & I am loyal to AMERICAN
 
Southamerica
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RE: Venezuela MD82 Crash. Part 2. Shocking Facts

Sat Aug 20, 2005 6:10 am

Quoting Legacy135 (Reply 25):
So you see, for what you save with a small number of parts the costs for a flight like the one BOG-RNG is covered rather quickly, in addition as I can see, a number of passengers went on to CLO, so there was the need for another flight anyhow.

Your point make sense, just bare in mind that there is no such thing as RNG; the three-letter code for Jose Maria Cordova International Airport is MDE.  wink 


SOUTHAMERICA
 
legacy135
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RE: Venezuela MD82 Crash. Part 2. Shocking Facts

Sat Aug 20, 2005 6:37 am

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 27):
Your point make sense, just bare in mind that there is no such thing as RNG; the three-letter code for Jose Maria Cordova International Airport is MDE.

You are right. I am always mixing VOR identifiers, IATA codes and my own creations  Wink ..... and then in Medellin are two airports and I never know which one is which one Big grin but I guess we both are talking about THAT one....

Kind regards from BRN (ICAO code LSZB)
Legacy135
 
757MDE
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RE: Venezuela MD82 Crash. Part 2. Shocking Facts

Sat Aug 20, 2005 9:31 am

This is the 707 used by the Colombian Air Force for transporting passengers from ADZ to MDE and that finally landed at BOG due to the abnormal hydraulic signal.
Model: Boeing 707-373C
Registration: FAC-1201
MSN: 19716
Line No.:644
Delivery Date: 1967-11-13
Engine Model: JT3D-3B
SELCAL: BC-EG
Bought to Korean Airlines in the early 80s (1984 I think) when it spotted HL-7425 as registration.
Ex presidential plane (along with the F-28, both now replaced by the 737)
Now serving as refueller and mass transporter.


MyAviation.net photo:
Click here for bigger photo!
Photo © Andrés Ramírez



In the picture spotting "Zeus 20 años" sticker, celebating its 20th year with the Colombian Air Force.
I know, a shameless self-plug! (photo taken by me)

-----------------------------------------------

Medellín two Airports (for Legacy135):

1.
Olaya Herrera Regional SKMD/EOH.
Runways 01 and 19. Operates from 0600 to 1800.
Visual Approach upon entering Aburra Valley (via Caldas, Boquerón de San Cristobal, Bello...)

2. José María Cordova Intl. SKRG/MDE.
Runways 18 and 36. Operates from 0000 to 2359
Has ILS "IMDE" (freq 110.90) for RWY36 and has VOR "RNG" (freq 115.10) some 10 miles south of RWY36.
Also NBDs "MD" (freq 244) "DE" (freq 264) and "LI" (freq274) all three aligned with the runway. "DE" almost on Runway 36, "LI" some 0.5nm from Runway 18s threshold.

The Airport underwent an ILS change some time ago and meanwhile it used an auxiliar VOR called "CDV" along with "RNG". "CDV" was/is located in the beginning of RWY18. I don't know if CDV is still operating now that the ILS is operational again, and I forgot its frequency.

[Edited 2005-08-20 02:58:16]
Quisiera volveraamartevolveraquerertevolveratenertecerrrrcaademígirl! Mis ojos lloran porrr ti...
 
777gk
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RE: Venezuela MD82 Crash. Part 2. Shocking Facts

Sat Aug 20, 2005 1:39 pm

She said that they identified 3 corpses who according to the pax manifest were seated in the back of the MD82. They presented no burns, they died of mutilation and "trimulation" (I dont know the correct translation) One of them had a "metal stick" stuck in the torso

Hate to speculate on such terrible circumstances, and I have not been well-informed on the investigation thus far, but is the possibility of an uncontained failure of either engine still on the table?
 
RCS763AV
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RE: Venezuela MD82 Crash. Part 2. Shocking Facts

Sun Aug 21, 2005 12:39 am

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 10):
I honestly have no idea. Once they aborted landing in Medellin, they were simply told to continue to Bogota, were all the emergency measures were taking place. The plane landed fine at the end.

The general argued that it was b/c of the longer and ampler runway in BOG (MDE: 3000m, BOG: 3800m) if there was an emergency, the aircraft would have had less chance of overruning the landing field.
 
Southamerica
Posts: 2300
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 2:56 am

RE: Venezuela MD82 Crash. Part 2. Shocking Facts

Sun Aug 21, 2005 1:19 am

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 31):
The general argued that it was b/c of the longer and ampler runway in BOG (MDE: 3000m, BOG: 3800m)

MDE is 3500 meters long. Both MDE and BOG have the same runway width: 45 meters.



SOUTHAMERICA
 
2travel2know
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RE: Venezuela MD82 Crash. Part 2. Shocking Facts

Sun Aug 21, 2005 1:46 am

Quoting CM767 (Reply 6):
I am not impressed with Panamanian and Colombian authorities for allowing West to operate in the first place

A large number of West Caribbean Airways passengers are tourist that have holiday programmes @ The Decameron Resorts in ADZ and PTY.
That's probably why West Caribbean was flying the FDM-PTY-FDM charters, almost all those tourist stayed @ the colombian owned Decameron group hotels in PTY.
Nowadays the bulk of the leisure charter traffic to/fr PTY are passengers to the Decameron Resort in Rio Hato.

In related news, AF will operate 2 FDM-PTY-FDM flights this week to return the French tourists stranded in PTY after the West Caribbean crash.
I don't work for COPA Airlines!
 
ACDC8
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RE: Venezuela MD82 Crash. Part 2. Shocking Facts

Sun Aug 21, 2005 1:53 am

Quoting Hmmmm... (Reply 24):
Why is it interesting that a plane that parked at a gate 13 crashed?

Because the number 13 is considered unlucky. A lot of airlines do not have a flight 13 or row 13 and some airports do not have a gate 13.

Quoting Hmmmm... (Reply 24):
Don't you find it equally interesting that all the other planes that park at gates 13 all over the world, do not crash? Your observation can only be interesting if you are implying that planes that park at gates numbered 13 should not crash, and since this one did, that therefore constitutes something that is "interesting."

The only legitimately interesting observation that anyone can make regarding gates numbered 13, is if No plane using that number has ever crashed. THAT would be interesting!

It was a simple observation! While I agree it has no relevance on why the aircraft crashed, I found it somewhat ironic. Please forgive me for having my own opinion!  Yeah sure
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Venezuela MD82 Crash. Part 2. Shocking Facts

Sun Aug 21, 2005 6:42 pm

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 34):
Because the number 13 is considered unlucky. A lot of airlines do not have a flight 13 or row 13 and some airports do not have a gate 13

Since this came up.
At Bom. BDA/DHL have been allotted Bay #13 for all their Transitting Aircraft for the past 9 years.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)

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