keesje
Posts: 8592
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Boeing 787 Prod. Rate, Extra Investments Required

Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:00 am

Boeing is considering ramping up production. The rate question is complicated by the amount of extra investment required by the partners and suppliers.

Probably the last orders (such as todays delayed China Southern order ) have pushed Boeing to reconsider their current offerts.

http://www.flightinternational.com/A...ers+ramping-up+787+production.html

"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
flyinghippo
Posts: 688
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 12:48 am

RE: Boeing 787 Prod. Rate, Extra Investments Required

Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:08 am

Quote:
Orders and commitments for the new twinjet are now said to have exceeded 850.
Details of the growing firm order list, comprising 256 aircraft for 21 customers, emerged as the first all-composite nose test section was rolled out...


WHOA!!! Can't wait to see this list!!

Boeing really has to be careful about the supply chain... Since they have so many partners in the 787 project, one little problem in one of the suppliers could spell a big problem for 787 once it's into full production.
 
norcal
Posts: 1507
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2005 1:44 am

RE: Boeing 787 Prod. Rate, Extra Investments Required

Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:10 am

Another interesting blurb from the article: "Boeing is considering ramping-up 787 production from 2009 as it struggles to find available slots for prospective customers. Orders and commitments for the new twinjet are now said to have exceeded 850."

850? Who are these mystery customers? I would assume that FI is a reliable aviation information source, but I don't know. If this number is true there is no doubt that they should ramp up production.

EDIT: FH said the same thing as me at about the same time, sorry for the double post

[Edited 2005-08-30 17:11:36]
 
keesje
Posts: 8592
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

RE: Boeing 787 Prod. Rate, Extra Investments Required

Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:17 am

Quoting NorCal (Reply 2):
850? Who are these mystery customers?

I guess they included all options, MOU's, LOI's etc. in that number. Mostly those are not mentioned by A and B.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
tockeyhockey
Posts: 880
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2005 10:57 pm

RE: Boeing 787 Prod. Rate, Extra Investments Required

Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:18 am

Could the Long Beach facility be turned into a secondary assembly line? I know that that would make a whole lot of former MD people happy.

Are there space or technological issues that would keep this from being a viable way to increase production? Or are the slow down issues further back in the supply chain, and no extra assembly space would make a difference?
 
FriendlySkies
Posts: 3540
Joined: Fri Aug 13, 2004 3:57 pm

RE: Boeing 787 Prod. Rate, Extra Investments Required

Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:21 am

It only takes Boeing 3 days to put the planes together...the problem lies in getting all the partners to deliver parts faster. That said, a second assembly line may not really provide any benefit depending on how fast parts are made.
 
flyinghippo
Posts: 688
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 12:48 am

RE: Boeing 787 Prod. Rate, Extra Investments Required

Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:22 am

Does anyone have a list of most current 787 customers, and indicate who has signed the contract (firm orders), who has committed, and who only signed LOIs, including options?

Thanks
 
FriendlySkies
Posts: 3540
Joined: Fri Aug 13, 2004 3:57 pm

RE: Boeing 787 Prod. Rate, Extra Investments Required

Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:24 am

www.boeing.com

You can find all the firm orders there, as well as announced orders (look in the 787 news section for the latter).
 
User avatar
ClassicLover
Posts: 3936
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 12:27 pm

RE: Boeing 787 Prod. Rate, Extra Investments Required

Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:26 am

MOU and LOIs are not released to the public as a general rule.

Let's hope they do ramp up the planned production rate. It would be mad of them if they didn't... it looks like the 787 is going to be a moneyspinner both for the company that creates it, and the airlines that buy it.

Trent.
I do quite enjoy a spot of flying - more so when it's not in Economy!
 
VirginFlyer
Posts: 3879
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2000 12:27 pm

RE: Boeing 787 Prod. Rate, Extra Investments Required

Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:28 am

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 5):
It only takes Boeing 3 days to put the planes together

3 days to assemble? Are you sure you're not confusing the assembly time of one aircraft with the ammount of time between assembled aircraft coming of the production line?

V/F
"So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole earth." - Bahá'u'lláh
 
NAV20
Posts: 8453
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2003 3:25 pm

RE: Boeing 787 Prod. Rate, Extra Investments Required

Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:29 am

OK, superficially outrageous suggestion coming up.

Boeing seem literally to be overwhelmed by orders and commitments - my guess is that they simply cannot contract with later prospective buyers because the likely delivery dates are too remote. Meanwhile Airbus are racking in much fewer orders and facing a long period of adjustment and high costs while they design and produce the A350.

The sensible thing, from a 'whole industry' viewpoint, would be for Airbus to drop the A350 project and instead offer to build 787s on licence.

[Edited 2005-08-30 17:30:13]
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
FriendlySkies
Posts: 3540
Joined: Fri Aug 13, 2004 3:57 pm

RE: Boeing 787 Prod. Rate, Extra Investments Required

Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:32 am

Maybe I am...but seeing that most of the sections are coming "stuffed" and ready to be snapped together by Boeing, I might not be that far off...
 
norcal
Posts: 1507
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2005 1:44 am

RE: Boeing 787 Prod. Rate, Extra Investments Required

Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:39 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 3):
I guess they included all options, MOU's, LOI's etc. in that number. Mostly those are not mentioned by A and B.

What are MOU's and LOI's and what are the chances that those become commitments or firm orders?
 
flyinghippo
Posts: 688
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 12:48 am

RE: Boeing 787 Prod. Rate, Extra Investments Required

Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:42 am

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 7):
www.boeing.com

You can find all the firm orders there, as well as announced orders (look in the 787 news section for the latter).

Thanks, FriendlySkies.

But Boeing's website only has firmed orders which contracts are already signed. I'm trying to figure out what airline has signed LOIs but haven't signed the contracts yet, plus all the options.

Thanks
 
MidnightMike
Posts: 2810
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2003 10:07 am

RE: Boeing 787 Prod. Rate, Extra Investments Required

Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:48 am

Quoting Tockeyhockey (Reply 4):
Could the Long Beach facility be turned into a secondary assembly line? I know that that would make a whole lot of former MD people happy.

In theory yes, but, Boeing is going to start tearing apart the building and tooling as soon as the last 717 rolls off the line.....
NO URLS in signature
 
Paddy
Posts: 351
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2003 12:03 pm

RE: Boeing 787 Prod. Rate, Extra Investments Required

Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:51 am

The sensible thing, from a 'whole industry' viewpoint, would be for Airbus to drop the A350 project and instead offer to build 787s on licence.

The sensible thing would be for Airbus to use those resources to gain/maintain marketshare wherever they can. Just like the proposed 747Adv may capture some of the lower capacity end of the A380 market, the A350 should get some of the higher capacity end of the 787 mkt, as well as providing a more viable competitor to the 777. Their eggs are primarily in the VLA basket however, and I think that after its teething problems are sorted out, the A380 will eventually prove to be a moderate success. This is great news about the 787 though, it seems to have reset the balance between the two manufacturers. The next thing to look for is who can put out the best next generation narrowbody the fastest.
 
keesje
Posts: 8592
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

RE: Boeing 787 Prod. Rate, Extra Investments Required

Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:53 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 10):
The sensible thing, from a 'whole industry' viewpoint, would be for Airbus to drop the A350 project and instead offer to build 787s on licence.

Were it not the a359 is mainly brought out to help 'whole industry' not having to buy / get rid of the 772  stirthepot 

Quoting NorCal (Reply 12):
What are MOU's and LOI's and what are the chances that those become commitments or firm orders?

Memorandum of understanding, letter of intent. the kind of pieces of papers A&B make operators sign at conferences etc. Usually so many disclaimers / side conditions they aren't very valuable..
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
FriendlySkies
Posts: 3540
Joined: Fri Aug 13, 2004 3:57 pm

RE: Boeing 787 Prod. Rate, Extra Investments Required

Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:53 am

Quoting NorCal (Reply 12):
What are MOU's and LOI's and what are the chances that those become commitments or firm orders?

LOI is a Letter of Intent, basically the airline saying we want to order it. MOU is something of Understanding, which is the same thing I believe. These aren't published anywhere, so you won't know who they are unless the airline says it.
 
N79969
Posts: 6605
Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2002 1:43 am

RE: Boeing 787 Prod. Rate, Extra Investments Required

Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:59 am

If one considers why supply curves slope upward as quantity increases, I think you get a fairly straightforward picture of what is happening with the 787 program.
 
User avatar
garpd
Posts: 2308
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 9:29 am

RE: Boeing 787 Prod. Rate, Extra Investments Requi

Wed Aug 31, 2005 1:03 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 10):
OK, superficially outrageous suggestion coming up.

Boeing seem literally to be overwhelmed by orders and commitments - my guess is that they simply cannot contract with later prospective buyers because the likely delivery dates are too remote. Meanwhile Airbus are racking in much fewer orders and facing a long period of adjustment and high costs while they design and produce the A350.

The sensible thing, from a 'whole industry' viewpoint, would be for Airbus to drop the A350 project and instead offer to build 787s on licence.

HA HA! Too funny.

Even if by some remote chance they did this, Leahy would still insist the Airbus made 787 would be more efficient than Boeings. LOL.

[Edited 2005-08-30 18:04:34]
arpdesign.wordpress.com
 
leelaw
Posts: 4520
Joined: Sat May 29, 2004 4:13 pm

RE: Boeing 787 Prod. Rate, Extra Investments Required

Wed Aug 31, 2005 1:12 am

I say make sure you can "bake and snap" these birds as originally planned, before being tempted to shift to Plan B to chase nascent orders.
Lex Ancilla Justitiae
 
NAV20
Posts: 8453
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2003 3:25 pm

RE: Boeing 787 Prod. Rate, Extra Investments Required

Wed Aug 31, 2005 1:13 am

Quoting Paddy (Reply 15):
The sensible thing would be for Airbus to use those resources to gain/maintain marketshare wherever they can.

I'd agree, Paddy, except for the matter of 'lead-time' on new models. The shorter-ranged 787s will clearly snuff out Airbus' nearest competitor, the A330; and the A350 is years off (even if the A350 project gets the go-ahead next month). The A340 may still sell a few, but the 772LR will soon be competing with it in the ULH market, and that market is a small one anyway. The A380 is irrelevant in this context since Airbus won't make a dollar out of it for yonks; in fact, given the discounts offered to early customers, it will cost Airbus extra money to build and deliver it for several years.

That leaves the A320, which will likely still sell in numbers, but only on a 50/50 basis with the 737 at best. I don't think that is enough to keep Airbus going full blast, and maintain a positive cash flow, for the four years minimum it will take to get any sort of A350 into production.
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
N60659
Posts: 639
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 3:24 pm

RE: Boeing 787 Prod. Rate, Extra Investments Required

Wed Aug 31, 2005 1:24 am

Quoting FlyingHippo (Reply 13):
But Boeing's website only has firmed orders which contracts are already signed. I'm trying to figure out what airline has signed LOIs but haven't signed the contracts yet, plus all the options.

This webpage has done a great job of keeping track of signed orders, MoU's, LoI's and options (and powerplant selections as well):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_787#Orders_and_options

Hope this gets you a little closer to what you are seeking.

-N60659
Nec Dextrorsum Nec Sinistrorsum
 
RedDragon
Posts: 1096
Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2004 2:24 am

RE: Boeing 787 Prod. Rate, Extra Investments Required

Wed Aug 31, 2005 1:35 am

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 17):
LOI is a Letter of Intent, basically the airline saying we want to order it. MOU is something of Understanding, which is the same thing I believe.

MoU is a memorandum of understanding. I'm assuming that an LoI is rather more serious than an MoU? Or is the other way around? I never could remember...

Rich
 
Sinlock
Posts: 1631
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2000 12:55 am

RE: Boeing 787 Prod. Rate, Extra Investments Required

Wed Aug 31, 2005 1:39 am

Quoting Tockeyhockey (Reply 4):
Could the Long Beach facility be turned into a secondary assembly line? I know that that would make a whole lot of former MD people happy.

Are there space or technological issues that would keep this from being a viable way to increase production? Or are the slow down issues further back in the supply chain, and no extra assembly space would make a difference?

A large portion of the MD property was sold off years ago and a good portion of the buildings that were there were removed or replaced. Pretty much the only things left are the C-17 and 717 lines and a few other buildings, not enough for a large production line.
 
airfrnt
Posts: 1992
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 2:05 am

RE: Boeing 787 Prod. Rate, Extra Investments Requi

Wed Aug 31, 2005 1:41 am

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
Boeing is considering ramping up production. The rate question is complicated by the amount of extra investment required by the partners and suppliers.

Of course, you also omit that Boeing says that it is doing so because of the high numbers of orders that they have in their sales pipeline.

Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 8):
MOU and LOIs are not released to the public as a general rule.

Tell that to Airbus. Every announced "order" for the A350 is a MOU or LOI, not anything firm.

Quoting VirginFlyer (Reply 9):

3 days to assemble? Are you sure you're not confusing the assembly time of one aircraft with the ammount of time between assembled aircraft coming of the production line?

Nope, three day total final assembly.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 10):
The sensible thing, from a 'whole industry' viewpoint, would be for Airbus to drop the A350 project and instead offer to build 787s on licence.

Best troll I have read for a while.

I am sure a large portion of the second delay of the decision to launch the A350 is Airbus working to make it more competitive with Boeing.
 
NAV20
Posts: 8453
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2003 3:25 pm

RE: Boeing 787 Prod. Rate, Extra Investments Required

Wed Aug 31, 2005 1:43 am

Great site, N60659, thanks.

Funny thing though - the one fact you can't find anywhere (not even on that site) is the 787's fuel load.

Months back, a 'friend of a friend' gave me a figure. He works for P & W, so he was a bit sore at the time about their engines losing out. Speaking of the 8,500nm. models, he said (I quote), "I don't know exactly - but from the brief we got, I guess it won't be far north of 30,000 gallons."

If that's even close to the actual figure, for a range like that, it tells us why the airlines seem to be finding it 'irresistible.'

Edited PS: Oddly enough, Airfrnt, I wasn't trolling - or joking. Stranger things have happened in business.

[Edited 2005-08-30 18:49:04]
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
airfrnt
Posts: 1992
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 2:05 am

RE: Boeing 787 Prod. Rate, Extra Investments Required

Wed Aug 31, 2005 2:00 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 26):
Edited PS: Oddly enough, Airfrnt, I wasn't trolling - or joking. Stranger things have happened in business.

Boeing/Douglas has gone to work with Airbus three times. Everytime that they have, Airbus has crippled or outright killed the program, and then used that research to build their own plane (A320, A340, A380).

Doing any sort of Business with Airbus is a deadly gamble, as McD found out the hardway.
 
DAYflyer
Posts: 3546
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:35 pm

RE: Boeing 787 Prod. Rate, Extra Investments Required

Wed Aug 31, 2005 2:03 am

That 850 number sounds a bit off to me. Are we SURE it is not a misprint or something???????????

I would hope not...... but it sounds too high to me. 350 sounds much more likely or else the project would be sold out until about 2020.
One Nation Under God
 
NAV20
Posts: 8453
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2003 3:25 pm

RE: Boeing 787 Prod. Rate, Extra Investments Required

Wed Aug 31, 2005 2:23 am

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 27):
Doing any sort of Business with Airbus is a deadly gamble

I'm sure that's true, Airfrnt. In addition, I think it is highly unlikely that Airbus would seek any such arrangement, because EADS would never take such a decision, however compelling the 'business case' might be.

As it happens, I discovered just today that EADS is a company which is practically designed to be unable to take decisions - especially hard ones.

I wondered how the 'Joint Chief Executive' arrangement worked. After all, the very title is a contradiction in terms - you can only have one 'chief'. Turns out that if they can't agree, the decision is referred to the chairman of the Board. Then I found out that (believe it or not) there are 'Joint Chairmen' as well.

OK, I thought, it goes to a vote by the Board. But it turns out that there are eleven members - five appointed by Sogeade (which is effectively the French Government), five appointed by Daimler-Chrysler (no doubt with German government input), and one appointed by the Spanish government. And a Board decision requires seven members voting in favour.

So, effectively, if the French side and Daimler-Chrysler can't agree, any Board vote will be split 6/5 - meaning no decision. If nothing else, it explains why they spent six months arguing about who should be the 'joint CEOs', instead of facing up to the challenge posed by the 787........

All set out in here. If you find it difficult to believe, you're not alone, I felt the same way:-

http://www.eads.net/frame/lang/en/80...F00000000400004/5/61/31713615.html
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
airfrnt
Posts: 1992
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 2:05 am

RE: Boeing 787 Prod. Rate, Extra Investments Required

Wed Aug 31, 2005 2:32 am

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 27):
Boeing/Douglas has gone to work with Airbus three times. Everytime that they have, Airbus has crippled or outright killed the program, and then used that research to build their own plane (A320, A340, A380).

Doing any sort of Business with Airbus is a deadly gamble, as McD found out the hardway.

As clarification to my point, being a American company and trying to do a joint product with basically a European instutution has proved somewhat dicy over the last 30 years.
 
WINGS
Posts: 2312
Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 1:36 am

RE: Boeing 787 Prod. Rate, Extra Investments Required

Wed Aug 31, 2005 2:43 am

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 27):

Boeing/Douglas has gone to work with Airbus three times. Everytime that they have, Airbus has crippled or outright killed the program, and then used that research to build their own plane (A320, A340, A380).

Yeah right, keeping telling your self that. MD had its destination due to low productivity and the inability to modernize its airplanes.

Regards,
Wings
Aviation Is A Passion.
 
keesje
Posts: 8592
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

RE: Boeing 787 Prod. Rate, Extra Investments Required

Wed Aug 31, 2005 3:33 am

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 27):
Doing any sort of Business with Airbus is a deadly gamble, as McD found out the hardway.

BTW, what a new innovative A vs B approach, nobody came up with that b.ll yet.

We all know what happened after the cooperation of McD with Boeing  Sad

wait, I´m sure you´ll find another theory..
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Crew
Posts: 11735
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: Boeing 787 Prod. Rate, Extra Investments Required

Wed Aug 31, 2005 3:37 am

Quoting FlyingHippo (Reply 1):
one little problem in one of the suppliers could spell a big problem for 787 once it's into full production.

That's true of any integration program. Nothing special here.

Quoting FlyingHippo (Reply 1):
Orders and commitments for the new twinjet are now said to have exceeded 850.

 eyepopping  Ok, while a rumor, but if true... Boeing will have no trouble convincing vendors to pony up for more production.

Quoting Paddy (Reply 15):
The sensible thing would be for Airbus to use those resources to gain/maintain marketshare wherever they can.

True. If Boeing cannot meet early delivery slots, Airbus would be wise to have the A350 out in time to compete. The fact is one can only make a profit if one is flying something. That said...

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 25):

I am sure a large portion of the second delay of the decision to launch the A350 is Airbus working to make it more competitive with Boeing.

This usually happens when the competitor offers such a competitive product that the "new offer" isn't even worth considering. Example, when Pratt and GE first offered the GP7000 airlines flat out rejected the offer on technical grounds within days (even hours). Why? RR was willing to put more technology into the Trent 900 Than Pratt/GE. There was then some juggling of who would engineer what with both Pratt and GE having to agree to up the development budget in order to create a product worth being on the A380. The whole reason the 707 trumped the DC-8 is that when Boeing received the smaller order from Pan Am, Boeing realized they would continue to be an also ran unless they met the specification Pan Am really wanted (wider fuselage, longer range).

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
Lumberton
Posts: 4176
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 7:34 am

RE: Boeing 787 Prod. Rate, Extra Investments Required

Wed Aug 31, 2005 3:37 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 10):
Boeing seem literally to be overwhelmed by orders and commitments - my guess is that they simply cannot contract with later prospective buyers because the likely delivery dates are too remote. Meanwhile Airbus are racking in much fewer orders and facing a long period of adjustment and high costs while they design and produce the A350.

NAV20, your observation is exactly what the marketing department of Boeing wants the competition to think. Isn't the A350 "go/no go" decision pending soon? The 850 orders/committments/LOI/MOU number was clearly put out there to intimidate and give Airbus pause. In poker parlance, it's either "all in" (commit billions of euros) or fold. Personally, I don't think there's a chance in h**l that Airbus will not proceed, but this just raises the angst level a little.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
User avatar
garpd
Posts: 2308
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 9:29 am

RE: Boeing 787 Prod. Rate, Extra Investments Required

Wed Aug 31, 2005 3:39 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 32):
We all know what happened after the cooperation of McD with Boeing

What co operation?
Boeing bought them, period.

I have always considered it very strange than the A380 and A330 both look like carbon copies of defunct McD projects.
The A330 is the same size and configuration as the proposed DC-10 twinjet and the A380 the MD-XX

Now, I'm not saying that doing business with Airbus is deadly. But this has always struck me as suspicious.
arpdesign.wordpress.com
 
WINGS
Posts: 2312
Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 1:36 am

RE: Boeing 787 Prod. Rate, Extra Investments Required

Wed Aug 31, 2005 3:43 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 32):
We all know what happened after the cooperation of McD with Boeing

Sadly that is very true. Just wonder what would have been if Airbus had bought MD.

Regards,
Wings
Aviation Is A Passion.
 
User avatar
garpd
Posts: 2308
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 9:29 am

RE: Boeing 787 Prod. Rate, Extra Investments Required

Wed Aug 31, 2005 3:44 am

Quoting WINGS (Reply 36):

Sadly that is very true. Just wonder what would have been if Airbus had bought MD.

What is true?

As I said, Boeing bought McD. Period.
arpdesign.wordpress.com
 
WINGS
Posts: 2312
Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 1:36 am

RE: Boeing 787 Prod. Rate, Extra Investments Required

Wed Aug 31, 2005 3:45 am

Quoting GARPD (Reply 35):
Now, I'm not saying that doing business with Airbus is deadly. But this has always struck me as suspicious.

Oh no. Not another conspiracy theory.

Regards,
Wings
Aviation Is A Passion.
 
User avatar
garpd
Posts: 2308
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 9:29 am

RE: Boeing 787 Prod. Rate, Extra Investments Required

Wed Aug 31, 2005 3:51 am

Quoting WINGS (Reply 38):

Oh no. Not another conspiracy theory.

Just thinking out loud. Care to answer my question.
arpdesign.wordpress.com
 
keesje
Posts: 8592
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

RE: Boeing 787 Prod. Rate, Extra Investments Required

Wed Aug 31, 2005 4:10 am

Quoting GARPD (Reply 35):
The A330 is the same size and configuration as the proposed DC-10 twinjet and the A380 the MD-XX



Quoting WINGS (Reply 31):
Everytime that they have, Airbus has crippled or outright killed the program, and then used that research to build their own plane (A320, A340, A380).



Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 30):
As clarification to my point, being a American company and trying to do a joint product with basically a European instutution has proved somewhat dicy over the last 30 years.



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 29):
So, effectively, if the French side and Daimler-Chrysler can't agree, any Board vote will be split 6/5 - meaning no decision.



Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 25):
I am sure a large portion of the second delay of the decision to launch the A350 is Airbus working to make it more competitive with Boeing.



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 21):
I don't think that is enough to keep Airbus going full blast, and maintain a positive cash flow, for the four years minimum it will take to get any sort of A350 into production.



Quoting GARPD (Reply 19):
Even if by some remote chance they did this, Leahy would still insist the Airbus made 787 would be more efficient than Boeings.

Looks to me like people who (I think) know better are starting to make things up to make (any) point.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
User avatar
garpd
Posts: 2308
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 9:29 am

RE: Boeing 787 Prod. Rate, Extra Investments Required

Wed Aug 31, 2005 4:13 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 40):
Looks to me like people who (I think) know better are starting to make things up to make (any) point.

You are in no position to critisize anyone or accuse anyone of making things up.
arpdesign.wordpress.com
 
airfrnt
Posts: 1992
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 2:05 am

RE: Boeing 787 Prod. Rate, Extra Investments Required

Wed Aug 31, 2005 4:22 am

Quoting GARPD (Reply 35):
I have always considered it very strange than the A380 and A330 both look like carbon copies of defunct McD projects.

MD worked with Airbus on a joint plane that eventually became the A330. As for the A380 I think it's because both MD and Airbus wanted a double decker that didn't look like the 747, and didn't have cargo as it's primary mission. Once you accepted thoose critera, I think the plane is bound to look similar in the end.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 40):

Looks to me like people who (I think) know better are starting to make things up to make (any) point.

Airbus's history with MD (and the aforementioned A330/340) as well as with Boeing and the VLA market (What became the A3XX and A380) is fairly well documented.
 
WINGS
Posts: 2312
Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 1:36 am

RE: Boeing 787 Prod. Rate, Extra Investments Required

Wed Aug 31, 2005 4:22 am

Quoting GARPD (Reply 37):
What is true?

As I said, Boeing bought McD. Period.

That's right they did buy MD. Just look of what became of the MD division and all its product family. Do you need more explanation?

Quoting Keesje (Reply 40):


Quoting WINGS (Reply 31):
Everytime that they have, Airbus has crippled or outright killed the program, and then used that research to build their own plane (A320, A340, A380).


Hi Keeje, If you take the time to check that was not my QUOTE. It was the following.

Quoting WINGS (Reply 31):
Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 27):

Boeing/Douglas has gone to work with Airbus three times. Everytime that they have, Airbus has crippled or outright killed the program, and then used that research to build their own plane (A320, A340, A380).

Yeah right, keeping telling your self that. MD had its destination due to low productivity and the inability to modernize its airplanes.

Regards,
Wings

Regards,
Wings
Aviation Is A Passion.
 
keesje
Posts: 8592
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

RE: Boeing 787 Prod. Rate, Extra Investments Required

Wed Aug 31, 2005 4:44 am

Sorry Wings, my fault..

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 42):
MD worked with Airbus on a joint plane that eventually became the A330.

Other people believe the A330 is a natural progression of the A300, A320 and A300-600. Looking at the airframes, systems, cockpits I could even believe them..
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
B2707SST
Posts: 1258
Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Boeing 787 Prod. Rate, Extra Investments Required

Wed Aug 31, 2005 5:10 am

Quoting WINGS (Reply 43):
That's right they did buy MD. Just look of what became of the MD division and all its product family. Do you need more explanation?

Boeing bought Douglas because Douglas' commercial line was dying, not the other way around. The MD-11 was trounced by the 777 and the MD-80s were succumbing to the 737NG and A320. When Douglas could not get the financing or market credibility needed for the proposed MD-XX derivative, the writing was on the wall. McDD's main asset at that point was its military business.

--B2707SST
Keynes is dead and we are living in his long run.
 
airfrnt
Posts: 1992
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 2:05 am

RE: Boeing 787 Prod. Rate, Extra Investments Required

Wed Aug 31, 2005 6:02 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 44):

Other people believe the A330 is a natural progression of the A300, A320 and A300-600. Looking at the airframes, systems, cockpits I could even believe them..

Believe what you like, doesn't change the fact that Airbus had long technical discussions with MD about doing a joint plane, and even talking about the posibility of a merger, before cutting their ties and leaving MD to drift.

Quoting B2707SST (Reply 45):

Boeing bought Douglas because Douglas' commercial line was dying, not the other way around. The MD-11 was trounced by the 777 and the MD-80s were succumbing to the 737NG and A320. When Douglas could not get the financing or market credibility needed for the proposed MD-XX derivative, the writing was on the wall. McDD's main asset at that point was its military business.

I don't think anyone will disagree with the fact that Boeing badly managed the entire MDD merger. They are still in no position to make more headway in the millitary business (hint, they just lost the JSF competition), they mismanaged the 717 and killed the DC-10/MD-11 which could have been very profitable as a freighter.
 
PHXinterrupted
Posts: 461
Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2002 6:41 am

RE: Boeing 787 Prod. Rate, Extra Investments Required

Wed Aug 31, 2005 6:03 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 16):
Were it not the a359 is mainly brought out to help 'whole industry' not having to buy / get rid of the 772

Quoting NorCal (Reply 12):
What are MOU's and LOI's and what are the chances that those become commitments or firm orders?



Quoting Keesje (Reply 32):
BTW, what a new innovative A vs B approach, nobody came up with that b.ll yet.

We all know what happened after the cooperation of McD with Boeing

wait, I´m sure you´ll find another theory..



Quoting Keesje (Reply 40):
Looks to me like people who (I think) know better are starting to make things up to make (any) point.

So Keesje, why do you even post in the forum? I mean seriously, all you do is try to start crap with your biased airbus slant on everything.

You sure are a piece of work!
Keepin' it real.
 
FriendlySkies
Posts: 3540
Joined: Fri Aug 13, 2004 3:57 pm

RE: Boeing 787 Prod. Rate, Extra Investments Required

Wed Aug 31, 2005 6:17 am

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 46):
Believe what you like, doesn't change the fact that Airbus had long technical discussions with MD about doing a joint plane, and even talking about the posibility of a merger, before cutting their ties and leaving MD to drift.

Kind of ironic, Douglas said goodbye to Sud when the US-built, GE-powered Caravelle was being planned, and then went on to make the DC-9...hmm...
 
User avatar
garpd
Posts: 2308
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 9:29 am

RE: Boeing 787 Prod. Rate, Extra Investments Required

Wed Aug 31, 2005 6:27 am

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 48):
Kind of ironic, Douglas said goodbye to Sud when the US-built, GE-powered Caravelle was being planned, and then went on to make the DC-9...hmm...

Which you can't deny was a damn good aircraft  Wink
arpdesign.wordpress.com