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N328KF
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Montréal: Why YUL Over YMX?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 5:07 am

Why did Aéroports de Montréal choose YUL for future development at the expense of YMX? YMX is further out, to be sure, but has a lot more land, and would seem to have less of a NIMBY problem.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
caribb
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RE: Montréal: Why YUL Over YMX?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 5:23 am

Oh man you just opened a can of worms..... watch the fun begin and enjoy it before it's locked down.

Ok.. it's probably less to do with the physical airport than the strategy and roles they played... combined with the way the airline industry evolved into alliance groups.. Air Canada's role.. Toronto's growth... and all sorts of nasty political manoeuvering.... in the end choosing YUL was likely the cheapest and fastest way Montreal could survive the changes in the industry and competition from Toronto... but someone out there will tell you why I am soooo wrong....

[Edited 2005-08-21 22:38:15]
 
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ZSOFN
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RE: Montréal: Why YUL Over YMX?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 5:30 am

Airliner World (January 2005) did a special on YMX after it closed pax operations. It seemed YUL, being AC's 2nd largest hub, continued to attract most of the international/intercontinental scheduled traffic and YMX just couldn't get them out of town. In order to compete with YYZ Montreal wanted to consolidate its air traffic.

That's what I could interpret from the article but I'm no expert and won't put up a fight if someone more knowledgeable shows me to be wrong.
 
Type-Rated
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RE: Montréal: Why YUL Over YMX?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 5:55 am

This subject pops up now and then and is usually the source of some of the most heated debates ever to hit a.net!

There are so many sides and political angles to the final decision and money just thrown away that it's almost impossible to count them all!
Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
 
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ZSOFN
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RE: Montréal: Why YUL Over YMX?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 5:57 am

Quoting Type-Rated (Reply 3):
This subject pops up now and then and is usually the source of some of the most heated debates ever to hit a.net!

Didn't know that! Hmm maybe I shouldn't have posted...  worried   box 
 
ExPedia
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RE: Montréal: Why YUL Over YMX?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 6:13 am

Yes, mon ami, this is one for the ages  Smile

However, in a nutshell, YMX was a political decision back in the day that was never FORCED to work - so momentum and location meant it never did. Not to mention that it was way out of town compared to the close-in location of YUL, the brutal pax connections by bus, and operations duplications and complexity the two remote terminals drove.

It was (possibly) a well intentioned concept back when, but simply never took hold. If they had just shut YUL down (not saying that they should have, but...) then things would be different. But as long as it was there, it was almost gravity that one day things would consolidate there again.

Of course, in many ways, it's too late as YYZ has a commanding lead as Canada's premier transatlantic international gateway at this point and shows no signs of stopping unless they truly price themselves out of the market.
-- ExPedia
 
Joost
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RE: Montr�al: Why YUL Over YMX?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 6:51 am

YMX was among other reasons built as YUL was not having enough capacity. Back at the time, when there weren't such long-range airliners as now, many airlines from Europe made a stop in YUL before continuing to other airports in North-America.

When YMX was completed, there were longer range airliners, making the stop in Montreal obsolete. Capacity was relieved, and there was not really longer the need for two airports. And in the end, as already stated, many people preferred YUL.

The whole YMX project also never really took off. A rail connection was planned, but never materialized.
 
ac7e7
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RE: Montréal: Why YUL Over YMX?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 7:06 am

Quoting Joost (Reply 6):
The whole YMX project also never really took off. A rail connection was planned, but never materialized.

...a rail connection, a hwy extention, and urban expansion...which never materialized thanks to the separatist threat.
 
flyyul
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RE: Montréal: Why YUL Over YMX?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 7:09 am

Well dont ya worry.

One day in our generation, we will be heading back to YMX.
 
ac7e7
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RE: Montréal: Why YUL Over YMX?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 7:18 am

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 8):
One day in our generation, we will be heading back to YMX

I won't be holding my breath.
 
brilondon
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RE: Montréal: Why YUL Over YMX?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 7:29 am

Quoting N328KF (Thread starter):
would seem to have less of a NIMBY problem.

This would be the case if YUL were not in an industrial area of west Montreal and not a lot of people live in this area immediate to the airport. YUL has just undergone a major restoration and is able to handle the present and future air traffic demands. I have read reports in the Globe and Mail that YMX is to be returned to the local farmers it was expropriated from there for I do not think that there is much of a future for that airport.
Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
 
Joost
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RE: Montr�al: Why YUL Over YMX?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 7:32 am

Quoting AC7E7 (Reply 7):
.which never materialized thanks to the separatist threat.

Interesting you mention this. I have been on a student exchange to Sept-Iles QC for a year, living in a family that was very pro-seperation. I asked them once why Montreal had two airports and who was using the other one. In their response, they got very angry to the canadian government who was wasting their money on useless projects, etc, etc. Interesting to see the other side too  Smile
 
yul332LX
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RE: Montréal: Why YUL Over YMX?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 7:44 am

Quoting AC7E7 (Reply 9):
One day in our generation, we will be heading back to YMX

I won't be holding my breath.

Why AC7E7? Are you that old?

 Wink
E volavo, volavo felice più in alto del sole, e ancora più su mentre il mondo pian piano spariva lontano laggiù ...
 
ExPedia
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RE: Montréal: Why YUL Over YMX?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 8:04 am

Everything involving Quebec and the Federal Government is, by definition, cause for an angry response from somebody. Maybe in Sept Iles, maybe in Calgary, but fer sher it doesn't just pass quietly  Smile

It's what counts as political intrigue in our little emerging petro-sheihkdom.

Long live the tar sands!

 Wink
-- ExPedia
 
ac7e7
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RE: Montréal: Why YUL Over YMX?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 8:08 am

Quoting YUL332LX (Reply 12):
Why AC7E7? Are you that old?

Actually, not even 30, but I still won't hold my breath!  Wink
 
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PA110
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RE: Montréal: Why YUL Over YMX?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 8:19 am

I was living in Montreal in the late seventies. It was an absolute dog to get out to YMX. All domestic and transborder flights operated out of YUL. Having duel airports virtually precluded using Montreal as a transit point from other Canadian cities to/from longhaul destinations. This was also the time of Rene Levesque and the separatist government. They presided over the largest and most rapid exodus of investment in Quebec history. The Parti Quebecois was a single-issue political party that almost destroyed the province. They wasted millions on foolish schemes that were never seen to completion. YMX was only one of several projects in which the government flushed money down the toilet. As an American going to school at McGill, I was constantly amazed at the immaturity of provincial politics. It was really an unusual time in Canadian politics - hopefully to never be repeated again.
It's been swell, but the swelling has gone down.
 
ac7e7
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RE: Montréal: Why YUL Over YMX?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 8:21 am

Quoting Joost (Reply 11):
I asked them once why Montreal had two airports and who was using the other one. In their response, they got very angry to the canadian government who was wasting their money on useless projects, etc, etc. Interesting to see the other side too

Yeah, and the Quebec government had nothing to do with it....

Highways are provincial jurisdiction - Hwy 13 was supposed to be extended.

There was supposed to be a rail link.... never happened. That is both prov and Fed.

And lets not forget - how many people and companies left YUL because of the separatist threat?

The fact of the matter is, Montreal is living off its former Expo 67 glory. I don't know how much longer that will last. Population growth in Quebec is very small, if not nil. The day the airport authority switches back to YMX, humanity would have already invented the Star Trek transporter, and there will be no need for air travel anymore!
 
ac7e7
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RE: Montréal: Why YUL Over YMX?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 8:23 am

Quoting AC7E7 (Reply 16):
As an American going to school at McGill, I was constantly amazed at the immaturity of provincial politics.

Trust me... the Tradition Continues...
 
aseem
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RE: Montréal: Why YUL Over YMX?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 9:17 am

Quoting AC7E7 (Reply 17):
Trust me... the Tradition Continues...

and it spills over to YOW too.
vive le YYZ!!
VT-ASJ
ala re ala, VT-ALA ala
 
ExPedia
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RE: Montréal: Why YUL Over YMX?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 9:40 am

And we're OFF!

Now N328KF, aren't you happy you kicked this off?

We will be re-counting the ballots of the last referendum before this thread dies  Smile
-- ExPedia
 
FlewGSW
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RE: Montréal: Why YUL Over YMX?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 9:55 am

The status of YMX vs. YUL has made it into the WN Wright admendment discussions.

In a nut shell, the Fort Worth Star-Telegram newspaper had an editorial this month about how DFW will turn into YMX, and DAL which is now the size YUL was when YMX was built, will once again become the sole airport, because it is closer to the population center, businesses, etc.
 
flyyul
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RE: Montréal: Why YUL Over YMX?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 10:05 am

"The fact of the matter is, Montreal is living off its former Expo 67 glory. I don't know how much longer that will last. Population growth in Quebec is very small, if not nil. The day the airport authority switches back to YMX, humanity would have already invented the Star Trek transporter, and there will be no need for air travel anymore!"

-complete and utter bullsh*t.

Not sure if you have been awake or have even noticed, but things have changed significantly since 1995. Do we need economic indicators in this thread, so we can flush the bias from your keyboard?

the unemployment rate in Montreal is now 0.5% away from Toronto.

 Wink

[Edited 2005-08-22 03:10:30]
 
beechnut
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RE: Montréal: Why YUL Over YMX?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 10:08 am

Reasons?

1. YUL is adequate for the traffic needs of a medium-sized city like Montreal (that once was, but no longer is, the metropolis of Canada; YMX was conceived when it still was);
2. YMX is a good 50+ km from downtown Montreal and involves bridges notorious for jamming at rush hour; for poor souls on the South Shore of the city, you're looking, at peak times, travel times of up to 2 hours to fetch your flight;
3. The proper infrastructure (road, rail) that COULD have made YMX work, were never completed. Cost to complete today would be prohibitive with respect to the gains.
4. YUL on the other hand is a 20 min cab ride from downtown in light traffic, and not much more than 45 min. in rush hour.
5. YUL can be reached as easily by someone on the South Shore or North Shore of the island.
6. Two airports made YUL AND YMX become bypassed by airlines due to the monumental hassles of transferring from a domestic/transborder to overseas flight. YUL won out, for reasons above.

In summary, YUL is a far more convenient location for most Montrealers.

The list goes on but those are the *practical* reasons why. For my money, if they could dismantle YMX's terminal and truck it down to YUL to replace that dismal windowless slab that it has become, I would be happy  Smile

Even the much maligned PTVs were nowhere near as bad as people made them out to be.

Mike
 
flyyul
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RE: Montréal: Why YUL Over YMX?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 10:13 am

"As an American going to school at McGill, I was constantly amazed at the immaturity of provincial politics. It was really an unusual time in Canadian politics - hopefully to never be repeated again."

-Should we talk about the neo-con maturity of the current administration in the USA?

The ignorance continues.

Let me ask you PA110.. what do you know about Quebec history?
 
Mark_D.
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RE: Montréal: Why YUL Over YMX?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 11:50 am

See this is why this perennial thread topic is such a winner, for heated exchange. Y'got most everything that Canadians can possibly gripe about. English vs. French, waste of Federal tax dollars, waste of Provincial or even Municipal tax dollars, 'separatist' arguments vs. 'Federal' or even foreign chauvinist political visions...'would've, could've, should've' finger waving and expostion-making... a-l-l rolled up into one YMX-Nexus. It'll never go away Big grin

As for Mirabel --and Montréal-- themselves though whatever clunkiness there was through the now-halcyon decades of the eighties and even nineties, whoa Nellie there's been a change, for the city is really jumping with development now in the last ~3-5 years. It's amazing. And just a drive at almost any hour of the day along either the 15 or 117 north of Laval nowadays shows that the tentacles of urbanisation have crept a long way in the meantime. Why even St. Jerôme ---some 15 miles north of Mirabel ---is set to get Montréal commuter train service starting about this time next year.

So let's say hypothetically that Montréal right now had absolutely no major airports, and thus needed one badly. Where hypothetically would they build one? Probably around Mirabel. It's really not all that far away from the pulse of the city at the moment. And "North Shore" residents have been growling for a while now about more highway infrastructure into the city --preferably upgrading the 117 but hey even a hypothetical long-overdue completion of the 13 would be welcome too, as the six-lane 15 is not cutting it for most daytime and early evening travel.

So if and when the city does make the big move back to YMX -- I'm guessing around 2025 or so--- when it happens I'm sure that unlike the situation in ~1975-1983 , this time the necessary supporting transit infrastructure is gonna be there for everyone when the time comes.


'Meantime little YUL's doing okay. The new Int'l pier opened up a few months ago --and new Int'l greet room to be finished in the next couple months-- means that while it's still hardly a glamourous place it's at least no longer an embarrassment or even an inconvenient place to use now. Save for the Dorval circle road access but even that's being given some fast-tracking from the Provincials and Feds so hopefully the new highway (and rail) links will be up and running by no later than a few years' time.
 
HKGKaiTak
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RE: Montréal: Why YUL Over YMX?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 1:32 pm

Having lived in Canada for a little while I have a heard little about this issue ...

But, excuse my ignorance, what flights does Mirabel carry these days? I assume it is still being used rather a lot but by whom?
4 Engines 4 LongHaul
 
Jean Leloup
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RE: Montréal: Why YUL Over YMX?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 1:48 pm

It is being used by no one whatsoever as of last November, actually.

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 23):
Let me ask you PA110.. what do you know about Quebec history?

Mark; are you seriously suggesting that Quebec provincial politics are not a joke? As much as I wish it were otherwise, PA110 is right on. And unfortunately, in some (but not all) ways, this is still the case.

Jean Leloup
Next flight.... who knows.
 
wobbles
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RE: Montréal: Why YUL Over YMX?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 2:15 pm

Mirabel and Olympic Stadium, both were really great for La Belle Province, hein? (eh)
 
ac7e7
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RE: Montréal: Why YUL Over YMX?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 2:20 pm

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 21):
Not sure if you have been awake or have even noticed, but things have changed significantly since 1995. Do we need economic indicators in this thread, so we can flush the bias from your keyboard?

Yeah, I have been awake...barely. I work here, live here, and the recovery since 1995 is not that spectacular. The problem with Montrealers (and don't start with me, because I am one) is that they look inward rather then to the rest of the world. COmpare Montreal to other "world-class" cities and you will see a big difference in growth rates. Montreal has been dragging ass since the 70s, and it won't end anytime soon. YUL will remain the international gateway for Montreal and area for a long time to come. YMX will remain an occasional hollywoord set, and if Bombardier doesn't get their act together, the farmers will be able to get ALL their land back.

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 23):
Should we talk about the neo-con maturity of the current administration in the USA?



Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 23):
Let me ask you PA110.. what do you know about Quebec history?

You question PA110 on his knowledge of Quebec history, then you make such a statement about the American politics? You know, again this is a great example of the perrenial problem of Quebecers taking so much time out of their days protesting against the US admin, policy, etc... that everything we hold dear such as Medicare, OUR CITY, our country's influence in the world, etc etc have crumbled away. If all flights were to EVER switch back to Mirabel, Montreal will need the steady growth rates that Toronto has had for the past 30 years, for the next 50! It won't happen. Great, we have a Home Depot on the Highway 15....fantastic...

Quoting Mark_D. (Reply 24):
So let's say hypothetically that Montréal right now had absolutely no major airports, and thus needed one badly. Where hypothetically would they build one?

I think YMX should have been built in Ste-Eustache, just north of Laval. Dorval would be closed today. I'm not saying we would be a major int'l hub, but the new airport would be in use today, and only a short hop from Montreal.

Quoting Mark_D. (Reply 24):
So if and when the city does make the big move back to YMX -- I'm guessing around 2025 or so--- when it happens I'm sure that unlike the situation in ~1975-1983 , this time the necessary supporting transit infrastructure is gonna be there for everyone when the time comes.

The Montreal-Rigaud commuter line just recently retired its fleet of rail cars that date back to 1953 and earlier. Before expanding transit to areas where it will not be needed (Mirabel), perhaps the think tank at city hall can improve transit in the city first. And considering how long it takes our province's governments to make a decision; by the time the transit systems are in place, they will be obsolete. Need I remind you of Mirabel airport, the French and English superhospitals, the metro system, the commuter lines, Olympic Stadium, the highway system (there is no room to expand the major arteries such as highways 40, 20, and 15). If there is no room to expand the highways system, traffic problems become an all-day affair. More traffic, the economy suffers. Highway 20 on the western tip of the island until des Sources is still a TWO LANE per side highway!!!

Aeroports de Montreal has done a great job improving YUL. But I will not believe for a second that Montreal will EVER grow to the point where we will be moving flights back to the white elephant by 2025.

Quoting HKGKaiTak (Reply 25):
But, excuse my ignorance, what flights does Mirabel carry these days? I assume it is still being used rather a lot but by whom?

The flights you see on hollywood films... oh yeah, and also some Bombardier CRJ test flights - but that won't be lasting long either.

[Edited 2005-08-22 07:21:55]
 
Joost
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RE: Montréal: Why YUL Over YMX?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 2:42 pm

Quoting AC7E7 (Reply 28):
Montreal will need the steady growth rates that Toronto has had for the past 30 years, for the next 50! It won't happen.

What I wonder is the following: recently, I saw publications in the Netherlands where the Canadian government basically invited people to move to Canada and live there. However, people could live in any city they wanted except Toronto and Montreal, as those cities didn't need the extra population.

Is it because housing and infrastructure can not deal with growth? Or something else?
 
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PA110
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RE: Montréal: Why YUL Over YMX?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 3:07 pm

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 23):
Let me ask you PA110.. what do you know about Quebec history?

You forget, I was there in university at the time this was all happening. You on the other hand, were still in diapers. Nice try, junior.
It's been swell, but the swelling has gone down.
 
MattRB
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RE: Montréal: Why YUL Over YMX?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 9:19 pm

YMX - The white elephant that should rightfully bear the name Pierre Elliot Trudeau International.
Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible.
 
flyyul
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RE: Montréal: Why YUL Over YMX?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 9:24 pm

"You forget, I was there in university at the time this was all happening. You on the other hand, were still in diapers. Nice try, junior."

-Real mature

What do you know about the Quiet Revolution. If you can answer, then you have SOME merit to your opinion.
 
flyyul
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RE: Montréal: Why YUL Over YMX?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 9:31 pm

"Yeah, I have been awake...barely. I work here, live here, and the recovery since 1995 is not that spectacular. The problem with Montrealers (and don't start with me, because I am one) is that they look inward rather then to the rest of the world. COmpare Montreal to other "world-class" cities and you will see a big difference in growth rates. Montreal has been dragging ass since the 70s, and it won't end anytime soon. YUL will remain the international gateway for Montreal and area for a long time to come. YMX will remain an occasional hollywoord set, and if Bombardier doesn't get their act together, the farmers will be able to get ALL their land back."

-Thats your opinion.

There are significant statistics that prove otherwise. It is rather unfortunate that you have a negative and otherwise false perception of the way things are done here. I gather you might have a difference with the political system.

" you seriously suggesting that Quebec provincial politics are not a joke? As much as I wish it were otherwise, PA110 is right on. And unfortunately, in some (but not all) ways, this is still the case"

-Why is it a joke? It's a fiscally responsible govt, unlike Ontario's.
 
LH423
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RE: Montréal: Why YUL Over YMX?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 10:41 pm

Quoting Joost (Reply 29):
However, people could live in any city they wanted except Toronto and Montreal, as those cities didn't need the extra population.

Most countries do that. If you go to Immigration Québec they waste no time in extolling the life in Mauricie, Montérégie, and Lac St-Jean. I know the Canadian government was trying (and probably still is) to lure Eastern European farmers to the prairie provinces to combat the loss of farmers to the cities. The US has done the same thing. The fact is, in most countries, the cities are the economic powerhouses already and don't really need the extra jobs. Of course, as anywhere, economic expansion is needed but not as much as in rural areas where life is more dependant on the not-so-luxurious life in agriculture.

As for the other debate, I'll steer clear while I still have my head  Wink

LH423
« On ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux » Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
 
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PA110
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RE: Montréal: Why YUL Over YMX?

Tue Aug 23, 2005 12:49 am

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 32):
What do you know about the Quiet Revolution. If you can answer, then you have SOME merit to your opinion.

Even though I'm American, I did take some Canadian studies courses at McGill. If I remember correctly, the term Quiet Revolution refers to the period of the early 60's under Jean Lesage, when following the very conservative DuPlessis years, the province of Quebec moved forward socially and economically at a more rapid pace than even the rest of Canada. Quebec became the symbol of French Canadian aspirations, and the nationalism that resulted eventually grew into the separatist movement embodied later by the Parti Quebecois. How am I doing so far, junior?
It's been swell, but the swelling has gone down.
 
flyyul
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RE: Montréal: Why YUL Over YMX?

Tue Aug 23, 2005 1:09 am

You've begun to scratch the surface.

Dig deeper  Smile
 
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PA110
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RE: Montréal: Why YUL Over YMX?

Tue Aug 23, 2005 1:42 am

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 36):
You've begun to scratch the surface.

Dig deeper

What's your point? And what ultimately does this have to do with YMX being a colossal failure?
It's been swell, but the swelling has gone down.
 
Qb001
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RE: Montréal: Why YUL Over YMX?

Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:34 am

This thread, and some of the astonishingly stupid comments it contains (such as those of AC7E7 and PA110), remind me why I pretty much gave up on a.net as a discussion forum.

Jean, I'm disappointed also by the quality of your post. You can do way much better than that.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
 
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PA110
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RE: Montréal: Why YUL Over YMX?

Tue Aug 23, 2005 3:03 am

QB001, I've just read some of your previous posts on the subject, and you are sadly embittered that AC chose (wisely) not to have multiple hubs in eastern Canada.

AC's hub in Toronto was already well established, and capable of handling most transit traffic to Canadian cities without direct Europe links. Why on earth would they want to build a second hub? You dismiss provincial politics far too lightly. Remember, the province was in economic decline at that time, because of the separationist movement lead by that idiot Levesque.

You're stuck on blaming AC, however why didn't either QB or ND make any attempts to move some flight operations over to YMX to develop transit business from foreign carriers serving Montreal? Surely all those arriving in on AF, BA, AZ, SR, LH, etc... couldn't all be just O&D passengers? or could they?  Wink
It's been swell, but the swelling has gone down.
 
ac7e7
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RE: Montréal: Why YUL Over YMX?

Tue Aug 23, 2005 5:41 am

Quoting QB001 (Reply 38):
This thread, and some of the astonishingly stupid comments it contains (such as those of AC7E7 and PA110), remind me why I pretty much gave up on a.net as a discussion forum.

I may disagree with FLYYUL on this issue, but I do not consider his opinions to be stupid, despite his overly defensive responses. Everybody has a right to an opinion without being insulted. If you are going to outright insult people maybe you should leave a.net once and for all. Everybody has a right to an opinion.

My argument here is that Montreal will never grow in my lifetime (and I hope that is a long time to come) to to the point where we will need to switch flights to YMX again. I have stated my beliefs as to why this is so. As a person who has lived here my entire life and seen first hand the stupitidy of its politics and its detrimental effects on this province economically and socially, I just don't see why YMX would be needed again. ADM has done a fabulous job renovating YUL, and I'm sure it will be sufficient for many years to come.

If Montreal and Quebec has a whole is to grow like it did in decades past, its citizens (I am one of them) have to stop being so sore about Toronto's success. I think that is great for them. Montreal will never be the economic centre of Canada again, but if Montrealers can get past their snubbing of Toronto and bury this separatist threat once and for all, it will finally be a stable, thriving city once again.
 
Skywatcher
Posts: 449
Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2002 11:19 am

RE: Montréal: Why YUL Over YMX?

Tue Aug 23, 2005 10:22 am

YMX is still used for 24/7 all cargo flights. There's about a dozen jet freighters per day using the facility along with a few Skyvans.

YMX was designed for a Concorde world that never panned out.

As much as I regret alot of things that happened with YMX, Quebec/Canada etc., I realize that we live in an imperfect world and I try not to fling self serving, simplistic comments at people when i give them my opinion on these or other topics.

Just for the sake of comparison, how many vast, costly military airports sit abandoned all over the U.S. as we speak? Why are they not treated with the same contempt as poor beleagured YMX?
 
ac7e7
Posts: 656
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 7:27 am

RE: Montréal: Why YUL Over YMX?

Tue Aug 23, 2005 11:20 am

Quoting Skywatcher (Reply 41):
Just for the sake of comparison, how many vast, costly military airports sit abandoned all over the U.S. as we speak? Why are they not treated with the same contempt as poor beleagured YMX?

Because they were used for many years. And since the fall of the Berlin Wall, there is no need for as many air force bases. The military adjusts itself according to threats.

There was a mass exodus from Quebec to more prosperous regions of Canada. There is no need to transfer flights to Mirabel, as Dorval can handle the load for many years to come.
 
ExPedia
Posts: 49
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2005 10:37 am

RE: Montréal: Why YUL Over YMX?

Thu Aug 25, 2005 11:12 am

So how long before the "YUL is faaaaaaaaar too busy/noisy - something must be done" drumbeat gets fired up? Any bets?

That will be sweet, eh? We'll get to re-hash the exact same issue all over again! Woo hoo!

 Wink
-- ExPedia
 
ac7e7
Posts: 656
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 7:27 am

RE: Montréal: Why YUL Over YMX?

Thu Aug 25, 2005 11:18 am

Quoting ExPedia (Reply 43):
So how long before the "YUL is faaaaaaaaar too busy/noisy - something must be done" drumbeat gets fired up? Any bets?

Its already happening and has been for many years. There is a group in the Montreal area that complains about their houses being in the flight path. They get up early to and make sure the planes are not landing before 7AM or something. These people really ned to get a hobby. When they bought their homes, they knew the airport was close by. It was there alot longer then they or their houses were there.
 
Jean Leloup
Posts: 1953
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2001 10:46 am

RE: Montréal: Why YUL Over YMX?

Thu Aug 25, 2005 11:32 am

ExPedia, I really don't think that will happen. I'm not aware of much complaining going on about noise at YUL. My family lives only about three blocks from the airport, and I really don't think anyone in the area complains too much. MAny of them are probably aware that the planes have only gotten quieter over teh years, after all. I can tell that there are almost no more DC-9's, because it's harder to hear planes from my mother's dining room!)There is concern about (auto) traffic congestion, but it appears that that might be resolved soon, if the replacement of the Dorval Circle goes through.

I think now that YMX has been abandoned (for at least the medium-term) people will get used to YUL being what it needs to be. And I think they're doing a better and better job with the place.
Next flight.... who knows.
 
Jean Leloup
Posts: 1953
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2001 10:46 am

RE: Montréal: Why YUL Over YMX?

Thu Aug 25, 2005 11:47 am

Quoting AC7E7 (Reply 44):
Its already happening and has been for many years. There is a group in the Montreal area that complains about their houses being in the flight path. They get up early to and make sure the planes are not landing before 7AM or something. These people really ned to get a hobby. When they bought their homes, they knew the airport was close by. It was there alot longer then they or their houses were there.

Very interesting. As I just mentioned, my family has lived within a couple blocks of the airport for years, and I have never met someone who had a problem with it. However, concern that the curfew be met is a bit of a different matter. My mother, for instance, whlie normally having no problem with the noise, will express some annoyance if a plane lands at 2 a.m. or something. Having grown accustomed to sleeping without the distraction, a curfew violation can indeed be pretty annoying. In that case, though, I think it's different than a general hostility towards the airport and its location - nothing wrong with holding the ADM to its own rules.

Jean Leloup
Next flight.... who knows.
 
ac7e7
Posts: 656
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 7:27 am

RE: Montréal: Why YUL Over YMX?

Thu Aug 25, 2005 12:33 pm

Quoting Jean Leloup (Reply 46):
nothing wrong with holding the ADM to its own rules.

I don't think its an ADM rule, but perhaps a city rule?
 
Jean Leloup
Posts: 1953
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2001 10:46 am

RE: Montréal: Why YUL Over YMX?

Thu Aug 25, 2005 12:46 pm

Quoting AC7E7 (Reply 47):
I don't think its an ADM rule, but perhaps a city rule?

Sorry; I'm sure your right. It must be a city rule. In any case, one that they should follow. The curfew is between midnight and 6 a.m., I believe, which is not unreasonable in my opinion.
Next flight.... who knows.
 
ExPedia
Posts: 49
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2005 10:37 am

RE: Montréal: Why YUL Over YMX?

Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:18 pm

Curfews are pretty commonplace - YYZ has them too, with no flight ops between 1am and 6am. Landing after 1 - say if a machine is late inbound - will cost the carrier a fine of several thousand dollars, I believe.

This of course is a big part of why YHM pulls in such courier and freight volumes - they offer 24 hour ops.
-- ExPedia