planemannyc
Posts: 939
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2003 12:54 am

Pilots Forget To Put Down Landing Gear

Fri Aug 26, 2005 5:31 am

http://www.boston.com/news/odd/artic...s_forget_to_put_down_landing_gear/

Talk about a major "ooops". How embarrassing. Thankfully it was not a large airliner.

Best,

Wasim / Planemannyc
 
planemannyc
Posts: 939
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2003 12:54 am

RE: Pilots Forget To Put Down Landing Gear

Fri Aug 26, 2005 5:33 am

...then again, I guess most airliners will have a warning signal....

Best,

Wasim / Planemannyc
 
wjcandee
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RE: Pilots Forget To Put Down Landing Gear

Fri Aug 26, 2005 5:36 am

Happens every weekend. It's a common weekend warrior problem. Count what the most popular accident was last weekend at:

http://www.faa.gov/data_statistics/a...reliminary_data/media/A_0822_Y.txt

I count three gear up landings and a few "gear collapsed", some of which might also be gear up landings.

Best,

Bill
 
OPNLguy
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RE: Pilots Forget To Put Down Landing Gear

Fri Aug 26, 2005 5:53 am

Quoting Planemannyc (Thread starter):
Talk about a major "ooops". How embarrassing. Thankfully it was not a large airliner.

Well, it's happened at least once in the past...

Frontier (v1.0) 737-200 at CPR in 1983....

http://members.tripod.com/~LAMKINS/FL_737CPR.jpg

[Edited 2005-08-25 23:15:31]
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
DouglasDC8
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RE: Pilots Forget To Put Down Landing Gear

Fri Aug 26, 2005 5:54 am

As I recall reading in Aviation Week years ago, this almost happened to a CO 727 on a flight from EWR to ORD in the late 80's. Thankfully, an AA pilot noticed the 727's gear up, and announced that fact on the radio. The CO pilot pulled up, with only an antenna striking the runway. The flight then landed without further incident.
 
roseflyer
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RE: Pilots Forget To Put Down Landing Gear

Fri Aug 26, 2005 6:08 am

And that is why you use your checklists!!! So many stupid pilot mistakes are because people get complacent and think they know everything and have "memorized" checklists or don't really use them.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
FriendlySkies
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RE: Pilots Forget To Put Down Landing Gear

Fri Aug 26, 2005 6:10 am

The saddest part is that one was an instructor and the other was an instructor in training.  ill 
 
MGB80
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RE: Pilots Forget To Put Down Landing Gear

Fri Aug 26, 2005 6:22 am

Obviously not taught GUMPS befrore landing
G - Gas
U - Undercarriage
M- Mixture
P - Props
S - Speed
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Pilots Forget To Put Down Landing Gear

Fri Aug 26, 2005 6:34 am

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 3):
Well, it's happened at least once in the past...

Didn't AI come very close to landing a 744 gear up at EWR a few years ago?
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
COEWR787
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RE: Pilots Forget To Put Down Landing Gear

Fri Aug 26, 2005 6:40 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 8):
Didn't AI come very close to landing a 744 gear up at EWR a few years ago?

Yes. An alert air traffic controller in the Newark Tower caught that one just in the nick of time and alerted the 744.
 
Mainliner
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RE: Pilots Forget To Put Down Landing Gear

Fri Aug 26, 2005 6:42 am

They should have heard a loud intermittent buzzing when they configure the flaps for landing and/or once the power is below a certain point. I wonder if they just ignored it or if the alarm wasn't working.
Every flight counts.
 
AirWillie6475
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RE: Pilots Forget To Put Down Landing Gear

Fri Aug 26, 2005 6:45 am

Yea, don't they have some kind of alarm in the plane?
 
planemannyc
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RE: Pilots Forget To Put Down Landing Gear

Fri Aug 26, 2005 6:45 am

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 6):
The saddest part is that one was an instructor and the other was an instructor in training.

Yeah, good luck to their students!  Silly

In all honesty, I think they will probably alwayrs remember this incident .... for them it might be UGMPS forever  Wink

Best,

Wasim / Planemannyc
 
777wt
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RE: Pilots Forget To Put Down Landing Gear

Fri Aug 26, 2005 7:29 am

Don't they have a warning horn that sounds when there's an unsafe or retracted gear when the throttles are closed?
 
N766UA
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RE: Pilots Forget To Put Down Landing Gear

Fri Aug 26, 2005 7:31 am

Guy at one of the local airports here just did that last week in a mooney.
This Website Censors Me
 
CV990
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RE: Pilots Forget To Put Down Landing Gear

Fri Aug 26, 2005 7:48 am

Hi!

I think a few years ago an L188 from Atlantic Airlines did the same, the crew forgot to put the gear down and some of the propellers diameter narrowed a "little bit"!!!
Regards
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!
 
Bobster2
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RE: Pilots Forget To Put Down Landing Gear

Fri Aug 26, 2005 8:07 am

It happened to a major airline. They landed without knowing that the wheels were up. The first officer may have known, but he won't admit it and the NTSB can't prove it. The captain certainly did not know because he took control and landed the plane. There were no injuries. The accident report is very amusing.

Wheels-Up Landing, Continental Airlines Flight 1943
Douglas DC-9 N10556
Houston, Texas
February 19, 1996

http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/1997/AAR9701.htm
"I tell you this, no eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn." Jim Morrison
 
C133
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RE: Pilots Forget To Put Down Landing Gear

Fri Aug 26, 2005 11:45 pm

EVERY airplane with retractable landing gear has a gear up warning system triggered by reduced throttle, usually coupled with landing flaps, airspeed, something to avoid nuisance warnings. It is not easy to land with the gear retracted and yet it happens. The old saw is "Say again about landing gear tower, I can't hear you over the noise from this loud horn that's blowing."
Fine: Tax for doing wrong. Tax: Fine for doing well.
 
drinkstrolley
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RE: Pilots Forget To Put Down Landing Gear

Fri Aug 26, 2005 11:46 pm

I like this:-

"No one was hurt in the incident. The plane received only minor damage, Johnson said."

I've seen a twin after a belly landing and there was nothing "minor" about the damage. Two knackered props for starters.
 
Dtw757
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RE: Pilots Forget To Put Down Landing Gear

Sat Aug 27, 2005 12:07 am

Pilots are merely people who make mistakes from time to time. Landing an airplane to me is the most difficult part of flying. There is a lot going on prior to a landing and if you don't double and triple check yourself you may forget a step. Obviously the gear is the most important thing to check but I can see how it can be forgotten. Before criticizing others, just remember none of us are perfect
721,2,732,3,4,5,G,8,9,741,2,3,4,752,3,762,3,4,772,3,788,D93,5,M80,D10,M11,L10,100,AB6,319,20,21,332,3,346,388,146,CR2,7,
 
Loadsheet
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RE: Pilots Forget To Put Down Landing Gear

Sat Aug 27, 2005 12:17 am

in the 60's Swissair hat one incident in Vienna Austria. The pilots were on training and during an approach to rwy 11 they opened the window to simulate cabin pressure loss and therefor they did not hear the warning horn that the gear was not extended.
 
jush
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RE: Pilots Forget To Put Down Landing Gear

Sat Aug 27, 2005 12:31 am

Strange though because you get a warning sound when your speed is getting lower and or the flaps are extended more than a certain degree...
And then again if you don't pull the gear lever you should get a proximity warning when coming near the ground (something like: terrain, terrain, pull up).
That are all facts for airliners not for private planes.
But i don't think it's possibile to do undeliberately in a modern plane.
There is one problem with airbus. Though their products are engineering marvels they lack passion, completely.
 
philb
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RE: Pilots Forget To Put Down Landing Gear

Sat Aug 27, 2005 12:55 am

CV990,

The L188 accident was a Channel Express aircraft at Shannon. I'm away from home at present and can't access my records but, from memory the date was March 1 1999.

The aircraft was on the daily flight which comes down from Dublin and then unloads and parks up at Shannon all day - now operated by an A300.

The flight approached the runway and, without benefit of undercarriage, three of the four props touched the tarmac forcing one prop on the port side to shatter and the others to be bent.

The shattered prop threw debris into the engine adjacent and stopped it. Debris punctured the fuselage in a number of places.

On the starboard side the inboard engine was rocked off centre from its mountings.

The captain elected to go around but on base leg the damaged starboard engine quit. With only one turning the aircraft managed to make it back to the runway and, in all the chaos, this time someone remembered to lower the gear.

The crew survived unharmed though no doubt their pride was dented and the Chief Pilot no doubt had some pithy comments.

The aircraft N285F fared much worse and was slowly broken up at Shannon over the next three years or so.
 
RedDragon
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RE: Pilots Forget To Put Down Landing Gear

Sat Aug 27, 2005 1:02 am

Quoting Drinkstrolley (Reply 18):
"No one was hurt in the incident. The plane received only minor damage, Johnson said."

I've seen a twin after a belly landing and there was nothing "minor" about the damage. Two knackered props for starters.

This made me wonder... The article doesn't say what aircraft was involved. Could it be a jet rather than a prop? Anyone know what equipment Georgia Aviation Technical College use?

Rich
 
jtamu97
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RE: Pilots Forget To Put Down Landing Gear

Sat Aug 27, 2005 1:23 am

Quoting C133 (Reply 17):
EVERY airplane with retractable landing gear has a gear up warning system triggered by reduced throttle, usually coupled with landing flaps, airspeed, something to avoid nuisance warnings. It is not easy to land with the gear retracted and yet it happens

That is why I like me little Piper Arrow..The gear extends automatically with the reduced speed...Now this only happens if you can ignore the obnoxious horn going off!!

Later,
J
Propeller, we don't need no stinkin propeller
 
usnseallt82
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RE: Pilots Forget To Put Down Landing Gear

Sat Aug 27, 2005 2:02 am

Quoting DTW757 (Reply 19):
Before criticizing others, just remember none of us are perfect

That was retarded. I don't think anyone on here was criticizing anyone but more of getting a kick out of how they just forgot. Yeah, it happens, but it shouldn't happen that often...especially not to 2 instructors.

Cheers!  Big grin
Crye me a river
 
highflyer9790
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RE: Pilots Forget To Put Down Landing Gear

Sat Aug 27, 2005 4:25 am

Ever heard of something called a checklist?
121
 
harry
Posts: 37
Joined: Wed May 25, 2005 12:01 pm

RE: Pilots Forget To Put Down Landing Gear

Sat Aug 27, 2005 5:53 am

some pilots sometime take a shortcut, even when i fly with a single engine plane, i just do a quick check without looking the checklist and land
Harry
 
wjcandee
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Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

RE: Pilots Forget To Put Down Landing Gear

Sat Aug 27, 2005 5:55 am

As in the Continental accident, the fact is that people IGNORE the alarms. They become complacent. They assume that the alarm is at fault.

In the CO accident, it appears that the pilot actually pulled the fuse on the GPWS which was saying "pull up", and responded to the gear alarm by speaking to it and telling it that it was sounding an alarm because he was adjusting the throttles. Nobody bothered to run the final checklist ("down, 3 green"), nor did they look at the landing gear indicator much less the hydraulic pressure indicator. They were so sure that because they had properly commanded thigns to happen (gear handle down, flap handle at 50) that these things had happened, despite all the alarms to the contrary.

People screw up checklists, they fail to follow SOP, etc. It sucks, but it's more common than you think. "Now where was I?" on a checklist should always lead to starting the checklist over, not assuming where you were and then resuming.
 
goingboeing
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Joined: Sat Dec 04, 1999 1:58 am

RE: Pilots Forget To Put Down Landing Gear

Sat Aug 27, 2005 6:26 am

I remember listening to my scanner back in the early 70's when I lived in Orlando. Back then MCO shared the property with an air force base (McCoy AFB - hence the MCO identifier for Orlando) and the tower was run by the military. A landing clearance to every aircraft, AF or Commercial was "Check gear down, cleared to land".
 
VSIVARIES
Posts: 102
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2004 9:25 am

RE: Pilots Forget To Put Down Landing Gear

Sat Aug 27, 2005 6:45 am

In the UK (GA this is) we have pre-landing checks rammed down our throats from day 1, so you are able to do it very quickly if you in a busy circuit:

B - Brakes (off)
U - undercarriage (down)
M - Mixture (rich)
F - Flaps - (set)
F - Fuel - (fullest tank)
P - Pitch - (set)
I - Instruments (working! ALT esp)
C - Carb heat (check)
H - hatches (secure)
H - Harnesses (secure)

Shame neither of them got to point 2.

B/R
For every action there is always an unequal but mostly similar reaction.
 
usnseallt82
Posts: 4727
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RE: Pilots Forget To Put Down Landing Gear

Sat Aug 27, 2005 10:43 am

Quoting Goingboeing (Reply 29):
"Check gear down, cleared to land".

The Navy does this every day with every flight. We have to call in "three down and locked, full stop," or whatever landing we're attempting. Its a good safety check but the problem is that after a while people become so used to saying it over comms that they don't actually check to see if the gear's down.
Crye me a river
 
C133
Posts: 205
Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2005 7:34 am

RE: Pilots Forget To Put Down Landing Gear

Sat Aug 27, 2005 1:07 pm

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 31):
Quoting Goingboeing (Reply 29):
"Check gear down, cleared to land".

The Navy does this every day with every flight.

Can't say for more recent times, but in the sixties an observer was positioned at the end of all Navy runways (on land) to check for gear down. I believe he had a flag which was to be waved vigorously at wheelless pilots. It sounds ridiculous now, but probably helped. Maybe I should say I saw it at the few Navy bases I visited in Air Force aircraft, or maybe it was just for Air Force pilots!

[Edited 2005-08-27 06:12:01]
Fine: Tax for doing wrong. Tax: Fine for doing well.
 
usnseallt82
Posts: 4727
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2004 4:49 pm

RE: Pilots Forget To Put Down Landing Gear

Sat Aug 27, 2005 1:49 pm

Quoting C133 (Reply 32):
or maybe it was just for Air Force pilots!

Haha, I'll leave that one alone.

The Navy used to have LSO's, Landing Signal Officers, that used paddles to do a rough human-version of the VASI and PAPI, but also had to have the alarming duty of wailing rapidly when the gear wasn't down. Surprisingly, even after all the technological developments that we have, gear-up landings are one of the most common incidents that we get...especially on training bases. The stuff hits the fan with a student in the cockpit and even the instructor loses his frame of mind...affectionately known as 'helmet fires.'  Big grin You get buzzers and lights, especially in the T-6's, T-2's, and T-45's, but they don't do the job when all the attention is focused on the flare or killer x-wind.
Crye me a river
 
usnseallt82
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Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2004 4:49 pm

RE: Pilots Forget To Put Down Landing Gear

Sat Aug 27, 2005 2:17 pm

Quoting Bobster2 (Reply 16):
Wheels-Up Landing, Continental Airlines Flight 1943
Douglas DC-9 N10556
Houston, Texas
February 19, 1996

Here's the picture to that aircraft after the accident...

http://www.airliners.net/open.file?id=049461
Crye me a river
 
tsaord
Posts: 1267
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RE: Pilots Forget To Put Down Landing Gear

Sat Aug 27, 2005 2:25 pm

good lord! is there some type of dark cloud hanging over the aviation industry right now with all these near misses and fatal accidents.

p.s. funny thing to me is, i finally want to get on a plane in my adulthood, then all the accidents start happening!
there are icons, then there are legends, then there is rick flair
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Pilots Forget To Put Down Landing Gear

Sat Aug 27, 2005 6:22 pm


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Bryan Correira


Why would a Pilot Ignore an Audio Warning.Complacency.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
legacy135
Posts: 966
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 11:06 pm

RE: Pilots Forget To Put Down Landing Gear

Sat Aug 27, 2005 10:05 pm

It's quiet simple: There are only two groups of pilots in the world: "Those who already" and "those who didn't yet"......

For those of you guys in the a.net here, listing us those checklists, don't you think that the crews like the one in the CO MD80 or other highly trained professionals did never hear this and would say "woaooooo, what a great advice......" ???

I used to think that it could never happen to me and I am lucky, it did not happen yet. I also do my outmost to reach my retirement without doing it  Wink I was for a long time having the opinion that to an halfway intelligent person it will never ever happen. I had the chance then to talk to somebody who did it and I have to admit, that there can be circumstances in which, in combination with usual mistakes something real silly like a gear up landing can happen. And mistakes are happening to all of us..... Anyone of you "GUMPS - guy's" who never did a mistake in live before?

By the way there are better checklists than that GUMPS - stuff, as a good checklist can be applied from the smallest to the largest and most complex aircraft. Logics should always be the same. Then we have another manner to eliminate it.
 
CV990
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Joined: Sat May 22, 1999 3:49 am

RE: Pilots Forget To Put Down Landing Gear

Sat Aug 27, 2005 10:10 pm

Hi!

PhilB - Thanks for yr. correction, I knew it was an L188 somewhere in UK but probably I was giving the "bad credit" to Atlantic.... my mistake!!!! Yes I agree with you that probably that crew did had a very traumatic experience with all this event!
Regards
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!
 
Type-Rated
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RE: Pilots Forget To Put Down Landing Gear

Sun Aug 28, 2005 2:55 am

If you can get a hold of the actual NTSB report for that CO incident, you'd be amazed at what you'd read! The pilots were answering the tower requests with "Si, Si, senior" and singing songs all the way down final. Total disregard for procedures and professionalism. By reading the report you'd have thought that these guys were in a Tequila bar! I think they noticed that the gear wasn't down when the aircraft settled a little lower than normal. These pilots "claimed" it was a gear failure, but when I saw the photos of the plane in the next days news I could easily tell it was a gear up landing. If the gear had really collapsed, it should have been one side only, or even if it was both sides, you'd have bent up landing gear all over the place. I'd heard that after they lifted the aircraft up off its belly, someone moved the gear handle to "gear down" and sure enough, the landing gear came down and locked.
Needless to say, CO promptly sacked the both of them.
Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
 
philb
Posts: 2645
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 5:53 am

RE: Pilots Forget To Put Down Landing Gear

Sun Aug 28, 2005 3:05 am

Quoting CV990 (Reply 38):
I knew it was an L188 somewhere in UK

Shannon is in the Irish Republic, not the UK!!
 
wjcandee
Posts: 5339
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

RE: Pilots Forget To Put Down Landing Gear

Sun Aug 28, 2005 3:37 am

Quoting Type-Rated (Reply 39):
If you can get a hold of the actual NTSB report for that CO incident

It was posted earlier in this thread: http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/1997/aar9701.pdf

The F/O wanted to go around, but was afraid to push the captain beyond just suggesting it once (so much for CRM), because he had had a bad experience with a captain who didn't like him that resulted in his being sent for a psychological exam; in order to prevent that in the future, he did "captain management" by not really speaking his mind, thinking that it would preserve his career. Obviously, a bad plan in the end, as it resulted in this. He should have at least said, "Captain, something's wrong with the aircraft; I really think we should go around and diagnose it."

The captain tried at first to say that he thought that the flaps had responded. Of course, he also said that he continued to land because he had a 10,000-foot runway. NTSB breaks that off in his butt, pointing out that he wouldn't need 10K feet in a DC9 and wouldn't have needed to keep his approach speed so high, if he had actually believed himself to have had flaps working. He knew the flaps weren't working, and he landed without thinking about whether a flap failure might be the result of a broader failure that would also affect other systems, like the gear. Dumbass. Ooops. Sorry. Now-unemployed dumbass.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 5339
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

RE: Pilots Forget To Put Down Landing Gear

Sun Aug 28, 2005 4:07 am

Quoting Type-Rated (Reply 39):
I'd heard that after they lifted the aircraft up off its belly, someone moved the gear handle to "gear down" and sure enough, the landing gear came down and locked.

You might be thinking of another incident. In the CO incident at IAH, they had the gear handle down; they didn't have the hydraulic system on HIGH, so there was insufficient pressure to extend the gear and flaps. The captain had overlooked the item on the checklist that called for putting the hydraulic system on HIGH.
 
planespotting
Posts: 3026
Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2004 4:54 am

RE: Pilots Forget To Put Down Landing Gear

Sun Aug 28, 2005 2:43 pm

scoffing at someone making a mistake and saying "not me" is the first step toward becoming complacent and becoming a statistic.
Do you like movies about gladiators?
 
exPratt
Posts: 306
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2000 6:15 am

RE: Pilots Forget To Put Down Landing Gear

Sun Aug 28, 2005 4:20 pm

There are two types of pilots that fly retractable gear airplanes:

Those that have....

and those that are gonna....

land with the gear up.


And there are numerous stories about pilots landing with the gear up and the tower asking how come he didn't respond when they were telling him his gear was up. The pilot responded that he couldn't hear the tower because the gear warning horn was making too much noise.
 
usnseallt82
Posts: 4727
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2004 4:49 pm

RE: Pilots Forget To Put Down Landing Gear

Sun Aug 28, 2005 4:52 pm

Quoting ExPratt (Reply 44):
The pilot responded that he couldn't hear the tower because the gear warning horn was making too much noise.

This seems to happen a lot too. Pilots complain that in the heat of a landing, the gear warning becomes more of a annoyance and distraction rather than an actual warning because they don't realize what it is exactly. Its called overtasking, but shouldn't be an excuse.
Crye me a river

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