Bridogger6
Topic Author
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Why Do F/A's Make More Than CSR's?

Sat Aug 27, 2005 7:57 am

So, why do flight attendants make a significant larger amount of money (about $10 more on avg) than Customer Service Representatives?

Let's take a look at the two jobs:

Flight Attendant: This job does not require a higher level of education than high school... they are responsible for the overall safety of the cabin, responsible for making sure the aircraft if ready for departure, for welcoming passengers on board, serving drinks (food if the pax are lucky), preparing cabin for landing (cleaning up and making sure everyone is seated safely), and smiling. Hmm.. seems pretty basic.

CSR's: These people also don't require a high level of education and the training period is just two weeks shorter than the training period for that of a flight attendant as they get most of their real training out on the line. A CSR must learn all the intricacies and flukes of their airlines's computer system, deal with brand new situations they have never experience before and make it work with their res system, deal with angry passengers for missed flights, delays, cancellations and explain to them every little policy of the airline including overweight bags, enforce carry-on limits, and check in times. Solicit for volunteers on oversold flights and deal with denied boarding situations. Get planes boarded and make sure the door to the plane is closed and that the jetway is pulled back on time, escort wheelchair bound passengers including aisle chairs onto and off the planes. Rebook passengers who are late, misconnections, delays. Handle ticketing and issue tickets, deal with money and accounting... CSR's are basically the ones on the front line the ones that all passengers deal with for any airline related inquiries at the airport.

Ok, so maybe I am a bit biased as a CSR but watching flight attendants (who are more often than not bitter toward the CSR who is rushing them trying to get the flight out on time) I wonder why the flight attendants always act so arrogant like they do so much more than the CSR (is this an issue for you other CSR's at other airlines?) when the CSR has his or her neck on the line when a plane is late, the flight attendants usually tend to take their times even when a quick turn is needed. Now, CSR's don't have the responsibility to keep a plane's cabin safe while in flight, but how often are emergency procedures actually used? The flight attendant is required to have the knowledge, so what? The CSR's training is slightly shorter, usually more around five weeks as opposed to seven weeks, but that is only because they CSR is able to have a trial and error process to learn new things constantly, the flight attendant just has a set of basics to know, but they don't have the opportunity for trial and error.

So anyway, I have presented the case as I see it, hopefully that wasn't too much babbling. Now, why do you think flight attendants get paid so much more than us CSR's? Not complaining, but I've never understood it.

Oh and I mean no ill will toward flight attendants (even with my arrogant comment; not all, but a good number really DO act that way) so please take no offense and your input is requested as well.  Smile
 
unitedgirlie
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RE: Why Do F/A's Make More Than CSR's?

Sat Aug 27, 2005 8:03 am

good point...us csr's deserve way more because at the end of our shift we dont often get a few days in a nice location either!!

I was looking at the web site for new starters csr's in america and was shocked at the low rate. Someone said in the usa they get paid more but they sure dont going by the web site and our shift pay looks better too  Smile

hey ho we still do save £1000's travelling in 1st class for approx £150 return  Smile so when people say our job isnt great we still get this and half price hotels something they dont  Wink
 
flypdx
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RE: Why Do F/A's Make More Than CSR's?

Sat Aug 27, 2005 8:08 am

I have a question as far as CSRs go. Is there anything to move up to as a CSR within an airline? Also is overtime common for CSRs? I've been seeing a lot about rampers working overtime. Also, what is the average pay?

Thanks!
 
N323ER
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RE: Why Do F/A's Make More Than CSR's?

Sat Aug 27, 2005 8:13 am

One big reason is that F/A's have to know how to perform first aid and evacuate an a/c. I know when I was a CSR I didn't need to know first aid and I didn't have to know how to evacaute pax from the terminal


RYAN

BWIOPS
RYAN SCAIFE
 
unitedgirlie
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RE: Why Do F/A's Make More Than CSR's?

Sat Aug 27, 2005 8:16 am

at our airline you start as a csr, then you can be a specialist (is in charge of the general check in or gate ie a supervisor) then service director who is in charge of making sure that flight goes etc ie he is say the manager and then there is a duty manager who doesnt deal on a day to day basis with the nitty gritty ie the passengers and planes but keeps everything going ie yell at you for lates and sick times and sort out other things etc.

ps always overtime going at our place in fact lots work part time and do overtime when they need it only. We always have huge lists for overtime and often work overtime say if a flight is late to depart we keep check in open so you may be asked to do that etc
 
unitedgirlie
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RE: Why Do F/A's Make More Than CSR's?

Sat Aug 27, 2005 8:18 am

ps all that extra money and they still expect passengers to open the door in an emergency  Wink maybe they will break a nail...only kidding honest!
 
unitedgirlie
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RE: Why Do F/A's Make More Than CSR's?

Sat Aug 27, 2005 8:18 am

ooo pps

I know why they make the extra its a make up bonus...al that lipstick and foundation to buy!
 
gman3
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RE: Why Do F/A's Make More Than CSR's?

Sat Aug 27, 2005 8:19 am

Many reasons probably exist.
One off hand.... You have to also factor in our time away from home.. When we are on a layover we are away from home, still somewhat at mercy of the company. Therefore, our duty rig may be a little more complicated than a CSRs.
I alwways thought that CSRs are grossly underpaid. Please do not group all flight attendants in with your generliziation about being arrogant towards CSRS. This is simply not true in many cases. I, for one, always work with the CSRs in order for them to do their job. I have no animosity whatsoever. I feel badly many times for the way the general public treats them sometimes.
 
SHUPirate1
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RE: Why Do F/A's Make More Than CSR's?

Sat Aug 27, 2005 8:20 am

If a Flight Attendant messes up, it can mean death for the passengers on board.

If a Customer Service Representative messes up, there isn't a single passenger who is going to die because of it, unless the passenger has a high blood pressure to begin with.

As somebody who's wanted to become a Customer Service Representative, I'd have no problem with a flight attendant making more than a CSR.
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
Gilligan
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RE: Why Do F/A's Make More Than CSR's?

Sat Aug 27, 2005 8:23 am

I think the fa's job might be a little more involved than you put down. Also, when is the last time the concourse crashed and killed you?
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
unitedgirlie
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RE: Why Do F/A's Make More Than CSR's?

Sat Aug 27, 2005 8:24 am

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 8):
If a Customer Service Representative messes up, there isn't a single passenger who is going to die because of it, unless the passenger has a high blood pressure to begin with.

other than if we dont check hand baggage as we should and a heavy case falls on someones head and kills them or we seat an UM next to a window with a man sat next to him who may sexually abuse him when the lights go down and other pax are asleep etc

yep sad as it is that has happened and there are varying things we do have to think about in many situations.

I thought FA's got an allowance for being overseas to compensate for being away from home? least it used to be.
 
SHUPirate1
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RE: Why Do F/A's Make More Than CSR's?

Sat Aug 27, 2005 8:25 am

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 9):
Also, when is the last time the concourse crashed and killed you?

Charles De Gaulle 2E!

Signed,

The American contingent of a.net!  Silly
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
CO767FA
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RE: Why Do F/A's Make More Than CSR's?

Sat Aug 27, 2005 8:25 am

Quoting Bridogger6 (Thread starter):
So, why do flight attendants make a significant larger amount of money (about $10 more on avg) than Customer Service Representatives?

How are you calculating that? F/A's don't get paid "until the wheels of the a/c move". So when the a/c is at the gate with a delay...we aren't getting paid. Or when we arrive at the airport 1-1.5 hours prior to departure....we aren't getting paid. When the a/c is boarding...we aren't getting paid.

On US holidays, like Christmas, Thanksgiving, New Years Eve and many agents are going home to loved ones (after their shift), we get to spend the holiday in a city away from our families. When our kids are in a school play, playing a sport or having a parent/teacher night; F/A's are often in another city (same with Pilots).

You simply have a case of the "grass is greener over there" mentality. Both jobs are difficult and require more skill than they are given credit for.
 
BigGSFO
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RE: Why Do F/A's Make More Than CSR's?

Sat Aug 27, 2005 8:26 am

I think you have a narrow view of what a flight attendant actually does. If I read your synopsis right, you have drastically marginalized their in-flight safety responsibilities. The recent AF crash in YYZ and the quickness of the f/a's in evacuating that entire aircraft in seconds should be testament to the value of their training. There are many other stories of f/a's enforcing safety - from Uli Deriksen (sp?) to 09/11 - to the countless that go unnoticed. If anything, IMO, they are underpaid.

If the truth be told, they are much more responsible for the customer service experience than a CSR. Remember they have the passenger for a lot longer than a CSR - in fact, a lot of travelers don't even need a CSR with automated check-in's. They deal with the unruly and drunk passengers and don't have the luxury of calling airport security. They also don't get to drive home every night after a long day's work.

Now I am not an f/a however I travel extensively for business. My experience with an airline has much more to do with in-flight and not that on the ground.
 
unitedgirlie
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RE: Why Do F/A's Make More Than CSR's?

Sat Aug 27, 2005 8:27 am

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 9):
I think the fa's job might be a little more involved than you put down. Also, when is the last time the concourse crashed and killed you?

working at heathrow T3 it is an everyday worry the whole place is mended with baggage roll I swear to god. All the boarding pass machines and bag tag printers have varying bits of bag roll on it plus doors that wont shut are always bag tag rolled up....it's a bit of a standing joke at the moment.

Annoys me BAA want to build new terminals and new runways, i swear they keep the old ones so bad to keep queues up to convince people new ones are needed when some of the problems could be solved by getting the old ones mended and working better.
 
monkeyboi
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RE: Why Do F/A's Make More Than CSR's?

Sat Aug 27, 2005 8:30 am

I don't know about airlines outside the UK, but I think if you checked the BASIC salary for a F/A or CSR for BA a CSR salary is higher.

The difference is though, the F/A's are paid allowences which represent expenses incurred 'down route'.. These allowences are usually much higher than the expenses we actually incur and the allowences, at BA anyway, makes up about 70% of our 'take home' monthly salary.

The allowences include Meal Allowence (up to GBP100.00 per day away, depending on the city), payment for long range flights (up to GBP299.00 per sector), 'Destination Payments; (for flying to 'un-popular' cities) at around GBP70.00.

[Edited 2005-08-27 01:34:43]
 
Gilligan
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RE: Why Do F/A's Make More Than CSR's?

Sat Aug 27, 2005 8:31 am

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 11):
Charles De Gaulle 2E!

Um, how many csr's died in that accident?
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
ASFlyer
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RE: Why Do F/A's Make More Than CSR's?

Sat Aug 27, 2005 8:31 am

As a F/A for another airline, not HP, I can only speak to my airline. Though I believe that most are somewhat comparable.

Starting F/A's at AS make around 15,000 per year to start. Some airlines start at more, some at less, but all around the same thing. You can add the per diem to that, if you like, which would bring it up to around 18000 or so per year, but the per diem is expense money and you certainly do spend money having to eat out for many of your meals. So, let's say that you take 18,000 per year and divide that by 56 weeks, then divide that by 40 hours per week. That equals about 8.04 per hour. Most CSA's at my airline start at around $10 per hour I believe. So, right out of the gate, CSR's are making a little more than a starting F/A.

As for responsibility. F/A's are trained on every aspect of safety and security. If someone passes out, we are trained how to revive and care for that person. If someone has a heart attack, we are trained on how to resuscitate that person. We are trained on how to deal with drunk passengers (that the CSR's have let stagger down the jetway to the plane), we are trained on how to extinguish a fire inflight should one occur, we are trained on how to evacuate a full plane in 90 seconds (just like the Air France F/A's did in YYZ recently). We also must attend a recurrent training class each year and pass a test in order to keep our jobs, which CSR's are not required to do. Granted, most flights are uneventful and our significant emergency and first aid training never comes into play, but when it does I can assure you that the folks on board would most likely conclude that we are worth whatever we make and more.

Having said all that, I absolutely agree that CSR's are not paid enough. You all take the brunt of passenger abuse at the ticket counters and gates (though you can call the police to come and assist if it gets too wild, we can not). The CSR job is not one that I envy. I think you all work very hard and deserve more. I know there is a perception that F/A's view themselves as "better than the agents". It's been like that at both airlines I've worked for. In a nutshell, we both have very important, very different jobs to do. Neither is more important than another. It would be beneficial to be able to work out a program where we could all walk a week in each other's shoes to see what we do. Then, maybe we F/A's would understand why you CSR's are trying to board a filthy plane that the cleaners haven't yet been to, and why you are grabbing the door and trying to close it before the Captain has given the go ahead. Conversely, you might understand why we are trying to clean the plane rather than help you get a wheelchair passenger on board, or why we tell you not to close the door yet because the overhead bins are not closed.

I also wanted to add that your perception that we enjoy time off in sunny places is only just a little right. What about the 20 hour layover in Fairbanks, Alaska in January or the 10 hour layover in Miami in January, or the 14 hour day then a 9 hour layover (from block to block, so about 6 hours of sleep) then another 14 hour day? 28 hour layover in Boise, ID or a 10 hour layover in San Diego. The perception that all we do is fly from place to place enjoying the city and the beaches and nightlife is so unfounded. Imagine how you might feel after a 14 hour day of being beaten up by the passengers, knowing you only had about 6 hours to sleep before you had to do it all over again - would you want to dress up and go out for a night on the town?

Hope some of this helps - I think we all work very hard for our money.

[Edited 2005-08-27 01:41:00]
 
unitedgirlie
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RE: Why Do F/A's Make More Than CSR's?

Sat Aug 27, 2005 8:33 am

monkeyboi, yes thats how BA works and what I was thinking of, however united work in other ways and we have had this discussion on how bad it is the way they are paid etc at work.
 
Bridogger6
Topic Author
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RE: Why Do F/A's Make More Than CSR's?

Sat Aug 27, 2005 8:37 am

Perhaps there is a bit more to the FA job than I put down, but remember, I am a bit biased. But four specific instances I can recall of speaking to four CSR's who have transfered to in flight, they have ALL told me that being an FA is much easier than being a CSR... that is something that I forgot to mention. Also, the FA's are not necessarily stuck with the passengers longer than the CSR.

There are delays in which passengers get angry and who has to deal with it? The CSR! Once a passenger is on a plane for a long haul, they understand they are going to be on the plane a long time so the situation is less severe and it's not like the passenger is going to get angry because the plane isn't flying fast enough.

As far as holiday pay goes, yes agents do get to go home at the end of the night, but really, what good is it when Christmas morning is over? Yes, flight attendants do spend time away from home but they are getting paid, albeit minimally for their time away and for their time away they get to have longer periods than CSR's in between shifts.

CSR's come into almost every single day, Flight attendants have a few days off at a time so that sort of makes up for that. As far as not getting paid until the door is close you DO get your comp pay, which again isn't much but it IS something. CSR's get paid so little they can work 15 hour days and end up with only 800 bucks at the end of the two weeks (I speak from experience). Also, there is mandatory overtime which we are often subject too when working at night especially when storms come in, or when a lot of flights are delayed all at once for various reasons... so again, I am not asking for more pay as a CSR necessarily, but I still don't understand why the payscales don't match moreso.
 
FutureFO
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RE: Why Do F/A's Make More Than CSR's?

Sat Aug 27, 2005 8:41 am

We actually do not make more than CSR's in the grand scheme of things. We do not see any real money until the aircraft moves under its own power until engine shut down at the destination. Per Diem is a pittance for sitting on the ground.


Sean from MCO and MKE
I Don't know where I am anymore
 
ASFlyer
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RE: Why Do F/A's Make More Than CSR's?

Sat Aug 27, 2005 8:45 am

I'm not denying that you aren't paid enough, or that your job is easy. Both jobs have challenges, albeit different ones. I believe the F/A job is a bit easier on a normal basis, but tell that to the F/A's that are preparing their cabin for an emergency landing - they'de probably give anything to be on the ground, safe and sound. Tell that to the F/A's that have been killed in 4 recent crashes - I imagine their families would have liked for them to be agents, rather than crew members on board. You could also point out that the F/A's were the first people killed on 9/11. It's all in how you look at it.
 
Bridogger6
Topic Author
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RE: Why Do F/A's Make More Than CSR's?

Sat Aug 27, 2005 8:46 am

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 17):
That equals about 8.04 per hour. Most CSA's at my airline start at around $10 per hour I believe.

Haha ok my airline starts significantly less as far as CSR pay, but breaking it down like that really does help my understanding thank you for that tidbit.

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 17):
We are trained on how to deal with drunk passengers (that the CSR's have let stagger down the jetway to the plane),

Ha! That is exactly the attitude I'm talking about! Haha let us do our job and we'll let you do yours. :-P lol just giving you a hard time.

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 17):
We also must attend a recurrent training class each year and pass a test in order to keep our jobs, which CSR's are not required to do.

Actually, at least at HP, CSR's are currently attending recurrent training, usually more than once a year and we are given periodic written tests.

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 17):
It would be beneficial to be able to work out a program where we could all walk a week in each other's shoes to see what we do.

This is such a great idea. I know and have heard that WN does this, but it doesn't include the inflight positions. I always wish HP had the money to cross train and have the CSR's and Rampers, and FA's all crosstrained so they could be assigned to any given postion during a certain week... that would be a lot of fun. I guess the airline is just too big now and it's too expensive to do things they way they once did.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Why Do F/A's Make More Than CSR's?

Sat Aug 27, 2005 8:49 am

Great how the managements of the airlines succeed in driving wedges beween the different work groups, so that we start fighting in between ourselves.
Face it:
Without pilots the planes wouldn't fly, the same without mechanics.
Without F/As and CSRs they would have to fly empty.
Without loaders and ground handlers the baggage wouldn't fly.
Without cleaners the plane would be dirty and the passengers would refuse to fly with the airline.

In an airline operation EVERYBODY is necessary.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
ASFlyer
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RE: Why Do F/A's Make More Than CSR's?

Sat Aug 27, 2005 8:53 am

Quoting Bridogger6 (Reply 22):
Actually, at least at HP, CSR's are currently attending recurrent training, usually more than once a year and we are given periodic written tests

Perhaps, but the FAA doesn't require that they fire you if don't pass them. Or do they? To be honest, I don't think they do, but I don't know for sure. I do know that if the F/A doesn't pass recurrent training they are fired as mandated by the FAA.
 
BigGSFO
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RE: Why Do F/A's Make More Than CSR's?

Sat Aug 27, 2005 8:58 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 23):
Without F/As and CSRs they would have to fly empty

Without F/A's there would be no flying at all. FAA requires F/A's to acheive a certain degree of training before they can go to work or stay current. Airlines have been grounded during F/A stikes. Planes will fly however without CSR's. NW is flying with the mechanics on strike and let's face it, the expertise of a mechanic far outweighs that of a CSR. If NW can implement replacement workers in a short time for jobs requiring signficant mechanical experience, they can replace stirking CSR's in quicker time.

I am not diminishing the value of a CSR because they play a vital role in the operation of an airline. However the point of this thread is to discuss why F/A's make more than CSR's and in the grand scheme of things, they should. Both workgroups are underpaid, however F/A's duties warrant, at least in theory, a higher salary.
 
AF Cabin Crew
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RE: Why Do F/A's Make More Than CSR's?

Sat Aug 27, 2005 9:03 am

Ia Orana all !!!

When I joined Air France as a Cabin Attendant nearly 10 years ago, part of our initial training was to spend 1 month on the ground with our CSR's.
I truly enjoyed my time there because it showed me what happens on the ground before I greet the passengers on the plane. I had to deal with the problems the CSR's had to like checking in the SABENA flight to BRU and onwards to Africa where passengers threaten the agents, that they would kill them if they were to pay any excess bags, the police was actually standing there because we had to call them so many times, I also checked in a flight to TLV in a ground level room with no heating in december, it was freezing cold, the customers went thru a hell of a lot of safety procedures etc... Yet these time I spent with each screaming individual was what ? 30 minutes top, in most cases 15 minutes.

Yet I had the opportunity to get the police if I wanted and they could be next to me in a matter of minutes, If there was a medical emergency I knew I just had to dial a phone number and I wouldn't have to deliver that baby or ressucitate an elderly between 2 seats. I also knew that if a bag was left unattended in the terminal and it was a bomb scare I could walk out of the terminal building and walk as far as I can...

Now that I am in that plane spending up to 15 hours with the irrate customer that screamed at the csr because he didn't have a window seat, I know that both jobs are difficult but a flight attendant can't walk off the plane if there's a bomb in it, a flight attendant can't call the police when air rage is happening in the cabin and that flight attendant will have to try and calm down the passengers and if it is not possible it is that same flight attendant that will have to handcuff the passenger. As a flight attendant I know that if someone has a heart attack I can't wait for the ambulance, I'll have to start the CPR and the mouth to mouth ressucitation, that mother will deliver the baby with my help because there won't be enough time to land the plane to get to a hospital.
And serving food, yes it is easy just switch on the oven and wait for it... Yet you have to know what you serve, how it is prepared, what wine goes with it who has requested a Kosher meal, what to do f there isn't any vegeterian food for the lady who says she ordered it...

What do we have to do when the IFE doesn't work, who tries to repair the broken foot rest on seat 1B ?

Our job doesn't consist of only going to Tahiti and snorkling or visiting the Forbidden city in Beijing, or putting on nail polish and handling the pa's to point out emergency exits ! Because most of the time when we get there we are exhausted and the only thing we are looking for is a shower to get rid of a young UM's vomit and a nice comfortable bed...

Consider also the fact that you can eat at home and cook yourself a nice meal, we don't have this facility whether in Teheran or Caracas. That's why we are paid meal allowances, just to be able to go to a restaurant or have room service. I'm not complaining about it by the way but I wish I could save all that money !

Take into account that CSR's have to know the intricacies of the computer and reservation programs and guess what ? We have to learn everything about the 747-400, 777-200/300 and Airbus A343/332 intricacies too ! It's not that simple !

I know for a fact that both jobs are not easy but do not under estimate ours please. Thank you...

Happy Flying !

[Edited 2005-08-27 02:19:14]

[Edited 2005-08-27 02:37:46]
Ia Maitai to tatou tere !
 
AA767400
Posts: 1892
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RE: Why Do F/A's Make More Than CSR's?

Sat Aug 27, 2005 9:43 am

Quoting Bridogger6 (Reply 19):
I am a bit biased.

If you are biased then your opinions are too.

Quoting Bridogger6 (Reply 19):
But four specific instances I can recall of speaking to four CSR's who have transfered to in flight, they have ALL told me that being an FA is much easier than being a CSR

Please, the grass is always greener on the other side. Until YOU have worked in both positions you will never know the truth.

Quoting Bridogger6 (Reply 19):
passengers get angry and who has to deal with it?

Both have to deal with it. If the flight time is 2 hours then the CSR is going to have to deal with it. Now if the flight is a 15 hour flight most likely than not the Flight Crew is going to have to deal with them for a longer period of time.

Quoting Bridogger6 (Reply 19):
it's not like the passenger is going to get angry because the plane isn't flying fast enough.

Walk a mile in my shoes. Once a passenger gets on board they will complain about their connections,compensations,accommodations once there, etc,etc,.

In conclusion, You do have a bias distorted view about Flight Attendants, and really don't get the big picture here. We all work hard, we all put in our time, and until you have worked both you really can't say which one is better.

Ciao!
"The low fares airline."
 
Bridogger6
Topic Author
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RE: Why Do F/A's Make More Than CSR's?

Sat Aug 27, 2005 9:54 am

Hey AA767400 I told you I am a bit biased in that I don't have experience as an FA, I see what I see what they do and I know I don't see everything just as the FA's don't see and realize everything the CSR's do.

I admitted I'm biased so as not to seek unwarrented agression toward me. I am biased in the fact that yes, I probably don't see all of the hard work that FA's do, so I AM biased. I admitted it so I could gain some sort of understanding, that's all. The real question is why do you get paid more and I think it has been answered fairly adequately and I am satisfied with the answer.

No need for any hostility as I am not directing any toward you. I respect and appreciate the hard work you all do and was just trying to figure out why you get paid more than we do. ASFlyer's response probably shed the most light for me when he broke down what the actual pay ends up being for what you do and I realize you really don't make much more than a CSR as it seems. Interesting though.
 
Cactus739
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RE: Why Do F/A's Make More Than CSR's?

Sat Aug 27, 2005 10:03 am

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 17):
and divide that by 56 weeks

Dude, where are you based out of?  spin 

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 17):
What about the 20 hour layover in Fairbanks, Alaska in January

As someone who grew up in Fairbanks, a 20 minute layover is too much in January there.
You can't fix stupid.... - Ron White
 
FutureFO
Posts: 2811
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2001 10:58 pm

RE: Why Do F/A's Make More Than CSR's?

Sat Aug 27, 2005 10:05 am

I am not biased in anyway as I have worked as a CSR, Ramp, and Operations prior to coming to inflight. I enjoyed working in everyjob that I have had at the airlines so I can say I have been there, I have done that.



Sean from MCO and MKE
I Don't know where I am anymore
 
F27XXX
Posts: 617
Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2004 6:53 pm

RE: Why Do F/A's Make More Than CSR's?

Sat Aug 27, 2005 10:25 am

One thing I learned after I resigned from a job as F/A was just how little else a background as F/A (and later CSR) qualified me for in the real world afterward.

We'd prance (well, ok i didnt prance !) thru the terminal with our noses in the air, pulling our little wheelie bags sporting our polished wings, doing that 'i'm off the plane now, i dont make eye contact with passengers' act like we were some kind of a group of celebrities walking down the red carpet thinking all the flash bulbs and envy were directed at us .... cmon every f/a out there nows what i'm talkin about here(even if they dont all feel this way or act like this now - and granted its usually just the newhires that are in this mode .. it does wear off after the job has beat you down in its due time!)

But once youre canned, or you leave the position, you realize how unimpressed people and prospective employers are with that as a background. I was met with none of the "Oh.wow .. what a great and glamorous job, you must have loved it ... why would anyone leave a job like that ..." admiration I thought the job commanded. Usually the reply i got when someone saw my background as F/A on resume was ... "so what skills do you have that are of any use to us?" ... I dont care if you're a F/A fo 25 years, but once youre not doing that job any more, your only marketable skill is "Customer Service". And that means hotel or car rental counter jobs or jobs in a call center of some sort (read: complaint center) or as a food service worker if youre lucky (restaurants like servers with experience in a restaurant .. not in an aisle ).

Come to think of it, many times even when i was still in that job and was still gleaming when i replied "I'm a flight attendant" to the "what kind of work do you do?" question from someone (which, by the way lasted for me for maybe 3 months of my 4 yrs in the air- even tho i was a mini-stew aspiring wannabe ever since i was about 4!) ... i had the lift slapped out from under my wings when the reply was either that blank stare, or more insultingly .. "really? why? .. "

So, after a brief stint waitering (HATED IT!! and man did i suck at it too) I ended up back in the airline biz again . .. tail btween my legs, sheepishly applying for a PT CSR position. Even the Station Mgr of that carrier snickered a bit during my interview at the thought of a "trolley dollie" throwing bags, deicing and getting screamed at by paseengers in a denied boarding or delay or lost bag situation .. i had alot to prove even within the industry! For the next 7 + yrs after that .. i suffered far more abuse from passengers, physical dents and bruises to my body from bags and bagcart tugs and from swallowing the countless number of gallons of glycol sprayed at me (i still say some day I'm gonna wake up and my hairs gonna be glowing hot pink from that .. and still cant open a bottle of Aunt Jemima's without getting the sensation i'm back out on the ramp in February at 5am!) and from baggage doors with minds of their own than I ever did flying. And you know what ? After that job, I found the same thing regarding what prospective employers felt I was qualified to do . tho Travel Agent positions were a little more within reach because of the computer skills and since I was a Passenger Service Supervisor/trainer, I was looked at more kindly for HR type positions ... i ended up saying "screw it all!" and let my love of cooking drag me into the restaurant world and a few yrs later opened my own place.

The bottom line is, both F/A and CSR positions are very, very difficult because with few exceptions they deal with the number one most difficult thing in the world: human beings at their worst, most demanding, big baby, whaaaaaaaaaaa, complainy, sometimes scared to death, bitter-nasty behavior.

To those who do those jobs, enjoy them and do them well, you have my admiration and thanks ... you all deserve alot more money than you make now ! OMFG that was longwinded ... sorry bout that !

Tony  Silly
I'M BAAAAAAAACK!
 
aa757first
Posts: 3140
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RE: Why Do F/A's Make More Than CSR's?

Sat Aug 27, 2005 11:31 am

Quoting Bridogger6 (Thread starter):
So, why do flight attendants make a significant larger amount of money (about $10 more on avg) than Customer Service Representatives?

CSR: Rate x 40 x 52
Flight Attendant: Rate x 70 x 12

Flight attendants work less hours a month, therefore their hourly rate is higher.

AAndrew
 
jetdeltamsy
Posts: 2688
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2000 11:51 am

RE: Why Do F/A's Make More Than CSR's?

Sat Aug 27, 2005 11:47 am

Because we live our lives on the road. We frequently get less than 8 hours sleep. We can't get fat. We are away from our families for long periods of time. We have to move from one city to another several times during our career. We have to remain calm during a crisis. The list goes on and on.

Of course, for most flight attendants, these things are not a problem. It takes a certain kind of person to be able to enjoy the job.

The airport agents have hard jobs. They deal with most of the hotheads and problems. The good ones have vast knowledge of the operation and contacts everywhere. They are able to extract any information you can imagine from the computer. Perhaps they're underpaid. But at the end of a hard day, they go home.

Flight attendants don't.

my two cents.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
usnseallt82
Posts: 4727
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2004 4:49 pm

RE: Why Do F/A's Make More Than CSR's?

Sat Aug 27, 2005 11:51 am

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 8):
If a Flight Attendant messes up, it can mean death for the passengers on board.

Damn right. You better mix that gin and tonic good girl!

:D
Crye me a river
 
ASFlyer
Posts: 1259
Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 1:25 pm

RE: Why Do F/A's Make More Than CSR's?

Sat Aug 27, 2005 11:52 am

Quoting Cactus739 (Reply 29):
Dude, where are you based out of?

OMG - now I feel REALLY stupid. I know there are 52 weeks in a year, but for some reason I said 56 and then I went and divided by 56. DOH!!!!

In any case, the difference is a few cents....
 
Bridogger6
Topic Author
Posts: 664
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2005 11:21 am

RE: Why Do F/A's Make More Than CSR's?

Sat Aug 27, 2005 12:06 pm

LOL don't worry about Mike's comment AS, we all knew what you meant... Mikey is just an ass. :-P haha
 
positiverate
Posts: 1543
Joined: Thu May 05, 2005 10:35 pm

RE: Why Do F/A's Make More Than CSR's?

Sat Aug 27, 2005 12:10 pm

Quoting Bridogger6 (Thread starter):
Ok, so maybe I am a bit biased as a CSR

Yes, you are.
 
777Purser
Posts: 215
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 4:47 pm

RE: Why Do F/A's Make More Than CSR's?

Sat Aug 27, 2005 12:29 pm

We get more money because by the time the unhappy underpaid agent is done with the now disgruntled passenger we have to take over and get locked in with them in an enclosed environment and try to give them that lasting impression of the airline that will actually make them come back and give us their business...

We get paid more because when something goes wrong at the counter, you give the passenger a voucher for food and accommodations, where we give them MMR at the risk of being soaked on their bodily fluids....

We get paid more because when something goes really wrong you read about it in the newspaper where we are the participants of a memorial service...

We get paid more because when you are home spending time with your loved ones we are away often spending Holidays such as Christmas sitting alone in a hotel room in a town in Central America that you cannot even pronounce...

We get paid more because while you spend all day in the terminal, in a clean air conditioned environment at ground level , we spend our day in a metallic cycinder breathing everybodies germs, picking up their cups, leftovers and trash, at an altitude and cabin pressure abnormal for a human being to constantly endure and exposed to radiation...

Yes...we get paid more for so many more reasons and such is life...and I'll be dammed if you want me to hurry up for a quick turn when I am working a 16 hr duty day and I need five minutes to grab a bite to eat before you slam that door on me when they don't even put meals onboard for the crew anymore. Sorry for my arrogance...
 
usnseallt82
Posts: 4727
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2004 4:49 pm

RE: Why Do F/A's Make More Than CSR's?

Sat Aug 27, 2005 12:36 pm

Quoting 777PURSER (Reply 38):
...exposed to radiation

Not unless the 737-convertible series is out.  Big grin

Otherwise, nice rage! I like it!
Crye me a river
 
airnewzealand
Posts: 2310
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2000 6:00 pm

RE: Why Do F/A's Make More Than CSR's?

Sat Aug 27, 2005 12:43 pm

Funny you should mention this,

Within our Airline the CSR and FA's all get on well with each other. We don't bitch and moan, we do our jobs and do it well. Usually because of this we get away on time.

We both know we have our specific duties, and we do them, without getting in each others way! Its really nice to see when CSR's ask us what our jobs entail etc and im sure you appreciate it when we ask you.

I can only speak from my point of view as a FA...

Training was 5 and a half weeks. Intense, fun, and rewarding!!!!
At Qantas we have to do recurrent training every 6 months.
As a long haul flight attendant, we are trained on 747-400/300, 767-300, A330-200/300. Now on everyone of these aircrafts we have to know, Equipment locations, What type of slides are in the door bustles, Emergency codes, how many pax in each zone, bomb locations, sounds of the aircraft (and trust me they vary considerably), galley locations of food/drinks, container locations etc etc... their is plenty more that fall into the above categories. ie. What type of slides would incorporate how many pax, if Raft or just slide, Equipment locations on the rafts, how to disconnect, how to SURVIVE in the Antarctic...

It may sound easy but you imagine yourself on a Goodrich raft with 60-80pax on it, trying to conserve food and Water, managing first aid, putting up shelter.

You also state that you must know your airlines conditions of travel etc...
At Qantas we also must know this, we must know what is a city flyer what isnt, who can sit where and why, it happens all too often that a little UM is sitting next to a Man and we have to move pax around (esp. when the aircraft is full), or an elderly pax is in an emergency exit row and we have to apologies and state why they cant sit their, or when a CSR tells a pax to "just ask onboard, the flight attendants will handle you", esp. with upgrades, when they know that at our airline, flight attendants have no authority to upgrade passengers.

Many people look at our job as "Easy" and yeh im not going to doubt that. Thats why you keep yourself occupied learning new languages, studying other areas etc etc... but its the constant re-newing of equipment, Emergency procedures, normal procedures, inflight emergencies, Service standards, tyoes of wine we serve and how they taste, meals changing every three months and what they have in them, standard operating procedures, that make our job a lil harder. Studying a whole new manual is a lot harder than most think, when it is not the usual jargon you would use in everyday life!!!

Hope I've shed abit more life...

Cheers
AirNewZealand
 
Bridogger6
Topic Author
Posts: 664
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2005 11:21 am

RE: Why Do F/A's Make More Than CSR's?

Sat Aug 27, 2005 12:51 pm

Quoting 777PURSER (Reply 38):
We get more money because by the time the unhappy underpaid agent is done with the now disgruntled passenger we have to take over and get locked in with them in an enclosed environment and try to give them that lasting impression of the airline that will actually make them come back and give us their business...

We get paid more because when something goes wrong at the counter, you give the passenger a voucher for food and accommodations, where we give them MMR at the risk of being soaked on their bodily fluids....

We get paid more because when something goes really wrong you read about it in the newspaper where we are the participants of a memorial service...

We get paid more because when you are home spending time with your loved ones we are away often spending Holidays such as Christmas sitting alone in a hotel room in a town in Central America that you cannot even pronounce...

We get paid more because while you spend all day in the terminal, in a clean air conditioned environment at ground level , we spend our day in a metallic cycinder breathing everybodies germs, picking up their cups, leftovers and trash, at an altitude and cabin pressure abnormal for a human being to constantly endure and exposed to radiation...

Yes...we get paid more for so many more reasons and such is life...and I'll be dammed if you want me to hurry up for a quick turn when I am working a 16 hr duty day and I need five minutes to grab a bite to eat before you slam that door on me when they don't even put meals onboard for the crew anymore. Sorry for my arrogance...

Hmm.. so this is why CSR's hate flight attendants who think they do so much more than we do. We all choose are job, stop complaining, and we deal with most everything YOU deal with. You're exactly one of the reasons CSR's don't work well with their fellow flight attendants.

Sorry, I don't know what airline you work for, but most ground agents at my airline are happy, and we reflect that to the passenger, don't act like it's our fault that you have upset passengers on your flights because the plane is delayed or a flight has been cancelled, we're not the ones who did the cancelling and we're not the ones with the bad attitude, I for one am always pleasent to deal with and can say the same of the majority of my fellow agents.

Yep we give vouchers for food and accomdations you're right, to passengers who scream at us the whole time. We also get covered in bodily fluids. I won't even go into details but last week I was thrown up on while taking a 15 year old off the plane who got really sick on the plane. There are also a few times where I have been splashed and moreso by passengers in wheelchairs. So don't even get into bodily fluids.

When something goes really wrong, all the passengers including the non-reving gate agents are in the memorial service as well, it's about being in the wrong place at the wrong time. You chose the job and accept the dangers. I accept the dangers of mine. There are dangers to every job, but yours is a very riskless one considering planes are incredibly safe. If you're afraid of flying or consider it risky, I think you might be in the wrong line of work.

We work Xmas and holidays as well. There's not much Christmas when you're not there for the family dinner or the opening of presents. Big diff, except not. Try being stuck on mandatory overtime on holidays because you're short agents and so everything is both going out and coming in late. As soon as you're flight is done, you're done. We have to wait for planes to come in, ALL the planes, then we're done.

Oh don't give me that altitude crap, show me one ill effect it is having on you. Picking up trash? I take trash all the time from customers. Both paper trash and trash from their mouths... no difference there, hmm.

Oh no, you're workinga 16 hour duty day? Sorry we're actually WORKING all sixteen hours some days just to make our ends meet. So damn you if you won't get on the plane and find a minute for yourself to eat in your own free time. The last thing we want is to be lectured about not getting a plane out on time at and having disiplinary action taken against us at the one of our 15 hour work days. So damn you for not giving a damn and giving all the flight attendants I have categorized as arrogant a bad rep.

Sorry, your post angered me.  Smile But anyway, in general I do agree as I HAVE SAID that you have a difficult job at times, but don't go demeaning your fellow employees, thanks.  Smile
 
AA767400
Posts: 1892
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2001 2:04 am

RE: Why Do F/A's Make More Than CSR's?

Sat Aug 27, 2005 1:47 pm

Quoting F27XXX (Reply 31):
We'd prance (well, ok i didnt prance !) thru the terminal with our noses in the air, pulling our little wheelie bags sporting our polished wings, doing that 'i'm off the plane now, i dont make eye contact with passengers' act like we were some kind of a group of celebrities walking down the red carpet thinking all the flash bulbs and envy were directed at us .... cmon every f/a out there nows what i'm talkin about here(even if they dont all feel this way or act like this now - and granted its usually just the newhires that are in this mode .. it does wear off after the job has beat you down in its due time!)

Huh? What airline did you work for? Because here in the good old U.S.A people really don't give a rat's ass about about a Flight Crew walking down the terminal. In fact, people are thinking "They are nothing but a bunch of waiters/waitresses in the sky". We live in the America where Flight Attendants are right there with your local bartender. I mean don't get me wrong, I wish it were not that way but we live in a environment where the more money you make the better you are. And the better you are respected.

Quoting Bridogger6 (Reply 28):
Hey AA767400 I told you I am a bit biased in that I don't have experience as an FA, I see what I see what they do and I know I don't see everything just as the FA's don't see and realize everything the CSR's do.

That's why I don't want you to get to into that biased view because you have to look at it from another view. And both positions have work to deal with it, why one makes more than the other I don't know?
"The low fares airline."
 
BigGSFO
Posts: 2214
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2005 5:27 am

RE: Why Do F/A's Make More Than CSR's?

Sat Aug 27, 2005 2:16 pm

The title of this post was asking for a heated argument.
 
GQfluffy
Posts: 3072
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 1:25 pm

RE: Why Do F/A's Make More Than CSR's?

Sat Aug 27, 2005 3:04 pm

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 8):
If a Customer Service Representative messes up, there isn't a single passenger who is going to die because of it, unless the passenger has a high blood pressure to begin with.

Really? What if I miss about 200 lbs of bags while counting and filling out Weight & Balance worksheats? What if I don't de-ice the a/c properly? What if I decide to stack all the bags on one side of the hold? What if I don't make sure the double-check all the hatches below before the plane takes off and one opens inflight? What if I push a aircraft into another one?

I can go on and on if you'd like.

fluffy
This isn't where I parked my car...
 
Lono
Posts: 1136
Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2004 5:47 pm

RE: Why Do F/A's Make More Than CSR's?

Sat Aug 27, 2005 3:27 pm

Quoting F27XXX (Reply 31):
I ended up saying "screw it all!" and let my love of cooking drag me into the restaurant world and a few yrs later opened my own place.

The bottom line is, both F/A and CSR positions are very, very difficult because with few exceptions they deal with the number one most difficult thing in the world: human beings at their worst, most demanding, big baby, whaaaaaaaaaaa, complainy, sometimes scared to death, bitter-nasty behavior.

To those who do those jobs, enjoy them and do them well, you have my admiration and thanks ... You all deserve alot more money than you make now ! OMFG that was longwinded ... sorry bout that !
Tony

Your post hit the nail on the head and you described both sides as only a true veteran of this silly business could...!!!! After 3 major airlines (20 years)I too finally said screw it and it was the best thing I ever did professionally..... All properly trained airline employees can be more successful OUTSIDE of this business... This business will never be what it once was..... For those of you sticking it out however..... Keep up the good fight and good luck to you..... It is going to get ugly....

F27XXX welcome to my respected user list
Wally Bird Ruled the Skys!
 
midex461
Posts: 228
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2000 11:08 am

RE: Why Do F/A's Make More Than CSR's?

Sat Aug 27, 2005 3:37 pm

Quoting Bridogger6 (Reply 41):
most ground agents at my airline are happy

You must be talking about the gate, b/c most of the guys I work with on the ramp sound exactly the opposite. What I've heard most recently is "they'd better increase our pay to what US guys are getting paid. 'Cause I won't work next to someone doing the same job for less. That's discrimination." Quite frankly, I wouldn't want too many of our rampers working pax service.

Now, don't get me wrong, I think that ALL ground workers deserve to make more. For what we do, we deserve more than $7.50 (HP ramp) or $7.65 (HP CSRs) an hour.

BTW, Bridogger6, right now you'll find me running conx downstairs.
Opinions and views expressed are MINE and do NOT represent the views of US Airways
 
ASFlyer
Posts: 1259
Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 1:25 pm

RE: Why Do F/A's Make More Than CSR's?

Sat Aug 27, 2005 3:37 pm

Quoting GQfluffy (Reply 44):
Really? What if I miss about 200 lbs of bags while counting and filling out Weight & Balance worksheats? What if I don't de-ice the a/c properly? What if I decide to stack all the bags on one side of the hold? What if I don't make sure the double-check all the hatches below before the plane takes off and one opens inflight? What if I push a aircraft into another one?

I can go on and on if you'd like.

fluffy

fluffy -

Most airlines don't require their CSA's to do all of the things that you do at a smaller airline, such as Big Sky. Some do more, in the smaller stations, but generally speaking, most CSA's handle customers, most rampers handle bags, most dispatch people handle weight and balance. If you are doing these things for your airline then you should be making more than you no doubt are. However, in a smaller community such as HLN or BIL, I imagine that the costs of living are somewhat less and the jobs are a little more scarce. Perhaps, because of that, they can get away with paying you somewhat less. In any case, you certainly carry quite a bit of responsibility on your shoulders in your job at Big Sky and deserve every cent that you make.
 
GQfluffy
Posts: 3072
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 1:25 pm

RE: Why Do F/A's Make More Than CSR's?

Sat Aug 27, 2005 3:55 pm

Quoting Midex461 (Reply 46):
Now, don't get me wrong, I think that ALL ground workers deserve to make more. For what we do, we deserve more than $7.50 (HP ramp) or $7.65 (HP CSRs) an hour.

Dang...and I thought I had it rough. So what do you make???

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 47):

ASFlyer, thanks for the kind words. I kinda got a "little" hotheaded when I made that reply. And to be honest, I didn't have it in my head that Customer Service Representatives and Customer Service Agents can and do have two seperate job descriptions. I'm not a CSR, I'm a CSA. I do it all. So I suppose I had that "talk" coming at me. Either way, I still think that guy stepped a bit out of bounds not realizing what he's talking about.

fluffy
This isn't where I parked my car...
 
aerobalance
Posts: 4308
Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2000 8:35 am

RE: Why Do F/A's Make More Than CSR's?

Sat Aug 27, 2005 4:34 pm

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 17):
divide that by 56 weeks

Did the calendar year change?


You all should be bitchin' at your exec. mgmt for pay raises. You ALL are underpaid.
"Sing a song, play guitar, make it snappy..."

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