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clickhappy
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Unions Always Say The Offer Is "insulting" Why?

Thu Aug 25, 2005 11:10 pm

It seems like every time I read about a new union contract said contract gets rejected and the union calls (insert companies name) 'final offer' as 'insulting.'

The Boeing Co. presented its first complete contract proposal early Wednesday to the Machinists union, which promptly called it an "insult."

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/237841_boeunion25.html

Why? It gets SO damn old. Especially here in Seattle. Everytime the contract(s) come up for renewal there is talk of a strike. Why?

Because Unions are old school?

Love this one!

In the past, a person with seniority on a team could become its leader for a particular area. If someone with less seniority was appointed to that role, the union member with seniority could appeal through an established process. That system changed in the union's current contract, dissatisfying some members.

The company has said its position is that team leaders should be selected on the basis of their skills and ability, not seniority.


So to be a leader you should be the longest employed on your team, who cares about skills? Get real. Organized labor is dead.
 
Glareskin
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RE: Unions Always Say The Offer Is "insulting" Why?

Thu Aug 25, 2005 11:18 pm

Quoting Clickhappy (Thread starter):
Unions Always Say The Offer Is "insulting" Why?

Because in their twisted minds they honestly feel that they deserve better with their rotten mentality!!  yuck 

As you can see my experience with US Union controlled employees is not very good.
There's still a long way to go before all the alliances deserve a star...
 
Dougloid
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RE: Unions Always Say The Offer Is "insulting" Why?

Thu Aug 25, 2005 11:27 pm

You paint with a pretty broad brush my friend. I guess I could go and dig out a bunch of factual material that would start a flame war but time is limited here so I just gotta tell you-you're full of shit. I suspect you do not have a lot of experience in the work force. I myself worked in blue collar jobs all my life until I became an attorney at age 45. I know who my people are and when I was a worker bee, I knew who had my back. You can't say that.

Why do folks like you seem to have so much resistance to working people getting together for mutual aid and assistance? Employers combine to extract favorable terms from the workers....workers are producers of a resource that employers need-stands to reason that they ought to be able to do anything they need to so as to get the best possible deal for the membership.

There was a case here in the paper last night. Project manager from Pioneer age 58 gets told "no more work no alternate job sign here for severance pay and stock options." He signs. Two weeks later they refill his position with a 41 year old person. He goes all the way through the process and that signature did him in because he'd waived his rights under ADEA. had he been a member of a collective bargaining group, i.e., working with his associates for mutual assistance and bargaining power to get the best terms for their work, this never would have happened.

Well, friend. let me tell you. Some day it will be YOUR TURN in the barrel. What you do between now and then is up to you but if you don't think that your fate is linked to that of others in the same line of work you're dumber than I think.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
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OzarkD9S
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RE: Unions Always Say The Offer Is "insulting" Why?

Thu Aug 25, 2005 11:32 pm

It's always a pissing contest. Management gives a lowball offer and the unions are "insulted". Back and forth it goes until some form of agreement is reached that both can "live with". Most of the time.
Next up: STL-OAK-RNO-LAS-ICT-STL
 
supa7E7
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RE: Unions Always Say The Offer Is "insulting" Why?

Thu Aug 25, 2005 11:36 pm

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 2):
Why do folks like you seem to have so much resistance to working people getting together for mutual aid and assistance?

I guess because that process often ends up in shameful failure, such as General Motors, LTV Steel, Eastern Airlines, the US Public Schools, and the California Longshoremen.

If the public benefits from collectivization, please describe how. Since you are an attorney - imagine your paralegals unionize and strike to divert your income to themselves. That's exactly what unions do. And they are legally protected.

Yes, age discrimination is bad, and that's why it is illegal. An attorney knows that. If the man you describe documented the situation carefully, his case would be strong in court, right?
"Who's to say spaceships aren't fine art?" - Phil Lesh
 
Dougloid
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RE: Unions Always Say The Offer Is "insulting" Why?

Thu Aug 25, 2005 11:46 pm

No, as a matter of fact he lost his case. It was dismissed.

Here's what I am talking about, and as a point of information I am a solo practitioner and a virtual attorney I am my own paralegal and typist which is why I'm doing this stuff in the middle of the day.

I concur...there ARE examples of excess as you pointed out that ended with the employers and the workers all out on the street.

But the truth of it is that public benefit is not relevant to this discourse. So any discussion of public benefit must wait until we see how Walmart and General Electric can demonstrate how their private conduct benefits the public, unless it is peripheral to their main purpose which is getting the most money that they can. And that's our system of business.

But is this not the correct functioning of a free market economy? I mean, if companies can negotiate the most favorable terms for fuel, metal, raw material and services, the workers ought to be able to use that same rubric to negotiate the best deal for themselves. And if that means they choose to work together rather than as isolated individuals, that's free enterprise as Adam Smith envisioned it.

Quoting Supa7e7 (Reply 4):
guess because that process often ends up in shameful failure, such as General Motors, LTV Steel, Eastern Airlines, the US Public Schools, and the California Longshoremen.

If the public benefits from collectivization, please describe how. Since you are an attorney - imagine your paralegals unionize and strike to divert your income to themselves. That's exactly what unions do. And they are legally protected.

Yes, age discrimination is bad, and that's why it is illegal. An attorney knows that. If the man you describe documented the situation carefully, his case would be strong in court, right?
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
DLPMMM
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RE: Unions Always Say The Offer Is "insulting" Why?

Thu Aug 25, 2005 11:49 pm

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 2):
There was a case here in the paper last night. Project manager from Pioneer age 58 gets told "no more work no alternate job sign here for severance pay and stock options." He signs. Two weeks later they refill his position with a 41 year old person. He goes all the way through the process and that signature did him in because he'd waived his rights under ADEA. had he been a member of a collective bargaining group, i.e., working with his associates for mutual assistance and bargaining power to get the best terms for their work, this never would have happened.

You seem to have left out the possibility that the project manager was doing an incompetent job, or had made somekind of terminable transgression.

If this is the case and he had been a member of a "collective bargaining unit" that "saved" hais job for him as you outlined, that would not have been a triumph for the workers or the company.

Also, If the person is a "Project Manager" as you described, then the "Manager" part means he is a part of "Management" and as such would not be eligable for union membership.

Pretty poor example to use to try to bolster your case Mr. Solicitor.

So to put it bluntly:

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 2):
I just gotta tell you-you're full of shit.
 
UAcosCS
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RE: Unions Always Say The Offer Is "insulting" Why?

Thu Aug 25, 2005 11:50 pm

Quoting Clickhappy (Thread starter):
Organized labor is dead.

couldn't have said it better myself!
We had dreams and songs to sing, It's so lonely round the fields of Athenry.
 
bobnwa
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RE: Unions Always Say The Offer Is "insulting" Why?

Thu Aug 25, 2005 11:58 pm

Things Unions always say,

We have broken our backs for this company.
The offer is insulting.
The last paycheck will be a full paycheck.
We are going to drag the company down with us.
Thats not my job.
We are just following the contract(during slowdown).
etc.
 
Dougloid
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RE: Unions Always Say The Offer Is "insulting" Why?

Thu Aug 25, 2005 11:58 pm

[quote=DLPMMM,reply=6]You seem to have left out the possibility that the project manager was doing an incompetent job, or had made somekind of terminable transgression.

If this is the case and he had been a member of a "collective bargaining unit" that "saved" hais job for him as you outlined, that would not have been a triumph for the workers or the company.

Also, If the person is a "Project Manager" as you described, then the "Manager" part means he is a part of "Management" and as such would not be eligable for union membership.

Pretty poor example to use to try to bolster your case Mr. Solicitor.

FYI I am not a solicitor. That is an honorific applied to certain folks in the Commonwealth...the US opted out of that group in 1776.

Nope....that's entirely possible and I didn't leave it out. But I think not because Iowa happens to be an "employment at will" state, which means that an employer can fire a worker for any cause, good cause, or no cause. So if the guy was an incompetent idiot it would have been the easiest thing in the world to just give him 2 weeks pay and show him the door. But that's not what hapened. He was gotten rid of to open up a slot for someone else's favorite.

Who's to say that people in management or other professions cannot form their own bargaining associations? You? SCPEA comes to mind and they're all engineers.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
DLPMMM
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RE: Unions Always Say The Offer Is "insulting" Why?

Fri Aug 26, 2005 12:41 am

Quoting Clickhappy (Thread starter):
Nope....that's entirely possible and I didn't leave it out. But I think not because Iowa happens to be an "employment at will" state, which means that an employer can fire a worker for any cause, good cause, or no cause. So if the guy was an incompetent idiot it would have been the easiest thing in the world to just give him 2 weeks pay and show him the door. But that's not what hapened. He was gotten rid of to open up a slot for someone else's favorite.

You may "think not" but your logic is flawed. I have let several incompetent and/or legally terminable people go in an "employment at will" state giving them severance and or allowing them to collect unemployment when they were not eligible for such simply because it was the charitable thing to do. These people were replaced with someone who could do the job properly/honestly.

I have had 1 employee over 30 years that tried to sue for wrongful termination (probably at the urging of an attorney such as yourself). That employee ended up paying my company to allow him to drop the suit!

Just because you can imagine that there is some nefarious management plot behind an employee termination (and that is what you cite in your example) does not mean that such a plot exists.

People in management cannot join unions because they would be bargaining with themselves.

With respect to SCPEA, just because you are an engineer does not make you a part of management. Another irrelevant example.
 
lincoln
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RE: Unions Always Say The Offer Is "insulting" Why?

Fri Aug 26, 2005 12:47 am

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 5):
I mean, if companies can negotiate the most favorable terms for fuel, metal, raw material and services, the workers ought to be able to use that same rubric to negotiate the best deal for themselves

This is exactly the reason I left my last job... The workers ought to be able to negotiate the best deal for themselves. Instead, the union was negotiating the best deal for itself/protecting the incompetent among its membership and those whose sole qualification was years of service.

I tried negotiating a better deal for myself but my employer's hands were tied by the pay scale that had been negotiated with the union and my length of service. So I found a new job in a non-union environment that pays significantly more (in the range of 3x), offers better benefits, more vacation, and requires about 75% of the hours I was putting in before.

I wasn't happy with what the company was willing to "pay" for my "product" so I went out and found someone who was willing to "pay" what I felt my "product" was worth. I also parted ways with my former employer very amicably and have been welcomed to come back if "it doesn't work out" or if I "ever need to come back to California'.

Lincoln
CO Is My Airline of Choice || Baggage Claim is an airline's last chance to disappoint a customer || Next flts in profile
 
sphealey
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RE: Unions Always Say The Offer Is "insulting" Why?

Fri Aug 26, 2005 1:04 am

Not taking _any_ side in this discussion  Wink

Interested readers who have not taken any labor economics and/or negotiation theory classes may want to start by reading _Negotiating Rationally_ by Brazerman and O'Neill (ISBN 0029019869). It is a readable non-technical introduction to negotiation theory and explains the reasons behind many of the behaviours described in this thread. Note that one does not have to agree that a behavour is good or acceptable to understand the reasons behind it.

sPh
 
lh477
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RE: Unions Always Say The Offer Is "insulting" Why?

Fri Aug 26, 2005 1:18 am

Organized labour is not dead.....It is having alot difficulty...but not dead....
The rights that many employees take for granted have been gotten to them by
labour movements of the past. Workplace safety, Minimum Wages,etc have all been legislated because of labour movements of the last century and half.
If you believe most employers are being kind and generous from the bottom of thier hearts, the reality is different. Market Capitalism and Laize-Faire Economics don't have soft spots, these are ruthless philosophies.

I do agree that Unionism has gotten very militant. Ultimately, it comes down to very simple uconcept, the employer(need of human capital) and the worker(provider of human capital) does not have the same negotiating capacity, a level playing field. For the employer, it's just another worker, for the worker though it's his living.
Come on you gunners......!!!!!
 
AMSSpotter
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RE: Unions Always Say The Offer Is "insulting" Why?

Fri Aug 26, 2005 1:58 am

Dougloid, LH477: welcome to my Respected User List.

In the 18th century, people here had to work in paper factories -to name an example- for at least 12 hours a day (if not more), scooping up loads of paper-pulp that were weighing like 15Kg/33Lb each. They had to do this about 1,750 times a day and kids were working in these factories as well.

Today, with all the freedom, luxuries and spare-time we have here (in the wealthy-world, that is), it's almost the other way round but all these so much better labour-conditions we now enjoy, had to almost literally be fought for.

I'm not a member of a union and unions can get quite militant from time to time (as was mentioned) but I think they do serve a valid purpose.
Both groups, unions as well as employers, simply play a verbal battle each time they are negotiating a contract.
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Unions Always Say The Offer Is "insulting" Why?

Fri Aug 26, 2005 2:00 am

Unions Always Say The Offer Is "insulting" Why?

Because, like it or not, it's a negotiation and the best chance you have at getting what you want in any negotiation is by asking for MORE than you actually want, or acting like something that's really close to what you want is nowhere NEAR enough.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
Dougloid
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RE: Unions Always Say The Offer Is "insulting" Why?

Fri Aug 26, 2005 2:34 am

Quoting AMSSpotter (Reply 14):
Dougloid, LH477: welcome to my Respected User List.

thanks for the vote of confidence, bruthah....I was a member of two unions. The IBEW, local 910 was worthless as teats on a bull. They started a strike against Ma Bell back in the early seventies and I had to quit and find another job because there wasn't any strike pay and I had two kids and a wife to feed on ...get this.....wealthiest nation in the world.....$2.62-1/2 an hour.

On the other hand I was-maybe still am-a member of Local 148 of the UAW at McDonnell Douglas. I still have my union card under the glass with my law license. Because of the union the workers were treated fairly and civilly by management. We also had certain rights, one of which was that in the event of layoffs a strict system of seniority and time in service would determine the order in which people were laid off. The entire process was fair and transparent, and perhaps that is what gripes a lot of people, when cheating people is ever so much more efficient and profitable.

As a worker of blue collar origin and no great pretensions it was well worth the dues for me to be a member.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
lh477
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RE: Unions Always Say The Offer Is "insulting" Why?

Fri Aug 26, 2005 2:50 am

Quoting AMSSpotter (Reply 14):
Dougloid, LH477: welcome to my Respected User List.

Thanks!

Many people don't understand that ruthless capitalism of the 1800's in Europe gave birth to Marx and socialism which in turn has given birth our current version of market captialism. If Adam Smith was alive today, he certainly wouldn't be calling today version "Capitalism".
Come on you gunners......!!!!!
 
Glareskin
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RE: Unions Always Say The Offer Is "insulting" Why?

Fri Aug 26, 2005 3:43 am

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 2):
You paint with a pretty broad brush my friend.

Oops... Is this the same Dougloid that I just gave a golden A-net award in another thread?  confused 
I thought you had a sense of humor, my friend..
There's still a long way to go before all the alliances deserve a star...
 
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clickhappy
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RE: Unions Always Say The Offer Is "insulting" Why?

Fri Aug 26, 2005 10:38 am

Dougloid  Smile

If it was so good (labor) why did you leave it?

PS - I make more than you  Wink

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