Avianca
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Germany And A Second Long-Haul Airline?

Sat Aug 20, 2005 4:34 am

Why germany has not a real second long-haul airline "ala" Virgin GreatBritain has.

Germany is the biggest european country regarding the population and is a big holiday destination.

At least some routes could be served profitable, (NYC, MIA area, Lax, ORD, YYZ, JNB, BKK, NRT, PVG, PEK, HKG, GRU, MEX) for example.

with decent european conections on smaller aircrafts or with an cooperation with any european low-cost carrier they could optimize the load-factors....

lets discuss.

regards
Avianca
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
123
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RE: Germany And A Second Long-Haul Airline?

Sat Aug 20, 2005 4:41 am

Seems you forgot LTU, which is also a "real" longrange airline because they don´t only fly charters, but also regular longrange flights to Africa, Asia and the Americas.

LTU is a well known airline in Germany and is recognized for its high service levels, modern fleet and attractive destinations.
 
ACDC8
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RE: Germany And A Second Long-Haul Airline?

Sat Aug 20, 2005 4:42 am

How many long-haul charter companies does Germany have compared to the UK?

Germany
LTU
Thomas Cook (Condor)
Hapag Lloyd (still long-hauls?)

UK
Thomas Cook
My Travel
Britannia (?)
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
 
vfw614
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RE: Germany And A Second Long-Haul Airline?

Sat Aug 20, 2005 4:42 am

Well, we have LTU after all and they pretend to be a scheduled long-haul carrier serving destinations in Asia, Africa, North and Latin America.

Served profitably from where - that is the question ?? Germany is, in contrast to other countries that are or have been able to support two or more long-haul carriers (e.g. France: AF und UTA, UK: BA and Virgin), too decentralised.

The reason why Virgin can survive wothout a hub and spoke system is because LON itself is such a big market.
 
Avianca
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RE: Germany And A Second Long-Haul Airline?

Sat Aug 20, 2005 4:44 am

Quoting 123 (Reply 1):
Seems you forgot LTU

no i didn´t, the problem with ltu is that they still serve mainly leisure destinations, the other long haul flights they operate are not daily, just 2 to 3 flights per week (JFK mor frequently of corse) and not year around destinations. I would compare LTU not with Virgin more with a British Leisure Carrier.
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Avianca
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RE: Germany And A Second Long-Haul Airline?

Sat Aug 20, 2005 4:46 am

Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 3):
too decentralised.

maybe 15 years ago, today Germany is the centralisedest country of europe.
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Avianca
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RE: Germany And A Second Long-Haul Airline?

Sat Aug 20, 2005 4:48 am

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 2):
Hapag Lloyd (still long-hauls?)

no more, what destinations they served in the past on long hauls just Domenican Republik? or
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ACDC8
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RE: Germany And A Second Long-Haul Airline?

Sat Aug 20, 2005 4:49 am

Quoting 123 (Reply 1):
LTU is a well known airline in Germany and is recognized for its high service levels, modern fleet and attractive destinations.

 rotfl  Sorry, but did you just use LTU and high service levels in the same sentence?  rotfl 

LH seems to have Germany pretty well covered though, 2 major hubs in FRA and MUC. I could imagine that it would be very difficult for a new carrier to start up. BTW, what ever became of the one airline that wanted to start low fare trans-atlantic service from CGN a few years back?
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
 
legacy135
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RE: Germany And A Second Long-Haul Airline?

Sat Aug 20, 2005 4:52 am

Quoting Avianca (Reply 5):
maybe 15 years ago, today Germany is the centralisedest country of Europe.

This is correct. For us here in Switzerland, the hubs in FRA and MUC are very often the best gateways to the world, since LX has shrinked down it's worldwide network significantly compared with the former SR network.

As LH now bought LX, this may become in a way like a "second" German long range carrier. I know, many Swiss won't like to read this statement. But looking at the triangle FRA-MUC-ZRH, for somebody not really having the choice in Germany to board a nonstop flight, it may become a good option going trough ZRH. I am sure, schedules between LH and LX will be adapted as well to serve eachother and the network of both airlines will eventually become one system, that serves both countries the best possible way.
 
egnr
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RE: Germany And A Second Long-Haul Airline?

Sat Aug 20, 2005 4:54 am

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 2):
How many long-haul charter companies does Germany have compared to the UK?

Flying longhaul charters from the UK we have: Thomsonfly, Monarch Airlines, MyTravel Airways, Thomas Cook, Excel Airways, First Choice Airways.

Not sure if Air Atlanta Europe/Travel City Direct count... Doesn't Air Atlanta Europe have a UK AOC?

In Germany, I believe Hapagfly is going to be short-haul only with a pure 737 fleet. I've heard that TUI will use LTU for its longhaul flying from Germany instead.
7late7, A3latey, Sukhoi Superlate... what's going on?
 
Avianca
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RE: Germany And A Second Long-Haul Airline?

Sat Aug 20, 2005 4:55 am

Quoting EGNR (Reply 9):
believe Hapagfly is going to be short-haul only with a pure 737 fleet

they have still some A310
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ACDC8
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RE: Germany And A Second Long-Haul Airline?

Sat Aug 20, 2005 4:56 am

Quoting Avianca (Reply 6):
no more, what destinations they served in the past on long hauls just Domenican Republik? or

The only destinations I know of for sure were various destinations in the Caribbean and YYZ (at least in 1990). I wasn't sure if they still did trans-atlantic runs anymore though, can't recall seeing any out of DUS recently.
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
 
rlwynn
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RE: Germany And A Second Long-Haul Airline?

Sat Aug 20, 2005 4:56 am

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 7):
Sorry, but did you just use LTU and high service levels in the same sentence?

I did. I have flow LTU 5 times to LAX in the past 3 years. Every flight was better than my ones on LH, AA, DL, US or KLM.
I can drive faster than you
 
Avianca
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RE: Germany And A Second Long-Haul Airline?

Sat Aug 20, 2005 4:57 am

Quoting Legacy135 (Reply 8):
As LH now bought LX, this may become in a way like a "second" German long range carrier.

the problem is that it´s the same holding, it would be great to have a second independet carrier, Avianca should open a subsidary in Germany

"Avianca Deutschland"  Big grin
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PanHAM
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RE: Germany And A Second Long-Haul Airline?

Sat Aug 20, 2005 4:57 am

A few things - to answer the question:

We do not have a single large city like LON or PAR, our markets are fragmented which makes it more difficult to sustain a second long bhaul carrier,

LON is the largest O/D market in the world. Easy for a secoind force, especially when the product is that much better than BA's

LTU is doing a good job in competing with LH but thgey can alway take only a small slice oif the market they are serving. After all, they serve JFK daily now, China almost daily and a lot of the leisure destinatons cater for business travellers as well.

And finally, the UK would not have Virgin without Richard Branson. This type of entrepreneur (who is working with other people's money primarily) is, unfortunatley, not possible in the German economoy, where the ill conceived "Mitbestimmung" is still mandatory in PLC companies. If that ever changes and someone like Sir Richard comes up here, things might change as well. .
powered by Eierlikör
 
Joost
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RE: Germany And A Second Long-Haul Airline?

Sat Aug 20, 2005 4:57 am

Quoting Avianca (Reply 5):
maybe 15 years ago, today Germany is the centralisedest country of europe.

I think you are refering to the political situation. I think Vfw614 is refering to the distribution of the people in the country, meaning that Germany has many medium- and large-sized towns all over the country; together they create a big population, but none of them is as big as London.

Slightly off-topic: is there a kind of measurement or index how to express how centralized (demographically) a country is?
 
egnr
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RE: Germany And A Second Long-Haul Airline?

Sat Aug 20, 2005 5:01 am

Quoting Avianca (Reply 10):
Quoting EGNR (Reply 9):
believe Hapagfly is going to be short-haul only with a pure 737 fleet

they have still some A310

They still have some A310s at the moment, and an A306 leased in from Lufthansa judging by pics in the database. They recently signed a deal with Boeing for more 737-800s and said that they would replace the A310s (4 left in the fleet?) with them.

Hapagfly could be a potential 737-900ER customer along with other European charter carriers.
7late7, A3latey, Sukhoi Superlate... what's going on?
 
ACDC8
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RE: Germany And A Second Long-Haul Airline?

Sat Aug 20, 2005 5:03 am

Quoting Rlwynn (Reply 12):
I did. I have flow LTU 5 times to LAX in the past 3 years. Every flight was better than my ones on LH, AA, DL, US or KLM.

You were luckier then me. I flew them 3 times between DUS-YVR/YYC last year and each time was worse then the first.

Maybe the close proximity of neighboring countries like France (AF), Holland (KL) have influence to a certain extent?
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
 
vfw614
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RE: Germany And A Second Long-Haul Airline?

Sat Aug 20, 2005 5:05 am

I cannot think of any airline that just does long-haul like Virgin does and therefore exclusively relies on O&D.

Literally all other true and sizeable long-haul airlines are hub & spoke airlines, feeding their long-hauls with own aircraft or through subsidiaries.

I can only think of UTA and, to some extent, TWA and PanAm that had a philosophy similar to Virgin.

It certainly would not work in Germany - where would you want to base such an airline that could not feed its flights ?
 
Avianca
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RE: Germany And A Second Long-Haul Airline?

Sat Aug 20, 2005 5:09 am

Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 18):
It certainly would not work in Germany - where would you want to base such an airline that could not feed its flights ?

well I also do not think they could fill up the flights with totally O&D market, due this they could as before mentioned cooperate with an european loco carrier.

CGN would not bad, on the other hand MUC would be also very good (near to austria, italy, switzerland, czech republik....) and MUC has still more space aviable
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legacy135
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RE: Germany And A Second Long-Haul Airline?

Sat Aug 20, 2005 5:16 am

Quoting Avianca (Reply 13):
the problem is that it´s the same holding,

This is true, it is not really a competition and competition is what is needed here.
I know from my days with Balair how the situation was. Our management was told all the time from SR in ZRH what they need to do and how. They probably also killed BB finally with this. One small example: 1986 when the DC-8-63 needed replacement, BB did a study and came to the conclusion that the 757 would suit best. The NO from ZRH was for sure, as the A310 was in their favor. Later on, when Balair came in the hands of Hotelplan and became eventually Belair, they got a fleet that suited their needs..... two B757's and one B763  Wink

This competition of intelligence and influence will probably also be found rather fast in the new ownership and management situation in the LH - LX group.

On the other hand it was always our own proudness to show that we are in certain aspects better or at least different than Swissair. Nothing better to hear a passenger commenting that the BB flight was better than the SR flight. Sure, we also were cheaper...
I guess this kind of competition we will also find in the LH - LX group.

Quoting Avianca (Reply 13):
it would be great to have a second independent carrier, Avianca should open a subsidiary in Germany

So "Aerovias NaCionales de Alemania" would need the help of German Efromovich who will base a number of F100's, doing the feeder to the 767's linking via BOG to the Americas. Big grin
 
Chiguire
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RE: Germany And A Second Long-Haul Airline?

Sat Aug 20, 2005 5:17 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 14):
We do not have a single large city like LON or PAR, our markets are fragmented which makes it more difficult to sustain a second long bhaul carrier,

I think this is the main point.
Whoever wants to start a long haul airline from Germany needs at least domestic feeders. And LH will NEVER help a new competitor with a SPA. The maybe only airport that would generate enough traffic would be FRA with its Railway connections and the high number of foreign carriers that might be willing to offer some agreements. But FRA has just one HUGE problem: SLOTS.
And if you want to start a Longhaul out of MUC, DUS or TXL/SXF, you are lost.

But, AVIANCA, if you want to we can sit together on the weekend and found an airline. It could fly FRA-CCS-BOG and carry a lot of Cargo ! dopey 

And we both could always fly "home" for free !  bigthumbsup 
 
Avianca
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RE: Germany And A Second Long-Haul Airline?

Sat Aug 20, 2005 5:22 am

Quoting Chiguire (Reply 21):
But, AVIANCA, if you want to we can sit together on the weekend and found an airline. It could fly FRA-CCS-BOG and carry a lot of Cargo !

And we both could always fly "home" for free !

sounds very good!  Big grin , now we have to found a person with the money to start the project.
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Chiguire
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RE: Germany And A Second Long-Haul Airline?

Sat Aug 20, 2005 5:25 am

Quoting Avianca (Reply 22):
now we have to found a person with the money to start the project.

WHAT ? You don't have it ?
We just need to compete against LH ! Come on ! Ask your Mom !
 
Avianca
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RE: Germany And A Second Long-Haul Airline?

Sat Aug 20, 2005 5:29 am

Quoting Chiguire (Reply 23):
We just need to compete against LH ! Come on ! Ask your Mom !

well she has the money, but the problem she works for LH and will not lose her job...  Silly hope you understand, so we have to use your finacial backround...
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Avianca
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RE: Germany And A Second Long-Haul Airline?

Sat Aug 20, 2005 5:30 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 14):
We do not have a single large city like LON or PAR, our markets are fragmented which makes it more difficult to sustain a second long bhaul carrier,

do not forget the "Ruhr-Gebiet" not a single city, but very very big, would say bigger than LON or PAR
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HT
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RE: Germany And A Second Long-Haul Airline?

Sat Aug 20, 2005 5:42 am

HF´s last longhaul destinations were PUJ and POP - both withdrawn several years ago. The operation was not making enough money - and especially in winter the A310´s lacked the range to fly nonstop (on my way to PUJ we had to make a fuelstop in SNN; the week before it was fuel-stopping in Nantes).

Apart from the Carribean and North America also MBA was served by HF.

Today all 310´s make runs on the trunk routes to the mediterranean and the Canary Islands. All of them are scheduled to leave the fleet soon.
The leased A300 basically is being used as a backup-aircraft during this busy summer season.

If HF´s parent company TUI would see a potential to operate longhaul-charter from Germany in addition to LT and DE, they undoubtedly would do so (they do this succesfully at least in France and in the U.K.)
But OTOH Germany is also pretty much covered by MP via AMS.
PLUS you have a lot (!) of scheduled carriers (national & international) flying from various airports within Germany.
If one takes a look into a TUI-catalogue, most destinations are offered via scheduled carriers (maybe apart from the very touristy spots in the carribean) - but travellers needs & expectations have changed: Not everybody wants to spent a fixed 13 or 14 nights at the destination with only one flight per week to choose from ! Even TUI nowadays offers to combine different weekdays on longhaul package tours (= 10/11/12 days etc.).

That very strict 13/14-day-schedule probably was one of the main reasons why Britannia Germany was so unsuccessful some years ago !
-HT
Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
 
Avianca
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RE: Germany And A Second Long-Haul Airline?

Sat Aug 20, 2005 5:49 am

Quoting HT (Reply 26):
That very strict 13/14-day-schedule probably was one of the main reasons why Britannia Germany was so unsuccessful some years ago !

had the flights such bad load-factors? I always thought the flights were mostly full.
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HT
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RE: Germany And A Second Long-Haul Airline?

Sat Aug 20, 2005 6:19 am

Quoting Avianca (Reply 27):
had the flights such bad load-factors? I always thought the flights were mostly full.

"Full": Yes, but very bad yield even though a lot pf pax were crammed into that B763´s. The main user of those Britannia Germany-flights tour operator FTI (then owned by a U.K. tour operator) was trying to make an impact on the german market by offering package tours at low prices - but very often the product itself was of low quality too. And so these two ventures (airline & tour operator) were discontinued due to mounting losses.
-HT
Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
 
Joost
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RE: Germany And A Second Long-Haul Airline?

Sat Aug 20, 2005 6:21 am

Quoting Avianca (Reply 25):
do not forget the "Ruhr-Gebiet" not a single city, but very very big, would say bigger than LON or PAR

Oh yes, that is right. It is a large population, but still there are many differences with London and Paris.

There are many people living in DUS and they have on average a high disposable income. That means that they like to travel, and that is why DUS offers such a great range of holiday destinations. Also the LTU flights to long-distance destinations fit right here.

For high-yielding business long-haul flights, there is a need for many business travelers. And here, it seems that Germany is more fragmented than let's say France.

Just look at the Forbes 2000 listed German companies, indicated the forbes# and the most convenient airport

DaimlerChrysler (21): Stuttgart (STR)
Deutsche Bank (34): Frankfurt (FRA)
Siemens (35): Munich (MUC)
Deutsche Post (69): Bonn (CGN)
Volkswagen (71): Wolfsburg (HAJ)
Munich re (73): Munich (MUC)
BMW (74): Munich (MUC)
RWE (91): Essen (DUS)
BASF (111): Ludwigshafen (FRA)
Bayer (123): Wuppertal (DUS)

Next to that, the financial center is in Franfurt (FRA), Opel is also close to FRA. And the government is in Berlin, and the biggest port in HAM.

I would call this fragmented.

Now France

Total (17): Paris
BNP Paribas (18): Paris
AXA (53): Paris
Société Générale (54): Paris
Credit Agricole (68): Paris
Carrefour (88): Paris
Renault (100): Paris

And then, also the Stock Exchange and corresponding financial center, and the government are in Paris.

That makes that for O&D-based long-haul flights, the Ruhr gebiet generates demand and that justifies the LTU flights. However, none of the cities alone creates the critical mass comparable to Paris or London, so they had to pick 2 to serve as a hub - choosing the two with the highest potential of course.
 
Avianca
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RE: Germany And A Second Long-Haul Airline?

Sat Aug 20, 2005 6:22 am

Quoting HT (Reply 28):
The main user of those Britannia Germany-flights tour operator FTI (then owned by a U.K. tour operator) was trying to make an impact on the german market by offering package tours at low prices - but very often the product itself was of low quality too. And so these two ventures (airline & tour operator) were discontinued due to mounting losses.

I can remember they sold also tours via Aral Gasoline stations...lowest packages aviable under 1000german-marks ( 500euros for the flight inclusive a 2 week all-inclusive package on a 3star hotel...
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