wjcandee
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NWA: 2nd Strike Day Not So Great

Mon Aug 22, 2005 1:59 am

Had a pretty thorough look at DTW operations as of about 1pm EST today. Interesting to see that most flights coming into the hub from outstations got off on time and in on time, but, once there, didn't do so well. An overall impression from examining flights to major destinations: NYC, MCO, LAX, SFO, PHX, LAS, DFW, ORD, etc. is that numerous flights started off the day well from the outstations but are not passing seamlessly through the hub. A fair percentage of the flights that I viewed were either canx for "irregular operations" or delayed due to unscheduled maintenance. Weather isn't a factor today.

That's not to say that it's a total meltdown. Well over half the flights I reviewed weren't affected at all. But after the first day went so well, perhaps some management folks got complacent.

We'll see what it looks like by the end of the day.

All the best,

Bill
 
flyibaby
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RE: NWA: 2nd Strike Day Not So Great

Mon Aug 22, 2005 2:03 am

I doubt its management's fault for being complacent. Tells me that this might be a crew's way of supporting the striking mechanics. Doesn't sound any different than a crew "crossing the t's and dotting the i's." Its a typical work slow down that to be honest, is legitimate in its ways.
 
hammer
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RE: NWA: 2nd Strike Day Not So Great

Mon Aug 22, 2005 2:06 am

As of 9:45 this morning there were 50 aircraft out of service...
 
Ralgha
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RE: NWA: 2nd Strike Day Not So Great

Mon Aug 22, 2005 2:09 am

Like I said, a maintenance strike doesn't bring things to a halt overnight, it takes time. It's building up.
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
 
UAXDXer
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RE: NWA: 2nd Strike Day Not So Great

Mon Aug 22, 2005 2:11 am

Does NWA managment really think it is going to be "business as usual" if this strike continues much longer?
It takes a bug to hit a windsheild but it takes guts to stick
 
Tornado82
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RE: NWA: 2nd Strike Day Not So Great

Mon Aug 22, 2005 2:15 am

Quoting Flyibaby (Reply 1):
Its a typical work slow down that to be honest, is legitimate in its ways.

Yep. Screws the passengers who pay all the salaries at NWA, that's all, not the airline management. I'm currently begging CO to re-route me off of a codeshared flight operated by NW next week because I don't want stranded when the clowns keep this crap up. The passengers don't have sympathy for your mechanics as long as their plane gets them from A to B safely and expediously. Now that your people are doing a "typical work slow down" that is "legitimate" the passengers will be PO-ed. It's not legitimate to little Johnny who was going on a plane ride for the first time to go see Mickey Mouse. It's not legitimate to the kid flying to college for the semester. It's not legitimate to the grieving person going to a funeral either. THE PASSENGERS ARE THE ONES YOU ARE HURTING!!! The same stuff which affected US at PHL after the baggage slowdown/sick-out will now affect NW @ DTW due to similar circumstances. So when your passengers go away, who cares how much your union guys got their salaries cut? No pax = no flights = no airline = no salaries.
 
L-188
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RE: NWA: 2nd Strike Day Not So Great

Mon Aug 22, 2005 2:34 am

Quoting Wjcandee (Thread starter):
Interesting to see that most flights coming into the hub from outstations got off on time and in on time, but, once there, didn't do so well. An overall impression from examining flights to major destinations: NYC, MCO, LAX, SFO, PHX, LAS, DFW, ORD, etc. is that numerous flights started off the day well from the outstations but are not passing seamlessly through the hub.

So they are doing no worse then Alaska Airlines did this summer?
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
hammer
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RE: NWA: 2nd Strike Day Not So Great

Mon Aug 22, 2005 2:37 am

Quoting UAXDXer (Reply 4):
Does NWA managment really think it is going to be "business as usual" if this strike continues much longer

If NWA can make it 2 weeks they will be fine, this was according to people on CNN last night...
 
CO767FA
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RE: NWA: 2nd Strike Day Not So Great

Mon Aug 22, 2005 2:56 am

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 5):
THE PASSENGERS ARE THE ONES YOU ARE HURTING!!!

That is how the message gets "hit" home to management.
 
727LOVER
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RE: NWA: 2nd Strike Day Not So Great

Mon Aug 22, 2005 3:01 am

How many flights were cancelled yesterday on Day 1 (non-weather)?
"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
pdxtriple7
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RE: NWA: 2nd Strike Day Not So Great

Mon Aug 22, 2005 3:12 am

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 5):
The passengers don't have sympathy for your mechanics as long as their plane gets them from A to B safely and expediously. Now that your people are doing a "typical work slow down" that is "legitimate" the passengers will be PO-ed. It's not legitimate to little Johnny who was going on a plane ride for the first time to go see Mickey Mouse. It's not legitimate to the kid flying to college for the semester. It's not legitimate to the grieving person going to a funeral either. THE PASSENGERS ARE THE ONES YOU ARE HURTING!!!

I completely agree. I feel bad for the stranded passengers and not the striking mechanics at this point.
 
727LOVER
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RE: NWA: 2nd Strike Day Not So Great

Mon Aug 22, 2005 3:15 am

Quoting PDXtriple7 (Reply 10):
I completely agree. I feel bad for the stranded passengers and not the striking mechanics at this point.

But didn't the passenger have a month too CHANGE AIRLINES????
"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: NWA: 2nd Strike Day Not So Great

Mon Aug 22, 2005 3:25 am

Quoting CO767FA (Reply 8):
Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 5):
THE PASSENGERS ARE THE ONES YOU ARE HURTING!!!

That is how the message gets "hit" home to management.

Well, perhaps you and the NW machanics can learn, in your next job:

"Would you like fries with that, sir/ma'am"?

Remember, most passengers will not go back to an airline that pissed them off, as long as they have a choice.

That is why I will never fly AA, US, or UA again, if I have a choice about when and where I need to go.

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 5):
Yep. Screws the passengers who pay all the salaries at NWA, that's all, not the airline management. I'm currently begging CO to re-route me off of a codeshared flight operated by NW next week because I don't want stranded when the clowns keep this crap up. The passengers don't have sympathy for your mechanics as long as their plane gets them from A to B safely and expediously. Now that your people are doing a "typical work slow down" that is "legitimate" the passengers will be PO-ed. It's not legitimate to little Johnny who was going on a plane ride for the first time to go see Mickey Mouse. It's not legitimate to the kid flying to college for the semester. It's not legitimate to the grieving person going to a funeral either. THE PASSENGERS ARE THE ONES YOU ARE HURTING!!! The same stuff which affected US at PHL after the baggage slowdown/sick-out will now affect NW @ DTW due to similar circumstances. So when your passengers go away, who cares how much your union guys got their salaries cut? No pax = no flights = no airline = no salaries.

Very well said,Tornado82. Can I add something to those on strike or work slow down at NW? Remember, when you are out of your job, because you ran your employer into the ground, that the union bosses (who you so blindly followed) still have their job.
 
SHUPirate1
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RE: NWA: 2nd Strike Day Not So Great

Mon Aug 22, 2005 3:29 am

That's funny...the Minneapolis Star-Tribune is reporting something totally different:

http://startribune.com/stories/535/5571345.html
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solehibob
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RE: NWA: 2nd Strike Day Not So Great

Mon Aug 22, 2005 3:33 am

The day is very very young...tomorrow is the crunch
 
aviationwiz
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RE: NWA: 2nd Strike Day Not So Great

Mon Aug 22, 2005 3:34 am

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 11):
But didn't the passenger have a month too CHANGE AIRLINES????

Yes they most certaintly did.

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 5):
THE PASSENGERS ARE THE ONES YOU ARE HURTING!!!

Exactly. They have been left with no choice. Blame the cheap, stingy management, not the mechanics.

I sure don't see the mechanics demanding the management take a 20% pay cut and 53% lay-off's, while they give themselves hundreds of thousands of dollars of bonuses.
Proudly from the Home of the Red Tail.
 
commavia
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RE: NWA: 2nd Strike Day Not So Great

Mon Aug 22, 2005 3:36 am

I think it's now clear, into day two of the strike, that the more moderated prediction on its outcome have at least thus far proven to be true -- it's going better than AMFA predicted, but not as good as management predicted, as there are still at least a few "unscheduled maintenace" or "irregular operations" delays in DTW and MSP.

All in all, though, I'd say days one and two have been an enormous P.R. triumph for NW, as they have thus far been able to pretty much (not completely, but for the most part) live up to their promise of getting people where they were scheduled to be fairly on-time. Now, of course, as the union's reps said on the news, this is only the second day. As maintenance issues and MELs accumulate, it will be up to the new replacements to handle them quickly, efficiently and, most importantly, safely. If delays start stacking up this coming week, then NW could just snatch defeat from victory, by vindicating the union's predictions of massive delays, cancellations and disruptions.
 
DeltaA380
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RE: NWA: 2nd Strike Day Not So Great

Mon Aug 22, 2005 3:47 am

I have said it before and I will say it again; things are going from bad to worse in this country in that we are running out of jobs that pay a living wage. Some of this may have to do with outsourcing to other countries, which is great for the CEO who is in her/his position for the next few years but it is a dismal prospect for the future. This NW work action is just another example of the fight that harkens back to the days when trade unions were young. The problem which we have more control over is management/union relations which are abysmal in this country due to a history of confrontation rather than collabaration. Unions and management don't really want different things; they ultimately all want and need a profitable company and actually, a profitable economy as a whole. The sad thing, as some of our European posters have mentioned, is that it doesn't have to be like this.

Even though I have little sympathy for this particularly union, I can't blame them for fighting NW on this. Besides the history of tense labor relations with management, cutting 53% of mechanics jobs is simply mind boggling. Those of you that are bashing the unions efforts (bashing some of their tactics are appropriate,) may want to think long and hard about your own job security. Whether in labor or management, whether in the airline industry or not, where this country has gone in the past 5 years does not bode well for any of our job security.
Vote Democratic in '06 and '08
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: NWA: 2nd Strike Day Not So Great

Mon Aug 22, 2005 3:55 am

>> Tells me that this might be a crew's way of supporting the striking mechanics. Doesn't sound any different than a crew "crossing the t's and dotting the i's." Its a typical work slow down that to be honest, is legitimate in its ways.

Not quite, work-to-rule action is not considered unlawful, but workers engaging in such action are not protected by U.S. labor law and can be fired at their employer's discretion. However, I do think that NW has other things on their mind at the moment...
 
ual777
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RE: NWA: 2nd Strike Day Not So Great

Mon Aug 22, 2005 4:00 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 12):
Remember, most passengers will not go back to an airline that pissed them off, as long as they have a choice.

That is why I will never fly AA, US, or UA again, if I have a choice about when and where I need to go.

Thats just ignorent. Everyone here knows that airlines have bad days. But its ok CK135, you've already knocked off AA,US, and AA, and with the way the industry is now, maybe in another 2 years, you will be down to just Hooter's Air......  Wink
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
pdxtriple7
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RE: NWA: 2nd Strike Day Not So Great

Mon Aug 22, 2005 4:05 am

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 11):
But didn't the passenger have a month too CHANGE AIRLINES????

Point of clarification: Were they given the option to change airlines without penalities? Regardless, it is still a pain.
 
NWAFA
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RE: NWA: 2nd Strike Day Not So Great

Mon Aug 22, 2005 4:06 am

DeltaA380

BINGO!!! Thank you for getting it. Having hard working AMERICAN's loosing their jobs over and over to get outsourced has to come to an end. From a Corporation point of view, yea its great, helps the bottom line - but in this great country that we live in, bottom lines have totally taken over the American dreams and hopes.
THANK YOU FOR FLYING NORTHWEST AIRLINES, WE TRULY APPRECIATE YOUR BUSINESS!
 
Fleet Service
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RE: NWA: 2nd Strike Day Not So Great

Mon Aug 22, 2005 4:34 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 12):
Remember, most passengers will not go back to an airline that pissed them off, as long as they have a choice.

The Christmas meltdown in PHL hasn't driven people away from UAIR all that much now has it?

Passengers have short memories, as long as they get that $99.00 round trip.
Yes, I actually *do* work for an airline,how about you?
 
flyibaby
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RE: NWA: 2nd Strike Day Not So Great

Mon Aug 22, 2005 4:55 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 18):
Not quite, work-to-rule action is not considered unlawful, but workers engaging in such action are not protected by U.S. labor law and can be fired at their employer's discretion. However, I do think that NW has other things on their mind at the moment...

DfwRevolution

When I said it is legitimate, it is. I'm not referring to a group of people unwilling to cross a picket line. I'm referring to pilots doing write up's upon arrival into lets say DTW or MSP that ordinarilly they would be willing to fly with. Now all of a sudden, they are more "particular" with making sure all items no matter how small...say a passenger light bulb be written up and signed off by MX. Every airline experiences this, only normally it is during the pilot's contract negotiations.
 
tripple7
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RE: NWA: 2nd Strike Day Not So Great

Mon Aug 22, 2005 5:00 am

Does anyone have some information on how this is affectiing KLM's operations to the US? NW is doing KLM ops in the US, so this might eventually affect KLM.
 
CO767FA
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RE: NWA: 2nd Strike Day Not So Great

Mon Aug 22, 2005 5:10 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 12):
Well, perhaps you and the NW mechanics can learn, in your next job:

"Would you like fries with that, sir/ma'am"?

Once again, your post serves to show how ignorant some people can be; what makes you think I will end up working for McDonald's. Many on the front line hold advanced degrees, work second careers and are entrepreneurs.

So, go spread your antiquated thoughts elsewhere.  footinmouth 
 
filejw
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RE: NWA: 2nd Strike Day Not So Great

Mon Aug 22, 2005 5:12 am

One of the things they are doing is cleaning up all the extra MEL's that were generated in the last few weeks.Trying to get the logbook's clean.
 
777Purser
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RE: NWA: 2nd Strike Day Not So Great

Mon Aug 22, 2005 5:17 am

Management has spent money on replacement workers training, aparently, they are not properly qualified. The Union representing the mechanics did offer cocessions, but 53% OF THE MEMBERSHIP OUT OF A JOB AND 26% PAYCUT IS UNACEPTABLE. Enough is enough already.

Remember executives just got bonuses ranging $100.000 to $400,000 bonuses last week. PASSENGERS: Get angry at greedy management not as the working americans. I was glad to read my union issued a statement in solidarity with the mechanics at NWA (apfa.org). I too join them in their struggle to keep their jobs. I am glad UPS pilots wont take NW cargo wither. There is support out there...NO FEAR. Hopefully the strike will forrce management to negotiate in good faith.

I am curiuos to know if the wannabe SCAB FA's got to fly as the FA's could not join the mechanics in a sympathy strike ( I suspect a sympathy strike would have been ilegal, every work group has to go their own process before striking) Anyone has any info on what happened to the "replacement FA's"?

My guess is they are not flying....if so.....I warned them of that possibility. Again, my solidarity to the Northwest mechanics.

In Unity,
777purser
 
NWAFA
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RE: NWA: 2nd Strike Day Not So Great

Mon Aug 22, 2005 5:24 am

777Purser,

First of all, THANK YOU for your words - you hit on right on the head.

The SCAB trained (so called trained) Flight Attendendants have NOT been used. If and when, we all know who they are as their employee numbers begin with 4's (not the 0, 1, or 2 like the other 11,000 of us). When they are finally used, they will be PFAA members.
THANK YOU FOR FLYING NORTHWEST AIRLINES, WE TRULY APPRECIATE YOUR BUSINESS!
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: NWA: 2nd Strike Day Not So Great

Mon Aug 22, 2005 5:28 am

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 5):
Screws the passengers who pay all the salaries at NWA

Who DON'T pay the salaries, actually - and that's the problem. The passengers are demanding ridiculously low fares that do not actually cover the cost of doing business.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 12):
Remember, most passengers will not go back to an airline that pissed them off

Horsefeathers. Most passengers will go to any airline that will save them ten bucks.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
KabAir
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RE: NWA: 2nd Strike Day Not So Great

Mon Aug 22, 2005 5:53 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 29):
The passengers are demanding ridiculously low fares that do not actually cover the cost of doing business.

Really? Last time I booked an airline ticket I went to the airline's website, put in the dates I wanted to fly, and the site basically said "Ok this is how much the ticket is. Want to buy it?" and I said "yep". I don't recall the website having a "haggling phase" where I demanded a lower fare and the airline finally gave in. Don't blame me for taking the fare that the airline offered.

I think a lot of people have lost site of reality on this forum because we all love airlines and airplanes so much. You all yell about "liveable wages" and needing to "pay more for tickets". But let me ask this: Are you ready to fork over $20 for a big mac meal? How about $75 dollars for jeans at Wal-Mart? What about $10 per pound for apples at Albertsons. There are A LOT of people who would like to make higher wages - not just airline employees. So if you say passengers need to pay higher fares to support wages that you feel airline employees deserve (because you love this industry), then you'd better be ready to pay $50 the next time you go out for ice cream at Dairy Queen so that the kid scooping ice cream can make $50,000 per year.
wow, there sure are a lot of expert economists on this forum....
 
syncmaster
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RE: NWA: 2nd Strike Day Not So Great

Mon Aug 22, 2005 5:55 am

Quoting DeltaA380 (Reply 17):
Those of you that are bashing the unions efforts (bashing some of their tactics are appropriate,) may want to think long and hard about your own job security.

I did think long and hard, the more they strike, the more third-party contractors (like the one I work for) get work, and therefore that means I get more work. No one is making the mechanics work for Northwest, it's every man for himself and if they don't like it, they can move on.

They are only hurting themselves.

[Edited 2005-08-21 22:57:53]
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: NWA: 2nd Strike Day Not So Great

Mon Aug 22, 2005 6:09 am

Quoting KabAir (Reply 30):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 29):
The passengers are demanding ridiculously low fares that do not actually cover the cost of doing business.

Really? Last time I booked an airline ticket I went to the airline's website, put in the dates I wanted to fly, and the site basically said "Ok this is how much the ticket is. Want to buy it?" and I said "yep". I don't recall the website having a "haggling phase" where I demanded a lower fare and the airline finally gave in. Don't blame me for taking the fare that the airline offered.

And when management raises the fare, even modestly, the customer balks. And when increases in fuel are passed along, the customer balks. And when increased government taxation is factored in, the customer balks.

So the customers who have become accustomed to paying low fares for so long that they view them as a constitutional right won't even consider anything under what they've historically paid for the past 10 years.

When airlines raise fares to keep up with rising costs - much as any other business in any other industry does - for some reason the customer sees these increases as unfair, unjust, or just plain wrong. Whatever the reason, they just don't like the fact that the cost is more than what they paid 1, 5, or even 10 years back. End result? They don't buy tickets.

So the airline, being incredibly dependent on a constant influx of revenue, lowers fares to stimulate demand. The customer, not knowing any better, thinks, "Oh - well this must mean this is REALLY what it costs for this ticket, and I should NEVER pay any more than this - EVER!"

So it's a cycle of stupidity on both parts, to be sure - but the fact of the matter is that the airline employees end up subsidizing those lower fares via pay and benefit reductions.

But please, unless you're completely ignorant, don't act like consumer behavior isn't partially responsible for the state of the industry today.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
bobnwa
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RE: NWA: 2nd Strike Day Not So Great

Mon Aug 22, 2005 6:22 am

Quoting 777PURSER (Reply 27):
Remember executives just got bonuses ranging $100.000 to $400,000 bonuses last week

Source for this info please.
 
KabAir
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RE: NWA: 2nd Strike Day Not So Great

Mon Aug 22, 2005 6:22 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 32):
So the customers who have become accustomed to paying low fares for so long that they view them as a constitutional right won't even consider anything under what they've historically paid for the past 10 years.

When airlines raise fares to keep up with rising costs - much as any other business in any other industry does - for some reason the customer sees these increases as unfair, unjust, or just plain wrong. Whatever the reason, they just don't like the fact that the cost is more than what they paid 1, 5, or even 10 years back. End result? They don't buy tickets.

Customers refusing to buy goods or services they don't want to pay for?! The NERVE!!!! How dare Mrs. Smith not buy an airline ticket if she doesn't want it. My wife recently decided to stop buying ice cream every week because prices have gone up around here and it's just not in our budget now. I'm going to march her over to Ben and Jerry's this evening and make her apologize for not buying their ice cream anymore. She's hurting the jobs of Ben and Jerry's workers and they can't make a profit if they sell her ice cream at the price she bought it at last year. But that's her fault - she needs to be buying it whether she wants it or not and whether she can afford it or not. That stupid selfish wife of mine. (This message furnished by the Ben and Jerry Union of America).
wow, there sure are a lot of expert economists on this forum....
 
halls120
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RE: NWA: 2nd Strike Day Not So Great

Mon Aug 22, 2005 7:14 am

Quoting DeltaA380 (Reply 17):
I have said it before and I will say it again; things are going from bad to worse in this country in that we are running out of jobs that pay a living wage.

As I understand it, NW mechanics are being asked to take a pay cut from 70K to 52K. Since when is $52,000 a year not a "living wage?"

Quoting DeltaA380 (Reply 17):
Even though I have little sympathy for this particularly union, I can't blame them for fighting NW on this. Besides the history of tense labor relations with management, cutting 53% of mechanics jobs is simply mind boggling. Those of you that are bashing the unions efforts (bashing some of their tactics are appropriate,) may want to think long and hard about your own job security. Whether in labor or management, whether in the airline industry or not, where this country has gone in the past 5 years does not bode well for any of our job security.

You think cutting 53% of the mechanics is "mind boggling?" Did you ever think that perhaps NW has been overstaffed for many years? In any case, NW has made the business decision that it needs to seek wage concessions and job cuts in order to stay competitive with their competitors. What else would you have them do?
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
blrsea
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RE: NWA: 2nd Strike Day Not So Great

Mon Aug 22, 2005 7:29 am

Blaming the customers for preferring low fares is stupid. Who wants to pay more fares? The people working in airline industry get discounted or free tickets by their companies and so they might not worry about the fares. What about the regular folks? If I can afford only $300 for a ticket, and if all airlines start at $350, I would rather not fly. Why blame me for it? I am prudent enough not to borrow when I can't afford it. I can't say the same for the airline industry. Some of the LCCs like jetblue or southwest can afford to sell fares at low prices and they do. It is upto the legacy companies to see whether they can really afford to match the LCC's prices given their cost structure. If not, they are better off selling off some off their assets and routes and concentrating on smaller, efficient operations. Asking employees to work at last decade's prices is simply ridiculous.
Don't blame the customers or the employees, blame the people in the management. And I think NWA has already decided to file for bankruptcy before Oct 17th, when the new law kicks in. And that's the reason for them to play hardball.
 
halls120
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RE: NWA: 2nd Strike Day Not So Great

Mon Aug 22, 2005 7:32 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 29):
Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 5):
Screws the passengers who pay all the salaries at NWA

Who DON'T pay the salaries, actually - and that's the problem. The passengers are demanding ridiculously low fares that do not actually cover the cost of doing business.

It's amazing how many times I see the above inaccurate statement. Passengers are not the culprits. When LCC's like WN and B6 began offering low fares that they could actually make money on, the legacy carriers had to match them or go out of business. For example, when B6 came into Dulles, UA had to lower their fares to match them. Are you suggesting that instead of flying B6 when I fly to OAK, I should pay UA $100 more for the same ticket?

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 29):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 12):
Remember, most passengers will not go back to an airline that pissed them off

Horsefeathers. Most passengers will go to any airline that will save them ten bucks.

KC135 is correct. I won't fly US unless I absolutely have to, thanks to several flights where service was absolutely abysmal. Even if they are cheaper.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 32):
And when management raises the fare, even modestly, the customer balks. And when increases in fuel are passed along, the customer balks. And when increased government taxation is factored in, the customer balks.

So the customers who have become accustomed to paying low fares for so long that they view them as a constitutional right won't even consider anything under what they've historically paid for the past 10 years.

But please, unless you're completely ignorant, don't act like consumer behavior isn't partially responsible for the state of the industry today.

BS. I don't see WN or B6 (or AA, in fact) having any problems making a profit.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
UAcosCS
Posts: 380
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2005 6:18 am

RE: NWA: 2nd Strike Day Not So Great

Mon Aug 22, 2005 8:14 am

Quoting Hammer (Reply 7):
If NWA can make it 2 Weeks they will be fine, this was according to people on CNN last night...

lets hope for the best!

Quoting CO767FA (Reply 8):
Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 5):
THE PASSENGERS ARE THE ONES YOU ARE HURTING!!!

That is how the message gets "hit" home to management.

If United and their summer from hell hasn't tough us anything, the traveling public have a very small memory. Call it an ignorant statement but in 2 months this will be a bad dream, low fares and unions happy? means they will flock back in droves.

They have to fly somebody, and if your from DTW/MSP they will win the customer back and all is well.
We had dreams and songs to sing, It's so lonely round the fields of Athenry.
 
slider
Posts: 6850
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

RE: NWA: 2nd Strike Day Not So Great

Mon Aug 22, 2005 8:19 am

Quoting DeltaA380 (Reply 17):
I have said it before and I will say it again; things are going from bad to worse in this country in that we are running out of jobs that pay a living wage.

Nonsense.

Without getting into a total rant about outsourcing and such, I would say that the immediate issues specific to the airline industry don't reflect the macro economy. It is OUR industry that is struggling more than most, and cost pressures are a big part of that.

While some carriers have already taken care of reducing their labor CASM to an acceptable cost, NW didn't the first time, so they had to double-dip. Stupid move. And a more stupid move than to ink that first AMFA contract in the first place which left them bloated with a horribly uncompetitive contract, even before 9/11.

Don't play that living wage card, that dog won't hunt.
 
777Purser
Posts: 215
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 4:47 pm

RE: NWA: 2nd Strike Day Not So Great

Mon Aug 22, 2005 8:41 am

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 33):
Source for this info please.

USA TODAY, August 12, 2005:

Article: Northwest Details Back Up Plans if Mechanics Strike


Quote:

"...Ludwig also criticized Steenland, operations chief Andy Roberts and executive vice presidents Tim Griffin and Phil Haan for accepting bonuses ranging from $100,000 to $445,000 each while pressing for deep labor concessions."

Satisfied?
 
transair737
Posts: 66
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2005 9:31 am

RE: NWA: 2nd Strike Day Not So Great

Mon Aug 22, 2005 8:41 am

Quoting PDXtriple7 (Reply 20):
Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 11):But didn't the passenger have a month too CHANGE AIRLINES????
Point of clarification: Were they given the option to change airlines without penalities? Regardless, it is still a pain.

Exactly, I am not aware of passengers who booked on NW months ago being able cancel their flight and receive a refund. I have several friends traveling to MSP for a wedding next weekend most of the were unaware of the labour problems until I pointed it out to them. The general public, who does not follow the industry, gets screwed in these situations.
 
User avatar
PA110
Posts: 1897
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2003 1:30 am

RE: NWA: 2nd Strike Day Not So Great

Mon Aug 22, 2005 8:43 am

Quoting PDXtriple7 (Reply 20):
Point of clarification: Were they given the option to change airlines without penalities? Regardless, it is still a pain.

No airline allows changes pre-emptively. Commercial policies are only put into place once a disruption actually occurs. So no, passengers who has already purchased their tickets, did NOT have a month to make changes. They were locked into whatever restrictions were part of their purchase. Changing to another carrier is only permitted once an actual disruption occurs.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 32):
And when management raises the fare, even modestly, the customer balks. And when increases in fuel are passed along, the customer balks. And when increased government taxation is factored in, the customer balks.

No No No!!! The customer doesn't balk. The problem is that there are other airlines that can offer the prodct more cheaply and efficiently. What airline employees continuously lose sight of, and it amazes me that some of you don't seem to get it - the customer makes a choice based on what is presented to him. Like someone previously said - there is no haggling! If NW's cost structure prevents them from offering a fare at a lower price, but another carrier can - the customer is still only taking what is offered. They are not saying "no I won't pay that, give me something cheaper".
It's been swell, but the swelling has gone down.
 
cactusTECH
Posts: 204
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2005 12:11 am

RE: NWA: 2nd Strike Day Not So Great

Mon Aug 22, 2005 9:09 am

ALOT of Sympathy we have for NWA mechanics from AWA MX . you guys are doing the right thing and is not fair an airplane mechanic to get lower wages than a car mechanic COME ON!!! planes dont stop in clouds people. Those guys are proffessionals and know what they do! You think some guy from the street with some experience is gonna know the airplane in a week ? a month ? it takes maybe years to be an expert.. GIVE NWA a week and well see how bad their gonna do when THEY RUN OUT of MELS and start grounding everything!!!!!!!!!!
 
ballpeeen
Posts: 76
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2005 8:05 am

RE: NWA: 2nd Strike Day Not So Great

Mon Aug 22, 2005 9:35 am

Quoting PA110 (Reply 42):
No No No!!! The customer doesn't balk. The problem is that there are other airlines that can offer the prodct more cheaply and efficiently.

Not really. Very, very few airlines have lower bottom-line costs than any other carrier. The advantage goes to companies that have unrestricted cash access, good credit, and in some cases, bankruptcy protection. These carriers can absorb the crippling lack of revenue. The ones that can absorb it long enough will watch as the others go out of business.
That's part of a free-market economy, as are labor strikes.
What the airlines should do, IMHO, is to raise ticket prices into the profitable range. There will be some load factor loss initially, but when people realize that gas is $3/gallon, and that they can't really drive anywhere much cheaper than they fly, then they will come back.
 
crogalski
Posts: 477
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 8:09 am

RE: NWA: 2nd Strike Day Not So Great

Mon Aug 22, 2005 9:46 am

Today in TPA, I saw only 1 flight from 4a-2p, when there is usually 4 or 5.. The bagroom was mostly empty for this time, when it was usually staffed by two or three people daily..
A319 A320 A321 A330 B717 B727 B737 B747 B757 B767 CRJ200 CRJ700 CRJ900 DC9 E145 E190 MD88 Q400 | AA AB B6 CO DL EI FL NK
 
warszawa
Posts: 549
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 11:37 am

RE: NWA: 2nd Strike Day Not So Great

Mon Aug 22, 2005 9:53 am

Quoting UAL777 (Reply 19):
Thats just ignorent. Everyone here knows that airlines have bad days. But its ok CK135, you've already knocked off AA,US, and AA, and with the way the industry is now, maybe in another 2 years, you will be down to just Hooter's Air......

I'll agree with KC135. I wont fly NWA (No - it has nothing to do with the strike, I've refused to fly them since last year) for specific reasons, unless, like Halls120, I absolutely have to.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 37):
KC135 is correct. I won't fly US unless I absolutely have to, thanks to several flights where service was absolutely abysmal. Even if they are cheaper.

Same here...I'll pay an extra $10, $20 to fly Delta, Continental, or some other carrier versus Northwest (as I said above - not related to the strike).

Someone mentioned that most passengers have short term memory with their travel experiences. My other family members who have also had particularly bad experiences on certain airlines... believe me, dont have short term memory. My relatives, who have zero-knowledge of aviation recall what airlines gave them a grueling time on their trips...or how horrible the flight was, or how nasty condition their aircraft was in.

If anyones ever watched Airline...recent episode, large group of people stuck in BWI because the "BUF" flight tookoff on schedule (because the connecting pax's flight from FLL was delayed), Southwest didnt want to wait or delay the flight. Most were offered "BWI-MDW-CLE", and drive from Cleveland to BUF. Most were told the next non-fully booked flight to BUF was in 2-3 days. Their compensation? Zero. Majority ended up renting a car and driving to BUF on their expense from Baltimore. Then others had to drive from CLE, at their expense. And if they didnt, they'd be paying for the hotel to spend the extra 2-3 days in BWI.

Case in point? You mean to tell me they'll be flying Southwest next time? Or that they'll forget such an incident?  rotfl 
Flying a plane is no diff. from riding a bicycle. Its just a lot harder to put baseball cards in the spokes. -'Airplane'
 
solehibob
Posts: 47
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2005 1:18 pm

RE: NWA: 2nd Strike Day Not So Great

Mon Aug 22, 2005 10:06 am

Quoting Crogalski (Reply 45):



Quoting Crogalski (Reply 45):
Today in TPA, I saw only 1 flight from 4a-2p, when there is usually 4 or 5.. The bagroom was mostly empty for this time, when it was usually staffed by two or three people daily..

This is going to be bad, the media is just starting to catch wind of all this. Tomorrow will be a disaster.
 
BostonGuy
Posts: 484
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2000 5:49 am

RE: NWA: 2nd Strike Day Not So Great

Mon Aug 22, 2005 10:10 am

Quoting DeltaA380 (Reply 17):
Those of you that are bashing the unions efforts (bashing some of their tactics are appropriate,) may want to think long and hard about your own job security.

Hundreds of thousands of Americans not in the airline industry LOST their jobs before you were even asked to take a pay cut. Think about that!

Quoting CO767FA (Reply 25):
Many on the front line hold advanced degrees, work second careers and are entrepreneurs.

That happens everywhere... what's the point?

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 29):
Who DON'T pay the salaries, actually - and that's the problem. The passengers are demanding ridiculously low fares that do not actually cover the cost of doing business.

Hmmm....

Quoting KabAir (Reply 30):
Really? Last time I booked an airline ticket I went to the airline's website, put in the dates I wanted to fly, and the site basically said "Ok this is how much the ticket is. Want to buy it?" and I said "yep". I don't recall the website having a "haggling phase" where I demanded a lower fare and the airline finally gave in. Don't blame me for taking the fare that the airline offered.

Bravo!

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 32):
But please, unless you're completely ignorant, don't act like consumer behavior isn't partially responsible for the state of the industry today.

Part of being a business, in any industry, means having to account for consumer behavior. Understanding consumer behavior is far different than blaming consumers for a company's ills (which you have been doing). That's what's ignorant.

Quoting KabAir (Reply 34):
Customers refusing to buy goods or services they don't want to pay for?! The NERVE!!!! How dare Mrs. Smith not buy an airline ticket if she doesn't want it. My wife recently decided to stop buying ice cream every week because prices have gone up around here and it's just not in our budget now. I'm going to march her over to Ben and Jerry's this evening and make her apologize for not buying their ice cream anymore. She's hurting the jobs of Ben and Jerry's workers and they can't make a profit if they sell her ice cream at the price she bought it at last year. But that's her fault - she needs to be buying it whether she wants it or not and whether she can afford it or not. That stupid selfish wife of mine. (This message furnished by the Ben and Jerry Union of America).

KabAir, thanks for taking the time to respond to EA CO AS. It boggles the mind how little he understands business.

But, I have a question. I don't get my ice cream at Ben & Jerry's. I get it at a locally owned ice cream shop. Am I still responsible for potential job losses at Ben & Jerry's? Do I need to eat Ben & Jerry's ice cream to be socially responsible? And Breyer's Ice Cream has a plant outside Boston... do I need to buy Breyer's Ice Cream, too?

What am I going to do with all this ice cream?
 
LUVRSW
Posts: 481
Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2005 11:15 pm

RE: NWA: 2nd Strike Day Not So Great

Mon Aug 22, 2005 10:25 am

Quoting BostonGuy (Reply 48):
But, I have a question. I don't get my ice cream at Ben & Jerry's. I get it at a locally owned ice cream shop. Am I still responsible for potential job losses at Ben & Jerry's? Do I need to eat Ben & Jerry's ice cream to be socially responsible? And Breyer's Ice Cream has a plant outside Boston... do I need to buy Breyer's Ice Cream, too?

What am I going to do with all this ice cream?

that's some funny shitt there BG!

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