airish
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India And Singapore Agree To Allow More Flights

Wed Aug 24, 2005 11:21 pm

India and Singapore agree to allow more flights

http://www.dgca.nic.in/bilateral/singa0805.pdf
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himmat01
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RE: India And Singapore Agree To Allow More Flights

Wed Aug 24, 2005 11:31 pm

Really quick on part of DGCA to put it up on its website almost immediately.

I guess SQ can start daily flights to BLR now. That's great news for the IT guys proceeding to the US. I was hoping for more frequencies from MAA.

Himmat
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blrsea
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RE: India And Singapore Agree To Allow More Flights

Thu Aug 25, 2005 2:33 am

Great news!! Am glad to hear that SQ is starting daily services to BLR. However, NW/BA/AF too are starting daily flights to blr, and these flights have less layover time, plus BA & NW have daily flights from SEA to europe. Quite happy now  Smile

BTW, how many seats does 1 B747 unit translate to? The agreement speaks in terms of B747 units.

Are there any SQ flights making use of 5th freedom rights through India?
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: India And Singapore Agree To Allow More Flights

Thu Aug 25, 2005 2:37 am

Quoting Himmat01 (Reply 1):
Really quick on part of DGCA to put it up on its website almost immediately.

Their update is very good.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
aseem
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RE: India And Singapore Agree To Allow More Flights

Thu Aug 25, 2005 2:37 am

funny that Nimmish hasn't responded to this thread, or is he still jumping with joy?
Boys!! keep digging at Devanahalli, planes are coming your way.
cheers!!
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blrBird
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RE: India And Singapore Agree To Allow More Flights

Thu Aug 25, 2005 10:21 am

Quoting Blrsea (Reply 2):
how many seats does 1 B747 unit translate to

= 400 seats.

(existing + additional) = (Total)
BLR
2.25 + 3.7 = 5.95 (2380 seats)
SQ uses B772 (288 seats) (3x weekly)on this route, they can go daily(772) or 6x (747) to BLR or Is 3K going to get any slot?

HYD
1.8 + 1.6 = 3.4 (1360 seats)
MI uses AB320 (146 seats) 4x weekly, they can go daily with MI or switch to SQ B772 with 4x weekly

CCU
4.25 + 1.6 = 5.85 (2340 seats)
SQ uses B772 4x weekly and 3K uses AB320 (180 seats) 3x weekly, they could go daily now I guess.

Quoting Aseem (Reply 4):
Boys!! keep digging at Devanahalli

They are digging, but HAL is planning to expand the current airport to handle what the new airport(4.5 million capacity) wont be able to handle in 2008 (projected pax 7.5 to 8 million). We'll have to wait and see how this battle will turn out  Confused
from star dust....
 
Nimish
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RE: India And Singapore Agree To Allow More Flights

Thu Aug 25, 2005 3:27 pm

Quoting Blrsea (Reply 2):
Am glad to hear that SQ is starting daily services to BLR

While I'm hoping they do make it a daily, I haven't seen an explicit announcement to that effect from SQ. I wonder if some other Singapore based airline (LCC maybe?) will grab the additional weekly seats!

Quoting Aseem (Reply 4):
unny that Nimmish hasn't responded to this thread, or is he still jumping with joy?

Unfortunately I was buried with work last night so did not browse a.net until this morning. Hence the delay in replying! I'll start jumping with joy the moment I hear that some airline is using those frequencies! Besides, I'll really start jumping when I can get seats to Europe/US at the last minute at a low fare  Smile Hopefully that day is not too far away!
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mrniji
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RE: India And Singapore Agree To Allow More Flights

Thu Aug 25, 2005 3:53 pm

Can't they offer some special additional flights for Texdravid to MAA?  bigthumbsup 
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
spink
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RE: India And Singapore Agree To Allow More Flights

Thu Aug 25, 2005 4:40 pm

Quoting BlrBird (Reply 5):
(existing + additional) = (Total)
BLR
2.25 + 3.7 = 5.95 (2380 seats)
SQ uses B772 (288 seats) (3x weekly)on this route, they can go daily(772) or 6x (747) to BLR or Is 3K going to get any slot?

Just as a data point, the saturday flight 3 weeks ago, august 6th, was a 773 and not a 772. And as usual, it was full.
 
Nimish
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RE: India And Singapore Agree To Allow More Flights

Thu Aug 25, 2005 4:48 pm

Quoting Spink (Reply 8):
the saturday flight 3 weeks ago, august 6th, was a 773

And Monday nights used to be 744s - also full.
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Ejazz
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RE: India And Singapore Agree To Allow More Flights

Thu Aug 25, 2005 5:47 pm

Since SIA is already suspending some flights due to a shortage of pilots, poor loads and high oil prices I wonder how they will be able to mount these flights. I guess no leave for the year yet again.
Etihad Girl, You're a great way to fly.
 
snehnath
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RE: India And Singapore Agree To Allow More Flights

Thu Aug 25, 2005 11:29 pm

If you read the agreement carefully, there seems to be some disagreement on the reciprocal rights India will receive for allowing SQ to fly to the non-metros. Basically SQ seems to be saying that the previous agreement pretty much agreed that they could fly to those airports, and designated Indian airlines would get nothing in return. The Indian side seems to be trying to get out of a really bad deal it made the last time.
 
cloud4000
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RE: India And Singapore Agree To Allow More Flights

Fri Aug 26, 2005 12:29 am

Quoting Snehnath (Reply 11):
If you read the agreement carefully, there seems to be some disagreement on the reciprocal rights India will receive for allowing SQ to fly to the non-metros. Basically SQ seems to be saying that the previous agreement pretty much agreed that they could fly to those airports, and designated Indian airlines would get nothing in return. The Indian side seems to be trying to get out of a really bad deal it made the last time.

India and Singapore should just sign an "Open Skies" agreement. Of course, this would make too much sense for the Indian government since AI and IC would be eaten alive by Singapore Airlines, a much superior carrier.
Boston, USA
 
TKMCE
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RE: India And Singapore Agree To Allow More Flights

Fri Aug 26, 2005 1:15 am

Quoting Cloud4000 (Reply 12):
ndia and Singapore should just sign an "Open Skies" agreement. Of course, this would make too much sense for the Indian government since AI and IC would be eaten alive by Singapore Airlines, a much superior carrier.

Not exactly- SQ doesnt get into price discountimg too much and targets the sixth freedom traffic (which they get plenty) because of their connections. Ath te same time there is also a price sensivtive market, esp from Chennai which is basically Labour traffic to SIN and KUL. Thid is being absorbed by both AI and IC (as well as MH who feeds some traffic to SIN).

ASEAN open skies was ill thought out as was SAARC open skies where Emirates gota back door entry to lucrative markets like CCJ thanks to Srilankan. SQ has already made full use of ht operating services from places like ATQ and AMD hitting AI as well.

SQ is now basically targetting TRZ and CJB where MI (no SQ) will cream off the labour/ethnic traffic. After that happens ( may be even now since they have got some additional capacity) they will upgrade HYD to 4 SQ flights from the current MI. THe current A320 flights are causing problems for them because of lack of belly hold capacity- (80% of the pax in that route are lugging around their 2 PC 64 KG oversize bags to the US).
 
blrBird
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RE: India And Singapore Agree To Allow More Flights

Fri Aug 26, 2005 1:40 am

Quoting TKMCE (Reply 13):
ASEAN open skies was ill thought out as was SAARC open skies

Yes, India does come up with some wired laws/policies!! To mention, no Indian carrier can fly international unless the company is 5 yrs old with a minimum (?) aircraft capacity. But they will allow a foreign carrier with out any of these restrictions ex JetStarAsia (3K).

It makes you wonder who is driving these policies!
from star dust....
 
stealthpilot
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RE: India And Singapore Agree To Allow More Flights

Fri Aug 26, 2005 4:58 am

Long overdue. It was good to read the article that was recently published in the TOI which showed that ppl from BLR buy more international tickets than MAA or CCU. In fact after BOM and DEL, BLR sells the most tickets. BLR can easily handle doubling its international frequencies, but maybe not overnight.
And in the meantime i am sitting in BOM, having to fly AI because i cant fly out of BLR  Sad Damn nice new terminal tho  Smile
Nikhil
eP007
 
sshank
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RE: India And Singapore Agree To Allow More Flights

Fri Aug 26, 2005 6:50 am

Long overdue. It was good to read the article that was recently published in the TOI which showed that ppl from BLR buy more international tickets than MAA or CCU. In fact after BOM and DEL, BLR sells the most tickets. BLR can easily handle doubling its international frequencies, but maybe not overnight.
And in the meantime i am sitting in BOM, having to fly AI because i cant fly out of BLR Damn nice new terminal tho


Is this some kind of a joke? I suspect that this another of Girish Rao's article claiming that BLR is some kind of an aviation hotspot. MAA does 3X the volume BLR does - and most amusingly BLR is behind places like TRV, COK and HYD. There might be more demand now due to the tech traffic - but that's a small portion of the overall international traffic. MAA has 28 weekly services just to Singapore - and I would guess that is comparable to all international services BLR sees in a week.
 
airbusfanyyz
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RE: India And Singapore Agree To Allow More Flights

Fri Aug 26, 2005 7:07 am

Any chance this will lead to an upgrade to mainline equipment on SIN-HYD from the MI 320s to SQ 772s?

Cheers,
Kaz
 
Nimish
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RE: India And Singapore Agree To Allow More Flights

Fri Aug 26, 2005 3:27 pm

Quoting Sshank (Reply 16):
MAA does 3X the volume BLR does - and most amusingly BLR is behind places like TRV, COK and HYD

Are these statistics published anywhere? Would make for an interesting read.
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TKMCE
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RE: India And Singapore Agree To Allow More Flights

Fri Aug 26, 2005 4:46 pm

Quoting Airish (Thread starter):
Are these statistics published anywhere? Would make for an interesting read.

Yes they are. AAI website has the details in "Traffic NEws" updated monthly. Their Mar 2005 issue has the whole year (Apr 04 to Mar 05) figures as well as comparison with the previous year.

Quoting Sshank (Reply 16):
Is this some kind of a joke? I suspect that this another of Girish Rao's article claiming that BLR is some kind of an aviation hotspot. MAA does 3X the volume BLR does - and most amusingly BLR is behind places like TRV, COK and HYD.

Not exactly - The traffic figures can be misleading. BLR was severely capacity constrained by bilaterals (only now have things opened up). Asa result till now a lot of pax were travelling ex BOM or ex MAA and so tyhe traffic figures would not paint a true picture. More realistic would be the MIDT data but then that comes at a price!
 
Nimish
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RE: India And Singapore Agree To Allow More Flight

Fri Aug 26, 2005 5:33 pm

Quoting TKMCE (Reply 19):
Asa result till now a lot of pax were travelling ex BOM or ex MAA

Tell me about it  sarcastic . The number of times I've had to go to BOM or MAA to catch an international flight is not funny. And I have to do it again next month - go to BOM to catch BD to LHR. Then again in OCT - go to MAA to catch LH to LHR. In the statistics, I'm sure I will appear as a regular ex-BOM/MAA pax, not a ex-BLR pax. And I know that there are many others in my shoes.

I'd also like to compare the kind of traffic ex-MAA vs ex-BLR. As you've rightly pointed out, the traffic ex-MAA has a large portion of labour/ethnic market travelling short haul to SIN/KUL etc. While from BLR, it's a lot more hitech oriented, flying predominantly to Europe, North America, Far east etc. In terms of the ASKM, I'm sure BLR and MAA may be comparable?
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sshank
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RE: India And Singapore Agree To Allow More Flights

Fri Aug 26, 2005 11:25 pm

Not exactly - The traffic figures can be misleading. BLR was severely capacity constrained by bilaterals (only now have things opened up). Asa result till now a lot of pax were travelling ex BOM or ex MAA and so tyhe traffic figures would not paint a true picture. More realistic would be the MIDT data but then that comes at a price!

Sure BLR is capacity constrained - so, even if you say the demand in Bangalore is twice the current capacity, it would be less than MAA. So it will take a leap of faith to really believe that the people traveling to BOM and MAA make up such a huge amount to make ultimate demand there higher than MAA.

Tell me about it. The number of times I've had to go to BOM or MAA to catch an international flight is not funny. And I have to do it again next month - go to BOM to catch BD to LHR. Then again in OCT - go to MAA to catch LH to LHR. In the statistics, I'm sure I will appear as a regular ex-BOM/MAA pax, not a ex-BLR pax. And I know that there are many others in my shoes.

Well, I will! Every winter I am forced to do a pit stop in BOM because I cannot get a return to the US from MAA. Does this mean that MAA does more volume tan BOM? It just means that MAA is relatively more capacity constrained than BOM - it says nothing about the absolute demand. For example, lets say BOM demand is 110 and cap is 100, compared to MAA where demand is 60 compared to Cap of 40. In BLR it may be the Demand is 40 compared to Capacity of 20 - feeding the notion of some mega demand. I suspect all of the above is because people can't get tickets on the one LH flight that connects BLR to rest of the world  Smile

I'd also like to compare the kind of traffic ex-MAA vs ex-BLR. As you've rightly pointed out, the traffic ex-MAA has a large portion of labour/ethnic market travelling short haul to SIN/KUL etc. While from BLR, it's a lot more hitech oriented, flying predominantly to Europe, North America, Far east etc. In terms of the ASKM, I'm sure BLR and MAA may be comparable?

Huh? What would be the point? Is BLR an airline to make ASKM comparisons? As a passenger, from where do I have more options to fly out of? Think about that. Cheers!
 
mrniji
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RE: India And Singapore Agree To Allow More Flights

Fri Aug 26, 2005 11:31 pm

Quoting Sshank (Reply 21):
Well, I will! Every winter I am forced to do a pit stop in BOM because I cannot get a return to the US from MAA.

You should tie up with Texdravid here Big grin

Pretty soon BLR will have great capacity increase, and the corresponding chaos at that airport (which will make it worse than BOM). But when this new airport stands, BLR will be a wonderful place to fly in
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
Nimish
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RE: India And Singapore Agree To Allow More Flights

Fri Aug 26, 2005 11:39 pm

Quoting Sshank (Reply 21):
Well, I will! Every winter I am forced to do a pit stop in BOM because I cannot get a return to the US from MAA. Does this mean that MAA does more volume tan BOM? It just means that MAA is relatively more capacity constrained than BOM - it says nothing about the absolute demand. For example, lets say BOM demand is 110 and cap is 100, compared to MAA where demand is 60 compared to Cap of 40. In BLR it may be the Demand is 40 compared to Capacity of 20 - feeding the notion of some mega demand. I suspect all of the above is because people can't get tickets on the one LH flight that connects BLR to rest of the world Smile

The reasoning here is logical. It's also likely that demand from BLR may be 40 compared to a 60 in MAA (after all every third techie in BLR is from MAA, and might want to fly through MAA  Smile ) I think we'll get a better picture of the true situation, after we have the additional flights from BLR this winter.
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blrBird
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RE: India And Singapore Agree To Allow More Flights

Sat Aug 27, 2005 10:18 am

Sample(SE Asia & EU/USA) route stats for MAA and BLR

MAA (weekly)
CMB
IC 7x, 9W 7x, UL15x, S2 7x
SIN
IC 14x, SQ 7x, AI 7x
KUL
AI 7x, MH 7x, IC 7x, 9W 7x, S2 7X
BKK
IC 3x, TG 4x
FRA
LH 7x, AI 1x
LHR
BA 2x (6x Oct 30), AI 1x
CDG/JFK
DL 7x

BLR
SIN
SQ 3x, IC 7x
KUL
MH 3x
BKK
TG 5x, IC 2x
CMB
UL 7x
FRA
LH 5x (7x Oct 30), AI 2x
CDG
AF 5x (Oct 30)
LHR
BA 5x (Oct 30)
AMS/SEA
NW 7x (Oct 30)

MAA has a very strong ethnic market and BLR does not! EU/US routes are comparable.
from star dust....
 
sshank
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RE: India And Singapore Agree To Allow More Flights

Sat Aug 27, 2005 11:57 pm

You should tie up with Texdravid here

Perhaps I should. That said, TexD seems to have gone AWOL.  Smile

The reasoning here is logical. It's also likely that demand from BLR may be 40 compared to a 60 in MAA (after all every third techie in BLR is from MAA, and might want to fly through MAA ) I think we'll get a better picture of the true situation, after we have the additional flights from BLR this winter.

Good point - since BLR is flooded with expats from other parts of India, they probably end up flying out from their hometowns. Things will be differnt this winter, and I hope we will be spared the mad scramble to get a return out of India in January.

MAA has a very strong ethnic market and BLR does not! EU/US routes are comparable.

BlrBird - yes, starting this winter BLR and MAA will indeed have comparable number of seats to the west. The capacity increase over the last winter is quite dramatic. Its also interesting to see that AI is simply not a player in these two markets, while IC is still relevant.

Also, on the total traffic front, you have to add the services to the Gulf from MAA by the likes of IC, EK, KU and TG.
 
texdravid
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RE: India And Singapore Agree To Allow More Flights

Sun Aug 28, 2005 2:11 am

Nope, I am not AWOL, much to the chagrin of MrNiji!!

I do agree that flying out of MAA is tough because of the high demand to number of seats ratio. This is improving as LH is now daily, BA is increasing and DL has joined the game.

It would be nice if KLM would join the MAA circus, as a flight to AMS would allow Madrasi people like me to connect to another center in Europe and then on to North America.

For example, now that I live near Houston, it would be nice to fly KLM IAH-AMS-MAA. Right now, only LH would fly me one-stop to MAA (IAH-FRA-MAA), without change in carrier.

With the stupid Bermuda rule, BA would be IAH-LGW, transfer and then LHR-MAA. DL is one-stop, but AF from IAH and DL from CDG.

Thus, if AMS would fly to MAA, people like me would have little to complain about because all we ask is one-stop to MAA from North America. Nonstop to MAA from America is a pipedream, and not really important right now. Let's just get MAA filled with European/American carriers, and then we can worry about nonstop flights.
Tort reform now. Throw lawyers in jail later.
 
LAXDESI
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RE: India And Singapore Agree To Allow More Flights

Sun Aug 28, 2005 5:02 am

Didn't someone suggest in another thread that DL has low load factor from MAA. Is it pricing or lack of effective marketing? I have not heard of competitive deals from LAX on DL to MAA. I would need to fly to JFK first, making it a two stop flight to MAA. I think Air France flies LAX-CDG, but the connections to MAA are not ideal.
 
blrBird
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RE: India And Singapore Agree To Allow More Flights

Sun Aug 28, 2005 1:53 pm

Quoting Texdravid (Reply 26):
It would be nice if KLM would join the MAA circus

It may not happen anytime soon, as the recent ASA agreement mentions HYD or MAA. For some reason KLM choose HYD over MAA.

Quoting Laxdesi (Reply 27):
that DL has low load factor from MAA

I thought it was yield rather than load, I am not sure though.
from star dust....
 
TKMCE
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RE: India And Singapore Agree To Allow More Flights

Sun Aug 28, 2005 9:59 pm

quote=Blrbird,reply=28]t may not happen anytime soon, as the recent ASA agreement mentions HYD or MAA. For some reason KLM choose HYD over MAA.
[/quote]


Let me tell you some of the reasons why HYD was chosen over mAA.

1 There is huge demand - the average middle class Andhrite ( and i am quoting the words of an experienced airline manager here) has more relatives in USA than even his home state. Pitatji/Mataji goingto US for baby sitting holidays are dime a dozen evry day.

2 The demand is also reflected by the fact that AI has extended two if the ORD 774s from BOM to/from HYD.

3 Unlike in MAA where KLM has to fight with established competition in LH and BA both of whom have there been many many years, in HD they only have to deal with LH who has started only February this year and Emirates who have a connection to NYC and no where else (West coast traffic ofcourse goes mainly via Silk Air/SQ and MH).

4 KLM had offline respresentation in HYD for many years and the demand is so much that inaddition to the KL/NW flights ex DEL/BOM they also route some of the HYD pax pax via DXB(interlining with Indian Airlines) as well as via DOH (with Qatar).

5 HYD has many IT biggies (such as Google.IBM/Microsoft to name a few) and many of them have all India corporate deals with some of the US carriers.

Cheerio
 
stealthpilot
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RE: India And Singapore Agree To Allow More Flights

Mon Aug 29, 2005 6:20 am

Sorry for the late reply, was stuck in EWR thanks to AI!.
Here is the link to the article i was talking about.

http://www1.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1205598.cms

-Nikhil
eP007
 
stealthpilot
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RE: India And Singapore Agree To Allow More Flight

Mon Aug 29, 2005 6:33 am

I didn�t mean to argue that BLR was bigger than MAA; I mean to say that it�s being held back more than any other city. Of course MAA has more international flights. (Though I believe BLR has more domestic traffic)
I have never taken the LH flight from BLR- its expensive coz it�s the only option. (It�s also not supposed to be the greatest flight, but beats stopping in another city). I can tell you now than only 10% of my college going friends take that flight, the rest fly out from DEL, BOM and MAA. I doubt 10% is accurate, but I can easily claim (don�t ask for stats  Smile) that for every ticket sold from BLR, more are being sold thru these other cities.
By this winter BLR will have more choice, but the airport will be, well, you can imagine.
-Nikhil
eP007
 
Nimish
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RE: India And Singapore Agree To Allow More Flights

Mon Aug 29, 2005 2:42 pm

Quoting Nimish (Reply 6):
I haven't seen an explicit announcement to that effect from SQ

The latest I've heard is that SQ has asked for a 2pw increase in frequency (from 3 pw to 5 pw). That's still not using the entire allocation, so it's possible they may use larger aircraft on this route on the 5 days they fly here.

This information was off a new article in the Express (talking about congestion at BLR).
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