AA7573E
Topic Author
Posts: 468
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2003 11:34 am

NWA Mechanics

Fri Aug 26, 2005 11:13 pm

How irrelevant have the striking mechanics made themselves? Operations at NWA are essentially smooth, given the quicker move up to the fall schedule and the fact that everyone of the temp mechanics completed a NWA training program weeks in advance of the strike. NWA did a great job of preparing for the strike, and not caving prior to the strike will likely prove to be one of the best bets they have made in quite some time.

Furthermore, the inept strike is allegedly giving NWA the leverage they want to deepen the cuts against the union, and demand more give backs from the workers. How great is that. Go on strike, and end up giving more away. What fools. IT is good to see that the union leadership really thought this one out! Jackasses.

I hope everyone of the striking mechanics gets a healthy dose of cold reality, when NWA offers full time positions to the temporary workers. Just another example of how greedy unions have their heads firmly planted up their asses.

Enjoy the picket line ladies, and be sure to make friends so that you can all carpool to the unemployment lines.

[Edited 2005-08-26 16:17:24]
See you up front!
 
BR715-A1-30
Posts: 6525
Joined: Thu May 30, 2002 9:30 am

RE: NWA Mechanics

Fri Aug 26, 2005 11:16 pm

Here Here!! Well said. Now, I do agree that after the strike, they should send the replacements group by group to a more extensive training class if offered a permanent position. And NWA should go ahead and do the smart thing... File for Ch. 11

[Edited 2005-08-26 16:17:18]
Puhdiddle
 
mtnmanmakalu
Posts: 493
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2004 1:47 pm

RE: NWA Mechanics

Sat Aug 27, 2005 12:06 am

As an NWA F/A in the middle of this contract mess, I am considering looking for another job as what has happened with the Mechanics has destroyed all the other work groups bargaining power... If NWA gets what they are offering, it would not be worth it to ME to be an F/A here, as much as I like my job... Commuting, being away from home 15-20 days a month, and the 14 hour work days is not worth $20,000.00 a year and horrible work rules when you have a home, kid's, and all the "normal" things to take care of..... And that's just me and my opinion so if that would work for you after 10 years at a Company, be my guest!!

mtnman  crazy 
I do, I don't, whatever.......
 
KarlB737
Posts: 2630
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2004 9:51 pm

RE: NWA Mechanics

Sat Aug 27, 2005 12:44 am

Courtesy: WCCO-TV

Replacement Mechanics Could Soon Be Permanent

Video Report Included:

http://wcco.com/local/local_story_238112745.html
 
Lumberton
Posts: 4176
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 7:34 am

RE: NWA Mechanics

Sat Aug 27, 2005 12:59 am

Quoting Mtnmanmakalu (Reply 2):
$20,000.00 a year

For real??? Is this the prevailing salary for flight attendants?
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
dl757md
Posts: 1482
Joined: Mon May 24, 2004 9:32 am

RE: NWA Mechanics

Sat Aug 27, 2005 1:19 am

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 4):
or real??? Is this the prevailing salary for flight attendants?

No, but gauging by the cuts that NW wants from AMFA, it's not an unrealistic estimate of what a NW FA would expect to make after NW gets through with them.

DL757Md
757 Most beautiful airliner in the sky!
 
mtnmanmakalu
Posts: 493
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2004 1:47 pm

RE: NWA Mechanics

Sat Aug 27, 2005 1:20 am

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 4):
For real??? Is this the prevailing salary for flight attendants?

With the proposed cuts in wages and benefits, a NW F/A's at a seniority of 10 years, average pay would be around $24,000.00, down from about $40,000.00... How many people in the general public would stay at their current job if that was to happen to them??

Not really worth it to ME anymore if it passed...

I guess $50,000.00 a year to the Mechanics doesn't sound so bad after all...

mtnman  tired 
I do, I don't, whatever.......
 
777Purser
Posts: 215
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 4:47 pm

RE: NWA Mechanics

Sat Aug 27, 2005 1:22 am

Quoting Mtnmanmakalu (Reply 2):
I am considering looking for another job as what has happened with the Mechanics has destroyed all the other work groups bargaining power.

Hi there Mntman...I share your concern. People either do not grasp what the effect of NW management busting a union could have on labor not only at NW but throught the industry OR they just dont care because they are not INSIDE and have no idea what they are talking about. I do not know if FA's at NW have already accepted any paycuts and work rule changes. If you did not, believe me...IT IS COMMING. We agreed to concessions ( though it was after a fishy re-vote) about three years ago...5000 people lost their jobs...

Our duty days now can be up to 16 hrs long with multiple legs, rest periods can be 8 hrs....that means less than 6 behind the door...5 hours sleep or less sometimes. Somehow we have managed to adapt, fly over 120 hours a month to make ends meet...and hope for better times.

I do realize NW needs to cut costs, I just do not agree with the way they are doing things, making unreasonable demands (53% job loss, 26% paycut for instance) getting SCABS ready for FA replacement...Bad management, threatening and demoralizing!! Like its all on labor...its not! Its on management's lack of creativity, lack of ideas and abundance of executive bonuses!!

I am curious to know what hey want from the FA's now, but I sure hope that is not something unreasonable, now that management feels they can do anything they want to their employees. Best luck to you and everyone at NW.

In Unity.
 
NWBOS
Posts: 122
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2005 11:01 pm

RE: NWA Mechanics

Sat Aug 27, 2005 1:26 am

Quoting Mtnmanmakalu (Reply 6):
With the proposed cuts in wages and benefits, a NW F/A's at a seniority of 10 years, average pay would be around $24,000.00, down from about $40,000.00... How many people in the general public would stay at their current job if that was to happen to them??

Boy, don't hold your breath waiting for the eyes to well up with tears on this board. Before you'll know it, you'll have a hundred people saying if you don't like your job, leave. It's really a travesty to see what is happening to this industry, and the mechanics situation underscores it all. I feel bad for everyone on the picket line and all of my colleagues at NWA that I talk with know that our turn is coming.
 
Lumberton
Posts: 4176
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 7:34 am

RE: NWA Mechanics

Sat Aug 27, 2005 1:31 am

Quoting Mtnmanmakalu (Reply 6):
With the proposed cuts in wages and benefits, a NW F/A's at a seniority of 10 years, average pay would be around $24,000.00, down from about $40,000.00... How many people in the general public would stay at their current job if that was to happen to them??

Mtnman, no argument from me on this.  tapedshut 
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
mtnmanmakalu
Posts: 493
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2004 1:47 pm

RE: NWA Mechanics

Sat Aug 27, 2005 1:33 am

Quoting 777PURSER (Reply 7):
I am curious to know what hey want from the FA's now, but I sure hope that is not something unreasonable, now that management feels they can do anything they want to their employees. Best luck to you and everyone at NW.

Thanks for the concern and I see that you have lived it too...

NWA has proposed a 39% pay and benefit cut to the F/A's with lay-offs and outsourcing... The F/A group is not stupid and we all realize that we are going to have to give up some things like ALL the other work groups, but I personally will not do this job for what they are proposing- it's just not worth it to me and my family....

The Mechanics have really screwed it up (IMHO) for ALL the other work groups- the company doesn't care, and they proved they can bust a union and move on.... It's a sad time at most of the Airlines and unless you have been in the Industry for 15 or more years and seen the ups and downs, I just think that you (the general public) wouldn't understand. It used to be a fun, exciting industry to be in, and now it is turning into "just a job"..
Sad, indeed..

mtnman  Sad
I do, I don't, whatever.......
 
AA7573E
Topic Author
Posts: 468
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2003 11:34 am

RE: NWA Mechanics

Sat Aug 27, 2005 1:45 am

Why in the world do you feel sorry for the people on the picket line, aka unemployment line?

They put themselves there. If their leadership (and I use the term figuratively) had a working brain in their heads, they would have been aware of the work that NWA had done in anticipation of the strike, and understood that the impact they were looking for was going to be substantially mitigated, rendering the strike totally impotent. But they went ahead with the strike anyway. Don't feel sorry for them for being on the picket line, feel sorry for them for being so obtuse and blind to reality.
See you up front!
 
777Purser
Posts: 215
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 4:47 pm

RE: NWA Mechanics

Sat Aug 27, 2005 1:48 am

39% paycut IS UNACCEPTABLE! If it amounts way under industry average, that is. If you are going to end up making less than -for example- a Jetblue FA, while prforming more elaborate service (long range flying internationaly, food service, etc) The answer from the membership should be NO. Let them file for bankruptcy and try to get what they can in court. Again..best luck!
 
wingnutmn
Posts: 491
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2004 10:27 am

RE: NWA Mechanics

Sat Aug 27, 2005 1:50 am

I keep seeing this 53% loss of current union members number thrown out there for the Mechanics...Isn't the number 47% loss and 53% retention of current members. I don't have a link or anything to back up my numbers, but if someone has an actual link with numbers on it that would be great.

WingnutMN
Any landing you can walk away from is a good landing! It's a bonus if you can fly the plane again!!
 
AA7573E
Topic Author
Posts: 468
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2003 11:34 am

RE: NWA Mechanics

Sat Aug 27, 2005 1:50 am

Quoting 777PURSER (Reply 12):
Let them file for bankruptcy and try to get what they can in court

You do of course realize that in a BK proceeding, all contracts are voidable, and can be replaced with contracts that are much more pro management, and only have to be approved by the custodians and court.
See you up front!
 
luv2fly
Posts: 11056
Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 2:57 am

RE: NWA Mechanics

Sat Aug 27, 2005 2:04 am

Quoting Mtnmanmakalu (Reply 2):
Commuting

This is a choice you make by not living in the city you are based out of. Simple solution to that problem move to your base city.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
mtnmanmakalu
Posts: 493
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2004 1:47 pm

RE: NWA Mechanics

Sat Aug 27, 2005 2:07 am

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 15):
This is a choice you make by not living in the city you are based out of. Simple solution to that problem move to your base city.

Easy there cowboy!! I was making a point that included MANY factors including commuting!!!

Moving to my base city is not an option for me at this point...

mtnman  crazy 
I do, I don't, whatever.......
 
StevenUhl777
Posts: 3281
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2001 11:02 am

RE: NWA Mechanics

Sat Aug 27, 2005 2:10 am

Quoting Mtnmanmakalu (Reply 6):
With the proposed cuts in wages and benefits, a NW F/A's at a seniority of 10 years, average pay would be around $24,000.00, down from about $40,000.00... How many people in the general public would stay at their current job if that was to happen to them??

Not really worth it to ME anymore if it passed...

I guess $50,000.00 a year to the Mechanics doesn't sound so bad after all...

Wow...that's a HUGE cut...and you're right...it isn't worth it at all. THe mechanics would go from $70,000 to approx. $52,000. Again, a HUGE cut. Good luck to you, and I hope you can find something that you will enjoy and has more stability.

Quoting NWBOS (Reply 8):
Boy, don't hold your breath waiting for the eyes to well up with tears on this board. Before you'll know it, you'll have a hundred people saying if you don't like your job, leave. It's really a travesty to see what is happening to this industry, and the mechanics situation underscores it all. I feel bad for everyone on the picket line and all of my colleagues at NWA that I talk with know that our turn is coming.

...and those hundred people are all aged 13-16 with decades of airline industry management experience!  Yeah sure I'm actually considering leaving this board, as I'm so tired of reading about people who don't understand and don't appreciate and DON'T CARE what's really going on with the employees at each of the airlines. Sure...the airlines stay flying, but at what ultimate cost? These airlines have to think of the "brain drain" once the only people left are making bare-knuckle wages. Then what?

I think these mechanics have known for a long time now what will happen with this strike, and know they'll never be going back. It's no surprise to them. They're doing what they think is right in their minds, drawing a line in the dust as one last protest against cuts and job cuts. It's going to happen, they know that, but they walk away with their own dignity still intact. My respect and well-wishes go to them, not the scumbags like Steenland & Co.
And the winner for best actress is....REESE WITHERSPOON for 'Walk the Line'!!!!!!!!
 
luv2fly
Posts: 11056
Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 2:57 am

RE: NWA Mechanics

Sat Aug 27, 2005 2:17 am

Quoting Mtnmanmakalu (Reply 16):
I was making a point that included MANY factors including commuting!!!

Again if you choice to live in a city other than the one you are based out of, that is one factor you do have control over.

It always surprises me how FA's and pilots are always commenting about how there job requires so much extra time and effort such as commuting when they choice to do this.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
mtnmanmakalu
Posts: 493
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2004 1:47 pm

RE: NWA Mechanics

Sat Aug 27, 2005 2:25 am

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 18):
It always surprises me how FA's and pilots are always commenting about how there job requires so much extra time and effort such as commuting when they choice to do this.

For the record, I NEVER complain about commuting to anybody- to me it is and has always been a part of the job, but it is a factor in STAYING with a company when you are not making the $ that you need. I'm sooo happy that you live where you work and are happy to live there, but one of the perks of working for an Airline is you can live ANYWHERE you choose, which is what I do.. And I don't like complaining commuters either, for the record!!

I really don't understand your negativity when I was just making a point and NOT complaining..... Lighten up, crack open a cold one, and have a great day~!!

mtnman  Smile
I do, I don't, whatever.......
 
KUGN
Posts: 606
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2000 4:36 am

RE: NWA Mechanics

Sat Aug 27, 2005 2:31 am

Quoting StevenUhl777 (Reply 17):
I think these mechanics have known for a long time now what will happen with this strike, and know they'll never be going back. It's no surprise to them. They're doing what they think is right in their minds, drawing a line in the dust as one last protest against cuts and job cuts. It's going to happen, they know that, but they walk away with their own dignity still intact. My respect and well-wishes go to them, not the scumbags like Steenland & Co

Don't forget, their union proclaimed they'd rather see NWA bankrupt than accept the proposed changes. That was the line in the sand they drew.

Noone can really blame NWA management for being prepared. Good readance to AMFA...
 
StevenUhl777
Posts: 3281
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2001 11:02 am

RE: NWA Mechanics

Sat Aug 27, 2005 2:57 am

Quoting KUGN (Reply 20):
Don't forget, their union proclaimed they'd rather see NWA bankrupt than accept the proposed changes. That was the line in the sand they drew.

Noone can really blame NWA management for being prepared.

To AMFA, it won't make a difference. Their wages are going to be slashed and their member numbers cut regardless of it's in Ch. 11 or not. The mechanics understand that. Even if they accepted NW's offer, what's to say that they won't be asked for more when NW files? NW is already saying they'll need $1B.

Given what NW wants, and the way they have arrogantly prepared for this strike instead of negotiating in good faith (not contracts they knew would be turned down anyway) in the last 18 months, tells me perhaps the mechanics might fare better with a third party (bk judge) than letting NW run them into the ground.

At least UA negotiated with AMFA and got a tentative agreement through 2009 or 2010. AA worked their worker groups, and look where they are! Why couldn't NW take that same approach? Guess UA had the luxury of going first.
And the winner for best actress is....REESE WITHERSPOON for 'Walk the Line'!!!!!!!!
 
LMP737
Posts: 4800
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 4:06 pm

RE: NWA Mechanics

Sat Aug 27, 2005 3:01 am

Quoting AA7573E (Thread starter):
NWA did a great job of preparing for the strike, and not caving prior to the strike will likely prove to be one of the best bets they have made in quite some time.

Furthermore, the inept strike is allegedly giving NWA the leverage they want to deepen the cuts against the union, and demand more give backs from the workers. How great is that. Go on strike, and end up giving more away. What fools. IT is good to see that the union leadership really thought this one out! Jackasses.

I hope everyone of the striking mechanics gets a healthy dose of cold reality, when NWA offers full time positions to the temporary workers. Just another example of how greedy unions have their heads firmly planted up their asses.

Are you even remotely familiar with what's going on at NWA? Or are you just repeating something you heard on the news or read on the net. Just in case you did not know but the mechanics at NWA were not asking for raises. So much for them being "greedy". In the past four years half of the mechanics at NWA have been laid off. Of those that remain NWA management wanted to layoff half and the those that remained take a 26% paycut. Now if it had just been paycuts a deal probably would already have been reached. However I don't think that's what the higher ups at NWA wanted.

So I guess the AMT's at NWA have already have had a healthy dose of reality watching half their numbers walked out the door. They must be real "greedy" not wanting to be laid off.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
greasespot
Posts: 2955
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2004 10:48 am

RE: NWA Mechanics

Sat Aug 27, 2005 3:10 am

It is funny how the ones yelling the hardest have never worked for an airline yet they would give their left nut to be able to just touch airplanes on a daily basis...

Until you have worked in the system you have no idea....just like i will not proclaim what a financial analyst should or should not do never having been one....All you can do is spout off on what you have read or heard. But since you are not inside your opinion is really irrelevant..


GS
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
AA7573E
Topic Author
Posts: 468
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2003 11:34 am

RE: NWA Mechanics

Sat Aug 27, 2005 3:16 am

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 22):
Are you even remotely familiar with what's going on at NWA?

Very.

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 22):
Or are you just repeating something you heard on the news or read on the net.

No, I don't think any major news outlets take such a one sided view as I have.

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 22):
Just in case you did not know but the mechanics at NWA were not asking for raises.

Good for you. Read between the lines. Their expectations of what they have to give up, to make the airline profitable and relevant going forward, were mutated by their greed, to get as much as they could regardless of the impact it had on the company.

Does it surprise you that every airline in the world has been outsourcing work and shedding the related costs of that work on their balance sheet. Why is it good when a manufacturing company develops a new process to steamline production and save money, but when an airline finds a way to streamline and save money by outsourcing it is bad? That makes not fucking sense. NWA is not is the business of padding every mechanics life, and giving them something to do. It is a business, and to stay above water, you have to make choices that are in the best interest of the company as a whole, and not in the best interest of every person in the company. It is a reality of any business, at any time, anywhere in the world. Times are tough, and saving money by laying off mechanics and outsourcing their work is something that every airline is doing. But instead of working with management to find a solution that would make layoffs easire (phased in, severance packages, work reassignments) the union strikes. That makes no sense, and demonstrates an an absolute lack of a basic understanding of how businesses are run.

So the appropriate question is, do you even have a clue of what is really going on in this situation, and in the industry as a whole. You should stick to fixing planes and stay out of the business side until you get it.
See you up front!
 
AA7573E
Topic Author
Posts: 468
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2003 11:34 am

RE: NWA Mechanics

Sat Aug 27, 2005 3:20 am

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 23):
It is funny how the ones yelling the hardest have never worked for an airline yet they would give their left nut to be able to just touch airplanes on a daily basis...But since you are not inside your opinion is really irrelevant..

Truely one of the most laughable statements I have read out here. A lot more goes into running an airline than powerplant maintenance. You should know that.

Beyond that, this is not an employees forum, it's open to the public. Assuming you know more about the airline business because you work on power plants is foolish. I will give you that you know more about jets, but who the f*ck cares...I am not talking about jets...I am talking about business.

And for the record, I would not give anything to touch a plane on a daily basis. I enjoy my perspective from the first class cabin thank you.
See you up front!
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: NWA Mechanics

Sat Aug 27, 2005 3:21 am

I think that, even if AMFA would have agreed to the management's proposals, the management would have then kept moving the goal posts, until they reached a situation where the union would be with the back to the wall. With all the expensive preparations NW was going through (hiring replacement staff) etc., they are just out to destroy the union.

I just watched a report about a similar scenario going on with a german newspaper publishing house. The staff already agreed on substantial pay cuts, as demanded by the management, just to keep their jobs. Now the management says that those pay cuts are not enough and wants to lay off everybody, moving the facility to eastern Europe. In this situation, IMO it is a no win situation for the workers. I think the management wanted to lay off the workers anyway, but was just looking for some justification for it. In this case all the workers can do is to make it as expensive as posible for the management.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
LMP737
Posts: 4800
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 4:06 pm

RE: NWA Mechanics

Sat Aug 27, 2005 3:25 am

Quoting AA7573E (Reply 25):
I will give you that you know more about jets, but who the f*ck cares...I am not talking about jets...I am talking about business.



Quoting AA7573E (Thread starter):
Jackasses.

Why is it that you feel the need to express yourself with profanity? One would figure you could find some other way.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
AA7573E
Topic Author
Posts: 468
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2003 11:34 am

RE: NWA Mechanics

Sat Aug 27, 2005 3:27 am

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 27):
Why is it that you feel the need to express yourself with profanity? One would figure you could find some other way.

It's a pretty heated topic pal. Figure it out.
See you up front!
 
ASFlyer
Posts: 1253
Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 1:25 pm

RE: NWA Mechanics

Sat Aug 27, 2005 3:35 am

Quoting StevenUhl777 (Reply 17):
...and those hundred people are all aged 13-16 with decades of airline industry management experience! I'm actually considering leaving this board, as I'm so tired of reading about people who don't understand and don't appreciate and DON'T CARE what's really going on with the employees at each of the airlines. Sure...the airlines stay flying, but at what ultimate cost? These airlines have to think of the "brain drain" once the only people left are making bare-knuckle wages. Then what?

Thank you for saying this. This will be my last post on these boards. I still will look from time to time as there are a very few posts from time to time that are actually constructive and I learn a thing or two. Generally speaking, it's the same couple of posters that I find good information from - it's too bad I couldn't just be on some sort of "mail list" of theirs so I could be spared the irritation of having to wade through posts from people like AA7573E. Someone that has nothing to do with airlines but plenty of opinons of how the people that do should conduct themselves. You're right, this site is full of 13-16 year old airline enthusiasts and some adult back seat airline managers. They don't have anything to do with airlines but would give their left nut to work for one. In the mean time they just dispense their useless advice and opinions here on why the airline employees should work for free and just take whatever the airlines dish out. When I first started reading this site I was impressed by some of the good information I read here. I lurked for a really long time but eventually thought that, as an airline employee, I could contribute here so I paid my money to be able to do so. That was the worst money I've ever wasted - this site isn't for airline employees it's for a bunch of wannabes and whiney passengers to come and spew their bitterness towards the way things are in the industry today.
 
ASFlyer
Posts: 1253
Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 1:25 pm

RE: NWA Mechanics

Sat Aug 27, 2005 3:36 am

Quoting AA7573E (Reply 25):
I enjoy my perspective from the first class cabin thank you

Thank god for free upgrades, huh? Just remember, First Class is only a seat and no indication of the person sitting there. OOOOPS... THIS is my last post.

[Edited 2005-08-26 20:36:52]
 
FlyBoeing
Posts: 835
Joined: Fri May 05, 2000 2:08 am

RE: NWA Mechanics

Sat Aug 27, 2005 3:36 am

My personal belief is that bankruptcy is inevitable and that the wage concessions demanded by management were simply "rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic".

Think of it. Northwest is losing $4 million a day - and that was at the old $40 a barrel oil level. $176 million a year only works out to $500,000 a day - and what can that do to stave off bankruptcy?

The only thing that management is doing is poisoning relationships further with the people they need to run their business. What kind of signal does that send to the rest of the employees if you spend $107 million 18 months beforehand getting ready to replace workers who don't sign on to your contract?

Granted, management works for the shareholders. And if getting some wage concessions meant the difference between bankruptcy and solvency, then I'd be all for management. But it isn't - not at this level. At this point Northwest ought to be thinking of the most humane way to reorganize itself.
 
greasespot
Posts: 2955
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2004 10:48 am

RE: NWA Mechanics

Sat Aug 27, 2005 3:37 am

But alas I never said I know more...That is coming from your mouth...I never once comented that one side was right or wrong...

What I said is people who have never worked in the industry really have no idea what is going on...

Then let me ask this. What is your relationship to NWA? Why are you so upset about this? If you are not working there....Not flying on them? Whay are you so upset. If they fold tomorrow someone will replace them...Is it becasue you may not get to see your beloved red-tailed airplanes anymore?

GS
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
mtnmanmakalu
Posts: 493
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2004 1:47 pm

RE: NWA Mechanics

Sat Aug 27, 2005 3:38 am

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 30):
First Class is only a seat and no indication of the person sitting there.

One of the absolute best quotes I have ever seen on A.net- Priceless!!!

It needs to be on a placard readable from EVERY 1st class seat on the Aircraft!!

mtnman  thumbsup 
I do, I don't, whatever.......
 
LMP737
Posts: 4800
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 4:06 pm

RE: NWA Mechanics

Sat Aug 27, 2005 3:43 am

Quoting AA7573E (Reply 24):
Very.

I don't think you are. Otherwise you would not have said some of the things you did.

Quoting AA7573E (Reply 24):
Good for you. Read between the lines. Their expectations of what they have to give up, to make the airline profitable and relevant going forward, were mutated by their greed, to get as much as they could regardless of the impact it had on the company.

Their "greed". If you mean not wanting to lose your job after fifteen to twenty years of service then I guess they are "greedy". I have found that the people who talk about "union" or "worker" greed are the same ones who will turn around and defend executives getting huge bonuses for just being there. Even when the company is in the dumps.

Quoting AA7573E (Reply 24):
Times are tough, and saving money by laying off mechanics and outsourcing their work is something that every airline is doing.

Every airline? Do you know this for a fact or is it something you heard? Guess what American is actually bringing in outside work. So I guess you statement is not entirely true. People seem to have this idea if you outsource your maintenance your airline will somehow return to profitability. If that were true UAL, US Air, Delta and NWA should be swimming in money by now. Odd don't you think that AA recorded a profit last quarter. Why is it that one company can maintain it's M&E infrastructure and have a profit while another guts thiers and still loses money? Probably has something to do with who's running the company.

Quoting AA7573E (Reply 24):
But instead of working with management to find a solution that would make layoffs easier (phased in, severance packages, work reassignments) the union strikes.

Please elaborate on phased in layoffs, severance packages and work reassignments. Where would they be "reassigned" to? NWA made it quite clear they wanted to dump half.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
LMP737
Posts: 4800
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 4:06 pm

RE: NWA Mechanics

Sat Aug 27, 2005 3:46 am

Quoting AA7573E (Reply 28):
It's a pretty heated topic pal. Figure it out.

Then why do the rest of us behaving ourselves? I honestly don't know why you should get so worked up to the point you start using profanity. Afterall none of this has an affect on you.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
highliner2
Posts: 637
Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2000 1:26 pm

RE: NWA Mechanics

Sat Aug 27, 2005 4:00 am

Let's see here, put yourself in their shoes for a sec, Your company wants to take a quarter of your pay. Take YOUR last paycheck and take 26% off of it. Quite a decent chuck of change isn't it? That is of course is if your lucky enough not to be one those that would be potentially laid off under the new agreement. And just for the record, how much of a paycut are the upper manangement people taking? I mean with all these employee concessions, SURELY their doing the right thing and taking something out of their checks as well right? Wait. What? They're not? Hmm...so let's see, they want to lay off half the mechanics, take 26% away from the rest and of course keep their salaries as is? Yeah, your right...these stupid mechanics have no reason to be upset and no right to strike...
Go Cubs!
 
AA7573E
Topic Author
Posts: 468
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2003 11:34 am

RE: NWA Mechanics

Sat Aug 27, 2005 4:19 am

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 34):
Their "greed". If you mean not wanting to lose your job after fifteen to twenty years of service then I guess they are "greedy". I have found that the people who talk about "union" or "worker" greed are the same ones who will turn around and defend executives getting huge bonuses for just being there. Even when the company is in the dumps.

What do executive bonuses have to do with anything. I have not read the 10K recently, do you know what that is, but I would be willing to be there are not going to be any big bonuses this year. Greed is taking the picket line, and the unemployment line, over taking a 26% cut. Last time I checked, 74% was better than 0%.

And again, you have not touched on the key point. NWA is a business that looks out for the bottom line, not everyone's bottom line. Running a business means you have to make some very tough choices, that in some cases cause people financial harm. Is it good, no. Do they want to, no...but to whom are they ultimately responsible? Shareholders, and equity investors. Not the grease monkey putting air in tires, in between rounds of ramp golf. It is business, not social work.

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 34):
People seem to have this idea if you outsource your maintenance your airline will somehow return to profitability.

Anyone who has that idea is a fool. But conversely, anyone who can not acknowledge the benefit of shedding maintenance costs, and the human capital required to do the maintenance, is a fool as well. When you get down to it, it is not the cost of maintaining the airplane, it is the cost of paying the person to maintain the airplane. IF you can't see that getting rid of those costs helps the bottom line, when your maintenance group is not a profit center, than you are dumber than your posts make you seem.

SOME airlines do have profit center operations, in regards to maintenance and overhaul work. NWA is CLEARLY not one of those airlines. AA is doing work on F100s to be sent overseas. Good for them. How the F does that apply to NWA?

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 34):
Please elaborate on phased in layoffs, severance packages and work reassignments. Where would they be "reassigned" to? NWA made it quite clear they wanted to dump half.

A phased in layoff means everyone does not get the boot on the same day. Assistance and severance packages would be tapered benefits, tapered travel benefits, and re-employment assistance - all of which have been standard at major airlines with mass layoffs. Do they give you a big bag of money on your way out the door? No - of course not, what do you think they are run by unions? Would they have provided assistance and done what they could to make the layoff easier..yes. But now, they have their cake and eat it to. They can FIRE them all and tell them to hit the road. PERFECT!
See you up front!
 
AA7573E
Topic Author
Posts: 468
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2003 11:34 am

RE: NWA Mechanics

Sat Aug 27, 2005 4:20 am

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 35):
Then why do the rest of us behaving ourselves? I honestly don't know why you should get so worked up to the point you start using profanity. Afterall none of this has an affect on you.

My friend you have no idea what affects me. If you can't take the heat get out of the kitchen. Seriously. Add something here. You used to have an opinion.

[Edited 2005-08-26 21:21:07]
See you up front!
 
KUGN
Posts: 606
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2000 4:36 am

RE: NWA Mechanics

Sat Aug 27, 2005 4:21 am

Wage cuts and layoffs have happened in other industries, when the market conditions change. Ask union/non-union employees who experienced it, and lived on. Every job is temporary, there is no such thing as "having right to work"...
 
AA7573E
Topic Author
Posts: 468
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2003 11:34 am

RE: NWA Mechanics

Sat Aug 27, 2005 4:31 am

Quoting KUGN (Reply 39):
Wage cuts and layoffs have happened in other industries, when the market conditions change. Ask union/non-union employees who experienced it, and lived on. Every job is temporary, there is no such thing as "having right to work"...

Very well said. But people in the airline business have a sense of entitlement that does not seem to be as prevelant in other industries.
See you up front!
 
dl757md
Posts: 1482
Joined: Mon May 24, 2004 9:32 am

RE: NWA Mechanics

Sat Aug 27, 2005 4:40 am

Quoting AA7573E (Reply 24):
Times are tough, and saving money by laying off mechanics and outsourcing their work is something that every airline is doing.

While they do outsource MX, WN hasn't laid off any of their highest paid in the U.S. pax airline industry AMFA mechs that I'm aware of. So if WN can make money while realizing the value of a quality mech, why can't NW? Oh yeah, NW has inept overly compensated management and higher paid pilots than at WN.


Quoting AA7573E (Reply 24):
Why is it good when a manufacturing company develops a new process to steamline production and save money, but when an airline finds a way to streamline and save money by outsourcing it is bad?

Because in this process as ity relates to manufacturing we are moving to a more disposable world. People don't care anymore about how long something lasts because they throw it away and get a new one when it breaks. It's no big deal when you have to buy a new vacuum cleaner every couple of years because it doesn't last longer than that usually, and because of the way the manufacturing and distribution chain is set up, it's more expensive to repair than to replace. It also caters to the fad driven styles that the marketing world loves to push on us. My wife wants to buy new plates at Super Target every season. Williams and Sonoma has Kitchen Aid mixers in new different seasonal colors every season. The whole point is you can streamline (cut corners) because quality doesn't matter. People don't care anymore that consumer products don't last.

Aircraft don't work particularly well with this mentality. Actually they fall apart. Not overnight. It's an incremental thing. You can't cut corners(streamline). As things are deferred, ignored, or fixed incorrectly the potential for failure increases. That is why ETOPS planes are maintained to a different standard - there needs to be assurances that they are more reliable. Quality MX is needed to keep an aircraft flying for 20+years. In the case of the NWs' DC-9s 30+years. If you can't figure out that you have to pay for that quality then you are out of touch with reality. I mean c'mon, you're profile says your in commercial mortgage backed securities - structured finance. Did you make as much the your first year as you will this year? Barring some economic anomaly, probably not. Will you agree that experience counts for something monetarily? I'm not talking entitlement. I'm talking about paying a person for their experience - a retention wage if you will. Retention bonuses after all are all the rage with the execs. The AMFA mechs feel that the company is not paying them enough of a retention wage SO they are walking knowing full well that they probably won't be going back but also that they won't have a very difficult time finding a higher paying lower responsibility job elsewhere. They'll leave the MX of the plane you fly on to the scabs who after a couple years will leave for better jobs armed with the experience they gained at NW. It happens all the time here at Delta with our engineers. They leave after 2 years and get jobs making twice as much as they could at Delta. The body of knowledge lost when the AMFA mechs left will never be rebuilt. Quality WILL suffer. You'll be able to fly NY-LA $199 round trip. Somebody will die because of a crash caused by faulty MX. But I guess that's OK with you.

Dl757Md
757 Most beautiful airliner in the sky!
 
bobnwa
Posts: 4459
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2000 12:10 am

RE: NWA Mechanics

Sat Aug 27, 2005 4:47 am

Quoting Highliner2 (Reply 36):
And just for the record, how much of a paycut are the upper manangement people taking? I mean with all these employee concessions, SURELY their doing the right thing and taking something out of their checks as well right? Wait. What? They're not? Hmm...

Highliner2,

Do you really believe that all management at Northwest have not taken significant paycuts. These paycuts were announced last year are are in effect for all management and all non-contract workers. The pilots have also taken significant cuts. Please look it up before before your next pontification.
 
AA7573E
Topic Author
Posts: 468
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2003 11:34 am

RE: NWA Mechanics

Sat Aug 27, 2005 5:15 am

Quoting Dl757md (Reply 41):
The whole point is you can streamline (cut corners) because quality doesn't matter. People don't care anymore that consumer products don't last.

Hey pal. Nobody is saying to cut corners, except for you. We are only suggesting that by cutting the MX work out of their structure, NWA streamlines their operations, saves money, and promotes the bottome line. Any 3rd pary outsourced MX provider is obviously going to be licensed, and provide the same, if not better service, than the inhouse guys at NWA. They are too busy working on their golf swing on the ramp.

Call a spade a spade. You cry and whine when an improvement to the company is achieved through laying off employees to fatten the bottom line, but you refuse to acknowledge that NWA is not a social service provider, it is a busines, and business are bottom line driven. As was said earlier, there is no right to work, and no job is guaranteed.
See you up front!
 
777Purser
Posts: 215
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 4:47 pm

RE: NWA Mechanics

Sat Aug 27, 2005 5:16 am

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 29):
this site isn't for airline employees it's for a bunch of wannabes and whiney passengers to come and spew their bitterness towards the way things are in the industry today.

AMEN. These opinionated wannabes are just so irritating to the real airline people in this forum.

In respect to what someone was saying about bankruptcy being even more damaging for the labor groups...I would be less afraid of bankruptcy court than of NWA management. While we have managed to keep our pensions -so far- United FA's on bankruptcy seem to have given less than us in several aspects. Yes, contracts can be void in bankruptcy, but no court would allow concessions well below industry average.

If the bullies at NWA management demands from FA's are unreasonable, if they are not willing to negotiate in good faith and keep intimidating the membership and training SCABS... I hope they give them a big NO. Then take it from there. Again, my support to the labor groups in NW and my solidarity with their strugle to keep their jobs and their dignity.
 
dl757md
Posts: 1482
Joined: Mon May 24, 2004 9:32 am

RE: NWA Mechanics

Sat Aug 27, 2005 5:26 am

Quoting AA7573E (Reply 37):
I have not read the 10K recently, do you know what that is

MY my, you ARE full of yourself aren't you. You forget that most if not all airline employees are shareholders in their companies. Most of whom know what a SEC 10K annual report form is and you'd be surprised that almost all of those know how to read it.

Quoting AA7573E (Reply 37):
74% was better than 0%

For a financial genius you aren't very good with numbers are you.

100%-53%X74%=34.78%

Oh that's right you business types have a knack for leaving out numbers when it suits you. See Enron, Worldcom, etc.

Quoting AA7573E (Reply 24):
were mutated by their greed

Pot to kettle. Pot to kettle......

Here's a comprehensive list of corporate greed.
About the list:
The point of the list contained in this report, The Top 100 Corporate Criminals of the Decade -- is to focus public attention on a wave of corporate criminality that has swamped prosecutors offices around the country,

You can call them greedy all you want but to millions of Americans know you business people are the greedy ones. You break the laws to enrich yourselves to the tune of millions even billions and get a slap on the wrist if anything. Yet you cry when a group of hard WORKING individuals takes a stand for their livelihoods and principle. Something you don't have the guts to understand let alone do.

Dl757Md
757 Most beautiful airliner in the sky!
 
mtnmanmakalu
Posts: 493
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2004 1:47 pm

RE: NWA Mechanics

Sat Aug 27, 2005 5:27 am

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 29):
That was the worst money I've ever wasted - this site isn't for airline employees it's for a bunch of wannabes and whiney passengers to come and spew their bitterness towards the way things are in the industry today.

Spot on Brother!!

I think I will do the same as you since this site is not fun anymore- Just like the Airline industry as a whole....

mtnman  tombstone 
I do, I don't, whatever.......
 
dl757md
Posts: 1482
Joined: Mon May 24, 2004 9:32 am

RE: NWA Mechanics

Sat Aug 27, 2005 5:30 am

Quoting AA7573E (Reply 43):
Any 3rd pary outsourced MX provider is obviously going to be licensed, and provide the same, if not better service, than the inhouse guys at NWA.

And you know this how?

Quoting AA7573E (Reply 43):
They are too busy working on their golf swing on the ramp.

There you go spouting off lies. It's been established in another thread that he was a ramp worker aka bagsmasher not a mechanic.

Dl757Md
757 Most beautiful airliner in the sky!
 
greasespot
Posts: 2955
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2004 10:48 am

RE: NWA Mechanics

Sat Aug 27, 2005 5:31 am

I am still waiting to hear why since you do not work for an airline, are part of an airline, do not work in the aviation business why this is such big deal for you....Does being able to ride on a red tail mean that much to you?

It is attitudes like that that are ruining the business world. It is NOT all about the bottom line. There is and used to be compasion for others. Yes people were laid off before. But the outright hatred and contempt for a group on strik that really does not impact your life as you can fly on any other carrier is really scary.

I guess being selfish and arrogant is the new american way. There was a time when the american way was helping people arround. It was a community rallying arround someone who needs it...Corporations do not need to be so blindly beholden to the "bottom line" that they lose any compassion that they may have.

I believe the effects of outsourcing whether it is offshore or not is going to cripple the economy in a way that is worse than the depression...With all the jobs in China or India what if a trade war erupts...or a NOT so friendly Gov't is installed...

I am done with this thread. Dealing with assholes is just not worth my time. They are not in my life and therefore by responding to them I am only encouraging them.

GS

GS
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
AA7573E
Topic Author
Posts: 468
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2003 11:34 am

RE: NWA Mechanics

Sat Aug 27, 2005 5:36 am

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 48):
I am still waiting to hear why since you do not work for an airline, are part of an airline, do not work in the aviation business why this is such big deal for you....Does being able to ride on a red tail mean that much to you?

I never fly NWA, and don't plan on it. But I fully support their efforts to shoot down the mechanics, and put them in their place. You have a warped sense of business, and still seem to think that they are providers of social services. They are not. And you know it, if you have ever had a job.

Its a good thing you are done with this thread, because your whining about companies not giving a damn about the workers is tired. The 1850's called...they want their mantra back. Stick to something you know.
See you up front!

Who is online