AlitaliaMD11
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Newburgh (SWF) To New York (JFK)

Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:48 pm

I was checking SWFs website and noticed that in 1990 American Eagle flew between SWF and JFK and in 1992 TWA Express flew the route in 1992.

Does anyone know how the loads on the flights where?

I am sure that the flight was demolished because of Metro North. (train service)

So I doubt that there would be a market for lets say Jet Blue from JFK-SWF.


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leisurejet
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RE: Newburgh (SWF) To New York (JFK)

Tue Aug 23, 2005 5:42 pm

I also noted these flights from Stewart International (SWF) to New York City(JFK), but am afraid I don't know how the loads were back then.

I would think that if jetBlue were considering flying anywhere from Stewart International (SWF), then they would probably consider one of their bases such as Boston (BOS), Washington (IAD) or Fort Lauderdale (FLL) in the east or Oakland (OAK) and Long Beach (LGB) in the west.

It does though seem that today Allegiant Air, will announce service from SWF to Orlando-Sanford (SFB) so things are looking up on the schedule flight side for the airport.

http://www.poughkeepsiejournal.com/a...3/BUSINESS/508230317/1003/BUSINESS
 
BigOrange
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RE: Newburgh (SWF) To New York (JFK)

Tue Aug 23, 2005 10:48 pm

ALLEGIANT AIR ANNOUNCES NEW NONSTOP AIR SERVICE FROM STEWART INTERNATIONAL FOR JUST $39*

From their website http://www.allegiantair.com/pr/082305.htm
 
Traindriver
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RE: Newburgh (SWF) To New York (JFK)

Wed Aug 24, 2005 9:11 am

For AlitaliaMD11,
I'm guessing the loads probably weren't there. I don't feel
that Metro North had much to do with it. As it is, just to
get to the nearest train station, it's about a 30 min. bus
ride to Beacon, then another hour plus to G.C.T.
After that it's probably an hour or more depending on
traffic on the overly congested NYC highways to JFK
via the bus on 42nd St. Mass transit from the Hudson Valley
region to JFK doesn't cut it. If I remember correctly, the
TW service was short lived.
Now it's probably easier to drive to ALB or HPN as WN
serves both locations than it is to tavel to LGA or JFK.
If the service was profitable, AA would still be serving JFK
instead of just flying ERJ's to ORD.
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: Newburgh (SWF) To New York (JFK)

Wed Aug 24, 2005 9:52 am

U have to remember, flying was a lot different back then. Regionals did not exist, instead commuter airlines fed major airline hubs. It was very easy to fly from SWF to JFK or even ALB to JFK on Beech 1900s, J31s, or even Saabs. It is not that easy to fly these routes with regional jets.

If you look at Eagle's NE operation, or even Express Jet, you see all jets. Routes like this (that carried 10 or 20 people) just aren't doable in an RJ. I believe Express Jet flew HPN to EWR for a few months prior to 9/11. Of they announced it. Either way, it just is not efficient of cost effective in the new aviation environment.

PJ
 
hz747300
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RE: Newburgh (SWF) To New York (JFK)

Wed Aug 24, 2005 9:52 am

After the AA587 crash at JFK and while JFK was closed jetBlue was landing planes at SWF and busing passengers to the city. Pretty clever I thought.
Keep on truckin'...
 
AlitaliaMD11
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RE: Newburgh (SWF) To New York (JFK)

Wed Aug 24, 2005 10:02 am

Quoting HZ747300 (Reply 5):
After the AA587 crash at JFK and while JFK was closed jetBlue was landing planes at SWF and busing passengers to the city. Pretty clever I thought.

Sadly when that happend I still lived in Nyack, New York about 35 minutes from the city. I would have headed out to see those Jet Blue planes landing!

When I was in Spain a Jet Blue A320 got diverted to SWF as well during a thunderstorm apparently along with a Continental B777 and two US Airways Express ERJs.


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I was reading the other day that Metro North is looking into bringing the train to Stewart.
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Traindriver
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RE: Newburgh (SWF) To New York (JFK)

Wed Aug 24, 2005 11:49 am

AlitaliaMD11,
The only way Metro North could get to SWF would be via the
Port Jervis line. I know that line runs along the NY Thruway
for part of the route and continues south to I think Hoboken NJ.
I don't think they run into Penn Station so it doesn't provide a
link into NYC. It might link up somewhere with the NJ Transit
line that connects with the Newark Airport service. However
it would probably be cost prohibitive to construct that link to
SWF, I can't see NY state coming up with the cash.
 
jetblueatjfk
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RE: Newburgh (SWF) To New York (JFK)

Wed Aug 24, 2005 12:01 pm

Well Metro North Goes into GCT in the city and LIRR goes into Penn so SWF-JFK on a train would be annoying, if they did build a SWF train station, then it would be Metro N to GCT, then subway to Penn, then LIRR to Jamaica, then AirTrain to JFK. That is 4 different train systems and you might have to change trains for Metro North. I am sure if there was a flight from SWF-JFK it wouldn't sell though (Nowadays). But with LIRR planning (Maybe, plans might go away with MTA's financial troubles), but if the plans go through, than the LIRR will have service from Jamaica to GCT which will then cut out the subway and if Metro North gets a SWF station, then that make it a little faster. Also maybe some more flights to SWF with a train station, so a better connection to the city, so it can serve as a viable north NYC airport with NYC connections.

 airplane jetBlueAtJFK airplane 
 
gman3
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RE: Newburgh (SWF) To New York (JFK)

Wed Aug 24, 2005 12:19 pm

Quoting Traindriver (Reply 3):
Now it's probably easier to drive to ALB or HPN as WN
serves both locations than it is to tavel to LGA or JFK

WN does not serve HPN  Smile
 
dartland
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RE: Newburgh (SWF) To New York (JFK)

Wed Aug 24, 2005 12:34 pm

HPN is pretty much the antithesis of everythng WN and vice versa.

Likely the only time you would ever see a WN plane land at HPN other than a diversion is if some WN executive had tee time at Westchester CC or Winged Foot...
 
Traindriver
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RE: Newburgh (SWF) To New York (JFK)

Wed Aug 24, 2005 12:53 pm

To Gman3
oops!
For jetBlueAtJFK
The Metro North that goes into GCT runs down the east side of the Hudson.
I don't see them running that line into SWF as they would have to build a
bridge across the Hudson. With the tracks at river level, I don't see how
they could connect to the I-84 bridge that goes to Newburgh. The Port
Jervis line which goes through Middletown would probably be the rail line
that they would link up with.
Didn't they tout SWF as the NYC's area 4th airport when they started
commercial service out of there? I know they rebuilt the terminal about
6 or 7 years ago, but it's like a ghost town most of the time.
 
JFKviaPHX
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RE: Newburgh (SWF) To New York (JFK)

Wed Aug 24, 2005 1:48 pm

SWF to JFK would work with B6. The drive to JFK from the area is horrible unless you do it in the middle of the night. I use to live 10 mins from SWF and commute to JFK everyday. I know many people in the area that prefer SWF over everywhere else because of the ease of use. The biggest drawback to SWF are the high fares. B6 would help lower all fares out of there and make it a viable airport. I paid over $500 for a round trip from SWF to BUF in '94.
 
AlitaliaMD11
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RE: Newburgh (SWF) To New York (JFK)

Wed Aug 24, 2005 2:24 pm

JFKviaPHX,

I know how you feel. I live in Poughkeepsie and fly out of JFK frequently. My parents are always bothered by the 2 hour drive and they sometimes take the techonic which they hate.

Jet Blue would have to maintain some very low fares on the route though to keep the loads up. Maybe $39. MTA is about $22I think per adult.

I know my dad would probably like the route, he has to teach in the city on Mondays and Wednesdays.

The 190s would be really good for the route.

I hope that Jet Blue looks into SWF more closely. I was looking at their original plans the other day and Newburgh was not menchioned but things have changed.

jetBlue's proposed network (from JFK):

Portland, Maine
Burlington, Vermont
Rochester, New York
Buffalo, New York
Syracuse, New York
Boston, Masachusettes
Washington D.C.
Richmond, Virginia
Norfolk, Virginia
Raleigh/Durham, North Carolina
Greensboro, North Carolina
Charlotte, North Carolina
Greenville/Spartanburg, South Carolina
Columbia, South Carolina
Charleston, South Carolina
Atlanta, Georgia,
Savannah, Georgia
Jacksonville, Florida
Orlando, Florida
Tampa, Florida
Ft. Myers, Florida
W. Palm Beach, Florida
Ft. Lauderdale, Florida
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
Charleston, West Virginia
Cleveland, Ohio
Columbus, Ohio
Dayton, Ohio
Cincinnati, Ohio
Canton/Akron, Ohio
Indianapolis, Indiana
Louisville, Kentucky
Chicago, Illinois
Flint, Michigan
Milwaukee, Wisconsin
Grand Rapids, Michigan
Nashville, Tennessee
Memphis, Tennessee
New Orleans, Louisiana
Houston, Texas
Dallas Ft. Work, Texas
Denver, Colorado
Salt Lake City, Utah
Minneapolis, Minnesota


Its strange that California was never in jet Blue's orginal network plan.


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JFKviaPHX
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RE: Newburgh (SWF) To New York (JFK)

Wed Aug 24, 2005 10:53 pm

I lived in New Windsor. I would leave for work at 3:45 am and make it to JFK by 5am. Coming home at 1:30pm I would get in by 3pm. If I was to try this trip any later then 5:30 am it would take me at least 2 hours plus with all the traffic. Think about SWF. You have cheap and easy parking. Most times I would park right across from the terminal. Short trip to the airport for the people of the region. Direct access to JFK and it vast network of flights. NO TRAFFIC!

Metro North to the NYC is easy, but good luck finding parking at Beacon or any other station. SWF to JFK would be a 15-20 minute gate to gate flight and will hit connection right away 3 flights a day one at 7am (with an RON) one at 1pm and one at 6pm.
 
ssides
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RE: Newburgh (SWF) To New York (JFK)

Wed Aug 24, 2005 11:32 pm

I don't know if it would work ... historically, airlines have had a relatively difficult time making these ultra-short hops work, and when they do, they are almost exclusively for connecting passengers.

For example, CoEx used to fly EFD-IAH (and I believe HOU-IAH) on EMB-120s, which allowed passengers in southern Houston and Galveston to connect to CO flights at IAH better; this helped them compete with WN's operations at HOU. These flights have been discontinued, however, because they were not efficient to operate on RJs.

Also, United Express once operated BWI-IAD for passengers in Maryland to connect to UA flights; I believe this has been discontinued as well.

I think United Express still operates some of these types of flights in the Los Angeles area (maybe LAX-ONT?), but I'm not sure.

I doubt B6 would ever launch SWF-JFK. Like these other routes, it's probably an inefficient route for a jet aircraft. As a shuttle operation, security delays and costs would discourage commuters from flying it. I may be wrong, but I just don't see it happening.
"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
 
AlitaliaMD11
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RE: Newburgh (SWF) To New York (JFK)

Thu Aug 25, 2005 12:29 am

Quoting Ssides (Reply 15):
I don't know if it would work ... historically, airlines have had a relatively difficult time making these ultra-short hops work, and when they do, they are almost exclusively for connecting passengers.

They tend to be very successful in Europe.
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ssides
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RE: Newburgh (SWF) To New York (JFK)

Thu Aug 25, 2005 12:43 am

Quoting AlitaliaMD11 (Reply 16):
They tend to be very successful in Europe.

Where most of the routes are likely subsidized, people are less time-sensitive, and less price-sensitive.
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AlitaliaMD11
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RE: Newburgh (SWF) To New York (JFK)

Thu Aug 25, 2005 2:01 am

I talked to my dad about the route (he's a regular commuter between Poughkeepsie and the city) and he says the route could probably profit for commuters if the flight landed in LGA instead of JFK since it is closer to the city.
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COEWR787
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RE: Newburgh (SWF) To New York (JFK)

Thu Aug 25, 2005 12:05 pm

Quoting JetBlueAtJFK (Reply 8):
Well Metro North Goes into GCT in the city and LIRR goes into Penn so SWF-JFK on a train would be annoying, if they did build a SWF train station, then it would be Metro N to GCT,

The proposed SWF connection is from the Port Jervis Line, which runs into Hoboken through Secaucus Jct. One could change at Secaucus for Penn station and then from there to JFK either via LIRR + Airtrain via Jamaica or by the A train + Airttrain via Howard Beach/JFK Airport. If the Access to Region's Core plan is ever built then there will be direct trains from Port Jervis into Penn Station.
 
aa757first
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RE: Newburgh (SWF) To New York (JFK)

Thu Aug 25, 2005 12:18 pm

Ok, on a bad day, how long does it take to drive into the city? An hour and a half? Now tell me, is it going to be worth showing up at the airport about an hour in advance, the twenty minutes it takes to fly to the city, and get out of JFK and into the city, say thirty minutes at best. That is one hour and fifty minutes. Plus, what happens when the flight is late? It would not work.

AAndrew
 
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STT757
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RE: Newburgh (SWF) To New York (JFK)

Thu Aug 25, 2005 12:33 pm

There have been proposals to use either the Port Jervis line or the West Shore line (currently an active freight line) to link with SWF, the plan to build a rail connection to the Metro North Hudson line via a new Tappan Zee bridge is gone.

NY has turned their support to NJ's ARC (Access to the Regions Core) tunnel project as a way to directly link West of the Hudson NY Counties with Manhattan.

Right now there are two active passenger rail lines West of the Hudson operated by NJ Transit, there's a proposal to reactivate passenger service on a third line known as the West Shore line. As it's currently planned it would run from West Havestraw to Hoboken, however the line is active with freight all the way to Albany so they could easily extend passenger service to New Burgh, and Kingston which would make my Aunt and Uncle in Woodstock happy as they drive to Rhinecliff to catch Amtrak to Manhattan.

Access to the Region's Core (ARC)

http://www.accesstotheregionscore.com/

West Shore Line

http://www.njtransit.com/images/an_cp_proposed_west_shore_map.jpg
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STT757
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RE: Newburgh (SWF) To New York (JFK)

Thu Aug 25, 2005 12:34 pm

Flights to JFK on B6 would not work because there's no local traffic, it would be people connecting to flights to FLorida. If there were a demand for flights to Florida from SWF than B6 could use their ERJ-190s to serve those routes.

[Edited 2005-08-25 05:49:48]
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AlitaliaMD11
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RE: Newburgh (SWF) To New York (JFK)

Thu Aug 25, 2005 12:58 pm

Quoting Aa757first (Reply 20):
Ok, on a bad day, how long does it take to drive into the city? An hour and a half?

About two hours and a half.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 22):
Flights to JFK on B6 would not work because there's no local traffic, it would be people connecting to flights to FLorida.

The route would also be used by people travelling to Europe, I know a lot of people who go to Europe from Dutchess County and have to drive about two hours to JFK.
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STT757
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RE: Newburgh (SWF) To New York (JFK)

Thu Aug 25, 2005 1:25 pm

Quoting AlitaliaMD11 (Reply 23):
The route would also be used by people travelling to Europe, I know a lot of people who go to Europe from Dutchess County and have to drive about two hours to JFK.

Your better off driving or taking car service than connecting between two different airlines that do not have interline agreements.
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AlitaliaMD11
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RE: Newburgh (SWF) To New York (JFK)

Thu Aug 25, 2005 1:49 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 24):

Your better off driving or taking car service than connecting between two different airlines that do not have interline agreements.

True.

Sorry that this thread turned into wether or not SWF to JFK would be a good route for B6.

I was just simply wondering how the loads on the American Eagle and TWA Express flights where.
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cha747
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RE: Newburgh (SWF) To New York (JFK)

Thu Aug 25, 2005 1:55 pm

Wasn't CO's short-lived service from HPN to EWR discontinued because at peak times, the plane had to back-track it to Albany or high-tail it to central Jersey just so they could get into the approach pattern for EWR? Or was that just a figment of my imagination? Can you imagine a flight from SWF flying into central Jersey then out over the Atlantic so that it can high-tail it into Jamaica Bay for the Canarsie approach? Or imagine a 2 hour ground stop for a 20 minute flight. This is merely a pipe dream, like WN at HPN  Wink
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