duke
Posts: 1167
Joined: Tue Sep 21, 1999 9:52 pm

Is The Delta MD-11 Back In Service?

Sat Aug 20, 2005 5:07 am

I saw on another post that 802, the damaged and long-static MD-11  Smile of Delta is in service again. Is this true or is it just a rumor? If in service, who is it with?
 
B4REAL
Posts: 2557
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RE: Is The Delta MD-11 Back In Service?

Sat Aug 20, 2005 9:03 am

The MD-11s have either been sold to FedEx, World Air Ways, returned to lessors, or sent to storage.

You may have seen activity to execute any of the above strategies.

[Edited 2005-08-20 02:04:19]
B4REAL, spelled like it sounds
 
wjcandee
Posts: 5124
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RE: Is The Delta MD-11 Back In Service?

Sat Aug 20, 2005 9:18 am

I haven't seen anything official, but I have seen several posts here and on the finance board to the effect that there are rumours that it will be leased to WOA now that it is repaired and has been flown off from ATL. Meanwhile, WOA just announced that it will be converting one of its pax MD11s to freight. A substitute for that bird, maybe?
 
B4REAL
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RE: Is The Delta MD-11 Back In Service?

Sat Aug 20, 2005 10:13 am

Possibly as you describe. One other note, some spots and shots exist of one of the MD-11 operated by a new carrier, but carrying (stripped) DL colors and registration.


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To be clear, the MD-11's are not operating as DL passenger flights.

I think there are many of us (me included) who would fantasize in DL returning these birds to service for Delta.
B4REAL, spelled like it sounds
 
md90fan
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RE: Is The Delta MD-11 Back In Service?

Sat Aug 20, 2005 12:11 pm

How many of these threads are going to happen!!!!! Sad .....a few years back Delta replaced their MD-11's with 777's wave .............as mentioned they have been sold to WO,FX or are in storage at YMX and GYR.



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-Devan
http://www.devanwells.blogspot.com/
 
Flyer732
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RE: Is The Delta MD-11 Back In Service?

Sat Aug 20, 2005 12:54 pm

Quoting B4real (Reply 3):
Possibly as you describe. One other note, some spots and shots exist of one of the MD-11 operated by a new carrier, but carrying (stripped) DL colors and registration.

New carrier? World has been around for 50+ years. The aircraft you reference is N801DE flying for World Airways on a temporary lease from Delta/Leasing Company. No words on when she'll be returned.

World has charter flights to destinations around the world, today alone there are flights to 15 different countries, including two in Africa, two in the middle east, five in Europe, four in Asia and two in North America. All on 17 aircraft.
 
md90fan
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RE: Is The Delta MD-11 Back In Service?

Sat Aug 20, 2005 10:13 pm

Quoting Flyer732 (Reply 5):
World has charter flights to destinations around the world, today alone there are flights to 15 different countries, including two in Africa, two in the middle east, five in Europe, four in Asia and two in North America. All on 17 aircraft.

What two African destinations are you talking about??...because WO doesnt fly to SSH anymore only the Sonair LAD flight from IAH ,unless there is another destination.


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FRA2DTW
Posts: 236
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RE: Is The Delta MD-11 Back In Service?

Sat Aug 20, 2005 11:39 pm

I think he/she may be talking about the weekly flight JFK-Accra, Ghana operated by North American Airlines, which is a sister company of World, flown on their 767.
 
duke
Posts: 1167
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RE: Is The Delta MD-11 Back In Service?

Sat Aug 20, 2005 11:50 pm

Devan, the thing that really intersts me is whether N802DE has been repaired or if it will be scrapped. Of course Delta has stopped flying the MD-11  Smile
but what has happened to the MD-11s?  Smile They (re being) returned to
service with other operators. I would like to know whether it's true that 802 has been repaired.
 
Orion737
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RE: Is The Delta MD-11 Back In Service?

Sun Aug 21, 2005 12:01 am

Why were the MD11s only in DL service for such a short space of time? After all their previoud three holer, the L1011 was with them for many years. Why did they want shut of the modern MD11 so quickly?
 
OttoPylit
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RE: Is The Delta MD-11 Back In Service?

Sun Aug 21, 2005 12:13 am

Quoting Orion737 (Reply 9):
Why were the MD11s only in DL service for such a short space of time? After all their previoud three holer, the L1011 was with them for many years. Why did they want shut of the modern MD11 so quickly?

Mainly because the MD-11 did not produce the results that MDD promised that it would. It did not carry as much cargo or have the fuel effieciency that was touted by MDD during the production stage. Delta, in the attempt to be a launch customer and put it into service first(which they did), in the long run lost out with the airplane. The MD-11 makes for a great freighter, but is not a wise choice for passenger operations. Plus, towards the end of the decade and into 2000, it was realized that the way of the future is twin engine ETOPS, and one extra engine is just not needed and would become problematic. Why have an engine that requires maintenance and burns fuel if you do not need it? By that time Delta had already recieved its 777's and it was decided the MD-11 should be put to pasture in order to save money. I can agree with it, but man, that was one nice cockpit!


Otto
I don't have a microwave, but I do have a clock that occasionally cooks shit.
 
persotvik
Posts: 265
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 1999 12:38 am

RE: Is The Delta MD-11 Back In Service?

Sun Aug 21, 2005 12:22 am

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 10):
Mainly because the MD-11 did not produce the results that MDD promised that it would. It did not carry as much cargo or have the fuel effieciency that was touted by MDD during the production stage. Delta, in the attempt to be a launch customer and put it into service first(which they did), in the long run lost out with the airplane. The MD-11 makes for a great freighter, but is not a wise choice for passenger operations. Plus, towards the end of the decade and into 2000, it was realized that the way of the future is twin engine ETOPS, and one extra engine is just not needed and would become problematic. Why have an engine that requires maintenance and burns fuel if you do not need it? By that time Delta had already recieved its 777's and it was decided the MD-11 should be put to pasture in order to save money. I can agree with it, but man, that was one nice cockpit!

You must remember that the fuelburn and rangeproblem was solved by MDD when they realised the problem. But the damage were done and then come twin engine ETOPS which airlines opted more and more. As Boeing took over MDD they did see the MD11 as a competitor to the B777 and the line was closed down Sad

Today the goal is twin engines at ultralong range flights. Make sense.
Just love flying
 
Orion737
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RE: Is The Delta MD-11 Back In Service?

Sun Aug 21, 2005 12:29 am

Delta should have kept faith with the MD11 for a bit longer. As has been said, MDD did make improvements and the MD11 overcame some of its initial problems and has proved to be a reliable and capable aircraft and a money maker on long haul, ask Finnair and KLM.

I am suprised at Delta. After the teething troubles of the L1011, you would have thought they would have persevered with the MD11 and shown faith in the product they chose.
 
persotvik
Posts: 265
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 1999 12:38 am

RE: Is The Delta MD-11 Back In Service?

Sun Aug 21, 2005 12:57 am

They are paying for this today.....
The madness in fleet renewal some years ago result in nearly bankrupty for american majors today! Among other reasons of course.
Just love flying
 
YANQUI67
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RE: Is The Delta MD-11 Back In Service?

Sun Aug 21, 2005 1:06 am

While we had them at Delta they were very problematic. They required way more maintenance than any other aircraft type we had. We almost had a party to celebrate the permanent departure of them. I love the way they look, but I didnt like wrenching on them they sucked big time. I am sure some other mechanics could chime in.
 
Orion737
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RE: Is The Delta MD-11 Back In Service?

Sun Aug 21, 2005 1:10 am

What more maintenance for the MD11 than for the L1011? I understood that when the L1011 came into service it suffered major techinical teething problems.

Eventually the MD11 would have settled down and proved reliable for Delta, as they have for other airlines. They never were given much of a chance and mothballed at the earliest opportunity
 
FlagshipAZ
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RE: Is The Delta MD-11 Back In Service?

Sun Aug 21, 2005 1:13 am

The aircraft in question, N802DE, has been repaired. The registration is still valid, and I have heard rumors the ship is going to World Airways on lease. While the damage from the maintenance related fire at ATL was severe, the aircraft is deemed too valuable to be written off. Since there are only 195 MD-11s in existence, they're a precious commodilty as freighters. This ship. line #481 is only a mere 14 yrs old...still plenty of life left in her. Regards.
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." --Ben Franklin
 
wjcandee
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RE: Is The Delta MD-11 Back In Service?

Sun Aug 21, 2005 1:26 am

Quoting Duke (Reply 8):
the thing that really intersts me is whether N802DE has been repaired or if it will be scrapped

Duke, read my reply number 2. It has been repaired. It flies. It isn't being scrapped. The only question is where it's going long-term.

--Bill
 
wjcandee
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RE: Is The Delta MD-11 Back In Service?

Sun Aug 21, 2005 1:28 am

Quoting Yanqui67 (Reply 14):
While we had them at Delta they were very problematic. They required way more maintenance than any other aircraft type we had. We almost had a party to celebrate the permanent departure of them. I love the way they look, but I didnt like wrenching on them they sucked big time.


Sounds like you're talking about the L1011.

[Edited 2005-08-20 18:29:08]
 
FI642
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RE: Is The Delta MD-11 Back In Service?

Sun Aug 21, 2005 3:18 am

World is in fact looking at 802.

HOWEVER: The question is what happens if Delta goes Chapter 11, and the
MD-11 leases are voided? Will World be able to do a deal to keep the birds?

Having N279WA's freight door cut is a done deal .. so they would be short -4- passenger birds . . .
737MAX, Cool Planes for the Worlds Coolest Airline.
 
wjcandee
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RE: Is The Delta MD-11 Back In Service?

Sun Aug 21, 2005 3:29 am

"The question is what happens if Delta goes Chapter 11, and the
MD-11 leases are voided? Will World be able to do a deal to keep the birds?"

You probably know this, but leases *to* Delta from another company aren't automatically voided in bankruptcy. There are some special provisions relating to aircraft leases, but it's basically up to the lessee (the party to whom the thing is leased) to reject the lease within a certain period of time, or not. If DL wants to continue to lease the aircraft *from* the lessors because it's making a profit leasing them *to* WOA, then I doubt they'd reject the lease. If, OTOH, they seize this opportunity to finally rid themselves of these leases, which makes some sense, one would hope that some genius somewhere included a provision in the sublease to WOA that was approved by the lessor and handles this situation. Or maybe not...
 
FI642
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RE: Is The Delta MD-11 Back In Service?

Sun Aug 21, 2005 3:41 am

Correct, I should have been more clear. My statement should have read something like "what happens in DL rejects the leases". It could end up
being a good thing for World, no one knows.

I do in fact hope WOA does get to keep the birds. They really REALLY need the lift!

Personally, I am more worried about the folks at DL, and truly do wish them the best.
737MAX, Cool Planes for the Worlds Coolest Airline.
 
Clipper002
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RE: Is The Delta MD-11 Back In Service?

Sun Aug 21, 2005 4:00 am

Why in the world would World ( pun intended) select an aircraft with an OEW over 5,000 Lbs overweight to convert to a freighter? 279 was repainted last spring and was weighed not once, but twice and each time showed a 5,000 lb INCREASE in the OEW. The only remedy was to reduce the max ACL by a like 5,000 lbs. That's a severe penalty on a freighter.

Rgds,
Ed
Ed
 
OttoPylit
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RE: Is The Delta MD-11 Back In Service?

Sun Aug 21, 2005 7:30 am

Quoting Orion737 (Reply 12):
. As has been said, MDD did make improvements and the MD11 overcame some of its initial problems and has proved to be a reliable and capable aircraft and a money maker on long haul, ask Finnair and KLM.

I am suprised at Delta. After the teething troubles of the L1011, you would have thought they would have persevered with the MD11 and shown faith in the product they chose.

True, but you have to look at the time period. At the time that Delta had just put the MD-11 into service for a couple of years and was seeing their problems. At the same time, Delta was going through financial troubles, after purchasing what was left of Pan Am and looking for future investments. At the same time, Boeing about to test their new airliner, the 777, and it would have the same capabilities as the MD-11, but at a lower operating cost. Just as well, Delta had been having problems with the MD-90 and cancelled their remaining orders, which didn't help McDonnell Douglas' current reputation(early 90's) with Delta. These are just a few reasons as to why Delta could have already been looking for eventual replacements already. Plus, by the time 2000 rolled around, Delta was already predicting a downturn in revenue and the 9/11 attacks didnt help out any.

Now, the L-1011 was a different story. Yes, they had problems, but they were needed for an expanding airline about to spread its wings to international routes. Granted, Delta did at the time have the 747, the DC-10, and the L1011, two of which were having serious problems. Eventually, Delta chose the L-1011 for the technological advancements that it offered(at the time).

Yet another theory for Delta possibly retiring the MD-11 so quickly was the costs of operating them via labor. At one point, you had the 777, MD-11, and 763ER running international routes. The cost of paying the different pilots for 3 different airplanes operating those international routes is pretty big, not to mention you still had the L-1011 operating domestic routes as well. Big airplanes require big salaries and at different payscales. Trim those aircraft types down to a few different types, and everything would be much more streamlined and efficiently.

These are just some of the possibilities that could have brought Delta around to retiring them at such a young(just over a decade) age.



Otto
I don't have a microwave, but I do have a clock that occasionally cooks shit.
 
FI642
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RE: Is The Delta MD-11 Back In Service?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 4:09 am

Quoting Clipper002 (Reply 22):
Why in the world would World ( pun intended) select an aircraft with an OEW over 5,000 Lbs overweight to convert to a freighter? 279 was repainted last spring and was weighed not once, but twice and each time showed a 5,000 lb INCREASE in the OEW. The only remedy was to reduce the max ACL by a like 5,000 lbs. That's a severe penalty on a freighter.

Rgds,
Ed

Good question Ed . . . we asked the same exact question. The reason is supposedly that Boeing will pay for the conversion. 279 is in fact a strange bird. I think the ACL is now about 114.5K. Fortunately normally it usually doesn't get quite that heavy. I think the weight issue would be addressed by Boeing at conversion. Who knows.

FI642
737MAX, Cool Planes for the Worlds Coolest Airline.
 
md90fan
Posts: 2798
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 11:15 am

RE: Is The Delta MD-11 Back In Service?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 8:00 am

Quoting Duke (Reply 8):
Devan, the thing that really intersts me is whether N802DE has been repaired or if it will be scrapped. Of course Delta has stopped flying the MD-11
but what has happened to the MD-11s? They (re being) returned to
service with other operators. I would like to know whether it's true that 802 has been repaired.

If you are talking about the ship that had and engine fire I am not sure about the status but I think that she is in ATL. There is one MD-11 in LAX undergoing heavy maintence and getting ready for service with Fed-Ex......as mentioned before all of the Delta MD-11's are stored at YMX(Montreal) and GYR(Goodyear,Arizona).............or are in service with other airlines like FX,WO and Gemini Air Cargo

With Delta
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With World
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With Delta
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I hoped that hoped
-DEVAN
http://www.devanwells.blogspot.com/
 
md90fan
Posts: 2798
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RE: Is The Delta MD-11 Back In Service?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 8:24 am

Quoting Duke (Reply 8):
Devan, the thing that really intersts me is whether N802DE has been repaired or if it will be scrapped. Of course Delta has stopped flying the MD-11
but what has happened to the MD-11s? They (re being) returned to
service with other operators. I would like to know whether it's true that 802 has been repaired.

If you are talking about the ship that had and engine fire I am not sure about the status but I think that she is in ATL. There is one MD-11 in LAX undergoing heavy maintence and getting ready for service with Fed-Ex......as mentioned before all of the Delta MD-11's are stored at YMX(Montreal) and GYR(Goodyear,Arizona).............or are in service with other airlines like FX,WO and Gemini Air Cargo

With Delta
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Photo © OST Aviation Photography

With World
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Photo © Danny Fritsche - Airplanespotters


With Delta
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Photo © Frank C. Duarte Jr.

With Gemini
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Photo © Sam Chui


With Delta,now with FX
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Photo © Michael Carter





I hoped that hoped
-DEVAN
http://www.devanwells.blogspot.com/
 
Flyer732
Posts: 1320
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 1999 6:09 am

RE: Is The Delta MD-11 Back In Service?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 10:29 am

Quoting MD90fan (Reply 6):
What two African destinations are you talking about??...because WO doesnt fly to SSH anymore only the Sonair LAD flight from IAH ,unless there is another destination

There is another destination, operates for the military. Not the JFK-ACC that North American is running.

802 is no longer in ATL, it ferried (after repairs) to YMX awhile back. I've heard that tail number mentioned around the office a few times though.

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