a300aa
Posts: 298
Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2004 9:12 am

Top Destinations From AA

Mon Aug 29, 2005 7:55 am

Here are the top 5 destinations out of MIA in terms of profitability.

EZE
PAP
PLS
POS
BOG

and the most profitable sistemwide
MIA EZE
JFK GRU
MIA BOG
DFW GRU
This is according to a meeting that we had a month ago.

Any thoughts?
 
BHMNONREV
Posts: 1209
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 9:17 am

RE: Top Destinations From AA

Mon Aug 29, 2005 8:15 am

Is this on a per flight basis, cargo, passenger, what?

No mention of LHR. I'm no airline financial genius, but I would think this station would be there somewhere.

I had heard that Central/South America was profitable, but no Europe??

Maybe Mark can provide some more insight.

Interesting...
 
boeingbus
Posts: 1509
Joined: Sat May 29, 2004 12:37 am

RE: Top Destinations From AA

Mon Aug 29, 2005 8:16 am

that Latin America is a cash cow for AA!!!
Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
 
Avianca
Posts: 5276
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 5:33 am

RE: Top Destinations From AA

Mon Aug 29, 2005 8:17 am

Quoting A300AA (Thread starter):
MIA BOG

sounds logical... Smile

would say AA is making on the route money due the pax, as the cargo rate is rock-bottom....

regards
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
a300aa
Posts: 298
Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2004 9:12 am

RE: Top Destinations From AA

Mon Aug 29, 2005 8:22 am

Quoting BHMNONREV (Reply 1):
No mention of LHR. I'm no airline financial genius, but I would think this station would be there somewhere.

LHR was on the 8 th place.

Quoting BHMNONREV (Reply 1):
Is this on a per flight basis, cargo, passenger, what?

I think its in general, the whole route.
 
FlewGSW
Posts: 148
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 5:45 am

RE: Top Destinations From AA

Mon Aug 29, 2005 8:35 am

Most seats in one market:
DFW-LAX

Most flights in one market:
LAX-SAN

Shortest flight in distance:
ORD-MKE

Longest flight in distance:
JFK-NRT
 
738_Driver
Posts: 74
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2001 5:17 pm

RE: Top Destinations From AA

Mon Aug 29, 2005 9:52 am

And who was the meeting with and what did it cover?
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24601
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: Top Destinations From AA

Mon Aug 29, 2005 10:07 am

Quoting BHMNONREV (Reply 1):
Is this on a per flight basis, cargo, passenger, what?

I believe this is on a per-flight basis. For example, JFK-GRU brings in more money per-flight than MIA-GRU, but MIA-GRU, with three daily flights, brings in a lot more profit overall. I do know that AA 943/908 (MIA-EZE-MIA) is the single most profitable flight in AA's entire system, and, outside of a short time during the Argentine economy collapse, that has been the case for a long time.
a.
 
Scott4AA
Posts: 319
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2002 11:36 am

RE: Top Destinations From AA

Mon Aug 29, 2005 10:15 am

Interesting. Wasn't there talk of downgrading DFW-GRU back to 7x weekly?
American Airlines - We Know Why You Fly
 
laca773
Posts: 2034
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2004 7:10 am

RE: Top Destinations From AA

Mon Aug 29, 2005 10:35 am

What about the best performing domestic and European trips?
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5050
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: Top Destinations From AA

Mon Aug 29, 2005 11:10 am

An AA executive in Rio annouced that the 91% loads on GIG-MIA puts the route as one of the best in South America. Whats the correct position for this route, do you have info on this A300AA ?

Quoting Scott4AA (Reply 8):
Interesting. Wasn't there talk of downgrading DFW-GRU back to 7x weekly?

Yes, but with this issue i probably imagine that GIG-MIA on Rio high season is really a money machine (but GIG-MIA do not appears in the list!). Also, AA will offer the 5 frequencies from GRU-DFW on GIG-MIA only during around 3 months. After that probably they will come back to GRU-DFW.

Rgds,
Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24601
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: Top Destinations From AA

Mon Aug 29, 2005 11:37 am

Quoting Scott4AA (Reply 8):
Interesting. Wasn't there talk of downgrading DFW-GRU back to 7x weekly?

It will, to increase MIA-GIG back to 12x weekly in December for the winter. The second flight has had a huge negative effect on the flight's passenger yields, but the additional cargo revenue has kept things on the bright side.
a.
 
stock1985
Posts: 66
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2003 12:47 am

RE: Top Destinations From AA

Mon Aug 29, 2005 2:37 pm

I was just looking at AA Flights between MIA-EZE-MIA (900 & 943, 908 & 909) and the loads overall do not look that impressive when looking into the near future. While I realize this is not high season, I looked at all cabins and First and Business cabins were not even close to full. How could these flights be so profitable? Are there corporations who heavily subsidize these flights? I know that there is a huge VFR market, and many wealthy Argentines vacation in the Miami area, but what really makes this more profitable than a Heathrow flight or a flight to Narita. I am just really surprised to see the flights not going out as full as I would expect.

Also, I was looking into the future for a flight between MIA-EZE-MIA throughout the fall, up until Christmas...average fare was around $750, that does not spell high yeilding. Business class averages just around $4500, less than an LHR return flight. What really makes this flight the most profitable??? Obvious reasons: a very wealthy VFR link, cargo, business links, what else...is it just the sheer amount of the above that makes it really shine?
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24601
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: Top Destinations From AA

Mon Aug 29, 2005 3:01 pm

Quoting Stock1985 (Reply 12):
I was just looking at AA Flights between MIA-EZE-MIA (900 & 943, 908 & 909) and the loads overall do not look that impressive when looking into the near future. While I realize this is not high season, I looked at all cabins and First and Business cabins were not even close to full. How could these flights be so profitable? Are there corporations who heavily subsidize these flights? I know that there is a huge VFR market, and many wealthy Argentines vacation in the Miami area, but what really makes this more profitable than a Heathrow flight or a flight to Narita. I am just really surprised to see the flights not going out as full as I would expect.

Also, I was looking into the future for a flight between MIA-EZE-MIA throughout the fall, up until Christmas...average fare was around $750, that does not spell high yeilding. Business class averages just around $4500, less than an LHR return flight. What really makes this flight the most profitable??? Obvious reasons: a very wealthy VFR link, cargo, business links, what else...is it just the sheer amount of the above that makes it really shine?

Many factors make the flight profitable. Going to aa.com and checking out fares gives no indication as to a route's profit margins. And, as you said, it is the slow season. Between the end of August and early October, traffic between Miami and Latin America literally nosedives, and AA and others reduce capacity for the eight week period (which also allows planes to into maintence). Reasons that make AA 943/909 the single most profitable flight in AA's network:

1) High fares. I know you might be finding good $750 fares, but that is far from the average. I purchased a discount Y ticket on this flight last winter, and it cost me $1,100, despite flying the redeye on Christmas Eve.
2) Lots of business travel means lots of last minute travelers.
3) People pay full-fare C and F on this flight; much more so than on AA's JFK-LHR flight. Getting an upgrade on this flight is a difficult task most of the year.
4) Limited compietition. A total of seven airlines fly NYC-LON. Only two, AR and AA, fly MIA-EZE (this will become three this winter with LANArgentina's new daily MIA-EZE flight).
5) AA does not offer a comparable business class product on NYC-LHR versus the compietition. Virgin Atlantic and British Airways' offer an substationally better business class product; and BA's First product is also arguably better. As well, Kuwait Airlines and Air India keep the Y fares low. American Airlines offers the best premium product on MIA-EZE, no questions asked. AA loses a lot of higher fare pax in the London market to BA/VS.
6) Cargo revenue.
a.
 
LAXintl
Posts: 20183
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: Top Destinations From AA

Mon Aug 29, 2005 3:14 pm

I have seen a profitability report for AA's entire international network for 2004.

In terms of operating margin here were the top routes per region.

South America
MIA-EZE
JFK-GRU
DFW-GRU
MIA-CCS
MIA-GYE

Asia
DFW-NRT

Atlantic
ORD-MAN
MIA-LHR
DFW-FRA
LAX-LHR
DFW-ZRH

Before everyone jumps on some of the routes and ask "what about xxx-xxx", the stats are based on the routes overall profitability margin.

For instance a route like ORD-MAN while not being a significant business market operates with overall consistent high load factors and strong cargo loads, thus it has managed to produce a strong positve operating margin.

On the other hand a route like JFK-LHR while significantly bigger and certainly much more a business oriented does not necessarily translate into as high of a profitability margin as the airline experiences lower load factors, and also plenty of low yield economy seats on their multiple daily flights.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: Top Destinations From AA

Mon Aug 29, 2005 4:39 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 7):
I believe this is on a per-flight basis. For example, JFK-GRU brings in more money per-flight than MIA-GRU, but MIA-GRU, with three daily flights, brings in a lot more profit overall

Correct.

I was aware that GRU was AA's most profitable destinations sistemwyde out of DFW and JFK.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 10):
but with this issue i probably imagine that GIG-MIA on Rio high season is really a money machine (but GIG-MIA do not appears in the list!).

GIG-MIA is not in the list simply because it is a money machine in the high season only, traffic and average fares reduces substantially in the low season.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 13):
Limited compietition. A total of seven airlines fly NYC-LON. Only two, AR and AA, fly MIA-EZE (this will become three this winter with LANArgentina's new daily MIA-EZE flight).

Indeed, I'm sure MIA-GRU brings in a lot more money, but with TAM and RG in the market, and more than 40 weekly flights, AA profit margins are affected.

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 2):
that Latin America is a cash cow for AA!!!

No doubt.

Rgs,
 
GLAGAZ
Posts: 1844
Joined: Sat Feb 28, 2004 5:42 am

RE: Top Destinations From AA

Tue Aug 30, 2005 3:24 am

Out of personal interest, does anyone know how profitable the seasonal ORD-GLA flight is for AA?

Gaz
Neutrality means that u don't really care cos the struggle goes on even when ur not there, blind and unaware
 
FLY2LIM
Posts: 1095
Joined: Thu May 06, 2004 6:01 am

RE: Top Destinations From AA

Tue Aug 30, 2005 5:18 am

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 14):
I have seen a profitability report for AA's entire international network for 2004.

In terms of operating margin here were the top routes per region.

South America
MIA-EZE
JFK-GRU
DFW-GRU
MIA-CCS
MIA-GYE

Out of pure curiosity, how profitable are the LIM routes for AA?

FLY2LIM
Faucett. La primera linea aerea del Peru.
 
Billy
Posts: 890
Joined: Sun Jul 23, 2000 11:18 pm

RE: Top Destinations From AA

Tue Aug 30, 2005 7:28 pm

Glagaz, GLA just broke even last year.

Fly2LIM, the MIA service makes money in the peak, but loses a ton of cash off-peak. The DFW also loses money heavily in the off-peak, wiping out the peak period profits. AA is not happy.
 
GLAGAZ
Posts: 1844
Joined: Sat Feb 28, 2004 5:42 am

RE: Top Destinations From AA

Wed Aug 31, 2005 1:32 am

Quoting Billy (Reply 18):
Glagaz, GLA just broke even last year.

Whats the main problem with the route then? Loads are always healthy so I presume the yields are low?

Gaz
Neutrality means that u don't really care cos the struggle goes on even when ur not there, blind and unaware
 
RICARIZA
Posts: 2023
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2005 7:56 am

RE: Top Destinations From AA

Wed Aug 31, 2005 9:22 pm

There is an article in today's financial paper in Colombia about this: (In Spanish)
http://www.portafolio.com.co/port_se...B-NOTA_INTERIOR_PORTA-2511234.html

(A quick translation, sorry for the mistakes)
American Airlines grew in the market of Colombia during first semester

For the high season an increase in the Bogota-Miami flights to three daily is predicted. The extension in the demand from trips to the United States has generated a true commotion between the companies that serve in this route.

American Airlines, that this year completes 15 years of operations in Colombia, has designed new strategies to take care of this flow of travelers. The company has transported in the 2005 more than 250,000 passengers in its route to Miami and more than 4.5 million load pounds towards E.U. and the world, from Bogota, medellin and Cali. In the last year of operations, a growth of 3.8 percent in Colombia. In front of other operators who fly from Bogota to the United States, American Airlines has a participation in the market of the 33 percent; from Cali a 41 percent and Medellin with a 45 percent. In the last 15 years the company has strengthened his presence in Colombia, for that reason he has increased his routes and also he has initiated the promotion of the coffee zone, in the United States.


PAX between Jan-July 2005.


The company counts on two daily flights to Miami from Bogota, which are increased to three during the high season; a daily flight from medellin to Miami and Cali-Miami. Of another side, Marta Patntin, of American explained that the idea of the company is to continue growing in Latin America, region that represents a great percentage of its income, over Europe, specially in the places in where it is operating. In Colombia it has 200 direct employees, of which 120 correspond to flight attendants. In the world the number of civil employees approaches the 90,000 and although it has reduced the number of airplanes, its current fleet is near the 1.000 planes.
I miss ACES, I am proud of AVIANCA & I am loyal to AMERICAN
 
AF022
Posts: 1638
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2003 10:41 pm

RE: Top Destinations From AA

Wed Aug 31, 2005 9:27 pm

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 10):
An AA executive in Rio annouced that the 91% loads on GIG-MIA puts the route as one of the best in South America

Load factor is nice, but yields make the route. Yields to Rio are notoriously bad.
 
Billy
Posts: 890
Joined: Sun Jul 23, 2000 11:18 pm

RE: Top Destinations From AA

Wed Aug 31, 2005 9:52 pm

GLAGAZ,

With a seasonal service it is tough appealing to the corporate market. USAirways is experiencing a similar issue on PHL. If they could get year-round then the route would work. I understand that AA might be looking at yearround 757 instead of seasonal 767.
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: Top Destinations From AA

Wed Aug 31, 2005 9:55 pm

Quoting AF022 (Reply 21):
Load factor is nice, but yields make the route. Yields to Rio are notoriously bad.

Not in the high season. I dispute the fact that yields to Rio are so bad, otherwise AA would not relocate 5 frequencies out of GRU to GIG.

Rgs,
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: Top Destinations From AA

Wed Aug 31, 2005 9:58 pm

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 14):
have seen a profitability report for AA's entire international network for 2004.

In terms of operating margin here were the top routes:

South America
MIA-EZE
JFK-GRU
DFW-GRU
MIA-CCS

I thought MIA-BOG would be in the list since it is one of AA's most profitable routes out of MIA.
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5050
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: Top Destinations From AA

Thu Sep 01, 2005 11:30 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 23):
Quoting AF022 (Reply 21):
Load factor is nice, but yields make the route. Yields to Rio are notoriously bad.

Not in the high season. I dispute the fact that yields to Rio are so bad, otherwise AA would not relocate 5 frequencies out of GRU to GIG

Agree. And Rio also demand more service to MIA and also JFK. Yields to Rio proved not to be bad as people think in the past: AF, IB, TP, AA, RG all with good results on their nonstop routes out of GIG. In fact is notorious that AF and TP are geting better results from GIG than other flights in Brazil.
Thats why i need to fly MIA-GRU-GIG next friday, no seats available on C class on MIA-GIG at time of booking ! A route with a C class always full and good cargo operations could not be called as bad yield.

Rgds,
Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
commavia
Posts: 9809
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: Top Destinations From AA

Thu Sep 01, 2005 11:37 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 25):
Yields to Rio proved not to be bad as people think in the past: AF, IB, TP, AA, RG all with good results on their nonstop routes out of GIG.

I think it's quite telling, though -- three of those five airlines are European, and one is from Brazil! I could be wrong, but it is at least my perception that Rio is a much more "European" city while Sao Paulo is a more "global city." What I mean by that is that GRU generates much more traffic, and higher yields, from the U.S. in particular (versus Rio) while GIG is a much more high-yielding market with respect to European traffic and European-originating passengers. In other words, GIG generates pretty good yields, but mostly to Europe. When it comes to the U.S., recent history has shown time and time again that GRU simply blows GIG out of the water as far as U.S.-Brazil yields and demand, as that is where almost all U.S. air traffic has been steadily moving over the last 10-15 years.
 
FLY2LIM
Posts: 1095
Joined: Thu May 06, 2004 6:01 am

RE: Top Destinations From AA

Thu Sep 01, 2005 11:42 am

Quoting Billy (Reply 18):
Fly2LIM, the MIA service makes money in the peak, but loses a ton of cash off-peak. The DFW also loses money heavily in the off-peak, wiping out the peak period profits. AA is not happy.

Thanks, that makes sense. In reading an article about Peruvian aviation that was included in another a.net thread, it stated that airport fees for LIM have gone up around 400% since the airport was privatized. I also know that AA has heavy security in this segment, which may add costs. Lately, they have been subcontracting the security of the aircraft, a fact a few of you may not know. This is all in an effort to cut costs. What I don't understand is why they got rid of the 757s and went with A300s for the MIA flights, which are 2 a day.

FLY2LIM
Faucett. La primera linea aerea del Peru.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24601
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: Top Destinations From AA

Thu Sep 01, 2005 11:51 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 26):
while GIG is a much more high-yielding market with respect to European traffic and European-originating passengers. I

That is definitley not the case. Many major European carriers have long since ended GIG service - including Swiss, Lufhansa, KLM, and Alitalia. TAP, Air France, and British Airways are the only European airline at GIG, and BA is via GRU. Rio de Janeiro performs well yield-wise thanks to limited capacity. During the mid-20th Centruy, Rio de Janeiro was one of the world's cities. It was a vacation playgroud for the rich, along with the likes of Calcutta, Dakar, Baghdad, Shanghai, Acapulco, Los Angeles, Caracas, Nice, Miami Beach, and Honolulu. Few of them remain the vacation playgrounds they once were.
a.
 
Southamerica
Posts: 2302
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 2:56 am

RE: Top Destinations From AA

Thu Sep 01, 2005 12:02 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 28):
TAP, Air France, and British Airways are the only European airline at GIG, and BA is via GRU.

Don't forget IB.



S.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24601
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: Top Destinations From AA

Thu Sep 01, 2005 12:07 pm

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 29):
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 28):
TAP, Air France, and British Airways are the only European airline at GIG, and BA is via GRU.

Don't forget IB.


Yes, of course. Thanks.
a.
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5050
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: Top Destinations From AA

Thu Sep 01, 2005 12:24 pm

Mike, please include IBERIA on your list. They serve both GRU and GIG non stop.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 28):
That is definitley not the case. Many major European carriers have long since ended GIG service - including Swiss, Lufhansa, KLM, and Alitalia. TAP, Air France, and British Airways are the only European airline at GIG, and BA is via GRU. Rio de Janeiro performs well yield-wise thanks to limited capacity. During the mid-20th Centruy, Rio de Janeiro was one of the world's cities. It was a vacation playgroud for the rich, along with the likes of Calcutta, Dakar, Baghdad, Shanghai, Acapulco, Los Angeles, Caracas, Nice, Miami Beach, and Honolulu. Few of them remain the vacation playgrounds they once were.

Your comments are quite perfect. But Rio is not only a destination city and " playground for the rich ". Its also almost 15% of brazilian GNP and also HQ for at least 35% of Brazilian Top 30 Corporates incluidng the two top of three Brazilian International Companies (Petrobras and Vale do Rio Doce) and the third could become using Rio as there are service Sao Jose dos Campos-Rio (Embraer). Rio generates a lot of biz traffic and remember that all days RG fills 2 M11 to SAO in order to connect to MXP, JFK, MIA, MAD and LIS flights. AF keeps a larger plane from Rio than Sao Paulo, TP uses the same plane and several times send pax thru GRU as loads for GIG are 100% from GIG and from GRU are no more than 55% from Sao Paulo.
Is a fact that GRU due to its position keeps more First and Biz Pax but for the amount of non stop flights GIG keeps, they are very profitable.
Also Rio keeps at desire list of millions people in the earth! I was at California and heard from many people the same info: they want to know more about Rio (same here in New York)
Swiss, Alitalia, KLM, all of them does not have pax to fill two flights to Brazil, LH option was to use code-share with RG at GRU (which improves loads for GIG-FRA and turns the flight into the first position at RG network in terms of profitability), BA knows that there are no other options at GIG (something that could be changed at the time Virgin starts GIG-London service)


Quoting Commavia (Reply 26):
What I mean by that is that GRU generates much more traffic, and higher yields, from the U.S. in particular (versus Rio) while GIG is a much more high-yielding market with respect to European traffic and European-originating passengers

Even without MAH4546 agreement, GIG has become important for european traffic. I cant say as important as GRU but due to the size of Rio, its a very good market in fact. RG, TP, IB and AF all get better results from GIG than GRU (and its public). AMS, LHR and MXP are not served non stop from GIG but note, Sao Paulo is even by far a Italian state. In the case of London, its a BA decision but the high yield traffic comes also from GIG (due to presence of Souza Cruz/British American Tabaco, British Gas, Shell, SmithKline Glaxo Welcome and other major british business HQ in Rio).
Also info i obtain from Delta is that for the first week of GIG-ATL flight there are dates in which there are no more availability (while they keep availability on GRU-ATL), even in Business Class.

Important: Rio is for sure secundary option for GRU but also an important business city and the biggest city in terms of congress and seminars (to which probably we see more biz people).

Im just trying to say that Rio is not bad yield, in other case just ask AF, IB, TP and even AA why do not hub their entire operations at GRU.

Rgds,
Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24601
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: Top Destinations From AA

Thu Sep 01, 2005 12:27 pm

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 31):
. But Rio is not only a destination city and " playground for the rich ".

I said was a playground for the rich, not is. Rio de Janeiro's former glory is now long gone, with most wealthy European chosing to vacation in the more modern resorts of Northeast Brazil and Salvador.
a.
 
Billy
Posts: 890
Joined: Sun Jul 23, 2000 11:18 pm

RE: Top Destinations From AA

Thu Sep 01, 2005 5:19 pm

Fly2LIM,
The decision to switch to the A300 on MIA is based upon cargo potential. The Peruvian asparagus market needs all the cargo capacity it can get during the peak season. This was the reason that DL went to widebody out of LIM.

However, AA is reviewing its LIM operations, so watch for developments.
 
FLY2LIM
Posts: 1095
Joined: Thu May 06, 2004 6:01 am

RE: Top Destinations From AA

Fri Sep 02, 2005 4:06 am

Quoting Billy (Reply 33):
Fly2LIM,
The decision to switch to the A300 on MIA is based upon cargo potential. The Peruvian asparagus market needs all the cargo capacity it can get during the peak season. This was the reason that DL went to widebody out of LIM.

However, AA is reviewing its LIM operations, so watch for developments.

That is what my "sources" tell me. They are really cutting costs and may shut down the f/a station some day.

FLY2LIM
Faucett. La primera linea aerea del Peru.
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: Top Destinations From AA

Fri Sep 02, 2005 5:35 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 32):
I said was a playground for the rich, not is. Rio de Janeiro's former glory is now long gone, with most wealthy European chosing to vacation in the more modern resorts of Northeast Brazil and Salvador.

Walk around Leblon-Ipanema and you wont get surprised to pass by Naomi Campbell, Calvin Klein or Gisele Bunchen...Rio still has its glory, but it attracts a different "circuit" of rich people. Copacabana Palace, restored a couple of years ago in a mega-operation, keeps fully booked of foreign rich and starts...old-fashioned Queen Beatrix of the Netherlands spent her holidays there last year. But I have to agree that the "resorts" and increasing infra-structure in the NE Brazilian coast is becoming a favourite.

Rgs,
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: Top Destinations From AA

Fri Sep 02, 2005 5:39 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 31):
Im just trying to say that Rio is not bad yield, in other case just ask AF, IB, TP and even AA why do not hub their entire operations at GRU.

Correct. Currently about 60% of Rio's hotel occupation is business-related. Rio's economy has been one of the best-performing in Brazil for the last 3 years! Growing economy + all-year leisure/holiday destination + 1st destination in Latin Amerioca in terms of congress/seminar = GIG. This is the ingredient all airlines want. Watch out for GIG sustained growth!

Rgs,
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24601
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: Top Destinations From AA

Fri Sep 02, 2005 8:35 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 35):

Walk around Leblon-Ipanema and you wont get surprised to pass by Naomi Campbell, Calvin Klein or Gisele Bunchen...Rio still has its glory, but it attracts a different "circuit" of rich people.

I'm not denying Rio de Janeiro still has it's charm. I'm not saying it's not a beautiful city or that you won't find some celeberities. I was there two years ago, and really enjoyed it. But to say it still has its glory is to be ignorant of it's recent past. Rio's hey day is long gone. Since the 1960s, the city has suffered as business moved out to Sao Paulo, the capital moved to Brasilia, the tourists stopped coming in large numbers, and crime skyrocketed. Maybe it will resurface in the future, but it isn't the glamourous city it once was.
a.
 
air palingus
Posts: 17
Joined: Sat May 06, 2000 10:22 am

RE: Top Destinations From AA

Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:11 am

Woww!! I had never imagined that EZE-MIA would be AA's most profitable route en Latin America and the world!! Indeed, I have spent my summer vacations (january) in the United States for many years know, and we have always used that flight!
Except my memory fails me, this flight was always really full in high seasons, and pretty much too in the low season. In fact, volunteers were always needed both in MIa and EZE because of overbooking.
There are many argentineas that spend their vacactions in Miami (many bought their properties in the last decade, when the AR $ peso was stronger) and there are many more living there. In my particular case, I have close familiars living at MCO, that also use this flight during the year to come to Argentina.
And, moreover, Miami is still a great connecting hub.
Yet, for the past 2 years, there have been much more americans using this flight, while during the 90's passangers were mostly argentineans!
It's great to know that we will have AA at EZE for plenty of years!

However, I would like to ask you guys something. Why is AA so profitable at EZE, and United has reduced its presence? Does anyone know if there is a probability that United will finish all flights to EZE?! I'm quite worried, because I was planning to join Star Alliance since Swiss is know oficially there, but I'm afraid that due to United's critical financial situation, services to Argentina will stop. How does United do in Argentina? And what about Delta?
 
dellatorre
Posts: 864
Joined: Sat May 13, 2000 2:50 pm

RE: Top Destinations From AA

Fri Sep 02, 2005 11:34 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 26):
In other words, GIG generates pretty good yields, but mostly to Europe. When it comes to the U.S., recent history has shown time and time again that GRU simply blows GIG out of the water as far as U.S.-Brazil yields and demand, as that is where almost all U.S. air traffic has been steadily moving over the last 10-15 years.

Well history is about to change, GIG is growing fast and will surprise many who keep saying it is a poor yield destination. AA is increasing flight to MIA to 12 weekly and DL is starting daily ATL-GIG non-stop later this year.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 37):
Rio's hey day is long gone. Since the 1960s, the city has suffered as business moved out to Sao Paulo, the capital moved to Brasilia, the tourists stopped coming in large numbers, and crime skyrocketed. Maybe it will resurface in the future, but it isn't the glamourous city it once was.

You are obviously a bit outdated here....... Rio may not be at the peak of its glory but it's hey days are far from gone!!

Rgs,

Neo
 
LAXintl
Posts: 20183
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: Top Destinations From AA

Fri Sep 02, 2005 11:39 am

Amazing how lately any discussion regarding Latin America turns into one regarding Rio de Janeiro.

I guess no one cares to discuss those destinations that ARE in the top for AA, the origional subject of this post.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: Top Destinations From AA

Fri Sep 02, 2005 4:23 pm

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 39):
You are obviously a bit outdated here....... Rio may not be at the peak of its glory but it's hey days are far from gone!!

I can testify to this fact. No doubt Rio still enjoys its glory, and they are far from gone.

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 40):
Amazing how lately any discussion regarding Latin America turns into one regarding Rio de Janeiro.

It is part of the discussion. What we are predicting is that in the near future GIG could be part of AA's top 5 most profitable destinations wordwide (since GRU already has two positions: MIA-GRU and DFW-GRU).

Going back to the original list, DFW-GRU is no. 4 in AA list, but was in counted with the two daily flights? It is well known that the additional daily flight undermined yields. I'm sure AA will make good use of the frequencies relocating them to GIG  Wink

Rgs,
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5050
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: Top Destinations From AA

Fri Sep 02, 2005 10:57 pm

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 40):
Amazing how lately any discussion regarding Latin America turns into one regarding Rio de Janeiro.

Rio is also part of Latin America and the reason for the discussions is that many people keeps thinking that Sao Paulo is the only good market in Brazil. We keep talking about GRU, EZE and all other places, not only Rio.

By the way and an off-topic, LAX is amazing, and the southern California is really a marvellous place. Even to someone from a beach city, California is
a fantastic! Probably i will come back to LA and San Diego very soon.

Rgds.
Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
Southamerica
Posts: 2302
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 2:56 am

RE: Top Destinations From AA

Sat Sep 03, 2005 1:41 am

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 40):
Amazing how lately any discussion regarding Latin America turns into one regarding Rio de Janeiro.

Very true, I was talking the same thing with a couple of users recently. Not that it's bad, but it's getting repetitive.

The arguments are always the same, that Rio is home to X,Y,Z companies, that it's the main congress city in LatinAmerica, and that AF is flying a daily 747 to GIG with 92% of average load (see? I even learned it already). Nobody is really denying Rio's importance as the metropoli it is, but I don't see all the world's airlines running to start flights to GIG because of those facts either.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 42):
Rio is also part of Latin America and the reason for the discussions is that many people keeps thinking that Sao Paulo is the only good market in Brazil.

What most people argue, including myself, is that GIG is far away from being as attractive for airlines as GRU is, pretty simple.

I honestly admire your spirit of defense for your city Felipe, but really, even if AF flies 54 daily 747s to GIG and only 1 to GRU, Sao Paulo's general superiority as a market won't be easily beaten.




SOUTHAMERICA
 
FLY2LIM
Posts: 1095
Joined: Thu May 06, 2004 6:01 am

RE: Top Destinations From AA

Sat Sep 03, 2005 2:07 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 42):
By the way and an off-topic, LAX is amazing, and the southern California is really a marvellous place. Even to someone from a beach city, California is
a fantastic! Probably i will come back to LA and San Diego very soon.

Felipe:
Next trip, fly up to Northern California, starting in San Francisco and work your way down to Carmel, Monterey, and Santa Cruz. You may think differently of southern California.  Smile

FLY2LIM
Faucett. La primera linea aerea del Peru.
 
Neo
Posts: 730
Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2001 8:21 am

RE: Top Destinations From AA

Sat Sep 03, 2005 2:15 am

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 43):
What most people argue, including myself, is that GIG is far away from being as attractive for airlines as GRU is, pretty simple.

I honestly admire your spirit of defense for your city Felipe, but really, even if AF flies 54 daily 747s to GIG and only 1 to GRU, Sao Paulo's general superiority as a market won't be easily beaten.

And what we are arguing is that this is about to change. GIG will grow a lot and will become much closer in numbers to GRU. OF COURSE GRU will still be the most attractive destination because of high yielding, bla, bla, bla.... What we are saying is that the great difference between GRU and GIG won't remain for too much longer... Why is that so hard to understand!??!?!?!?

Rgs,

Neo
 
Southamerica
Posts: 2302
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 2:56 am

RE: Top Destinations From AA

Sat Sep 03, 2005 2:29 am

Quoting Neo (Reply 45):
Why is that so hard to understand!?

It's not hard to understand, it's hard to believe. There's nothing to understand, you guys are simply predicting, but until now not much has happened to prove you right, and AF's daily 747 or IB's frequency increase are simply not enough to put GIG on-pair with GRU.



SOUTHAMERICA
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5050
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: Top Destinations From AA

Sat Sep 03, 2005 4:35 am

Hi SouthAmerica,

I respect all opinions here and even predictions, comments and all other ways of communication. Please do not understand that i believe GIG will be one day a GRU. The only think i every time try to defend is that Rio is not a bad yield market (and not in terms of market size). All times we are trying just to say that for a turistic and business destination like Rio de Janeiro there's space for improvements (probably Rio is one of the largest metropolitan areas without flights non-stop to New York for example).
Also, not only Iberia and Air France, but also Varig, Tap, American, very soon Delta (first week of flights shows some days with full flights) and others just because demand vs offer in Rio allows it. In domestic, Gol will start at least 11 new flights from GIG during the next 45 days (including early morning departures to BSB, CNF, CPQ and NAT non stop) and every day turns GIG as their hub for Northeast flights.
Rio lost a lot with violence, a lot with corporates changing their HQ to Sao Paulo, but it`s still the second biggest brazilian city with a 11 million metropolitan pop. Nowadays Sao Paulo keeps all connecting pax from other brazilian cities and even from Rio as the city receives 3 million turists per year and only 1,4 mm pax comes thru GIG (imagine that 1.6 million uses GRU-GIG and CGH-SDU shuttle service). Something that we always say here is that SAO is getting over-congested with both airports (CGH and GRU) operating over its capacity (and traffic keeps growing more than 15% per year). As you need 3 years to build a new terminal (GRU`s T3), how you think Brazil will handle the continuous growth ? GRU is high profitable due to its condition of sole int`l hub which attracts all new flights and improvements.

Sao Paulo is far superior, strong, rich, important (and several other words), but theres a even little market at other Brazilian cities.

Rgds,
Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5050
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: Top Destinations From AA

Sat Sep 03, 2005 4:38 am

Quoting FLY2LIM (Reply 44):
Felipe:
Next trip, fly up to Northern California, starting in San Francisco and work your way down to Carmel, Monterey, and Santa Cruz. You may think differently of southern California.

FLY2LIM

Fly2LIM, i believe you're 100% right as we were highly recommended to visit the cities along San Francisco-LA coast. As i probably need to come back to University of California at Irvine i will try to do this upon the end of this year. Thanks for your kindly comments as it increase my intention of visit northern California.

Do you live in Northern CA ? If so, lucky guy!

Rgds,
Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: Top Destinations From AA

Sat Sep 03, 2005 4:42 am

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 43):
Not that it's bad, but it's getting repetitive

I disagree. Felipe's post have been very instructive. I dont find anything repetitive.

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 43):
What most people argue, including myself, is that GIG is far away from being as attractive for airlines as GRU is, pretty simple.



Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 46):
It's not hard to understand, it's hard to believe.

And what we are stating is that GIG is growing and could (again) become a major hub. It is a FACT that GIG's traffic showed a growth of 70% from 2004 to 2005, of course relocation from SDU was the important factor here, but this adds to the fact that GIG is becoming a strong hub.

In the 1980s nobody could belive that GRU would become Brazil's major internationla hub...and nobody would ever think that CGH would be the busiest airport in South America. I think that in the future GIG will again be Brazil's no. 1 airport. Is it so difficult to understant this?

And I do hope Felipe will continue bringing his instructive posts, which I personally never found repetitive.  Smile

Rgs,