fiaz
Posts: 92
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2005 2:34 pm

VS To YYZ

Fri Sep 02, 2005 12:25 pm

hey

i just hear some rumor from a good source that ,, that VS is starting to YYZ again... maybe in november.

Has anyone heard this aswell? is it true?

fiaz
 
fiaz
Posts: 92
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RE: VS To YYZ

Fri Sep 02, 2005 12:26 pm

sorry

i just heard****
 
SNBru
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RE: VS To YYZ

Fri Sep 02, 2005 7:32 pm

I remember they once operated YYZ. Am I correct that VS stopped serving toronto after 9/11?
Which equipment did/will they use?
 
accargo
Posts: 576
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2004 10:19 pm

RE: VS To YYZ

Fri Sep 02, 2005 7:42 pm

Yeah, there going to restart during one of the slower times of the year, on a "marginal" route (for them) with fuel prices climbing higher and higher.
Not Likely.
 
leisurejet
Posts: 43
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2005 8:30 pm

RE: VS To YYZ

Fri Sep 02, 2005 7:47 pm

Quoting SNBru (Reply 2):
remember they once operated YYZ. Am I correct that VS stopped serving Toronto after 9/11?
Which equipment did/will they use?

Yes SNBru you are correct, they operated the service for only a short while in the summer of 2001 and again correct, it was stopped shortly after the 9/11 incident.

At the time they used Boeing 747-200 equipment on the route, as shown landing in Toronto in this photograph....


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Felix Sieder



If they re-introduce the service, I would hazard a guess that initially it would be with a version of their Airbus A340, as November (if this is the starting date) is not exactly high season for this route and then perhaps bring on the Boeing 747-400's for the summer of 2006 !!!
 
GuyBetsy1
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RE: VS To YYZ

Fri Sep 02, 2005 10:04 pm

VS should forget about YYZ and perhaps go to YVR instead. There are way too many flights from YYZ to LHR already.
 
yooyoo
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RE: VS To YYZ

Fri Sep 02, 2005 10:16 pm

Quoting GuyBetsy1 (Reply 5):
VS should forget about YYZ and perhaps go to YVR instead. There are way too many flights from YYZ to LHR already.

Who cares how many flights are YYZ - LHR. I would love seeing VS in Toronto, purely for spotting purposes.  Wink
I am so smart, i am so smart... S-M-R-T... i mean S-M-A-R-T
 
A340Driver
Posts: 94
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RE: VS To YYZ

Sat Sep 03, 2005 6:31 am

They apparently considered wet leasing an Air New Zealand 744 to operate the route from this summer but this wasn't followed up.
 
Avianca
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RE: VS To YYZ

Sat Sep 03, 2005 6:34 am

Quoting GuyBetsy1 (Reply 5):
VS should forget about YYZ and perhaps go to YVR instead. There are way too many flights from YYZ to LHR already.

but the YVR LHR (London) sector is also very good served!

regards
Avianca
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
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Richard28
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RE: VS To YYZ

Sat Sep 03, 2005 8:05 am

Quoting Avianca (Reply 8):
but the YVR LHR (London) sector is also very good served!

Dont think so!!

choice of AC or BA - its a duopoly route.

A third carrier could spice things up.

Virgin Holidays also do some biz in Vancouver (through Air Canada), so they already have some feed.

As for YYZ - I'd love to see it, but with Mumbai going daily later this year, Dubai coming on line in March, and the Cape Town seasonal service about to re-start, dont think they have enough planes in the fleet to give YYZ another go.... yet.
 
skysurfer
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RE: VS To YYZ

Sat Sep 03, 2005 8:10 am

It would be nice if it was true. but that remains to be seen. Personally i'd like to see a YYZ - MAN route.....it's very underserved!!!

Cheers
In the dark you can't see ugly, but you can feel fat
 
ACdreamliner
Posts: 429
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RE: VS To YYZ

Sat Sep 03, 2005 8:54 am

i'd like any competition to BA  Wink
Where are you going?
 
ZK-NBT
Posts: 4928
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2000 5:42 pm

RE: VS To YYZ

Sat Sep 03, 2005 9:13 am

Quoting A340Driver (Reply 7):
They apparently considered wet leasing an Air New Zealand 744 to operate the route from this summer but this wasn't followed up.

Really? NZ have no spare 744 capacity.
 
jacobin777
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RE: VS To YYZ

Sat Sep 03, 2005 9:15 am

Ok..this might be a silly question, but why doesn't VS have/get any A-330's in their fleet? Since it wouldn't be a big problem to have/get pilots certified for an A-330 (due to "fleet commonality")........I think it would allow VS to fly other thinner routes.......for them..its either large-haul (343/346/747) or no-haul.....I think they are limiting themselves by having such a limited fleet....

the A330 could be good enough to use year round in routes such as LHR-YYZ or LHR-ORD (toughie, but possible-since they did operate to ORD at one time...I flew on VS ORD-LHR-ORD...service sucked, but plane was full!)

actually, with EK having such a large service to LHR/LGW, I would think that VS would be better off serving DXB on an A330 first, rather than going on a larger widebody......

just an idea......
"Up the Irons!"
 
Cruiser
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RE: VS To YYZ

Sat Sep 03, 2005 9:33 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 13):
Ok..this might be a silly question, but why doesn't VS have/get any A-330's in their fleet? Since it wouldn't be a big problem to have/get pilots certified for an A-330 (due to "fleet commonality")........I think it would allow VS to fly other thinner routes.......for them..its either large-haul (343/346/747) or no-haul.....I think they are limiting themselves by having such a limited fleet....

Many of VS' marketing campaigns have been based on the 'Four Engines For Langhaul' philosophy. I think that Virgin will have to move to the 2-holers fairly soon!

James
Leahy on Per Seat Costs: "Have you seen the B-2 fly-by at almost US$1bn a copy? It has only 2 seats!"
 
behramjee
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RE: VS To YYZ

Sat Sep 03, 2005 9:35 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 13):
Ok..this might be a silly question, but why doesn't VS have/get any A-330's in their fleet?

Because VS did a survey few years ago and it revealed that its pax prefer flying a 4 engined aircraft rather than a 2 engined one and this was one of the main factor pointed out by Branson on BBC in July 2004 as to why he chose the A 346 over the B 777-300ERs.

Also from the very beginning VS has only been operating 4 engine types from the B 742s-744s then A 343s-346s and soon A 380s.
 
mainMAN
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Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2005 7:55 am

RE: VS To YYZ

Sat Sep 03, 2005 9:41 am

Quoting Skysurfer (Reply 10):
It would be nice if it was true. but that remains to be seen. Personally i'd like to see a YYZ - MAN route.....it's very underserved!!!

If you look at CAA figures for passengers to Toronto for the last few years, London's share has been increasing slowly, while from the rest of the UK, the market is declining.

There's no given reason for this, but I suspect that there's no longer the same bulk of emigrants to Ontario and the same levels of VFR traffic that there were say, 10 to 20 years ago.

The MAN-YYZ route is served fantastically well in the peak summer months, but only once or twice a week throughout the winter. From the UK, YYZ is a relatively low yield destination, and v.v.

I'd like to see one dominant airline on the route. Air Canada operated year round for several years until 2001 (I think), but in recent years there's only been one weekly winter flight, and possibly two for 2005/06

[Edited 2005-09-03 02:43:36]

[Edited 2005-09-03 02:44:29]
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24612
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: VS To YYZ

Sat Sep 03, 2005 9:46 am

Quoting Richard28 (Reply 9):

Dont think so!!

choice of AC or BA - its a duopoly route.

Hardly. BA offers 10 weekly flights and AC offers three daily flights during the summer - more than enough flights. Plus Air Transat flies scheduled YVR-LGW service and there are plenty of charter flights on Zoom and Thomas Cook.
a.
 
martinairyyz
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Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2003 6:42 am

RE: VS To YYZ

Sat Sep 03, 2005 10:05 am

Quoting GuyBetsy1 (Reply 5):
VS should forget about YYZ and perhaps go to YVR instead. There are way too many flights from YYZ to LHR already.



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 17):
Hardly. BA offers 10 weekly flights and AC offers three daily flights during the summer - more than enough flights

Yeah... 2 airlines... compare that to JFK's 8 or so, and you'll know why tickets are so high on the YYZ-LHR route, especially becuase it is mainly Error Canada controlled!
Chelsea Football Club supporter.
 
User avatar
Richard28
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Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:42 am

RE: VS To YYZ

Sat Sep 03, 2005 10:12 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 17):
Hardly. BA offers 10 weekly flights and AC offers three daily flights during the summer - more than enough flights. Plus Air Transat flies scheduled YVR-LGW service and there are plenty of charter flights on Zoom and Thomas Cook.

Still for core high yield biz traffic, and non O&D traffic it's still only AC or BA. The prices to YVR relct this - they are not commensurate with other flights of similar length (compare with LHR-LAX/LHR-SFO for example).

Quoting Cruiser (Reply 14):
Many of VS' marketing campaigns have been based on the 'Four Engines For Langhaul' philosophy. I think that Virgin will have to move to the 2-holers fairly soon!

One of the reasons they dont have two holers is because of fleet utilisation. for example, when a "short flight" arrives at LHR (eg from JFK) that same plane then flies to NRT later in the afternoon.

To have A330's on the fleet would mean the incoming plane could not depart until the next "shorter" longhaul.

This would decrease fleet utilisation and flexiblity considerably - and that is a big factor in the cost of an airline.

[Edited 2005-09-03 03:14:21]
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: VS To YYZ

Sat Sep 03, 2005 10:41 am

Quoting Cruiser (Reply 14):
Many of VS' marketing campaigns have been based on the 'Four Engines For Langhaul' philosophy. I think that Virgin will have to move to the 2-holers fairly soon!



Quoting Behramjee (Reply 15):
Because VS did a survey few years ago and it revealed that its pax prefer flying a 4 engined aircraft rather than a 2 engined one and this was one of the main factor pointed out by Branson on BBC in July 2004 as to why he chose the A 346 over the B 777-300ERs.

Also from the very beginning VS has only been operating 4 engine types from the B 742s-744s then A 343s-346s and soon A 380s.

true....but VS's situation is changing also...I think its a bit arrogant to think market situations haven't changed....and we all know pax knowledge...not to mention, there are enough twins flying over the various ponds quite efficiently....I think VS purchaing the A-346's has more to do with the fact SRB mentioned that he eventually wanted to see VS go to an all Airbus fleet (it was mentioned in the BBC during the A-380 rollout this past January).

Quoting Richard28 (Reply 19):
To have A330's on the fleet would mean the incoming plane could not depart until the next "shorter" longhaul.

This would decrease fleet utilisation and flexiblity considerably - and that is a big factor in the cost of an airline.

with enough routes available for picking, I think VS would be able to utilise a small-sized fleet of A-330's which wouldn't hamper their fleet utilisation and flexibility
"Up the Irons!"
 
accargo
Posts: 576
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2004 10:19 pm

RE: VS To YYZ

Sat Sep 03, 2005 8:51 pm

Quoting MartinairYYZ (Reply 18):
Yeah... 2 airlines... compare that to JFK's 8 or so, and you'll know why tickets are so high on the YYZ-LHR route, especially becuase it is mainly Error Canada controlled!

News for you martinair, AC doesn't control who can fly YYZ-LHR-YYZ. VS is free to add flights anytime it wants to. AC just operates a sched service that appeals to the flying public, with multiple departures daily.  Smile
 
cayman
Posts: 739
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2003 2:28 am

RE: VS To YYZ

Sat Sep 03, 2005 10:49 pm

Quoting Fiaz (Thread starter):
Hardly. BA offers 10 weekly flights and AC offers three daily flights during the summer - more than enough flights. Plus Air Transat flies scheduled YVR-LGW service and there are plenty of charter flights on Zoom and Thomas Cook

Actually I think BA operates 17 weekly in the summer and AC definitely operates 5x daily--lot of capacity.
 
User avatar
Richard28
Posts: 1622
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:42 am

RE: VS To YYZ

Sat Sep 03, 2005 11:34 pm

Quoting CayMan (Reply 22):
Actually I think BA operates 17 weekly in the summer and AC definitely operates 5x daily--lot of capacity.

AC only has three flights in timetable to LHR

AC830/831, AC854/855, AC896/897
 
B742
Posts: 3562
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 12:48 am

RE: VS To YYZ

Sat Sep 03, 2005 11:51 pm

I'm suprised no one has mentioned YUL, would demand be enough for a VS service?

I would be happy to see VS return to any Canadian City  Smile

Today (Sat 03 September) there are 9 flights to YYZ
AC869 - 343
AC863 - 763
BA093 - 744
AC857 - 333
BA099 - 772
AC849 - 333
BA097 - 772
AC859 - 763
TS523 - 310 (LGW)

Today (Sat 03 September) there are 6 flights to YVR
AC831 - 763
BA087 - 744
AC855 - 333
AC897 - 763
BA085 - 744
TS503 - 330 (LGW)

Today (Sat 03 September) there are 3 flights to YUL
AC867 - 763
AC865 - 763
BA095 - 772

Rob!  Smile
 
dogfighter2111
Posts: 1867
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 3:02 am

RE: VS To YYZ

Sun Sep 04, 2005 12:07 am

Quoting Cruiser (Reply 14):
Many of VS' marketing campaigns have been based on the 'Four Engines For Langhaul' philosophy. I think that Virgin will have to move to the 2-holers fairly soon!

Virgin used to operate the A320, A321, B737-400 and B767-300. So they have previously sued '2 holers'

Thanks
Mike
 
behramjee
Posts: 4344
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2003 4:56 am

RE: VS To YYZ

Sun Sep 04, 2005 1:04 am

Quoting GuyBetsy1 (Reply 5):
VS should forget about YYZ and perhaps go to YVR instead. There are way too many flights from YYZ to LHR already.

Remember that YYZ is a higher yielding destination to serve than YVR and thus looking at it from that perspective, VS would probably fare better in YYZ than YVR. To start things off, a daily A 343 or A 346 is perfect for LHR-YYZ-LHR provided it connects conveniently to their India bound flights as well as interlining flights of EK and GF with whom they have SPA agreements with for Gulf and some other Asian routes.

Quoting Dogfighter2111 (Reply 25):

Virgin used to operate the A320, A321, B737-400 and B767-300. So they have previously sued '2 holers'

Virgin SUN uses A 320-321s for UK-ATH and some domestic flights + charters...the B 763ER was wet leased for a summer or two many years ago...but that was a wet lease...VS has never ever ordered 2 engined long haul aeroplanes.
 
dogfighter2111
Posts: 1867
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 3:02 am

RE: VS To YYZ

Sun Sep 04, 2005 1:52 am

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 26):
Virgin SUN uses A 320-321s for UK-ATH and some domestic flights + charters...the B 763ER was wet leased for a summer or two many years ago...but that was a wet lease...VS has never ever ordered 2 engined long haul aeroplanes.

I never said they ordered them, but Virgin Atlantic Airways did operate them. Here are some pics to prove it:

A320:
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © JetPix


A321:
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Paul Dopson - AirTeamImages


B737:
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Normando Carvalho Jr.


B767:
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Carlos Aleman - SJU Aviation Photography



Thanks
Mike
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24612
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: VS To YYZ

Sun Sep 04, 2005 6:33 am

Quoting CayMan (Reply 22):

Actually I think BA operates 17 weekly in the summer and AC definitely operates 5x daily--lot of capacity.

On YYZ-LHR. I was talking about YVR-LHR.
a.
 
Avianca
Posts: 5279
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 5:33 am

RE: VS To YYZ

Sun Sep 04, 2005 6:43 am

Quoting Richard28 (Reply 9):
choice of AC or BA - its a duopoly route.



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 17):
Quoting Richard28 (Reply 9):

Dont think so!!

choice of AC or BA - its a duopoly route.

Hardly. BA offers 10 weekly flights and AC offers three daily flights during the summer - more than enough flights. Plus Air Transat flies scheduled YVR-LGW service and there are plenty of charter flights on Zoom and Thomas Cook.

agree, LHR-YVR is very well served!

But I think VS should not enter the Canadian market as it´s very good served from LHR.

The should use the aircraft for new Asia flights or even enter into the South or Middle-American Market.

regards
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
SafetyDude
Posts: 3654
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2001 10:02 am

RE: VS To YYZ

Sun Sep 04, 2005 7:29 am

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 15):
Because VS did a survey few years ago and it revealed that its pax prefer flying a 4 engined aircraft rather than a 2 engined one and this was one of the main factor pointed out by Branson on BBC in July 2004 as to why he chose the A 346 over the B 777-300ERs.

The majority of the pax answered "eight engines or more".

Statistics only tell the truth that wants to be heard.  Wink

-Will
"She Flew For What We Stand For"
 
martinairyyz
Posts: 1188
Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2003 6:42 am

RE: VS To YYZ

Sun Sep 04, 2005 8:18 am

Quoting Accargo (Reply 21):
News for you martinair, AC doesn't control who can fly YYZ-LHR-YYZ.

I think you nead to re-undestand my post....... the route is AC-controlled, meaning that they have the monopoly of the route, or you can call it a very unfair oligopoly.....
Chelsea Football Club supporter.
 
accargo
Posts: 576
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2004 10:19 pm

RE: VS To YYZ

Sun Sep 04, 2005 7:28 pm

Quoting MartinairYYZ (Reply 31):
I think you nead to re-undestand my post....... the route is AC-controlled, meaning that they have the monopoly of the route, or you can call it a very unfair oligopoly.....

You need to understand monopoly, or oligopoly. AC is NOT preventing anyone from operating YYZ-LHR. If AC had that power, then it would be a monopoly. AC IS the dominant carrier on that route, and I guess that is what bothers you. BA has the LHR slot's to add as many frequencies as it wishes at anytime. It chooses not to. If VS wants to operate, it can do so at anytime. It chooses not to. AC is the dominant carrier in YYZ, just as BA is in LHR, AA in DFW, QF in SYD, LH in FRA.
 
egmcman
Posts: 729
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 6:28 pm

RE: VS To YYZ

Sun Sep 04, 2005 7:57 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 13):
actually, with EK having such a large service to LHR/LGW, I would think that VS would be better off serving DXB on an A330 first, rather than going on a larger widebody......

They are going start services to DXB 27 March 2006 initially 4 times a week then 5 times a week from 1 May and daily from 1 June. Airbus A340's are going to be used on the route.

The A320 and A321 and 734 were used on services to Athens from Heathrow and Gatwick.

Cheers

egmcman
 
SNBru
Posts: 149
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2005 10:33 pm

RE: VS To YYZ

Sun Sep 04, 2005 9:20 pm

Quoting Richard28 (Reply 9):
Dont think so!!

choice of AC or BA - its a duopoly route.

A third carrier could spice things up.

KLM is also serving YVR from Europe, not from UK though.

Quoting Skysurfer (Reply 10):
As for YYZ - I'd love to see it, but with Mumbai going daily later this year, Dubai coming on line in March, and the Cape Town seasonal service about to re-start, dont think they have enough planes in the fleet to give YYZ another go.... yet.

Don't forget Etihad Airways who are coming to YYZ from October.
 
STARalliance24
Posts: 371
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2005 5:35 am

RE: VS To YYZ

Sun Sep 04, 2005 9:38 pm

Quoting B742 (Reply 24):
Today (Sat 03 September) there are 3 flights to YUL
AC867 - 763
AC865 - 763
BA095 - 772

I'm pretty sure TS flies YUL-LGW.
 
B742
Posts: 3562
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 12:48 am

RE: VS To YYZ

Sun Sep 04, 2005 9:50 pm

Quoting STARalliance24 (Reply 35):
I'm pretty sure TS flies YUL-LGW.

Yes they do, but not on the 3rd September they didn't!

Rob!