ua777222
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Very Low Departure Out Of OGG? (Pics)

Sat Aug 20, 2005 7:53 pm


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Photo © Cameron Bowerman - Airplanespotters



I was looking in the DB and saw this picture. Is it common for airlines to make such a low departure over the city? Does the public have an issue with this? If you take a look at the picture you'll find that the houses are extemely close to the aircraft. If I lived there I don't know if I'd be too happy....

Nice picture BTW.

Take care,

Matt
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SA7700
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RE: Very Low Departure Out Of OGG? (Pics)

Sat Aug 20, 2005 8:17 pm

Well I do not live in OGG, but live under the flightpath for landings and take-offs in BFN. The aircraft noise doesn't bother me at all; not being a NIMBY.

Rgds

SA7700
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leelaw
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RE: Very Low Departure Out Of OGG? (Pics)

Sat Aug 20, 2005 8:38 pm

I'm kinda surprised that a 757 is this low, but that beach is less than 1000ft from the end of Runway 2/20 at Maui, which is only 7000ft long.
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lorm
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RE: Very Low Departure Out Of OGG? (Pics)

Sat Aug 20, 2005 8:40 pm

Considering where the north threshold of RWY 2/20 (the longest runway at OGG 6995x150) is, that is nothing out of the ordinary. Look for those houses at the right hand side of this great overview shot.


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-LorM
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T prop
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RE: Very Low Departure Out Of OGG? (Pics)

Sat Aug 20, 2005 9:23 pm

Nothing unusual for OGG. If I remember right, the FAA banned kite surfers in that area due to thier equipment possibly becoming a hazard.

T prop.
 
sspontak
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RE: Very Low Departure Out Of OGG? (Pics)

Sat Aug 20, 2005 10:17 pm

I stayed at a condo over on Kauai. One of the landing approaches into Lihue Airport went right over this condo. These planes came in incredibly low. I enjoyed it, but I bet some of the other vacationers were not happy to come to this paradise with those loud Aloha 732's as their entertainment.
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Newark777
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RE: Very Low Departure Out Of OGG? (Pics)

Sun Aug 21, 2005 2:08 pm

And remember, this is a 753, which doesn't have the same incredible takeoff performance as its shorter sister, the 752.

Harry
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CORULEZ05
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RE: Very Low Departure Out Of OGG? (Pics)

Sun Aug 21, 2005 2:12 pm

Why does that low-departure surprise you when there are places like SXM that see this on a regular basis?
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ua777222
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RE: Very Low Departure Out Of OGG? (Pics)

Sun Aug 21, 2005 2:38 pm

Quoting CORULEZ05 (Reply 7):
Why does that low-departure surprise you when there are places like SXM that see this on a regular basis?

Why do you have to kill every topic in which you post?

I guess we'll never know right?

Thanks,

Matt
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Newark777
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RE: Very Low Departure Out Of OGG? (Pics)

Sun Aug 21, 2005 2:45 pm

Why does that low-departure surprise you when there are places like SXM that see this on a regular basis?

If anything, SXM has higher than usual departures in order to avoid the large mountain in front of the runway. The landings are not actually low; it just so happens there is a beach right at the end of the runway. Because people are allowed to get closer to the runway than usual, the airplanes appear to be lower than usual.

Harry
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CORULEZ05
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RE: Very Low Departure Out Of OGG? (Pics)

Sun Aug 21, 2005 2:58 pm

Quoting UA777222 (Reply 8):
Why do you have to kill every topic in which you post?

I guess we'll never know right?

Um, I'm sorry for questioning your thread. Just don't see why this "very low departure" surprised you. Discussion can continue, I simply stated what I thought about the thread...just like everyone else will.

Quoting Newark777 (Reply 9):
SXM has higher than usual departures in order to avoid the large mountain in front of the runway

Actually, they also have departures towards the beach...not just over the mountains.

Quoting Newark777 (Reply 9):
The landings are not actually low; it just so happens there is a beach right at the end of the runway. Because people are allowed to get closer to the runway than usual, the airplanes appear to be lower than usual.

Really? Well geeze, I could of sworn those planes must be pretty damn low since they are ABOUT TO LAND when they go right over the beach. So what are you saying....they are about 1000 ft or what?  sarcastic 
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dacman
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RE: Very Low Departure Out Of OGG? (Pics)

Sun Aug 21, 2005 3:46 pm

I remember departing OGG on a United DC-10-10 in 1989 and thought the mechanics would be pulling palm leaves from the belly when we got to LAX, so this photo does not surprise me.

Mike
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ASAFA
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RE: Very Low Departure Out Of OGG? (Pics)

Sun Aug 21, 2005 4:11 pm

Could this possibly be a noise abatement departure? I know many airports (SNA comes to mind) require this. Shortly after takeoff the a/c will level off and throttle back, coasting clear of the quiet zone before hitting the gas again and climbing out.

However, in that particular shot it looks like they are climbing at the usual rate.
 
spacecadet
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RE: Very Low Departure Out Of OGG? (Pics)

Sun Aug 21, 2005 4:21 pm

Could this possibly be a noise abatement departure?

Pretty sure the general idea in a noise abatement takeoff is to be as far away from houses as possible. That usually means climbing as quickly as possible, because distance is measured in height as well as length. I've been in noise abatement takeoffs in a 752 (taking off from LGA), and it's like you're in a rocket. Full power, ridiculous angle - it feels like you're going straight up. The one time I did it, we were probably at 1,000 feet before we even reached the end of the runway.

A 753 wouldn't have that level of performance but it would do better than this if required. Looking at the other image posted here, it seems all these houses are on one side of the extended runway centerline, so I would think any noise abatement procedure would also involve a quick turn in the other direction just after takeoff.
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lorm
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RE: Very Low Departure Out Of OGG? (Pics)

Sun Aug 21, 2005 4:35 pm

There are no noise abatement procedures listed on any of the departure plates for OGG. Most departures from runway 2 will fly heading 360 then be radar vectored.
-LorM
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Bluewave 707
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RE: Very Low Departure Out Of OGG? (Pics)

Sun Aug 21, 2005 5:56 pm

There's nothing unusual about the shot in the thread starter. 767s are quite common @ OGG for HA, DL, AA, UA, and CO. Most of them use alomost the entire runway for take-off.

Last summer, I was on HAL040 (OGG - PDX), and we rotated near the 6,000 foot mark, and the angle was initially was low, until we cleared the beach, then the angle increased. Of course, the heavies try to get a rolling start from the main taxiway, when they make the turn onto Rwy 2.
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BostonGuy
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RE: Very Low Departure Out Of OGG? (Pics)

Sun Aug 21, 2005 9:49 pm

Quoting UA777222 (Thread starter):
Is it common for airlines to make such a low departure over the city? Does the public have an issue with this?

The airport was built as a Naval Air Station in 1942 and commercial services began in 1951.

Looking at the relatively new houses in the photograph I think a better question would be, "Is it common for people to build homes directly under a flight path at the end of an active runway? Do the airlines and airport authorities have an issue with this?".
 
jsnww81
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RE: Very Low Departure Out Of OGG? (Pics)

Sun Aug 21, 2005 10:59 pm

I was on a 717 flying OGG-HNL in April 2004, and we didn't rotate until we'd reached the last 1,000 feet of runway. We went flying over the sand dunes at the end of the runway at VERY low altitude. I've been on dozens of takeoffs from Kahului and never seen anything that low - even on L1011s and DC10s (back when they served OGG.)

Regarding the houses in the photo - some of those estates are actually quite old. There is nothing directly beneath the departure path - just sand dunes - but there are housing estates on each side of the runway.

My great-grandmother's house was in Spreckelsville Beach, just slightly off the runway 2 centerline. In the late 1960s, the state used eminent domain proceedings to force her and two other landowners out - back then they were going to extend the runway out over the ocean, sort of like the reef runway in HNL. Of course, that never happened, and forty years later OGG is still trying to figure out how they'll ever extend that runway.
 
lorm
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RE: Very Low Departure Out Of OGG? (Pics)

Mon Aug 22, 2005 1:06 am

At OGG if runway 2/20 was extended south, they probably still would only end up with about 7000ft of displaced threshold for landing.

The problem with OGG is that about 2 miles out and 500ft to the left of 2/20 there are 200ft tall smokestacks of the sugar mill. You can clearly see those smokestacks on the left side of the aircraft by looking down at an angle on landing. I'm not sure on the FAA requirements on clearance but if they moved the ILS glideslope, TDZ markers, and VASIs farther back they might become an issue for obstacle clearance.

The sugarmill shut down in 2000, I'm not sure if the state keep it as a historic landmark, so who knows what they would do with the smokestacks.
-LorM
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BHMNONREV
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RE: Very Low Departure Out Of OGG? (Pics)

Mon Aug 22, 2005 1:51 am

Quoting LorM (Reply 18):
The sugarmill shut down in 2000, I'm not sure if the state keep it as a historic landmark, so who knows what they would do with the smokestacks.

Looks like if they demolished the smoke stacks, they could easily extend the runway 2 or 3,000 feet. In fact, in the photo it almost looks as if there is an outline for a runway extension...
 
jsnww81
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RE: Very Low Departure Out Of OGG? (Pics)

Mon Aug 22, 2005 4:12 am

I was under the impression that Puunene sugar mill was still operating and that it was the Paia sugar mill that was closed in 2000. The mill certainly looked active when I was on Maui last year.

Quoting BHMNONREV (Reply 19):
Looks like if they demolished the smoke stacks, they could easily extend the runway 2 or 3,000 feet. In fact, in the photo it almost looks as if there is an outline for a runway extension...

Back in 1988-1990, the state graded and leveled the land for the proposed runway extension, and the Haleakala Highway was rerouted around the future extension area (before that the road passed directly in front of the runway threshold and there were CAUTION: JET BLAST signs everywhere.)

During the same time period, HC&S (the company that managed the Puunene sugar mill) lopped the tops off their smoke stacks, to ensure that the runway extension wouldn't pose a problem. The stacks used to be much higher.

Besides, a displaced landing threshold wouldn't really pose a problem for OGG. The 767s and 777s do just fine landing on the current 7000-foot runway. The extension would help fully-loaded aircraft take off without weight restrictions. Of course, Maui's short-sighted residents don't want the increased tourism, and now that they've sent Linda Lingle to the state capitol, they're getting their wish (in the short term, anyhow).
 
lorm
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RE: Very Low Departure Out Of OGG? (Pics)

Mon Aug 22, 2005 4:35 am

Agreed, it definitely would help outbound loadfactors. Hopefully, the state interisland ferry will plan will go through at least.... Former Gov. Cayetano axed runway extension plans for what would have been a final length of 9600 feet in 2000 IIRC.
-LorM
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Newark777
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RE: Very Low Departure Out Of OGG? (Pics)

Mon Aug 22, 2005 5:54 am

Actually, they also have departures towards the beach...not just over the mountains.

Not very common, though, as they are mostly prop departures, with a few 737's and 757's thrown in there.

Really? Well geeze, I could of sworn those planes must be pretty damn low since they are ABOUT TO LAND when they go right over the beach. So what are you saying....they are about 1000 ft or what?

Don't get all pissy now, not everything is a personal attack against you. All I was saying is that the approach at SXM follows the same glideslope of any airport. But since people can stand nearly at the threshold, it is the closest people can get to landing aircraft. Therefore, people think they are low approaches, but really they are normal approaches with the people being closer to the airport than they normally are.

Harry
Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?

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