MAH4546
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UA Cuts IAD-SJO, SFO-CDG; Suspends ORD-AMS

Mon Sep 05, 2005 12:32 pm

United Airlines is ending service between Washington Dulles and San Jose, Costa Rica, launched not very long ago. Tomorrow (5 September) is the last flight. Launched as a daily 757-200 flight, they stupidly re-timed to leave Dulles in the morning and not connect to the European flights, which had a huge affect on the flight's feed.

Non-stop service between San Francsico and Paris ends on 28 October 2005. This has been one of United's worst performing trans-Atlantic routes, so it is no surprise they are ending the service.

Also, service between O'Hare and Amsterdam is being suspended for the winter on 28 October. It resumes 2 April 2005.
a.
 
yegbey01
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RE: UA Cuts IAD-SJO, SFO-CDG; Suspends ORD-AMS

Mon Sep 05, 2005 12:33 pm

I think you meant to say April 06
 
LAXintl
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RE: UA Cuts IAD-SJO, SFO-CDG; Suspends ORD-AMS

Mon Sep 05, 2005 12:38 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Thread starter):
Non-stop service between San Francsico and Paris ends on 28 October 2005. This has been one of United's worst performing trans-Atlantic routes, so it is no surprise they are ending the service

One of the best performing loadwise, but yields were weak.

Quoting MAH4546 (Thread starter):
United Airlines is ending service between Washington Dulles and San Jose, Costa Rica, launched not very long ago. Tomorrow (5 September) is the last flight. Launched as a daily 757-200 flight, they stupidly re-timed to leave Dulles in the morning and not connect to the European flights, which had a huge affect on the flight's feed.

Loads were marginal before the retiming and equipment change to A320. The retiming to a morning departure was meant to be more attractive to US flyers whom would not loose an entire day by arriving San Jose at 10pm at night. Flight did not have many European connections anyways.
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padcrasher
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RE: UA Cuts IAD-SJO, SFO-CDG; Suspends ORD-AMS

Mon Sep 05, 2005 12:44 pm

Mark

Do you know off the top of your head What are the East Coast gateways and number of flights to SJO.

I would suppose it's CO/US/DL and AA. Does US fly from more than one point?
 
MAH4546
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RE: UA Cuts IAD-SJO, SFO-CDG; Suspends ORD-AMS

Mon Sep 05, 2005 12:50 pm

Quoting Padcrasher (Reply 3):

Do you know off the top of your head What are the East Coast gateways and number of flights to SJO.

I would suppose it's CO/US/DL and AA. Does US fly from more than one point?

During peak travel season:

AA - 5x daily MIA-SJO
DL - 2x daily ATL-SJO
US - 1x daily CLT-SJO; 1x daily FLL-SJO; Saturday PHL-SJO
CO - 2x daily EWR-SJO
LR - 2x daily MIA-SJO; 6w JFK-SJO
MP - 1x daily MIA-SJO; 2w MCO-SJO
a.
 
jacobin777
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RE: UA Cuts IAD-SJO, SFO-CDG; Suspends ORD-AMS

Mon Sep 05, 2005 1:56 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Thread starter):
Non-stop service between San Francsico and Paris ends on 28 October 2005. This has been one of United's worst performing trans-Atlantic routes, so it is no surprise they are ending the service.



Quoting Laxintl (Reply 2):
One of the best performing loadwise, but yields were weak.

interesting...considering they aren't even flying a large plane (763), and besides the one AF flight (AF083), there aren't any nonstop flights to CDG.........looks like AF have this all to themselves for now...!!


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MAH4546
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RE: UA Cuts IAD-SJO, SFO-CDG; Suspends ORD-AMS

Mon Sep 05, 2005 1:57 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 5):
interesting...considering they aren't even flying a large plane (763),

Loads are based on a percentage, not a total number of seats.
a.
 
LAXintl
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RE: UA Cuts IAD-SJO, SFO-CDG; Suspends ORD-AMS

Mon Sep 05, 2005 2:07 pm

The SFO-CDG flight is one which UA has been tinkering with for the last decade. The flight for a few years in the 90s moved down and became a LAX-CDG service before moving back to SFO. It also operated with 777s for several years from SFO.

Loads were always good, for example in 2000 year around average load factor was 79% and in 2004 was 83%, the highest of UA's Paris services.

Unfortunately the strong loads did not equate to high yields particularly in premium classes. United/Star Alliance with a weak position in France was primarily forced to rely on O&D traffic between the West Coast and Paris, unlike its other Europe services to London and Frankfurt from California which have the benefit of feed on both ends.
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Bicoastal
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RE: UA Cuts IAD-SJO, SFO-CDG; Suspends ORD-AMS

Mon Sep 05, 2005 2:11 pm

Nice that Dulles IAD) is United's main hub for Europe. It's got Brussels, Zurich and Amsterdam. Until recently it was United's sole hub flight to Munich. I'd love to see Milan, Madrid and Lisbon in the future. To South America, it has United's sole flight to Buenos Aires (EZE)
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jacobin777
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RE: UA Cuts IAD-SJO, SFO-CDG; Suspends ORD-AMS

Mon Sep 05, 2005 2:27 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 6):

Loads are based on a percentage, not a total number of seats.

true, but with so few seats available on that sector, I would assume yields wouldn't have been all that bad......

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 7):
United/Star Alliance with a weak position in France

there are more than enough Star Alliance partners flying through CDG..it shouldn't have been a problem for UA to codeshare with various partners..
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MAH4546
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RE: UA Cuts IAD-SJO, SFO-CDG; Suspends ORD-AMS

Mon Sep 05, 2005 2:31 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 9):

true, but with so few seats available on that sector, I would assume yields wouldn't have been all that bad......

Paris-California in general is a weak yielding market. In the past five years, we have seen Amerian Airlines (LAX-CDG and SJC-CDG), Corsair (OAK-ORY), United Airlines (LAX-CDG and SFO-CDG), and AOM (LAX-ORY) exit the market.
a.
 
LAXintl
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RE: UA Cuts IAD-SJO, SFO-CDG; Suspends ORD-AMS

Mon Sep 05, 2005 2:48 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 9):
there are more than enough Star Alliance partners flying through CDG..it shouldn't have been a problem for UA to codeshare with various partners..

To where? Star lacks a French partner. Thus not much can be reached via Paris. Instead LHR and FRA/MUC offer many better onward opportunities.

Also the terminal situation in Paris has been frustrating Star for several years. For a long time they have been working on getting all the members under one roof in T-1.
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WindowSeat
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RE: UA Cuts IAD-SJO, SFO-CDG; Suspends ORD-AMS

Mon Sep 05, 2005 3:42 pm

Even Air France with the only competition from UA, step down from a 744 in summer to a 343 in autumn and then a 332 in winter. Loads must really suck, not sure about yields.

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SHUPirate1
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RE: UA Cuts IAD-SJO, SFO-CDG; Suspends ORD-AMS

Mon Sep 05, 2005 3:49 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 10):
In the past five years, we have seen Amerian Airlines (LAX-CDG and SJC-CDG), Corsair (OAK-ORY), United Airlines (LAX-CDG and SFO-CDG), and AOM (LAX-ORY) exit the market.

If I recall correctly, didn't American have to be dragged kicking and screaming into leaving Orly for DeGaulle? How did Corsair and AOM still operate trans-atlantic flights from Orly then?
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PA110
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RE: UA Cuts IAD-SJO, SFO-CDG; Suspends ORD-AMS

Mon Sep 05, 2005 3:52 pm

Quoting WindowSeat (Reply 12):
Loads must really suck, not sure about yields.

That's just the problem.. The loads are just fine - it's the yield that sucks. I've been on UA's 777 SFO-CDG flight quite a few times in the off season, and it was always packed to capacity.

AF is following their formula for financial success in downgrading the aircraft. Reducing the available seats forces the yield up. Sucks if you're looking for a deal, but it does improve route profitability.
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MAH4546
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RE: UA Cuts IAD-SJO, SFO-CDG; Suspends ORD-AMS

Mon Sep 05, 2005 4:04 pm

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 13):

If I recall correctly, didn't American have to be dragged kicking and screaming into leaving Orly for DeGaulle? How did Corsair and AOM still operate trans-atlantic flights from Orly then?

Yes, that is true. AA didn't want to leave Orly. French airlines still operate a good amount of leisure-oriented long haul routes from Orly. Air France has a long haul fleet of 747s based in Orly that operate routes to former and current French territories, including Cayenne and Reunion.
a.
 
jacobin777
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RE: UA Cuts IAD-SJO, SFO-CDG; Suspends ORD-AMS

Mon Sep 05, 2005 5:21 pm

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 11):
To where? Star lacks a French partner. Thus not much can be reached via Paris. Instead LHR and FRA/MUC offer many better onward opportunities.

good call.my bad..i was thinking of FRA for some reason  crazy 

CDG doesn't have good Star Alliance connections...I would see only CDG-LHR or CDG-FRA as an alternative.....
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AOMlover
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RE: UA Cuts IAD-SJO, SFO-CDG; Suspends ORD-AMS

Mon Sep 05, 2005 5:30 pm

SHUPirate1, AOM and Corsair's American destinations were stopovers for flights to Tahiti. Indeed, AOM operated ORY-LAX-PPT using DC10s then A340s, while Corsair flew ORY-OAK-PPT using 742s, 743s, 747SPs.
 
ScottB
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RE: UA Cuts IAD-SJO, SFO-CDG; Suspends ORD-AMS

Mon Sep 05, 2005 5:53 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 4):
CO - 2x daily EWR-SJO

Actually, 2 daily IAH-SJO and 1 daily EWR-SJO, I believe.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 4):
US - 1x daily CLT-SJO; 1x daily FLL-SJO; Saturday PHL-SJO

If memory serves, FLL-SJO has been cut or soon will be.
 
jacobin777
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RE: UA Cuts IAD-SJO, SFO-CDG; Suspends ORD-AMS

Mon Sep 05, 2005 6:00 pm

Also, the 5 month suspension of ORD-AMS only leaves KL with the monopoly for the route.......not that its a huge route, but I do see KL's 747 combi there quite often...I wonder if they will change that to some other plane also....

cough, cough...I see this route perfect for a brand spanking new KL 787  bigthumbsup 
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keesje
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RE: UA Cuts IAD-SJO, SFO-CDG; Suspends ORD-AMS

Mon Sep 05, 2005 6:07 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Thread starter):
Also, service between O'Hare and Amsterdam is being suspended for the winter on 28 October. It resumes 2 April 2005.

IMO if NWA/KLM increases frequencies (BBJ?) and NWA puts on an aggresive Worldperks action, it could become difficult for UA to return next year.
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ARGinLON
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RE: UA Cuts IAD-SJO, SFO-CDG; Suspends ORD-AMS

Mon Sep 05, 2005 6:24 pm

I believe U.S. carries are always very far from AF in terms of yields due to local traffic preference for the flag carrier.

In addition to this, the competition for this route was too hard for UA and getting high yield passengers was tough due to several factors: Inferior product/aircraft, lack of Star Alliance partner at CDG, etc.

And yes, T1 at CDG is a nightmare.
 
United Airline
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RE: UA Cuts IAD-SJO, SFO-CDG; Suspends ORD-AMS

Mon Sep 05, 2005 10:11 pm

Will UA fly to CDG still after this cut? If yes from where?
 
commavia
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RE: UA Cuts IAD-SJO, SFO-CDG; Suspends ORD-AMS

Mon Sep 05, 2005 10:13 pm

Quoting United Airline (Reply 22):
Will UA fly to CDG still after this cut? If yes from where?

Yes. They'll still have their daily 777 to IAD and daily 767 to ORD.
 
SQ2
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RE: UA Cuts IAD-SJO, SFO-CDG; Suspends ORD-AMS

Mon Sep 05, 2005 10:23 pm

is there PTV on UA's 763's economy class? the one that's doing the SFO-CDG route. the load for the summer is between 80-90%
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Bicoastal
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RE: UA Cuts IAD-SJO, SFO-CDG; Suspends ORD-AMS

Mon Sep 05, 2005 10:26 pm

In addition to flying directly to CDG from Dulles and Chicago, United flyers can fly to many cities in France via its Star Alliance partners Luftansa, SAS, BMI, Swiss and even, though a bit out of the way, TAP, LOT and Austrian. Amsterdam can be reached via all of those airlines, too. Thank goodness for code sharing.
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halls120
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RE: UA Cuts IAD-SJO, SFO-CDG; Suspends ORD-AMS

Mon Sep 05, 2005 10:28 pm

Quoting SQ2 (Reply 24):
is there PTV on UA's 763's economy class? the one that's doing the SFO-CDG route. the load for the summer is between 80-90%

Don't know about that route, but I fly 763's IAD-LHR all the time, and we've had PTV's on every flight.
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StevenUhl777
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RE: UA Cuts IAD-SJO, SFO-CDG; Suspends ORD-AMS

Tue Sep 06, 2005 12:40 am

Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 8):
I'd love to see Milan, Madrid and Lisbon in the future

Highly unlikely due to the new alliance with TAP Air Portugal.

I'm glad to see United making decisions like suspending/cutting routes that are marginally profitable at best. It tells me they are serious about becoming profitable and putting that need above trying to serve routes for prestige reasons only.
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as739x
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RE: UA Cuts IAD-SJO, SFO-CDG; Suspends ORD-AMS

Tue Sep 06, 2005 4:53 am

Windowseat, actually AF goes from summer 747-400 to 777's in the transition schedules and A340 during the winter. We only saw the A330 2 times last year as an A/C sub. Note though that they are going right from the 744 to 343 this fall. Changes Oct 30th

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JoFMO
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RE: UA Cuts IAD-SJO, SFO-CDG; Suspends ORD-AMS

Tue Sep 06, 2005 5:29 am

Why should UA stop a route that is marginally profitable? As long as the route makes some money.

Opening a new route is always risky. There is no guarantee that you get more money from day on the new route than you had on the old marginally profitable route.

I hope that UA has an idea where to use the plane in a better way.
 
daron4000
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RE: UA Cuts IAD-SJO, SFO-CDG; Suspends ORD-AMS

Tue Sep 06, 2005 5:38 am

First of all, all seats on 3-class 767 and 777's have PTV's. I think that at least the two European routes which were both 767 routes were changed becasue of lease issues. Other 767's were repossesed causing them to stop flying certain routes that were more profitable. Therefore, now that summer is over, it might be better to postition these 767's to more profitable winter routes, like south america, where if you remember, they had so much demand that 747's were used in december. What I would like to know is why they don't convert some of those 2-class 767's into 3-class international planes, i know the 777's are in 2-class because of some sort of weight restrictinos although then it puzzles me why they fly it on the ORD-HNL/OGG routes.
 
ARGinLON
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RE: UA Cuts IAD-SJO, SFO-CDG; Suspends ORD-AMS

Tue Sep 06, 2005 6:48 am

Quoting Daron4000 (Reply 30):
Therefore, now that summer is over, it might be better to postition these 767's to more profitable winter routes, like south america, where if you remember, they had so much demand that 747's were used in december

I am aware of the huge traffic around xmas time but... Did UA actually use a 744 to some destinations? Where/When?
 
LAXintl
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RE: UA Cuts IAD-SJO, SFO-CDG; Suspends ORD-AMS

Tue Sep 06, 2005 7:03 am

Quoting ARGinLON (Reply 31):
I am aware of the huge traffic around xmas time but... Did UA actually use a 744 to some destinations? Where/When?

UA did run the B744 to Buenos Aires around New Years. If I remember correctly it was from ORD.

With having the a large B744 fleet, United has been able to upgauge equipment to strategically meet certain peak demands.
For instance Hawaii often can get a B744 during holiday periods, LAX-SFO even can see a B744 particularly during winter rain storms to clear a large backlog of passengers off ATC delayed flights, and LA-Central America has seen DC-10, B767s in the past replacing A320/B757s to meet the peak holiday passenger demand.
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ORD2PHL
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RE: UA Cuts IAD-SJO, SFO-CDG; Suspends ORD-AMS

Tue Sep 06, 2005 8:19 am

Good to see UA being productive about unprofitable routes. I wonder where this equipment, (the 763 from the SFO-CDG) will go.

ORD2PHL
 
MAH4546
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RE: UA Cuts IAD-SJO, SFO-CDG; Suspends ORD-AMS

Tue Sep 06, 2005 8:26 am

Quoting ORD2PHL (Reply 33):
I wonder where this equipment, (the 763 from the SFO-CDG) will go.

ORD-EZE.
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RyanAFAMSP
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RE: UA Cuts IAD-SJO, SFO-CDG; Suspends ORD-AMS

Tue Sep 06, 2005 10:32 am

Daron4000-

As far as two class 777s and 767-300s go:

The two class configuration on the 777s has nothing to do with weight restrictions. Ships N210UA-N215UA were delivered in 2000 to replace DC-10s on inter-hub and Hawaiian service. United has a need for a high density configuration - and the choice to configure the airplanes at 36/312 instead of 12/49/197 was related to market needs.

The same was basically true for the 767-300 two class. The airplanes came on between 1997 and 2001 to replace DC-10-10s on similar routes to the 777 two class. I don't believe these airplanes could be converted to the 3-class international configuration, though, because they are powered with de-rated PW4052s and don't have the range capabilities of the PW4060 powered -322ERs.

Pity about the end of SFO-CDG. I remember when that was selling like gangbusters during the dot com boom. But these days, there is just no way that the UA 767 can compete with any of the equipment AF has on the route. AF has robust traffic on the route, and the 744's unit costs and freight uplift capabilities beat the shit out of the 767-300ER. Sad to see it go, though.
 
LFutia
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RE: UA Cuts IAD-SJO, SFO-CDG; Suspends ORD-AMS

Tue Sep 06, 2005 11:21 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 19):
Also, the 5 month suspension of ORD-AMS only leaves KL with the monopoly for the route.......not that its a huge route, but I do see KL's 747 combi there quite often...I wonder if they will change that to some other plane also....

cough, cough...I see this route perfect for a brand spanking new KL 787

I've learned after talking to many Dutchmen on Airliners.net... ive learned that KL611/612 (ORD-AMS/AMS-ORD) is an important destination for KL. I found out that Chicago is important because of the freight that comes from Amsterdam.
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laca773
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RE: UA Cuts IAD-SJO, SFO-CDG; Suspends ORD-AMS

Tue Sep 06, 2005 11:31 am

With all this talk about alliances perhaps UA will start an FRA service out of SFO instead? This is just a thought. Any ideas since they are very very cozy with LH?

LACA773
 
LAXintl
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RE: UA Cuts IAD-SJO, SFO-CDG; Suspends ORD-AMS

Tue Sep 06, 2005 11:33 am

Quoting LACA773 (Reply 37):
With all this talk about alliances perhaps UA will start an FRA service out of SFO instead?

United allready flies a daily B747-400 SFO-FRA in addition to a Lufthansa B744.
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