JMJAirways
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Alitalia And Their Longhaul Fleet In The Future?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 8:14 pm

Hey!

I was wondering what plans do Alitalia have for the future regarding their longhaul fleet ?

They have 10 new 772's !? What about the MD11 and the 767 ? Any plans to replace them ?

Thanks in advance

Best regards
I am willing to pay extra for a A346 flight !
 
art
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RE: Alitalia And Their Longhaul Fleet In The Future?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 8:23 pm

Quoting JMJAirways (Thread starter):
I was wondering what plans do Alitalia have for the future regarding their longhaul fleet ?

Is there any point in Alitalia making any plans for the future?
 
JMJAirways
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RE: Alitalia And Their Longhaul Fleet In The Future?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 8:40 pm

May I ask why ? Is their economical status so bad ?

Best regards
I am willing to pay extra for a A346 flight !
 
mauriceb
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Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 2:50 am

RE: Alitalia And Their Longhaul Fleet In The Future?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 8:44 pm

Is there any point in Alitalia making any plans for the future?

yup, recently there was a topic about it.


May I ask why ? Is their economical status so bad ?

Best regards


let me say you this, when there wouldn't be something like the italian government, Alitalia would have been banckrupt for about 8 times now..
 
Udo
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RE: Alitalia And Their Longhaul Fleet In The Futur

Fri Aug 19, 2005 8:46 pm

Quoting JMJAirways (Thread starter):
They have 10 new 772's !? What about the MD11 and the 767 ? Any plans to replace them ?

They MD-11 had already been retired but two pax aircraft were taken back into service due to capacity shortage. The B767s will receive new interiors and won't leave anytime soon.

If AZ stays in business they are a hot candiate for a sizeable order of B787s, maybe combined with a few B773ER.


Regards
Udo
Me & You & a Plane Named Blue...
 
JMJAirways
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RE: Alitalia And Their Longhaul Fleet In The Future?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 8:50 pm

How is their economi doing right now ?

Can anyone show any numbers ?

Best regards
I am willing to pay extra for a A346 flight !
 
mauriceb
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RE: Alitalia And Their Longhaul Fleet In The Future?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 8:52 pm

i found the topic with the Alitalia future plans!!! as you can see , Alitalia will add some planes untill 2008...
RE: Alitalia's Fleet Plans - 2008 (Image Included) (by FLYYUL Jul 15 2005 in Civil Aviation)

4 more 777's
3 more 767's
5 total MD-11Fs (previously combis)
12 ERJ-170
-5 MD-80's (giving it a total of 69)

[Edited 2005-08-19 13:52:33]
 
FlySSC
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RE: Alitalia And Their Longhaul Fleet In The Future?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 8:55 pm

Quoting JMJAirways (Reply 2):
May I ask why ? Is their economical status so bad ?

in one word : "Yes"

Quoting JMJAirways (Reply 5):
How is their economi doing right now ?

in one word : "Bad".

As always, I would add. Despite the millions of Liras then Euros generously poured regularly by the Italian Government ...
 
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garpd
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RE: Alitalia And Their Longhaul Fleet In The Future?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 9:02 pm

Quoting JMJAirways (Reply 2):
May I ask why ? Is their economical status so bad ?

Inability to adapt to the post 911 aviation industry I think is the main reason.
Increasing competition from other airlines that are cheaper.
arpdesign.wordpress.com
 
JMJAirways
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RE: Alitalia And Their Longhaul Fleet In The Future?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 9:14 pm

Quoting MauriceB (Reply 6):
i found the topic with the Alitalia future plans!!! as you can see , Alitalia will add some planes untill 2008...

RE: Alitalia's Fleet Plans - 2008 (Image Included) (by FLYYUL Jul 15 2005 in Civil Aviation)

It seems quite okey, besides the 767, I don't get why order a "old" plane !?

Best regards
I am willing to pay extra for a A346 flight !
 
IADBGO
Posts: 202
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2004 8:19 am

RE: Alitalia And Their Longhaul Fleet In The Future?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 9:37 pm

Last week I flew into IAD and noticed an Alitalia MD-11 parked next to T2. Is this a MD-11F ? The above posts seem to indicate that all of the pax MD-11's are out of service. Doesn't Alitalia still fly non-stop from IAD to MXP?

Thnx in advance,

IADBGO
 
vlada
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RE: Alitalia And Their Longhaul Fleet In The Future?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 9:44 pm

Quoting Iadbgo (Reply 10):
Last week I flew into IAD and noticed an Alitalia MD-11 parked next to T2. Is this a MD-11F ?

I have seen both pax and freight AZ's MD11 being in service at MXP in May.
 
Alitalia744
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RE: Alitalia And Their Longhaul Fleet In The Future?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 10:07 pm

AZ has one remaining M11M that has been servicing IAD recently. The aircraft will be withdrawn from use in the near future and join it's four sisterships in cargo conversion.

AZCargo is phasing out the 742 and will concentrate on meeting its requirements with a fleet of 5 M11s.

AZ long-haul are looking to add four 777s and three 763s to help meet future long-haul needs. The 76s they own are from the mid-late 90s (latest delivered in 1999) and are having interior reconfigs to match the appeal of the 777s. This will enable AZ to open up new stations (HKG and LAX) in addition to increasing frequency on certain routes.

As for the 77W, they want it, but currently, none of the routes can sustain 77W service except for maybe JFK-FCO/MXP and NRT-MXP/FCO. These routes have been consistently running at above 90% LF...

It will be interesting to see where AZ nets out financially. The airline is very keen on adding itself to the 787 airline list. AZ has pretty much decided on Boeing for long-haul a/c and a mixture of Airbus and Embraer for their medium/short-haul a/c. A nice fleet balance if you ask me...
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
karan69
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RE: Alitalia And Their Longhaul Fleet In The Future?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 11:46 pm

Quoting Udo (Reply 4):
The B767s will receive new interiors and won't leave anytime soon.

Agreed on that and it will be nice to fly on AZs 767s with a 777 type cabin.
But will they be getting PTVs in economy, and if so when will the upgradation procedure begin

Also, what are the routes they operate the 777s to, i am aware of the following

JFK---MXP/FCO
MIA
NRT

Where else do they operate the 777s to
 
Alitalia744
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RE: Alitalia And Their Longhaul Fleet In The Future?

Sat Aug 20, 2005 12:00 am

Quoting Karan69 (Reply 13):
Agreed on that and it will be nice to fly on AZs 767s with a 777 type cabin.
But will they be getting PTVs in economy, and if so when will the upgradation procedure begin

Also, what are the routes they operate the 777s to, i am aware of the following

JFK---MXP/FCO
MIA
NRT

Where else do they operate the 777s to

777s throughout the year operate:

FCO-JFK (Throughout the year, usually rotating to 763 in winter)
FCO-EWR (Summer Only, 763 in Winter)
FCO-NRT (Yr Round)
FCO-GRU (Yr Round)
FCO-EZE (Yr Round)
MXP-JFK (Yr Round)
MXP-NRT (Yr Round)
MXP-KIX (Throughout the Year, rotating with 763)
MXP-GRU (Yr Round)
MXP-EZE (Yr Round)
MXP-MIA (Winter)
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
JMJAirways
Topic Author
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RE: Alitalia And Their Longhaul Fleet In The Future?

Sat Aug 20, 2005 1:03 am

I think a airline with that good service deserves a better future! Is the airline miss managed by the management or ?


Best regards
I am willing to pay extra for a A346 flight !
 
IDAWA
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RE: Alitalia And Their Longhaul Fleet In The Future?

Sat Aug 20, 2005 2:24 am

Quoting JMJAirways (Reply 15):
Is the airline miss managed by the management or ?

Unions are hampering any heavy restructuration plan, since it would necessarily lead to heavy job losses. This is one of the main reasons for Alitalia's financial state.

I-DAWA.
Flown on: 319, 320, 321, 340, 727, 737, 747, 757, 767, 777, DC9, D10, M11, M80, 146, EM2, BEH, CRJ, DH8, L4T.
 
ContinentalEWR
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RE: Alitalia And Their Longhaul Fleet In The Future?

Sat Aug 20, 2005 10:22 am

AZ is a lousy, bloated, state sponsored mess. The only thing it has going for it is an excellent safety record.
 
baw716
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RE: Alitalia And Their Longhaul Fleet In The Future?

Sat Aug 20, 2005 12:25 pm

To those of you on this thread who are bashing Alitalia:

There are many other airlines that are doing poorly right now, especially in the United States. I worked for Alitalia for four years running their operation in San Francisco. I was very proud to work for them and had it not been for 9/11, we would have grown to be a very successful, and frankly, one of the best franchises for the airline. Our passenger surveys were 80% FAVORABLE regarding the airline in general and our station in particular. Of course, there were issues and we all know what they are.

I am ill now, so I cannot go into detail about these points, but please do not cast stones unless you are willing to back it up with facts. I have facts to back up every single detail I am stating, so if you wish to challenge what I am saying, fine, bring it on. However, you may need to wait a little...until the dr. says my heart can stand the strain.

For now, I would ask all of you to look at Alitalia with an open mind. They ARE trying and the fleet plan they have is solid and their is revenue growth, so I am encouraged that if they can get their arms around their costs, they will get back in the black.

Just remember what is said about casting the first stone...

baw716
David L. Lamb
fmr Area Manager Northern California
Alitalia (SFOUVAZ)
1998-2002
David L. Lamb, fmr Area Mgr Alitalia SFO 1998-2002, fmr Regional Analyst SFO-UAL 1992-1998
 
JMJAirways
Topic Author
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RE: Alitalia And Their Longhaul Fleet In The Future?

Sat Aug 20, 2005 7:49 pm

I totally agree with the previous writer! I think they have a chans. Some US companies have been on "chapter 11" several times, and don't think they saved them selves!

Best regards
I am willing to pay extra for a A346 flight !
 
Joost
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RE: Alitalia And Their Longhaul Fleet In The Future?

Sat Aug 20, 2005 9:35 pm

Quoting GARPD (Reply 8):

Inability to adapt to the post 911 aviation industry I think is the main reason.
Increasing competition from other airlines that are cheaper.

It is not, or at least not only, a 9/11 problem.

In Europe, deregulation only arrived a few years ago (1998 IIRC). Before, all countries had their national airline, flying to other countries under different bilaterals.

As an airline (i.e. air links) are very important to a countries economy as a whole, many governments sponsored airlines. If, as a government, you have to subside 10.000 Euros for a flight per year, but the economic benefits for the country are 20.000 Euros, it is a good thing.

However, this lead to a situation where many airlines became 'lazy' and not watching costs closely. They would be rescued by the government anyways, as they would never let it happen to lose airlinks.

After deregulation, competition increased steadily. Also, EU regulations forbid governments to sponsor their home airlines any longer, as there was competition. Now it started to become a problem for airlines with high costs, as new entrants (like easyJet and Ryanair) where based on a low cost model.

Actually all european airlines have passed hard times.

Air France was doing very bad in the mid 90s, and before privatization, they got a huge amount of money by the government, as a 1-time investment. They had a good management and now the airline is profitable.

KLM have passed heavy restructering in the late 1990s, early 2000s. They were profitable before the takeover/merger with Air France, but it took many jobs.

Lufthansa had a hard time, but managed to survive.

Sabena had 1 profitable year in its whole existance. They were sponsored by the government always. They went broke.

Swissair also could not survive in the industry and went broke. Swiss has had a same merger/takeover with LH as KL-AF, as they could not survive as a small airline.

Austrian posted losses last year.

SAS is having a hard time.

Aer Lingues has had a very intensive restructering program.

Alitalia is much like Sabena, but here the government continues to put money in it. Italian government have asked AF to buy Alitalia, but they didn't want it (yet). As said, Alitalia is very much controlled by unions. Restructering is neccesary, and will cost jobs, many jobs. That causes problems with unions (well, that's their job) and it is also not favorable for the Italian government to have a whole bunch of unemployed people. But the bubble will burst once anyways...
 
wingedarrow
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RE: Alitalia And Their Longhaul Fleet In The Future?

Sat Aug 20, 2005 10:50 pm

As usual, some posts here are perfectly ridiculous...

First of all, for those of you that still think that Alitalia "asks" for money knocking at the government's door, once and for all: Alitalia IS the Italian government, that's part of it. So there's nothing scandalous in their giving financial helps to the company.

Second, while someone of you is still guessing superficially whether Alitalia is a good airline or not (and when doing this, if you want to be trusted please include datas and sources), someone else (luckily) is working hard to keep this airline flying, trying to cope with a daily bad propaganda like the one pathetically showed in this thread. As a result of this, new aircrafts and routes are announced, but this has already been discussed in the recent past.

I don't get to understand why every time somone starts a topic about Alitalia, that must always be full of negative thoughts and statements...
אליטליה
 
Joost
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RE: Alitalia And Their Longhaul Fleet In The Future?

Sat Aug 20, 2005 11:19 pm

Quoting Wingedarrow (Reply 21):
First of all, for those of you that still think that Alitalia "asks" for money knocking at the government's door, once and for all: Alitalia IS the Italian government, that's part of it. So there's nothing scandalous in their giving financial helps to the company.

While it might not be scandalous, it is against the rules the EU have set about subsides from the government to airlines.

As you might have concluded from my post, I am not against subsides from governments into airlines in general. However, in the EU free aviation market (incl. Norway and Switzerland), a deal was made that no government would subside airlines, in order to create fair competition. As a member of the EU, Italy agreed to this. Belgian and Swiss governments let their airlines collapse, not Italy.

I am well aware that it is not an easy situation and I know there is not one single solution for the problem, as a collapsing AZ would be very bad for the countries economy.

Hoewever, I think it would be better to restructure the company in a controlled way, and form it into a good offer for AF, LH or BA - just like KL did. It will mean job losses, but when controlling it, the social and economical impact can be minimized. Decreasing your number of employees by just not replacing retirees or not renewing temporary contracts does not cause social problems or strikes.
 
JMJAirways
Topic Author
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RE: Alitalia And Their Longhaul Fleet In The Future?

Sun Aug 21, 2005 1:30 am

Quoting Wingedarrow (Reply 21):
don't get to understand why every time somone starts a topic about Alitalia, that must always be full of negative thoughts and statements...

I agree! There seems to be a very negative feeling about Alitalia. That is sad because AZ is a great airline otherwise than the "economical" part!
So I don't get why all this negativity ?!?

Try AZ and then form you'r opinion! (maybe you already did)

Best regards
I am willing to pay extra for a A346 flight !
 
wingedarrow
Posts: 157
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RE: Alitalia And Their Longhaul Fleet In The Future?

Sun Aug 21, 2005 2:17 am

Quoting Joost (Reply 22):
it is against the rules the EU have set

This is no news and the whole issue has already been matter of discussion at the EU parliament and in this forum. The EU commission judged not illegal a "bridge loan" to...

Quoting Joost (Reply 22):
restructure the company in a controlled way



Quoting Joost (Reply 22):
It will mean job losses, but when controlling it, the social and economical impact can be minimized. Decreasing your number of employees by just not replacing retirees or not renewing temporary contracts does not cause social problems or strikes.

On what planet are you living Joost??? How would you "control" thousands of jobless people here? And what about their families? The Italian context is so hard and complex that cannot be discussed just dropping two lines here and there, especially if you don't know it. It's amazing to see how many know-it-all with ready solutions we have here around, but unfortunately none of them is ruling our country and our airline...
אליטליה
 
Joost
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RE: Alitalia And Their Longhaul Fleet In The Futur

Sun Aug 21, 2005 2:44 am

Quoting Wingedarrow (Reply 24):
On what planet are you living Joost??? How would you "control" thousands of jobless people here?

Please read my post. I said controlled job losses in not replacing people who retire and not renewing temporary contracts. This is how KLM also managed to get back into profits after very hard times. The number of people who were actually 'fired' was relatively low.

I am not saying I am knowing it all. But you must agree that the current situation at AZ is far from perfect. And I hope we can discuss possiblities about the best way to make the airline survive in a normal way, without making fools of each other ('on what planet are you living' ). Actually reading posts also helps.

[Edited 2005-08-20 19:48:57]
 
wingedarrow
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RE: Alitalia And Their Longhaul Fleet In The Future?

Sun Aug 21, 2005 3:43 am

Quoting Joost (Reply 22):
It will mean job losses, but when controlling it, the social and economical impact can be minimized. Decreasing your number of employees by just not replacing retirees or not renewing temporary contracts does not cause social problems or strikes.

Oh, really??? It causes HUGE problems, my dear, because we desperately need those people! Now they are even looking for workers who are willing to leave even if they don't have the age to retire, paying them hundreds of thousands of Euro. And consider this: 60-70% of workers are temporary at Alitalia and they're really fed up of working for 5,6 years or more with no guarantees for their future, being considered second-choice workers with no benefits. If just they wanted, Alitalia would close in 24 hours, trust me.

Quoting Joost (Reply 25):
Please read my post. I said controlled job losses in not replacing people who retire and not renewing temporary contracts.

That's what they've been doing for years. But that's not the right way to control the situation, it has just worsened the matter and embittered the workers.

Quoting Joost (Reply 25):
Actually reading posts also helps.

Improving your use of the English language to speak your mind also would help a lot!!! I read your posts, actually, and as far as I can see, your second version is a little bit different from the first one. At first, you couldn't care less if thousands of people were to live in the uncertainty for who knows how long just for the sake of our politicians, whilst a post after you sweetened the pill by only suggesting the dutch model to reduce risks.

But you cannot standardize things, my friend. You may know what happens in Holland, but not here. I don't know your country so I cannot what happened to the former KLM workers, what they did after and how long it took for them to find something else.

But I can assure you that if in Italy you loose your job in your 30s or 40s your dead. Nobody wants you, because you're too old and unable to re-adapt to a new employment.

Of course our situation is not good, but we're trying to get out of the tunnel somehow. Many other airlines have far worst conditions than ours and they keep going, too. Alitalia is not lacking money, Alitalia is not lacking passengers, Alitalia would not lacking workers: Alitalia is only lacking a good management. When somebody will be able to solve this problem, Alitalia will be the same successful airline of the past.
אליטליה
 
Joost
Posts: 1841
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 8:27 pm

RE: Alitalia And Their Longhaul Fleet In The Future?

Sun Aug 21, 2005 4:25 am

Quoting Wingedarrow (Reply 26):
Improving your use of the English language to speak your mind also would help a lot!!! I

I am sorry if you misunderstood. Reading your profile I see you are working for AZ . And I have no doubt about the fact that you are better informed than I am.

Quote:
But you cannot standardize things, my friend.

Well, I know. But when no-one would do that, we would not have a forum anymore  Wink

Well, I'm getting curious about AZ now. Highly likely, I'll fly Alitalia next spring to Catania.
 
wingedarrow
Posts: 157
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RE: Alitalia And Their Longhaul Fleet In The Future?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 3:25 am

It would be nice to meet! If you wish, send me a message with all the details so I can check if I'm at work. C U  Smile
אליטליה
 
karan69
Posts: 2699
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2004 7:57 pm

RE: Alitalia And Their Longhaul Fleet In The Future?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 3:34 am

I completely share Wingedarrow and Baw716 s view over AZ being a fine example,
I do not have any personal experience myself, but my father has flown them from 1998-2003 around 5-7 times on BOM-MXP and each time he gave me a positive feedback about the airline, its crew and meals,
however his only complain was the condition and lack of IFE of the aircraft. [Keep in mind that at that time AZ flew the M11 to BOM]
 
Alitalia744
Posts: 3777
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 8:22 am

RE: Alitalia And Their Longhaul Fleet In The Future?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 7:53 am

Wingedarrow -

Nice to see some people standing up for the company! Alitalia is not just an airline to many Italians. It is a symbol of our history and our future. From the original wingedarrow to the "Tricolore A", she has taken our people far and wide.

Agree with everyone that Alitalia is a in a state of "messy-ness" financially, but we can only hope that management will one-day wake up and figure out how to fix the old beauty. I listen to my family telling me stories of how Alitalia used to be in the late sixties/early seventies and wish I could experience the type of service they used to fly...

Forza Alitalia!
Some see lines, others see between the lines.

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