TPAnx
Topic Author
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When It's Over At Northwest...

Sun Sep 04, 2005 10:32 am

Curious as to your thoughts on what it'll be like for NW employees if and when
labor peace returns...assuming NW survives. FA's and pilots will apparently be dealing the "replacement" mechanics. FA's will apparently have to work with
colleagues from overseas. Many of the posts dealing with NW have mentioned
past labor disputes...and the bitterness which followed them. Would like to hear from people who've weathered similar situations...how does (or can) the company get everyone to pull together?
TPAnx
I read the news today..oh boy
 
aa757first
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RE: When It's Over At Northwest...

Sun Sep 04, 2005 12:14 pm

The flight attendant issue is a very touchy one.

NW wants Philippine based flight attendants to fly domestic routings. They currently only fly Trans-Pacific flights. But these flight attendants probably make something like $9 an hour. New hires in the U.S. make around $18 an hour, and go up to about $37 an hour.

Here comes the problem. American has three bases in South America. Now that Northwest has cheap flight attendants, AA should use theirs right? DL and UA have bases in South America too I think. So now CO and US need to cut costs. Do they set up a base in Central America? It will turn into who can outsource the fastest.

AAndrew
 
BigGSFO
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RE: When It's Over At Northwest...

Sun Sep 04, 2005 12:38 pm

AA's flight attendants in South America (bases in LIM, BOG and either SCL or GRU?) are contracted to fly only routes to/from MIA. I am sure somebody knows the details of this, but apparently these are contracts left over from the Eastern Airlines days. It's my understanding they are not allowed to work domestic US flights or any other flight not originating or terminating in their home country. Furthermore it is also my understanding that this is a requirement of the governments of Peru, Colombia and either Chile or Brazil (again I am probably wrong here - just going by what I heard) that these satellite F/A bases be set-up. They are not part of the F/A union representing AA/AE US based flight attendants.

If anything, I would imagine AA would rather shut these satellite bases down and use US based F/A's, but that's just my opinion.

I do not see airlines outsourcing to non-US based F/A's to cut costs. Again, somebody correct me, but is there an FAA regulation prohibiting something like this?
 
jetclipper747
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RE: When It's Over At Northwest...

Sun Sep 04, 2005 12:50 pm

Quoting Aa757first (Reply 1):
Here comes the problem. American has three bases in South America. Now that Northwest has cheap flight attendants, AA should use theirs right? DL and UA have bases in South America too I think.

UA does not have any South American domiciles.FYI - LHR, CDG, FRA, HKG, NRT.(That's it out of the USA)
Thanks.
Sometimes a banana is just a banana.
 
TPAnx
Topic Author
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RE: When It's Over At Northwest...

Sun Sep 04, 2005 12:55 pm

Was more concerned about "corporate culture". Can all these groups get along? Would seem to take some really good management to make it happen.
TPAnx
I read the news today..oh boy
 
JoFMO
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RE: When It's Over At Northwest...

Sun Sep 04, 2005 1:16 pm

Is it allowed to fly domestic American routes with outsourced foreign airlines?

I couldn't believe that. Domestic flights should be operated by domestic flight attendents.

International flights are different. But they should a least be based in the destination country and not from a third one.
 
uadc8contrail
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RE: When It's Over At Northwest...

Sun Sep 04, 2005 1:47 pm

when its over at nwa????

PFAA will be gone or reduced to a level that of the union workers at SEIU
IAM will be dougs little bitches
ALPA will have no more power than the contracted airport cleaners at the humphrey terminal

AND doug will be a legend in the airline circles of who was the first to break those greedy unions and give those hefty bonuses to the upper mgmt for a job well done for getting 70% of the flights out on time
bus driver.......move that bus:)
 
aa757first
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RE: When It's Over At Northwest...

Sun Sep 04, 2005 2:08 pm

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 2):
AA's flight attendants in South America (bases in LIM, BOG and either SCL or GRU?) are contracted to fly only routes to/from MIA.

And Northwest's foreign flight attendants are only supposed to fly Trans-Pacific and Inter-Asia routes. Contracts can be changed.

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 2):

I do not see airlines outsourcing to non-US based F/A's to cut costs. Again, somebody correct me, but is there an FAA regulation prohibiting something like this?

I can't think of one. If they pass the FAA-approved NW flight attendant training course, they should be allowed to fly any NW flight.

AAndrew
 
uadc8contrail
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RE: When It's Over At Northwest...

Sun Sep 04, 2005 2:36 pm

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 2):

I do not see airlines outsourcing to non-US based F/A's to cut costs. Again, somebody correct me, but is there an FAA regulation prohibiting something like this?


I can't think of one. If they pass the FAA-approved NW flight attendant training course, they should be allowed to fly any NW flight.

AAndrew

AANDREW,
would you feel safe flying on nwa with MNL based flight attds trained by a bangalore based flight crew training company?????call me crazy but it could happen and i will stick with nwafa and all his coworkers that have the experience and trained by nwa professionals...ask me about a mx flt from cun-mia a while back and why i feel the way i do
bus driver.......move that bus:)
 
kanebear
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RE: When It's Over At Northwest...

Sun Sep 04, 2005 2:49 pm

CO has a base in GUM, I have no idea if they're unionized, etc etc. Having experienced a few GUM based crews on CO, quite a few SoAm based crews on AA and various other foreign crews I can say that domestic service levels would improve if outsourcing came to pass.
 
Squid
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RE: When It's Over At Northwest...

Sun Sep 04, 2005 2:53 pm

Quoting Uadc8contrail (Reply 6):
when its over at nwa????

PFAA will be gone or reduced to a level that of the union workers at SEIU
IAM will be dougs little bitches
ALPA will have no more power than the contracted airport cleaners at the humphrey terminal

AND doug will be a legend in the airline circles of who was the first to break those greedy unions and give those hefty bonuses to the upper mgmt for a job well done for getting 70% of the flights out on time

Could not have said it better myself. Management will have definately EARNED those bonuses after having finaly broken their unions ONCE AND FOR ALL!!!!!!!!!!!
 
N77014
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RE: When It's Over At Northwest...

Sun Sep 04, 2005 2:53 pm

Quoting Kanebear (Reply 9):
CO has a base in GUM, I have no idea if they're unionized, etc etc. Having experienced a few GUM based crews on CO, quite a few SoAm based crews on AA and various other foreign crews I can say that domestic service levels would improve if outsourcing came to pass.

GUM F/A's are on a separate contract, represented by the same union CAL F/A's are. There is no distinction in their training, and they could step in and fly any US flag carrier operation just like any US born and bread F/A.
A new life awaits you in the Off-World Colonies...
 
kevindca
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RE: When It's Over At Northwest...

Sun Sep 04, 2005 4:28 pm

Why in the world are people so concerned about illegal aliens coming to the US to "steal" our jobs and take away our standard of living? Let's let companies like NWA do it legally.

Let's outsource most of our maintenance to foreign firms. Let's allow foreigners to staff every flight into and out of the US, maybe even within the US if we're lucky. That will finally put those fat-cat union supporters in their place! All those Philippine and Chinese cabin crew and maintenance workers will thank us all for their $8 or $9 an hour wages (well above what they could make in their own country, no doubt).

Meanwhile, those greedy union supporters who wanted to make enough to support their families, to make their mortgage payments, to ensure their medical treatment, and otherwise enjoy a basic American standard of living - too bad, the market just isn't there, because it can be shipped overseas for less money.

This should be carried over to other areas of American business. There are many, many foreign workers willing to make a fraction of what even the lowest-paid workers are making, and they are willing to do it with no benefits. It's all about the bottom line of the company now, not the bottom line for the worker.
 
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jetjack74
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RE: When It's Over At Northwest...

Sun Sep 04, 2005 4:32 pm

Quoting Aa757first (Reply 1):
NW wants Philippine based flight attendants to fly domestic routings. They currently only fly Trans-Pacific flights. But these flight attendants probably make something like $9 an hour. New hires in the U.S. make around $18 an hour, and go up to about $37 an hour.

No they don't They only fly on Interport routes(within Asia), they do not fly Transpac flights. The company wants to outsource 50% of international flying to MNL, PVG/PEK, and BKK based FA's because they are sweatshop-wage FA's. The plan would be to position these FA's on NRT-US segments(SEA, HNL, SFO, MSP, DTW, and LAX, and ahve them fly the long-haul domestic service. And then the company would pretty much in the end, be free to replace on any international flight. A dirty trick is what it is.
Made from jets!
 
soylentgreen
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RE: When It's Over At Northwest...

Sun Sep 04, 2005 6:23 pm

File for bankruptcy. Result-all contracts are null and void, but landing rights and flight plans remain, as does fleet. Start over with low cost carrier structure, but with legacy carrier routes, fleet, and experience. And make sure not one of those mechnaics gets rehired...ever.
 
TomFoolery
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RE: When It's Over At Northwest...

Sun Sep 04, 2005 7:35 pm

If NWA outsources, arnt there some major VISA issues to deal with? Sure, a company can sponsor overseas workers, but there are limitations, and I believe that one is that the number of able and competent tradesmen, workers, etc is too low domestically and it is necessary to seek professionals from other countries. It is a bit more lax when it comes to internships, long term training, education, and the like. But I'm sure the unions are in contact with the INS to enforce any breeches of those rules.
Paper makes an airplane fly
 
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OzarkD9S
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RE: When It's Over At Northwest...

Sun Sep 04, 2005 7:50 pm

How come no one ever "outsources" management?

Just wondering....
Next up: STL-OAK-RNO-LAS-ICT-STL
 
bobnwa
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RE: When It's Over At Northwest...

Sun Sep 04, 2005 8:58 pm

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 16):
How come no one ever "outsources" management?

If what you are saying is that US airlines do not have foreign nationals in management positions, YOU ARE WRONG.
 
IL76TD
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RE: When It's Over At Northwest...

Mon Sep 05, 2005 12:49 am

I still think it is funny that a few months ago people were saying that NW was the most solid US airline because they 'owned all their planes'...

...ha...
 
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OzarkD9S
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RE: When It's Over At Northwest...

Mon Sep 05, 2005 1:32 am

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 17):


If what you are saying is that US airlines do not have foreign nationals in management positions, YOU ARE WRONG.

I didn't say that. What I was sarcastically referring to is the many US corporations outsource thier workforce overseas, but for example NW doesn't outsource thier management functions to KLM for example, thus cutting management positions in the US. The golden parachutes are kept inhouse.
Next up: STL-OAK-RNO-LAS-ICT-STL
 
wdleiser
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RE: When It's Over At Northwest...

Mon Sep 05, 2005 1:47 am

Quoting Uadc8contrail (Reply 6):
AND doug will be a legend in the airline circles of who was the first to break those greedy unions and give those hefty bonuses to the upper mgmt for a job well done for getting 70% of the flights out on tim

Why thank you, I am already legend. (FYI... My name is Doug)

This NWA situation needs to get figured out quickly. Nothing good is being done for the airline or for the mechanics right now except negative press. Using overseas F/A's could indeed work very well. If they [Philippine F/A's] are getting paid enough to live like the American F/A's in the Philippines then why not have them fly on Domestic routes. As long as they get home in time and can still properly afford their life style back overseas.
 
TheSonntag
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RE: When It's Over At Northwest...

Mon Sep 05, 2005 2:58 am

I don't know about US legislation, but in the EU, you can only employ people that have a valid working permit. In Germany and all other EU countries, a working permit is only given to certain groups of foreigners: a) EU nationals (a person from France, Greece or every other EU or EEA country like for example Switzerland has the exact same rights to work as has a German in Germany), and b) other foreigners who got a working permit because they have a residence permit, maybe because they are married with a EU national, because they have been granted asylum or because the employer couldn't find an employee from a EU country to do the job (for example it is hard to find Japanese speaking cabin attendands for flights to Japan).

That means that you cannot employ African or US citizens on a EU flight, lets say from Germany to England on a German based carrier, unless you got a work permit for these people, which would be impossible as EU flight attendands are just as good to do the job. Of course, Lufthansa has cabin attendands that are not EU citizens, but that is another story.

I would be very surprised if this was different in the US. Of course, outsourcing of engineers is something that is different. As the aviation business is global, it is not that difficult to fly to an airport where maintenance is cheaper, but IMHO this is only possible to a limited extend.

Michael
 
bobnwa
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RE: When It's Over At Northwest...

Mon Sep 05, 2005 4:02 am

Northwest employs less than 10 managers in Europe and except for one they are all foreign nationals. All other management responsibilities are filled by KLM. The reverse is true of KLM in the US.

In Asia, Northwest has many managers but with the exception of a handful, they are all foreign nationals.
 
YULWinterSkies
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RE: When It's Over At Northwest...

Mon Sep 05, 2005 4:12 am

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 21):
That means that you cannot employ African or US citizens on a EU flight, lets say from Germany to England on a German based carrier, unless you got a work permit for these people, which would be impossible as EU flight attendands are just as good to do the job.

And also, these non-EU people would have to be employed under a German contract, which means same pay and work conditions as the EU workers, hence, no money saved for the company!

Quoting Uadc8contrail (Reply 8):
would you feel safe flying on nwa with MNL based flight attds trained by a bangalore based flight crew training company?????call me crazy but it could happen

I unfortunately think you are right. Not immediately, but this may likely happen in the long term if this phenomenon develops too much... You developed a worrying idea for the future of airplane transportation... And I would not be surprised if CEOs try to put presssure on the governments to make them modify laws to allow this... Just like what sometimes happens in sea cargo ships, where a Liberia-registered ship chartered by a wealthy multinational company and operated by a Philippine crew sinks because the crew did not understand the orders of the drunk captain (from any non-Philippine speaking country you want) who did not even noticed his ship was too rotten to float... This situation is a caricature of course, but not so far from what happened with the oil tanker Erika who ruined the Brittany coast a few years ago for example.
When I doubt... go running!
 
B707Stu
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RE: When It's Over At Northwest...

Mon Sep 05, 2005 4:35 am

More grist for the mill. Pan Am employees of foreign countries, eg UK, France, etc were guaranteed their pensions when Pan Am went under. American employees lost their pensions. From a pension perspective it isn't always wise to outsource!
 
Gilligan
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RE: When It's Over At Northwest...

Mon Sep 05, 2005 6:29 am

I flew on NH, CA, and CZ within the last month and found their inflight crews to be completely professional. Good or better service than I have gotten on domestic carriers and the take off, cruise, and landing segments were way above average as well. Bringem on!
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
TheSonntag
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RE: When It's Over At Northwest...

Mon Sep 05, 2005 6:40 am

Quoting B707Stu (Reply 24):
More grist for the mill. Pan Am employees of foreign countries, eg UK, France, etc were guaranteed their pensions when Pan Am went under. American employees lost their pensions. From a pension perspective it isn't always wise to outsourc

In Germany we always criticise our labour costs, but I really think that our social security system is something that is worth it. I just read that General Motors has big problems in the US due to their social security programs for their workes. While you have to pay extra costs for your workers in Germany per hour, thats it, it includes health insurance and pension, so you don't have to worry about that anymore. Such a system might be a much better idea, also economy wise, than many may think.

But as I know way too little about the US system, I cannot comment on it. But a federal social security system might be a very good idea.

Michael
 
Squid
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RE: When It's Over At Northwest...

Mon Sep 05, 2005 9:02 am

Quoting KevinDCA (Reply 12):
Why in the world are people so concerned about illegal aliens coming to the US to "steal" our jobs and take away our standard of living? Let's let companies like NWA do it legally.

Let's outsource most of our maintenance to foreign firms. Let's allow foreigners to staff every flight into and out of the US, maybe even within the US if we're lucky. That will finally put those fat-cat union supporters in their place! All those Philippine and Chinese cabin crew and maintenance workers will thank us all for their $8 or $9 an hour wages (well above what they could make in their own country, no doubt).

Meanwhile, those greedy union supporters who wanted to make enough to support their families, to make their mortgage payments, to ensure their medical treatment, and otherwise enjoy a basic American standard of living - too bad, the market just isn't there, because it can be shipped overseas for less money.

This should be carried over to other areas of American business. There are many, many foreign workers willing to make a fraction of what even the lowest-paid workers are making, and they are willing to do it with no benefits. It's all about the bottom line of the company now, not the bottom line for the worker.

Yes you finally get it. If it is good for the business, then in the long run it is good for America. These practices allow the company to lower their costs and in turn lower the price of the ticket. Lowering the price of the ticket will further stimulate traffic, allowing Americans to travel for even less.
 
TheSonntag
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RE: When It's Over At Northwest...

Mon Sep 05, 2005 9:08 am

Quoting Squid (Reply 27):

Yes you finally get it. If it is good for the business, then in the long run it is good for America. These practices allow the company to lower their costs and in turn lower the price of the ticket. Lowering the price of the ticket will further stimulate traffic, allowing Americans to travel for even less.

I am just asking, do you mean that serious or is it ironic? Allowing Amerincans to travel for less sounds fine, but if you do that everywhere, which Americans will still be able to travel at all? It is the same in Germany: Companies are moving production to China but are complaining about that nobody is buying anything anymore in Germany. Is it so hard to figure out why?

We need fair payment for fair work, everywhere. Unions are necessary, just like they need a strong opponent, so that they reach an agreement which reaches a fair balance between the interests of the employer and the employees. Union bashing as seen on airliners.net is, although sometimes understandable, not the solution. Without unions employees would be slaves, and I do not desire such a world.

Michael
 
777Purser
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RE: When It's Over At Northwest...

Mon Sep 05, 2005 9:37 am

Quoting Aa757first (Reply 1):
Here comes the problem. American has three bases in South America. Now that Northwest has cheap flight attendants, AA should use theirs right?

I don't quite understand what you mean by this. It's not clear. I will correct you though, American has four foreign national bases: Santiago, Buenos Aires, Lima and Bogota. There is a ratio stipulated in the contract that specifies how many foreign based FA, versus US based FA's management can use.
 
777Purser
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RE: When It's Over At Northwest...

Mon Sep 05, 2005 9:42 am

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 2):
I do not see airlines outsourcing to non-US based F/A's to cut costs. Again, somebody correct me, but is there an FAA regulation prohibiting something like this?

I find the answer much more simple. No Green Card, no job within the US. They can work internationally, but not domestically. An airline would have to prove to the US government that no American Citizen has the skills to oerform the job in order to get a foreiner to work in the US and that is virtually impossible for this particular position.
 
Dougloid
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RE: When It's Over At Northwest...

Mon Sep 05, 2005 1:20 pm

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 28):
I am just asking, do you mean that serious or is it ironic? Allowing Amerincans to travel for less sounds fine, but if you do that everywhere, which Americans will still be able to travel at all? It is the same in Germany: Companies are moving production to China but are complaining about that nobody is buying anything anymore in Germany. Is it so hard to figure out why?

We need fair payment for fair work, everywhere. Unions are necessary, just like they need a strong opponent, so that they reach an agreement which reaches a fair balance between the interests of the employer and the employees. Union bashing as seen on airliners.net is, although sometimes understandable, not the solution. Without unions employees would be slaves, and I do not desire such a world.

Thanks Michael.I remember about fifteen years ago someone saying that in fifteen years we'd not make or fix anything in America, nd all we'd do is be fry cooks at McDonalds and sell insurance to each other. I didn't think it would arrive this quickly though.

I retrained myself to become essentailly a parasite-human nature being what it is someone will always have to pay me....I'd rather be working at Douglas as I did for 4 happy years.

Henry Ford realized that unless his workers were paid a reasonable rate they would never be able to buy the things they were making...he raised their pay to $5 per day which was about double what comparable work was paying...the result was that a lot of workers could and did buy Ford's cars. Ultimately it was good for Ford and good for the US and the workers....but Ford had also been a working stiff in his time too....never was a clean hands engineer.

What we're seeing in our industries is deconstruction....the people who are beating the drum the loudest have a flawed understanding of economics in my view. Because countries like China and others do not have any sort of effective environmental standards or worker protection, the cost of those things is being shucked off from the west onto the workers of China....it's called externalities but most free marketeers skipped over that part of the textbook. Someone bears the cost of the externalities-and that's not economic efficiency.

Michael
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
daron4000
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RE: When It's Over At Northwest...

Mon Sep 05, 2005 1:34 pm

For the record, I personally love Phillipinos as a culture and are so friendly so minus the wages for which they should be paid higher, I would love to see them on domestic routes and then maybe the air would be a little less grouchy and a little more friendly.
 
LMP737
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RE: When It's Over At Northwest...

Tue Sep 06, 2005 12:50 am

Quoting Squid (Reply 10):
Could not have said it better myself. Management will have definately EARNED those bonuses after having finaly broken their unions ONCE AND FOR ALL!!!!!!!!!!!

Squid:

Where exactly have you learned this negative re-enforcment style of management you seem to believe in? Please tell me it's no the Navy. If you are learning it in one of your classes whatever school you are going to is doing you a tremendous disservice.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
Squid
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RE: When It's Over At Northwest...

Tue Sep 06, 2005 12:41 pm

My father owns his own business, and the union he deals with is slowly killing the business. He earns less than his senior employees, and he is the owner.

I also agree with Daron4000, the asian flight attendants would be a welcomed change on US airlines.

[Edited 2005-09-06 05:43:11]

[Edited 2005-09-06 05:43:42]
 
LMP737
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RE: When It's Over At Northwest...

Wed Sep 07, 2005 12:45 am

Quoting Squid (Reply 34):
My father owns his own business, and the union he deals with is slowly killing the business. He earns less than his senior employees, and he is the owner.

I also agree with Daron4000, the asian flight attendants would be a welcomed change on US airlines.

Now it makes a bit more sense. Your angry and bitter about the state of your fathers company so you lash out at people who have absolutely nothing to do with it. You are so angry in fact that you seem to take pleasure in the thought of people losing their jobs.

If I'm wrong here please correct me. You learned the scorched earth style of management from your dad. Now if this is the case please forgive me when I say it's no wonder he has to deal with a union. There's a saying, companies that have a union on property usually did something to deserve it. And if the senior employee is making more money than he is it sounds like a problem of his own making.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
Squid
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RE: When It's Over At Northwest...

Wed Sep 07, 2005 2:03 am

Well I for one don't view it as a scorched earth style of management, I feel that if that is how I want to run my company, than you can take it or leave it. If I cannot hire the type of people that I want working there for the money I am offering, then I will have to raise the offer to find the people and keep the people I want. It's all supply and demand. Also from my military experience, you basically must rule the place with an iron fist because with most people, if you give them an inch they will take a mile.

My dad is in the position he is in, because he generally gives his workers the benifit of the doubt and is really too nice. He likes being liked, and that is more important to him, I think, than the income he could possibly make.
 
TheSonntag
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RE: When It's Over At Northwest...

Wed Sep 07, 2005 7:19 am

While I never was manager for anything and I agree that somebody has to say things, it is not advisable to treat your employees like if you were in the military. Happy employees are more productive and create a better working environment.

Airlines are a good example. The times I flew with Ryanair, I really sensed that the employees seemed to hate their job, therefore I felt unwanted on that flight, which really makes me thinking whether I should fly with Ryanair next time. On flights with HLX or Germanwings, however, I always felt welcome on board and the cabin crew seemed happy. While this does not necessarily mean that the working environment is better (I cannot comment on that), I am pretty sure that the treatment of the employees at Ryanair has something to do with their attitude towars passengers.

So I can only urge people: Treat your employees well, and you will have less problems with unions and a better producitivity. However, I agree that this does not solve the problem that you have to pay them with 15� per hour while a chinese would get 1� per hour. This is a global problem which needs global solutions.

Michael
 
paddy78
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RE: When It's Over At Northwest...

Wed Sep 07, 2005 8:10 am

Quoting Squid (Reply 36):
Also from my military experience, you basically must rule the place with an iron fist because with most people, if you give them an inch they will take a mile.

Yeah, there is no way you and I would play nice...espcially if I was in a union and you were my boss. I had an old managment professor who used to say "if you have to deal with a union, you more than likely did something to deserve one."
Only amatures need the handles sticking out.
 
LMP737
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RE: When It's Over At Northwest...

Wed Sep 07, 2005 8:24 am

Quoting Squid (Reply 36):
Well I for one don't view it as a scorched earth style of management, I feel that if that is how I want to run my company, than you can take it or leave it. If I cannot hire the type of people that I want working there for the money I am offering, then I will have to raise the offer to find the people and keep the people I want. It's all supply and demand. Also from my military experience, you basically must rule the place with an iron fist because with most people, if you give them an inch they will take a mile.

If what you have learned about leadership and management is rule with an iron fist that tells me you are currently in a piss poor command. Basically a failure in leadership. Trust me me when I say that ruling with an iron fist does not work in the long run. I've been doing this a bit longer than you have. The best leaders I have seen in both the Navy and civilian world do not rule with an iron fist. Those who have ruled with an "iron fist" eventually make a mess of things. And if you doubt what I'm saying do you think Southwest became successful as they are by running their operation the way you seem to think is best? The answer is no.

Like said before the best leaders don't no rule with an iron fist. The good ones treat you with dignity and respect and do not use negative reinforcement like you seem to believe works. However they don't try and be Mr Nice Guy and be everyone's buddy. When you do that you lose effectiveness because usually what you become is a push over. No one respects a push over.

I know I'm probably not going to convince you that scorched earth management does not work. Here's a suggestion, if you ever own you own company or acquire a position high up in a company try it. When your company does not meet certain performance goals take money form the pay checks of your employees like you sugested in another one of your posts. Then see what happens

Suggested reading Squid. From Worst to First by Gordon Bethune and It's Your Ship by captain D. Michael Abrasoff.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
acidradio
Crew
Posts: 1595
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2001 3:19 pm

RE: When It's Over At Northwest...

Wed Sep 07, 2005 8:34 am

Our industry is a victim of its own success. Think about it - we live in a day and age where it is logistically possible and feasible to employ flight crews from halfway around the world in the US domestic market, all for half of what their US-based counterpart would make. It's not too hard to get people across the pond nowadays to do so - it's like a superhighway across either ocean. And that half-rate wage goes further in say, the Phillipines, than it does in the US, so foreign employees will gladly take a 14-hr ride each way to work for that kind of money.

I see more ideas on the horizon. Load planning and dispatching could get moved to say, Bangalore, one day. In theory, you don't really even need to talk with your load planners, most of their work they can do themselves and through e-mails. I know nobody wants to see that, but, hey it's possible, and we all know how airlines like to do anything as soon as they discover it's possible (did anyone foresee 757's flying trans-Atlantic or RJ flights in excess of 4 hrs?). Could an airport ramp be considered a "customs free trade" zone someday and ramp workers brought in from say, China or the Phillipines who work for half-pay take over jobs there?

Globalism - it's not just for manufacturing anymore...
Ich haben zwei Platzspielen und ein Microphone
 
9844
Posts: 194
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2001 12:36 am

RE: When It's Over At Northwest...

Wed Sep 07, 2005 1:03 pm

JAL uses Thai flt attnd and HNL based Aussie pilots.


Bottom line is uncle OIL and 100 dollars a barrel.It wont matter what you make today.It won't last.
 
Lono
Posts: 1136
Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2004 5:47 pm

RE: When It's Over At Northwest...

Wed Sep 07, 2005 1:18 pm

Quoting TPAnx (Thread starter):
assuming NW survives.

No assumptions here

Quoting TPAnx (Thread starter):
past labor disputes

NW history is full of this type of thing...

Quoting TPAnx (Thread starter):
past labor disputes...and The bitterness which followed them. Would like to hear from people who've weathered similar situations...how does (or can) the company get everyone to pull together?

Again NW has a history of labor strife... They are not going anywhere!!! NW will be around for a good long time.... They are a force to be reckoned with.... just watch... They will make it uncomfortable for the LCC's... already have been able to fight them off...
Wally Bird Ruled the Skys!

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