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viasa
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Avensa - New B727?

Sat Sep 03, 2005 9:00 pm

We talk some weeks ago about the restart of Avensa.
( Avensa Is Back! (by Chiguire Jun 29 2005 in Civil Aviation) )

Now I've found this picture:


MyAviation.net photo:
Click here for bigger photo!
Photo © Juan jose



Is it possible that Avensa has take over this former Aeropostal plane to restart it's operations?

Registration of this white plane ist YV-18C (c/n 21984/1574).
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Avensa - New B727?

Sat Sep 03, 2005 9:18 pm

I see it is one of the B-727-200 that was re-engined with two JT-8D-219s and kept the centerline JT-8D-17, but removed the thrust reverser.

Quoting Viasa (Thread starter):
Is it possible that Avensa has take over this former Aeropostal plane to restart it's operations?

Registration of this white plane ist YV-18C (c/n 21984/1574).

I hope so.
 
Chiguire
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RE: Avensa - New B727?

Sat Sep 03, 2005 10:11 pm

Quoting Viasa (Thread starter):

Is it possible that Avensa has take over this former Aeropostal plane to restart it's operations?

Interesting news. But up to now there is no sign of Avensa. And I wonder what kind of routes they want to fly this bird (IF it is Avensa).
All domestic routes are served. The 727 is quite large for airports such as CBL, the only one I can imagine that is a bit underserved.
Venezuela is in CAT II for the US, so this is no option either ?
Honestly I don't see the market for so many airlines.

BTW: There will be a new Airline starting up in Oro Negro Airport Cabimas (East of Maracaibo Lake). The name will be Kavok:
http://www.airliners.net/discussions...general_aviation/read.main/2308235
 
PRAirbus
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RE: Avensa - New B727?

Sun Sep 04, 2005 3:00 am

Good luck AVENSA, what a pity! Too much capacity in the Venezuelan skies...too many airlines. Avensa should have taken Viasa's place when Viasa went bust. They never modernized their fleet and apparently management was ineffective. At least they had a prestigious name...Why would they try to restart with "old" recycled jets??? No one will take them seriously...Venezuela needs a strong major airline for international and just 1 or 2 for domestic. They need to lease "new" or more modern airplanes and get their act together. Wonder if the government's red-tape is preventing major foreign investments in the likes of LAN or Synergy. That might save Venezuelan commercial aviation. Any suggestions???
 
LatinPlane
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RE: Avensa - New B727?

Sun Sep 04, 2005 4:49 am

Viasa:

It would be interesting to see what the owners of Avensa are up to; "The Boulton Family". You should e-mail the photographer to see if he has the info correct and what he knows about the 727. By the way, can someone in Caracas call Avensa's number to find out what's going on?

 Smile LatinPlane
Pan Am - The World's Most Experienced Airline.
 
civilav
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RE: Avensa - New B727?

Sun Sep 04, 2005 11:48 am

LatinPlane,

I would like to remind you that the Boulton family nominally own the majority of the airline stock (for what it is worth since the airline is totally bankrupt)...but in 1976 the old PANAM sold its 30% stake in Avensa - which it had held since its inception in the late 1940s (no coincidence the logo, white fuselage, blue bold letters, etc, etc) to the Venezuelan Government.

In effect, the Boulton family, as such, hold slightly over 50% of the airline's shares.. the Government is the second major shareholder !
Avensa's debts are so enormous I doubt they would ever start services abroad as their planes might be impounded to pay creditors with lawsuites pending left and right. This is the reason why SantaBarbara took over services to Spain with its own aircraft.. Avensa's bills at European airports could simply not be met.

That was the reason, too, by the way why the name VIASA has never been floated again. Its debts are reckoned to still be over US $ 7 MM not taking into consideration its pension and retirement fund !

Greetings from Cancun.
 
Chiguire
Posts: 1848
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2004 5:11 pm

RE: Avensa - New B727?

Sun Sep 04, 2005 6:11 pm

Quoting Civilav (Reply 5):
That was the reason, too, by the way why the name VIASA has never been floated again. Its debts are reckoned to still be over US $ 7 MM not taking into consideration its pension and retirement fund !

Although these are peanuts taking into consideration the money that our President is spending all over the continent for even less important things !

Quoting Civilav (Reply 5):
Avensa's debts are so enormous I doubt they would ever start services abroad as their planes might be impounded to pay creditors with lawsuites pending left and right

Sure, but Avensa did not fly to that many countries. So a service to Bolivia (Viru Viru) or any other country Avensa did not fly to would maybe be possible.
Apart of that, I would expect most of the debts to be "gone" after so many years. If - after 15 years - an airline legally named, let's say "Avensa - Airline of Venezuela S.A." (not Aerovias de...) would land in Mexico City, I don't think they could impound their aircraft any more.
 
civilav
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RE: Avensa - New B727?

Tue Sep 06, 2005 1:44 am

Chigüire,

AVENSA is a trade mark name... you cannot just simply concoct another airline with the same name. For your information, Avensa debts were mostly in Europe (Italy, Portugal and Spain - they flew daily with 2 DC-10s please remember) but equally with suppliers in the States (they kept a twice-daily flight to Miami till its demise) from catering to paper towels, from landing charges to fuel.
No serious or reputable aircraft dealer (Falcon, Transmeridian, you name it) would ever consider leasing Avensa planes with such a ghastly management record.

Greetings from Cancún !
 
Chiguire
Posts: 1848
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RE: Avensa - New B727?

Tue Sep 06, 2005 2:01 am

Quoting Civilav (Reply 7):
AVENSA is a trade mark name...

Yes, so was Aeropostal (Former "Linea Aeropostal Venezolana"), now Aeropostal "Alas de Venezuela".
This is exactly what I mean. And if there was another management purchasing the trade name as you say, using another legal name (as Aeropostal did), then I don't see why any lessor should refuse to lease them planes ?
Most of them have enough old aircraft parked. And where is the difference if they have them parked or lease it to an airline that maybe at least pays something ?
Another thing might be US-operations by another carrier e.g. Transmeridian or whoever. Here I agree, it will be almost impossible.
 
civilav
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RE: Avensa - New B727?

Tue Sep 06, 2005 4:30 am

Chigüire,

Let me add one extra and final note: Aeropostal (LAV) did not go bankrupt !! It WAS ALWAYS A DEFICIT-RUN STATE ENTERPRISE SINCE ITS CREATION IN 1930 AND NEVER EVER TURNED A PROFIT IN ITS ENTIRE LIFESPAN !!
The State closed it down on August 31, 1994 because it was unsustainable and it could no longer be maintained at taxpayers' expense. It was offered for sale 3 times that year (through the Venezuelan Investment Fund - FIV) and there were no bidders owing to its gigantic debt particulary to the Unions. It was shut down, all debt taken over by the State (honoured by the former Ministry of Transport and Communications) and its books "cleaned" of financial obligations with third parties.
Finally, when they lowered the base price sufficiently (it was sold for a paltry US $ 22 MM) then they privatised it in August 1996..
Aeropostal is an entirely different thing altogether, then, from an Avensa that owes a lot of money and went under simply to stop paying creditors.

Ramiz bought the right to use the name Aeropostal which, I repeat, was in the clear debt-wise and then chose to call it Alas de Venezuela because Línea Aeropostal Venezolana was the state-run outfit whereas Aeropostal (Alas de Venezuela) was the private version. That is all. You would have to be a real fool to start an airline with the name AVENSA (which is a trade mark anyway) and have to face creditors knocking at your door left, right and centre !! Who in full possession of their commonsense would want to do that ??
I state again what I said earlier in this thread: VIASA has exactly the same problem to this day and that is why the name no-one dares touch !

I cannot foresee any new Avensa for the time being unless they pay their arrears and dues and clear their name !!
 
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viasa
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RE: Avensa - New B727?

Tue Sep 06, 2005 4:03 pm

Avensa is a trademark, but what is about Conavensa?  Smile

To my list, I have some former Avensa/Servivensa jets stored in CCS. Is that correct?

B727-100: YV-765C, YV-838C, YV-845C
B727-200: YV-92C, YV-94C, YV-97C, YV-762C, YV-844C
DC-9-30: YV-613C, YV-614C, YV-760C, YV-764C, YV-817C
DC-9-50: YV-85C, YV-87C, YV-767C, YV-820C

Is there a furter possibility to merger Santa Barbara Airlines and Aeropostal (build a new private airline for flights to Europe, North- and Southamerica and also within Venezuela)?

Venezuela need a "real" airline with modern, efficiently aircrafts.
 
Chiguire
Posts: 1848
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RE: Avensa - New B727?

Tue Sep 06, 2005 4:42 pm

Quoting Viasa (Reply 10):
Avensa is a trademark, but what is about Conavensa?

Please not ! I prefer to stay SinAvensa in such a case.
This has anyway no sense at all, as there are no Avensa-assets you could use.

Quoting Viasa (Reply 10):
B727-100: YV-765C, YV-838C, YV-845C
B727-200: YV-92C, YV-94C, YV-97C, YV-762C, YV-844C
DC-9-30: YV-613C, YV-614C, YV-760C, YV-764C, YV-817C
DC-9-50: YV-85C, YV-87C, YV-767C, YV-820C

Wow ! There are some, but definetly not that many. I would say there are maybe 3 or 4 scraped ones, but not more. There is one in Puerto Ordaz.


Quoting Viasa (Reply 10):
Venezuela need a "real" airline with modern, efficiently aircrafts.

We have Conviasa !  duck 
 
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viasa
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RE: Avensa - New B727?

Tue Sep 06, 2005 4:51 pm

Quoting Chiguire (Reply 11):
Wow ! There are some, but definetly not that many. I would say there are maybe 3 or 4 scraped ones, but not more. There is one in Puerto Ordaz.

Do you know the registration of this bird?

Quoting Chiguire (Reply 11):
Quoting Viasa (Reply 10):
Venezuela need a "real" airline with modern, efficiently aircrafts.

We have Conviasa !

What a joke!
 
Chiguire
Posts: 1848
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2004 5:11 pm

RE: Avensa - New B727?

Tue Sep 06, 2005 5:00 pm

Quoting Viasa (Reply 12):
Do you know the registration of this bird?

Sorry, no. As you see the sunshine came from the front and I couldn't get closer.

Quoting Viasa (Reply 12):
What a joke!

Call me Hugo !
 
civilav
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RE: Avensa - New B727?

Wed Sep 07, 2005 4:44 am

Viasa (Reply 10),

Regarding your question on whether Santa Barbara airlines can merge with Aeropostal I would find it very difficult indeed but miracles are possible.
Santa Barbara is owned by a group of Spanish-Venezuelan citizens (owners of, inter alia, hotels, Isla Airways in the Canary Islands, a very successful car brakes and components factory in Venezuela with exports to the whole Andean Pact and many other interests both in Venezuela and in the Canary Islands) who bought the airline from its previous assortment of owners (cattle ranchers from the Santa Barbara region in Zulia State, western Venezuela) as it had gone bankrupt in early 1998 barely 9 months after starting operations. The deal was concluded through the Banco Canarias which was then equally owned by the González family.
The vision and managerial style of this family is radically different (if not diametrically opposed) to that of Aeropostal's nominal owner, Mr. Ramiz. Growth is based on strength for the González group, so they approach things gradually and very conservatively.... Nelson Ramiz, on the other hand, prefers the boisterous, flamboyant approach and cares not a hoot if his pledges and announcements are pure hot air. I very much doubt the two can ever come to agree on a merger when they stand in opposite corners.
Remember too, Santa Barbara's planes (bar the 757 from Polaris) are totally owned by the airline. Aeropostal's planes do not... the still belong to the financiers (Alas International) who gave Ramiz the capital to bid for the airline in 1996. Do not forget his multiple legal problems with his associates and his inability even to live in Venezuela for a whole year in the late 90s as he had so many lawsuites waiting for him.

I hope that sheds some light on your comment.
I agree with you that Venezuela badly needs a proper airline.. I just cannot see one in the foreseeable future as a commercial, privately and efficiently run one faces a very tough environment indeed.
In many earlier threads over the past year I have poured scorn on Conviasa mainly because it is headed by the very man who accelerated Avensa's demise: Wilmar Castro. So far the airline is a joke (vis a vis its route structure and the many announcements on equipment procurement which have come to naught) and is more deeply engaged in the politics of the moment than in serving the commercial interests of the nation. Only the massive wealth of the oil revenues the country is receiving currently can give it any hope of staying alive.

Greetings from Cancun !

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