vfw614
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Why Is Lufthansa So Keen On The 146/Avro RJs

Tue Aug 30, 2005 6:13 pm

While there has been talk for ages about how painful the BAe 146/Avro RJs are maintenancewise, how slow they are, how cramped they are etc. etc., the Lufthansa group is adding more and more of them, even rather knackered 3rd hand 146s. Eurowings has added quite a few ex Air UK 146s recently, Swiss seems to have reverted their plans under Lufthansa's guidance and now dump the ERJ145s in favour of more ex BACX RJ100s. Lufthansa itself has 18 RJ85s, so altogether the group must now be operating more than 50 of those birds.

While this all might very well be just an interim solution after the Dornier 728 desaster, I would be interested to know why Lufthansa is so keen on the type - after all, they do not need 50+ for a few routes to LCY or FLR ? Is it because they would have to operate more A319 or 737-500s at mainline, while the RJ100s/146-300 can be operated by the subsidiaries ?

One other thing that makes me wonder is if the growth of the fleet is an indication that Lufthansa is willing to wait for the Bombardier C-Series instead of doing the obvious and order some Embraer 175/190s right now ? Particularly the 146s are approaching 20years, so they will not be around for that much longer.
 
EDDM
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RE: Why Is Lufthansa So Keen On The 146/Avro RJs

Tue Aug 30, 2005 6:16 pm

I guess they don't do it for the reason I would.. because it's the most beautiful narrowbody airplane ever!
 
TriStar500
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RE: Why Is Lufthansa So Keen On The 146/Avro RJs

Tue Aug 30, 2005 6:57 pm

It is probably a combination between lack of suitable alternative new designs and cheap leasing/ acquisition costs, which offset higher operating costs. From what has been available publicly, LH does not seem to be overly excited about the EMB-190 or the CRJ-900.
Homer: Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!
 
johnnybgoode
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RE: Why Is Lufthansa So Keen On The 146/Avro RJs

Tue Aug 30, 2005 9:44 pm

Quoting TriStar500 (Reply 2):
It is probably a combination between lack of suitable alternative new designs and cheap leasing/ acquisition costs, which offset higher operating costs. From what has been available publicly, LH does not seem to be overly excited about the EMB-190 or the CRJ-900.

i think Tristar hit the nail on the head with his statement. as a matter of fact, Air Dolomiti, which recently took 5 BAe146s, only needed 4. but due to their rather low technical reliability they got a fifth as an operation spare. they are so seriously cheap to get that you can have them sit idle on the ground.

as regards the CRJ900, it actually is currently under consideration to join the LH group fleet rather soon than late. anyone would like to venture a guess which airline would take them?  Wink

cheers
If only pure sweetness was offered, why's this bitter taste left in my mouth.
 
BostonGuy
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RE: Why Is Lufthansa So Keen On The 146/Avro RJs

Tue Aug 30, 2005 9:49 pm

I love the 146/Avro!

Gorgeous on the outside... my only flights on 146's have been 5 abreast seating. Quite comfy.
 
dstc47
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RE: Why Is Lufthansa So Keen On The 146/Avro RJs

Tue Aug 30, 2005 9:51 pm

Really, really cheap to lease. Plenty available.
 
CV990
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RE: Why Is Lufthansa So Keen On The 146/Avro RJs

Tue Aug 30, 2005 10:38 pm

Hi!

I know some people look to the BAe146 has an "abortion", but infact the airplane is great and very reliable. In Sep. 2004 I flew SWISS RJ85's from LIS/GVA/LIS and I was curious to see how it was! Well, I had a great fun flying the plane, very silent, very steady on flight, maybe not going so high has other airliners, I think we were at FL270, but excelent experience both ways!!! Anyway I can understand why LH and LX love that airplane!!!
Regards
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!
 
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garpd
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RE: Why Is Lufthansa So Keen On The 146/Avro RJs

Tue Aug 30, 2005 10:51 pm

Maybe its because it does its job very well.

Sure it isn't the most startling plane. But it does the job, and does it well.
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BestWestern
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RE: Why Is Lufthansa So Keen On The 146/Avro RJs

Tue Aug 30, 2005 10:58 pm

Quoting CV990 (Reply 6):
infact the airplane is great and very reliable

The 146 reliable?

Its slow, uncomfortable in a 3+3 layout, and a maintenance disaster area.

Is it true that the 146 jet engines were originally designed as Tank engines?
You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
EddieDude
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RE: Why Is Lufthansa So Keen On The 146/Avro RJs

Tue Aug 30, 2005 11:45 pm

I love the Avros. Recently flew an SN RJ85 from LHR to BRU and loved the experience. The carriers who configure them 2-3 get my respect because that configuration is very comfortable.

By the way, I flew in July 1995 from FRA to LCY and I cannot remember what type it was (I was younger and not so much into airplanes). Could it have been an AVRO? All I remember is that I thought it was a cool airplane!
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
vfw614
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RE: Why Is Lufthansa So Keen On The 146/Avro RJs

Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:19 am

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 9):
By the way, I flew in July 1995 from FRA to LCY and I cannot remember what type it was (I was younger and not so much into airplanes). Could it have been an AVRO? All I remember is that I thought it was a cool airplane!

Back then, the route was operated by Business Air (today bmi regional) on behalf of Lufthansa with a BAe 146-200.

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 8):
Is it true that the 146 jet engines were originally designed as Tank engines?

APUs.

Quoting Dstc47 (Reply 5):
Really, really cheap to lease. Plenty availab

How does it compare with the Fokker 100 ? Those are dirt cheap as well, faster ,more comfy and probably the smaller MNX nightmare compared to the 146. Austrian Arrows went for the Fokker 100s (well, they already operated Fokker 70s).

Quoting Johnnybgoode (Reply 3):

as regards the CRJ900, it actually is currently under consideration to join the LH group fleet rather soon than late. anyone would like to venture a guess which airline would take them?

Given that the CR7 was supposed to be a step-gap measure when it was ordered, that would be quite an interesting development.
 
jush
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RE: Why Is Lufthansa So Keen On The 146/Avro RJs

Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:52 am

Well i still think it's pretty but flying in it is rather a pain in the ass.
I didn't find it quiet at all but it was comfy (Eurowings leather (or fake leather?) seats).
Then again: It seemed to be an old airplane which had seen a LOT of smokers... everything was in this yellowish cigarette smoke color and you could still smell the smoke. Yuck!
There is one problem with airbus. Though their products are engineering marvels they lack passion, completely.
 
CV990
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RE: Why Is Lufthansa So Keen On The 146/Avro RJs

Wed Aug 31, 2005 1:00 am

Hi!

The DC-3 was also very slow and their 2-2 configuration was unconfortable too and they're still flying!!!!
regards
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!
 
apodino
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RE: Why Is Lufthansa So Keen On The 146/Avro RJs

Wed Aug 31, 2005 1:54 am

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 8):
The 146 reliable?

Its slow, uncomfortable in a 3+3 layout, and a maintenance disaster area.

But the layout I have always seen is 2+3, not 3+3 and its quite comfortable. Here at Air Wisconsin we have a few of them that have been workhorses for ever. Its been pretty reliable here, and in fact its all our senior pilots who have been here for 20 years who fly it, and with the downsizing of the fleet, they have to go to RJ's and most of them would rather fly the 146 than an RJ. Its got great performance as well out of difficult airports.
 
mrocktor
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RE: Why Is Lufthansa So Keen On The 146/Avro RJs

Wed Aug 31, 2005 3:08 am

Quoting Apodino (Reply 13):
most of them would rather fly the 146 than an RJ

Wild ass guess: it pays more?

mrocktor
 
apodino
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RE: Why Is Lufthansa So Keen On The 146/Avro RJs

Wed Aug 31, 2005 6:03 am

Quoting Mrocktor (Reply 14):
Wild ass guess: it pays more?

Not so much that, but most of the pilots flying our 146 have never flown a glass cockpitted airplane in their lives. The automation is over some of their heads, and learning to program the CRJ FMS is a challenge for some of them.
 
ZRH
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RE: Why Is Lufthansa So Keen On The 146/Avro RJs

Wed Aug 31, 2005 6:12 am

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 8):
uncomfortable in a 3+3 layout

LH and Swiss have a 2-3 layout. This is very comfortable. This plane is great to fly. Quiet and no wings which are in the way of your view out of the window. Best RJ.
 
Sabena 690
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RE: Why Is Lufthansa So Keen On The 146/Avro RJs

Wed Aug 31, 2005 6:21 am

Quoting ZRH (Reply 16):
LH and Swiss have a 2-3 layout

Correction: the AR8's of LH have a 3-3 layout.

Also BACX its AR1's have a 3-3 layout.

Frederic
 
ZRH
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RE: Why Is Lufthansa So Keen On The 146/Avro RJs

Wed Aug 31, 2005 6:39 am

Quoting Sabena 690 (Reply 17):
Correction: the AR8's of LH have a 3-3 layout.

Thanx for the info. This is really not comfi. But the Swiss 2-3 is really great, far better than any RJ (EMB 145 or CRJ etc.).
 
SlamClick
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RE: Why Is Lufthansa So Keen On The 146/Avro RJs

Wed Aug 31, 2005 6:43 am

Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 10):
Quoting BestWestern (Reply 8):
Is it true that the 146 jet engines were originally designed as Tank engines?

APUs.

I know it powered these aircraft;

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. . . but can someone tell me a refererence or a link to prove this engine which can produce as much as seven thousand five hundred horsepower was ever an APU. Or is that just an urban legend.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
gg190
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RE: Why Is Lufthansa So Keen On The 146/Avro RJs

Wed Aug 31, 2005 7:14 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 19):
. . . but can someone tell me a refererence or a link to prove this engine which can produce as much as seven thousand five hundred horsepower was ever an APU. Or is that just an urban legend.

It think it is just a legend. I heard a rumor it was an APU design for the 767, but I'm sure someone proved it wrong.

I'm sure that the Avco/Textron lycoming started life as a power-plant for helicopters, which as was pointed out it is still used for.
 
YOWguy
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RE: Why Is Lufthansa So Keen On The 146/Avro RJs

Wed Aug 31, 2005 7:23 am

Quote:
In 1969, Avco Lycoming began a program to develop the "ALF 502", a turbofan to power large business jets and small airliners, based on the company's T55 turboshaft for the Boeing Chinook helicopter.

The initial production series, the "ALF 502L", was certificated in 1980. It is a two-shaft geared front-fan engine, featuring a fan with two LP booster stages; an HP compressor with seven axial stages, followed by a single centrifugal stage; an annular combustion chamber; a two-stage aircooled HP turbine; and a two-stage LP turbine. A thrust reverser can be mounted, and the fan inlet is de-iced by engine bleed air. The initial version had a maximum takeoff thrust of 33.36 kN (3,400 kgp / 7,500 lbf). ALF 502L series engines power the Canadair Challenger 600 twin-engine business jet.

variant max thrust aircraft
ALF 502R-3 0.89 BAe 146

ALF 502R-5 0.93 BAe 146
ALF 502R-5 1.00 BAe 146
 
gg190
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RE: Why Is Lufthansa So Keen On The 146/Avro RJs

Wed Aug 31, 2005 7:28 am

Thanks YOWguy, knew I'd seen somewhere that it was originally developed for a helicopter.

Anyone know why a thrust reverser was never installed on any 146/avro engines? Is it just that it never needed them, it's STOL performance is good enough without them?
 
bomber996
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RE: Why Is Lufthansa So Keen On The 146/Avro RJs

Wed Aug 31, 2005 7:56 am

I remember flying on the BEA a few years back on a United Airlines flight from Jackson Hole, WY to Denver. Very nice flight. Seemed comfortable back then, but I've grown to 6' 2" over the years. But a great flight none the less.


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SlamClick
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RE: Why Is Lufthansa So Keen On The 146/Avro RJs

Wed Aug 31, 2005 7:59 am

Quoting Gg190 (Reply 22):
Anyone know why a thrust reverser was never installed on any 146/avro engines?

No thrust = no thrust to reverse.

Just kidding. I really liked the BAe-146. It was fun to fly, even if a bit doggy. No speed, no rate of climb. (we used to joke about getting a descend-only TCAS because you could not climb) I flew the Huey with the Lycoming T-53 but never flew the T-55. Don't have a real high opinion of the ALF-502 as two of my three jet engine failures were with that engine and they came just a month apart.

I'd have to guess that the weight and complexity of reversers would be wasted on the 146. It touches down pretty slow and can legally be landed unspooled. I've landed on 24L at LAX and made taxiway E-10 for the exit. I don't think I could duplicate that feat in a Cessna 150!
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
acjazzame
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RE: Why Is Lufthansa So Keen On The 146/Avro RJs

Wed Aug 31, 2005 8:45 am

From a mechanics perspective who has worked on both the 146 and the CRJ 900, I'll take that old 146 any day. The 146 can take MELS, it's built like a tank, and you know when you send it to an outbase it will always make it home. As for the CRJ 900, it needs constant attention, usually more 2 mels grounds it, and it's an overtime hog. I think Lufthansa has it right: stick with something you know is reliable rather than something that is new to you.

ACJAZZAME
 
flyXJT
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RE: Why Is Lufthansa So Keen On The 146/Avro RJs

Wed Aug 31, 2005 9:33 am

Quoting Apodino (Reply 15):
Quoting Mrocktor (Reply 14):
Wild ass guess: it pays more?

Not so much that, but most of the pilots flying our 146 have never flown a glass cockpitted airplane in their lives. The automation is over some of their heads, and learning to program the CRJ FMS is a challenge for some of them.

Well seeing as a CRJ capt.tops out at $89, and the 146 capt. at $111, I couldn't possibly see why they wouldn't want to take a pay cut, change bases, and learn a 'more complicated' airplane... boggled 
 
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csturdiv
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RE: Why Is Lufthansa So Keen On The 146/Avro RJs

Wed Aug 31, 2005 10:51 am

I just had to subscribe to Airliners.net to post on this topic. I love the 146, and I am going to miss them when ZW will no longer be flying as a United Express operator. I fell in love with them the first time I saw one on finals to 14L at ORD, which flew over me as I was stuck in the wonderful Chicago "expressway" traffic. I have flown on them twice, once between ORD and SDF and once between ORD and LEX. Both flights were quiet and very smooth on landings. I would much rather fly in a 146 over an ERJ, like I did earlier this year between ORD and RIC, which was a very long flight in my opinon....but not as long as the ORD-SAN flights that AA operates with the MD80s, man I hated those flights! I always looked forward to the Saturday morning 763 flights from SAN to ORD!
An American expat from the ORD area living and working in SYD
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Why Is Lufthansa So Keen On The 146/Avro RJs

Wed Aug 31, 2005 11:06 am

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 8):
Is it true that the 146 jet engines were originally designed as Tank engines?

 rotfl  Ok, just because it was a Textron design... (Textron designed the M1's engine.)

Yes, its derived from a turboprop/shaft design. But there is quite a bit of evolution.

The 146 is very quiet (although, its been many years since I watched one take off from John Wayne). But four engine economics... Tough to justify on flights less than 5 hours.

I'm curious to know what LH doesn't want an E-190... It would be interesting to know the fact of why.

Lightsaber
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acjazzame
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RE: Why Is Lufthansa So Keen On The 146/Avro RJs

Wed Aug 31, 2005 11:12 am

CSTURDIV, welcome to the forum, long live the 146!

ACJAZZAME
 
Rafabozzolla
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RE: Why Is Lufthansa So Keen On The 146/Avro RJs

Wed Aug 31, 2005 11:34 am

For me the question is: Why is LH so alergic to Embraers? Do you think that our German friends are simply unable to trust a Brazilian made plane?
 
JoFMO
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RE: Why Is Lufthansa So Keen On The 146/Avro RJs

Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:24 pm

I don't think that it is a general German problem. You shouldn't fotget that our small airline Cirrus is the first European operator of the E170. They fly them thrice daily between Saarbrucken and Berlin.

And LH seems to be sceptical with all regional jets today. They are waiting how the market develops. Otherwise they would have immediately ordered an replacement for the failed new Dornier jets they alreay had on order two years ago.
 
rootsair
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RE: Why Is Lufthansa So Keen On The 146/Avro RJs

Wed Aug 31, 2005 3:37 pm

I might book GVA-BRU-GVA just for the sake of flying the Avro.... Could anyone confirm me the fact that they have very noisy flaps ?
A man without the knowledge of his past history,culture and origins is like a tree without roots
 
LHSebi
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RE: Why Is Lufthansa So Keen On The 146/Avro RJs

Wed Aug 31, 2005 6:21 pm

Quoting RootsAir (Reply 32):
Could anyone confirm me the fact that they have very noisy flaps ?

Indeed they do! However, I believe the reason for that is not that they are noisier than other aircraft, but that since the wing is above the windows, the flap motor can easily be heard, giving the impression that the flaps are actually louder than those of other aircraft where as they are actually only more audible. I hope that makes sense!

But yes, on the AVRO they seem very loud!

Regards,

Sebastian
I guess that's what happens in the end, you start thinking about the beginning.
 
HT
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RE: Why Is Lufthansa So Keen On The 146/Avro RJs

Wed Aug 31, 2005 7:40 pm

Quoting LHSebi (Reply 33):
Quoting RootsAir (Reply 32):
Could anyone confirm me the fact that they have very noisy flaps ?

Indeed they do! However, I believe the reason for that is not that they are noisier than other aircraft, but that since the wing is above the windows, the flap motor can easily be heard, giving the impression that the flaps are actually louder than those of other aircraft where as they are actually only more audible. I hope that makes sense!

But yes, on the AVRO they seem very loud!

Loud or not - at least this sound is very distinctive  Smile
-HT
Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
 
mrocktor
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RE: Why Is Lufthansa So Keen On The 146/Avro RJs

Wed Aug 31, 2005 8:48 pm

Quoting Rafabozzolla (Reply 30):
For me the question is: Why is LH so alergic to Embraers? Do you think that our German friends are simply unable to trust a Brazilian made plane?



Quoting JoFMO (Reply 31):
I don't think that it is a general German problem. You shouldn't fotget that our small airline Cirrus is the first European operator of the E170. They fly them thrice daily between Saarbrucken and Berlin.

I agree it's not a German thing. Although I have absolutely no evidence, I do think that there may be bad blood at LH (at a corporate or merely personal level) due to the failure of the 728 (their darling project, in many ways designed to their specifications) and the success of the 170.

mrocktor
 
Delboy
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RE: Why Is Lufthansa So Keen On The 146/Avro RJs

Wed Aug 31, 2005 10:20 pm

jonnybgoode

Nobody buys aircraft as 'operational spares', irrespective of how cheap they are!! This isn't a buy one get one free offer, we are talking about a serious operation here.

It never ceases to amaze me at how little some contributors know about the running of an airline. I've neither the time nor the inclination to explain the huge flaws in your suggestion, however, those on this site who know what's what, will understand perfectly.
 
gilesdavies
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RE: Why Is Lufthansa So Keen On The 146/Avro RJs

Thu Sep 01, 2005 2:57 am

I know many people knock the old BAe146, but people seem to forget this was the first rocket powered aircraft to be certified with STOL capability and offer the economics of a turboprop aircraft for its size.

When I am at Birmingham Airport and see FlyBE, British Airways CitiExpress and Lufthansa BAe146's arriving and departing theya re still one of the quietest aircrafts operating.

For the age of the aircraft they still offer excellent fuel economy and remain a very reliable aircraft. Hence why BA was happy to transfer their fleet of brand new A319's to LHR from BHX and replace them with the BAe146's. This aircraft remains the backbone of BA serivces from UK regional airports to Europe.

Anyway from a patriotic side I have to defend the aircraft as was the last truly British aircraft produced. We'll see them fly for a good few years yet!
 
HT
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RE: Why Is Lufthansa So Keen On The 146/Avro RJs

Thu Sep 01, 2005 4:33 am

Quoting Delboy (Reply 36):
Nobody buys aircraft as 'operational spares', irrespective of how cheap they are!!

Would it be okay to lease a/c and have it sitting around at a airport in order to deploy it, should any other a/c of this fleet get into trouble ?
That´s what german charter operator HF is doing with a Airbus (A300 leased from LH, IIRC but please update me if I´m mistaken here) during the busy summer holiday season. Probably still cheaper than finding a suitable a/c for ad-hoc charter ops. But then this is one (1) spare-a/c for a big flying fleet (not necessarily only TUI´s german fleet, as the a/c could easily be deployed to other european TUI operators).
-HT
Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
 
David_itl
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RE: Why Is Lufthansa So Keen On The 146/Avro RJs

Thu Sep 01, 2005 4:34 am

Quoting Gilesdavies (Reply 37):
For the age of the aircraft they still offer excellent fuel economy and remain a very reliable aircraft. Hence why BA was happy to transfer their fleet of brand new A319's to LHR from BHX and replace them with the BAe146's. This aircraft remains the backbone of BA serivces from UK regional airports to Europe.

I find it quite strange why BACX's 146s + RJ100s seem to be unserviceable for a relatively large amount of time, with Titan and Flightline operating 146s on their behalf. Mind you at MAN, most of the BACX fleet seems to have "let's be unserviceable" moments.

David
 
col
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RE: Why Is Lufthansa So Keen On The 146/Avro RJs

Thu Sep 01, 2005 5:21 am

David,

I think it may have something to do with the BA "Not sure what we are doing at MAN" policy. Instead of serving the airport and passengers, it is probably easier to let the plane go tech - thus no hassles.

Shouldn't complain flew the BA 146 MAN-BRU-MAN mid August, they even had food! Flights left on time, arrived early, great cabin crew, wish they had that service over here.
 
vfw614
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RE: Why Is Lufthansa So Keen On The 146/Avro RJs

Mon Sep 12, 2005 6:50 am

Quoting Rafabozzolla (Reply 30):
For me the question is: Why is LH so alergic to Embraers? Do you think that our German friends are simply unable to trust a Brazilian made plane?

Rumour has it that they still have very bad memories about the EMB120 Brasilia operation of Lufthansa Cityline / DLT in the 1980s.....
 
legacy135
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RE: Why Is Lufthansa So Keen On The 146/Avro RJs

Mon Sep 12, 2005 7:05 am

Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 41):
Rumour has it that they still have very bad memories about the EMB120 Brasilia operation of Lufthansa Cityline / DLT in the 1980s.....

Anyhow, looking closer to the E-Jets, there is basically nothing than advantages over the CRJ700 and the 900....

And what other aircraft could they consider? It's not sure at all that the C-Series will ever be built and I doubt that LH/LX will fly the Avros for another 10 years.

By the way, Embraer is basically another company now, compared to Embraer in the 80-ties. Sure, not everything they build is gold and their support can be more than annoying, but looking at the product objectively and comparing with the others on the market: They are well above average.
 
TheSonntag
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RE: Why Is Lufthansa So Keen On The 146/Avro RJs

Mon Sep 12, 2005 8:05 am

Is Lufthansa City Line completely independant from LH mainline when we talk about airliner orders?

I don't know what you think, but to me it seems to be that LH and LH city line have been surprisingly quiet the last few years. We have not heard anything about a 737 replacement, we haven't heard anything after the 728jet desaster, and we haven't heard anything about the A300 replacements yet (thats another airplane size, but it also is part of LHs European strategy).

So what would you say to the theory that LH right now does not know what they want with their European fleet (or positively said, they are evaluating their strategy)? Germanwings just ordered several new A319s, on the other hand, LHs A320s and 737s are starting to age, just like their LH city line fleet.

So, to make things short, LH seems to be waiting. I don't know whether this is a good idea, but one thing is for sure: If they don't act soon, their fleet will start to look outdated compared to the LCCs in Europe, which mostly use more modern airliners... But I am sure that LH knows what they are doing...

Michael
 
HT
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RE: Why Is Lufthansa So Keen On The 146/Avro RJs

Mon Sep 12, 2005 5:21 pm

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 43):
But I am sure that LH knows what they are doing...

Indeed LH is known to keep reliable a/c in its fleet for prolonged periods rather than exchanging them frequently. Nowadays this should be seen as a positive thing, as those "ageing" a/c in LH´s fleet are still relatively modern when it comes to mx and operating costs. There´s no real need to invest tens of million $$ for a new A320 when you can operate an "old" but reliable one; the costs for mx might be lower for the new one, but the purchasing costs for a new a/c are significantly higher.
IMO it makes more sense to replace only those a/c that really need to be preplaced; any heavy investment into new a/c will be more profitable when investing into longhaul-a/c ...

Also those A300B4´s currently flying for LH are max. "only" 18 years old and could see some more years of service with LH (although the numbers of cycles is unknown to me). Seeing that the A300 production line is still open, are there any chances that LH could go for new A300´s with an updated cockpit (as a A300-replacement) ?

Not knowing about LH´s longterm fleet-planning, I "trust" them that they have a good one ...
-HT
Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
 
beechcraft
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RE: Why Is Lufthansa So Keen On The 146/Avro RJs

Mon Sep 12, 2005 5:37 pm

Hi all,

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 43):
Is Lufthansa City Line completely independant from LH mainline when we talk about airliner orders?

No, it´s not independent at all. We will be told by LH which A/C is to buy...

Quoting HT (Reply 44):
Not knowing about LH´s longterm fleet-planning, I "trust" them that they have a good one ...

I wouldn´t bet on it...

Denis
That's it! You people have stood in my way long enough. I'm going to clown college!
 
HT
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RE: Why Is Lufthansa So Keen On The 146/Avro RJs

Mon Sep 12, 2005 5:41 pm

Quoting Beechcraft (Reply 45):
Quoting HT (Reply 44):
Not knowing about LH´s longterm fleet-planning, I "trust" them that they have a good one ...

I wouldn´t bet on it...

Insider´s information to share ? Or just a general statement ?
-HT
Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
 
beechcraft
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RE: Why Is Lufthansa So Keen On The 146/Avro RJs

Mon Sep 12, 2005 8:26 pm

Just a general statement, learned the hard way on a day to day basis...
Just look at the mess with LHs "Regional Concept"...

To say it positive: I think the future is wide open... Smile

Denis
That's it! You people have stood in my way long enough. I'm going to clown college!
 
HAJ_OW
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RE: Why Is Lufthansa So Keen On The 146/Avro RJs

Mon Sep 12, 2005 11:08 pm

Hello,

I just would like to add some remarks to this.

Regarding the 3+3 and 3+2 upreast. With the 3+3 the are pretty tight but still comfortable compared to the CRJ and ERJ. LH flew their ARJ 85 with a 3+2 layout in the beginning, but this must have changed during the last years.

Regarding the flap noise. Yes that's a strange sound. You still can identify an Avro if it's retracting it's flaps a few kilometers away on it's approach to HAJ. The approach is about 5 km south of our home and the planes are actually lining up for the ILS there... But it's no mechanical sound. It's rather an aerodynamical sound, so it seems to be produced by the airflow.

Regarding the ER 170 and Cirrus. As far as I know Alitalia and LOT operate the ERJ170 for quiete some time. So I doubt if Cirrua would be the first operator in Europe.

Regards

HAJ_OW
 
JoKeR
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RE: Why Is Lufthansa So Keen On The 146/Avro RJs

Mon Sep 12, 2005 11:18 pm

I personally hate that damn aircraft; flew on it 4 times and out of those, one flight ended with a return and emergency landing at Zurich and the second with an aborted take-off at FRA (then back to gate and plane swap to an A319).

I avoid it like a plague...
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