beefer
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NWA Says Talks To Resume With Mechanics On Thurs.

Thu Sep 08, 2005 3:39 am

The Minneapolis StarTribune is reporting that Northwest has announced that talks are to resume with the Mechanics union on Thursday.

http://www.startribune.com/stories/1778/5601573.html

This announcement comes one day after a letter sent to the Unions on Tuesday night, and released by the airline on Wednesday, threatened to begin hiring permanent replacements for the 4,427 strikers by Sept. 13.

A Union spokeman says they have not been notified of any planned talks.

[Edited 2005-09-07 20:44:40]
 
FlyBoeing
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RE: NWA Says Talks To Resume With Mechanics On Thurs.

Thu Sep 08, 2005 4:05 am

There seems to be an inconsistency here - why would Northwest bother to deal with the old strikers when they seem to be operating well with their replacements?

The company line has been that they've beaten the strike and can operate indefinitely with the replacements.

Are the new mechanics not panning out? Is the situation so desperate that Northwest needs - heaven forbid - mechanics to work for even less than the replacements?

My feeling is that this might be tied to the FAA investigation in some way.
 
KarlB737
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RE: NWA Says Talks To Resume With Mechanics On Thurs.

Thu Sep 08, 2005 4:35 am

 
AirRyan
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RE: NWA Says Talks To Resume With Mechanics On Thurs.

Thu Sep 08, 2005 4:49 am

Maybe it is to reiterate one final time what the deal is or NWA will basically declare the AMFA mechs gone and go forth with their plans to make the replacement mechs permanent?
 
KarlB737
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RE: NWA Says Talks To Resume With Mechanics On Thurs.

Thu Sep 08, 2005 4:59 am

From The KSTP-TV Report:

"the airline saying it needs even bigger cuts than the ones mechanics struck over."
 
LAXintl
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RE: NWA Says Talks To Resume With Mechanics On Thurs.

Thu Sep 08, 2005 5:00 am

Lets see if AMFA has been humbled enough to take what NWA offers.

If not as mentioned this will be a green light to make many of the replacement workers permanent.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
planenutz
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RE: NWA Says Talks To Resume With Mechanics On Thurs.

Thu Sep 08, 2005 5:21 am

It appears that NW has officially broken the strike.
The union has agreed to return to the negotiating table only after NW said that it would start hiring replacement workers into permanent positions on Sept. 13. This effectively means that when striking mechanics return to work, they'll be terminated or laid off.

Also, NW wants to approach the negotiating table with even deeper cuts to the mechanics:

"Our last best offer which was presented to you on August 18 was based on economic circumstances that no longer exist today," said the letter to Delle-Femine from Julie Hagen Showers, Northwest's vice president for labor relations. "While the company was prepared to stand behind that offer in order to obtain a consensual agreement, unfortunately we are no longer able to do so."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050907/ap_on_bi_ge/northwest_mechanics

Obviously, NW sees itself in a position to be agressive in it's demands. Ouch.

Additionally, NW says it will only return striking mechanics to work at its hubs. Spoke stations will probably use third party contractors for all maintenance.

I hate to say it, but AMFA nay have shot itself in the foot with this one.
Not all who wander are lost....
 
m404
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RE: NWA Says Talks To Resume With Mechanics On Thurs.

Thu Sep 08, 2005 7:57 am

It would seem obvious that maintenance efficiency will increase if many of AMFAs techs return to offered jobs at the new rates. Their experience is priceless if they can adapt to the new workplace. I have no doubt that NW would like many to return despite the public rhetoric about the present programs success. I also have no doubt that this program was only meant to last little more than a month before a shakeout with temporary workers placed far from home and probably more experienced (airplane specific) home based AMFA represented technicians could fill in the widening gaps.

My oft repeated question is still whether NW can get beneficial contracts completed and affirmatively voted on before any Oct. 17 deadline makes them moot. Does NW think a workforce that agrees to vastly lesser contracts is worth more than one forced from abrogation? Some powerful number crunching has to be going on in Minneapolis.
Less sarcasm and more thought equal better understanding
 
aviationwiz
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RE: NWA Says Talks To Resume With Mechanics On Thurs.

Thu Sep 08, 2005 8:13 am

Quoting FlyBoeing (Reply 1):
Is the situation so desperate that Northwest needs - heaven forbid - mechanics to work for even less than the replacements?

The scabs are more than likely being paid more than NW would pay the AMFA mechs if a deal is reached.

Why? Pay is usually the number one reason for scabs to become scabs, for higher pay then they are at now.
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KarlB737
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RE: NWA Says Talks To Resume With Mechanics On Thurs.

Thu Sep 08, 2005 8:21 am

 
supa7E7
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RE: NWA Says Talks To Resume With Mechanics On Thurs.

Thu Sep 08, 2005 8:56 am

Quoting M404 (Reply 7):
Does NW think a workforce that agrees to vastly lesser contracts is worth more than one forced from abrogation?

It's not only about the workforce. Yeah, agreeing to bad terms is better than having them imposed.

But there are many, many reasons (lawyers... aircraft deliveries screwed) why NWA wishes to avoid bankruptcy. If the workers allow it, NWA can avoid it in my opinion. If not, NW will file for BK and the workers will feel lots more pain and will gain nothing.
"Who's to say spaceships aren't fine art?" - Phil Lesh
 
legacytravel
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RE: NWA Says Talks To Resume With Mechanics On Thurs.

Thu Sep 08, 2005 9:33 am

My take on this is this: NWA will ask for deeper cuts than previous ones, they will also ask for different work rules, maybe give back of vacation time etc....
Bottom line is they have showed the AMFA that they can live without them and this is one last chance to get their members back on the job.
I highly doubt that AMFA will accept the new offer. If the do they will have gotten the biggest ass-whipping from a company in a long long time. It will show everybody the text book way on how to beat a union.

Mark in MKE
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m404
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RE: NWA Says Talks To Resume With Mechanics On Thurs.

Thu Sep 08, 2005 9:43 am

Supa7E7

I quite agree - but it's only 38 days until all contracts have to be in if the Oct 17 date is important as assumed for BK rules. Thats ALPA, IAM, AMFA, Flight Att (Sorry but I can remember union), dispatchers, meteorologists, and whatever else. Voting usually takes a bare minimum of 14/20 days. IAM is remaining low key but the overall schedule for negotiations for IAM alone has only 6 more days in September. That is simply not enough time considering what little ground has been covered.
Less sarcasm and more thought equal better understanding
 
FlyBoeing
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RE: NWA Says Talks To Resume With Mechanics On Thurs.

Thu Sep 08, 2005 10:19 am

I'm sensing a different angle here. A guy on the Yahoo! finance board asserts that NWA will lose its ETOPS certification in 14 days due to the FAA investigation. I honestly don't think that's completely outlandish given what happened a few weeks ago in Hawaii.

If Northwest loses ETOPS they'll have to operate their A330s domestically and put the 747s on the routes that the A330s used to fly internationally.

Again - this is wild speculation but nothing about Northwest's management will surprise me.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: NWA Says Talks To Resume With Mechanics On Thurs.

Thu Sep 08, 2005 10:34 am

Quoting FlyBoeing (Reply 13):
A guy on the Yahoo! finance board asserts that NWA will lose its ETOPS certification in 14 days due to the FAA investigation.

A guy who ranted quite a bit about putting NW into chapter 7 and getting high at the dentist... Not to mention his comment to NW shutting down JFK-NRT was "good job" as if anything but fuel prices and competition had anything to do with it. I'll doubt that source.

Recall that it was one FAA inspector who showed up with the large number of discrepancies. NW will be flying ETOPS for a while.

It looks like NW won this round. I'm betting the IAM will represent the temp mechanics hired on permanently at the hubs as there is no way the AMFA is going to accept the new offer.

Quoting M404 (Reply 12):
but it's only 38 days until all contracts have to be in if the Oct 17 date is important as assumed for BK rules. Thats ALPA, IAM, AMFA, Flight Att (Sorry but I can remember union), dispatchers, meteorologists, and whatever else. Voting usually takes a bare minimum of 14/20 days. IAM is remaining low key but the overall schedule for negotiations for IAM alone has only 6 more days in September. That is simply not enough time considering what little ground has been covered.

Given a choice, I bet the unions will be able to move quick. I think the IAM is waiting to see how many new members they gather. ALPA is already at the table. The stumbling block will be the F/A's... NW is going to come out with a much better structure to compete in the LCC environment.

Lightsaber
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Rhino4ever
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RE: NWA Says Talks To Resume With Mechanics On Thurs.

Thu Sep 08, 2005 10:59 am

Yahoo finance a source for anything????  Sad
 
legendDC9
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RE: NWA Says Talks To Resume With Mechanics On Thurs.

Thu Sep 08, 2005 12:26 pm

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 14):
It looks like NW won this round. I'm betting the IAM will represent the temp mechanics hired on permanently at the hubs as there is no way the AMFA is going to accept the new offer.

Why is it so certain that the IAM will jump in represent the new mechanics? Why would they vote in a union at all? Did they just forget how one stupid union's moves got them these jobs in the first place? Then they are going to turn around and bring in another cancer like IAM? Gotta be smart, no union, no categorization, no one solution.
 
AirRyan
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RE: NWA Says Talks To Resume With Mechanics On Thurs.

Thu Sep 08, 2005 12:34 pm

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 14):
Given a choice, I bet the unions will be able to move quick. I think the IAM is waiting to see how many new members they gather. ALPA is already at the table. The stumbling block will be the F/A's... NW is going to come out with a much better structure to compete in the LCC environment.

That's my opinion as well, I think NWA is making some hard but very well thought out business decisions that will help it become viable in the longterm.

Quoting LegendDC9 (Reply 16):
Why is it so certain that the IAM will jump in represent the new mechanics?

I guess it may be a possibility but most likely they will join a union and IAM will be the one they join. IAM used to rep NWA mechs but AMFA came in and made a bunch of promises that sound good but in reality were too good becuase they couldn't fulfill them. I personally wouldn't want to join a union but you choose the profession and in Minnesota you don't have much of a choice do you?
 
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lightsaber
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RE: NWA Says Talks To Resume With Mechanics On Thurs.

Thu Sep 08, 2005 1:52 pm

Quoting LegendDC9 (Reply 16):
Why is it so certain that the IAM will jump in represent the new mechanics? Why would they vote in a union at all? Did they just forget how one stupid union's moves got them these jobs in the first place? Then they are going to turn around and bring in another cancer like IAM? Gotta be smart, no union, no categorization, no one solution.

Do I think NW wants a union? No. But lets think this through:
1. The IAM is going to give concessions and possible staffing cuts (read, cut in union dues due to fewer members). They'll want something in "return for concessions." New union members will help make the union management happy. It also gives a block of new voters likely to go along with the contract.
2. 800 jobs already transferring to IAM (union happy to get some dues back)
3. NW will get the rights to outsource quite a high fraction of the mechanics work.

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
zvezda
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RE: NWA Says Talks To Resume With Mechanics On Thurs.

Thu Sep 08, 2005 2:11 pm

My heart goes out to the replacement mechanics. I hope they get permanent jobs and I hope they are smart enough to stay out of the mafia/unions. Then I hope the striking workers learn the lessons of their mistakes and go on to find good non-union jobs elsewhere. That would be the best solution for the workers, for NW, for the shareholders, for passengers, and for the economy at large. Only the mafia loses.

Mafia control over labor has been declining for a long time in the States, as evidenced by the declining number of union members. The airline industry has been one of the last bastions where the mafia has retained control of labor. Perhaps this will be the beginning of freedom for labor in the airline industry.
 
uadc8contrail
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RE: NWA Says Talks To Resume With Mechanics On Thurs.

Thu Sep 08, 2005 3:43 pm

where is the savior burnsie28 to save us any more heart ache and let us know what is going on at the house of doug......come on chris...fill us in......
bus driver.......move that bus:)
 
dl757md
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RE: NWA Says Talks To Resume With Mechanics On Thurs.

Thu Sep 08, 2005 5:01 pm

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 18):
1. The IAM is going to give concessions and possible staffing cuts (read, cut in union dues due to fewer members). They'll want something in "return for concessions." New union members will help make the union management happy. It also gives a block of new voters likely to go along with the contract.
2. 800 jobs already transferring to IAM (union happy to get some dues back)
3. NW will get the rights to outsource quite a high fraction of the mechanics work.

It's not up to NWA whether the replacement mechs would become part of any union if they become permanent. Workers must vote in a union. I highly doubt that if they do get to the point that they are faced with the decision on whether to vote in a union that they will be seriously considering the IAM. At least not if they go back and look at what that union did for NWA mechs in the 90s.

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 17):
IAM used to rep NWA mechs but AMFA came in and made a bunch of promises that sound good but in reality were too good because they couldn't fulfill them. I personally wouldn't want to join a union but you choose the profession and in Minnesota you don't have much of a choice do you?

Air Ryan I'll ask you this again. Please show me something concrete (other than what you've read in a forum) that backs up your contention that AMFA made a bunch of promises they couldn't fulfill. Also, in MN if you don't vote in a union in the first place you don't have any union to unwillingly join now do you. As I said it will be up to the scabs to vote in a union if they get permanent positions.

Dl757Md
757 Most beautiful airliner in the sky!
 
Shenzhen
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RE: NWA Says Talks To Resume With Mechanics On Thurs.

Thu Sep 08, 2005 6:27 pm

S&P Downgrades Northwest As Labor Troubles Continue

The Wall Street Journal   09/07/05

author: Amy Merrick

(Copyright (c) 2005, Dow Jones & Company, Inc.)


As post-Katrina fuel prices complicate the efforts of Northwest Airlines to
avoid a bankruptcy-court filing, Standard & Poor's cut the carrier's credit
ratings further into junk territory and said they could fall even more.



"Northwest is managing through a strike by its mechanics well, but dramatically
increased fuel expense and delays in securing needed concessions from other
unions have deepened losses and are eroding its liquidity," S&P credit analyst
Philip Baggaley wrote in his report.



"Northwest will file for bankruptcy protection if new labor agreements are not
agreed upon in the near future," Mr. Baggaley said, but he added, "but only the
pilot talks appear to be making material progress."



The ratings firm cut Northwest to Triple-C- from Triple-C+. Northwest's rating
already held high-yield, or "junk," status. Northwest declined to comment on the
move.



The airline has said rising fuel costs are forcing it to request greater labor
concessions and to decide more quickly whether to file for bankruptcy-law
protection. Northwest said it now expects fuel expenses for this year to
increase more than 50% over 2004, to $3.3 billion.



Northwest, based in St. Paul, Minn., also has been dealing with a strike by its
4,400 mechanics and cleaners represented by the Aircraft Mechanics Fraternal
Association, who walked off the job Aug. 20. The airline has continued flying
with replacement workers, managers and outside contractors handling maintenance.



Yesterday the airline said its on-time performance Monday was above 80% -- its
highest level since the strike began -- and its cancellation rate was about 1%,
its lowest level since the strike began.



Although AMFA members rallied at Labor Day parades, the Web site for the union's
Local 33, based in Minneapolis, has begun posting a list of available jobs at
rival airlines and in other industries.



Concerned that a Chapter 11 filing would wipe out Northwest's pensions, leaders
of the pilots union voted last week to reopen contract negotiations with the
company.



Meanwhile, the Federal Aviation Administration is investigating the complaints
of one of its inspectors, who was temporarily reassigned from his work at
Northwest. The inspector alleged that about 470 FAA reports on the airline's
maintenance, spanning 11 days, weren't entered into an electronic database,
enabling Northwest to avoid closer scrutiny.



A letter spelling out the allegations, sent to the FAA by Sen. Mark Dayton, a
Minnesota Democrat, claimed 58% to 90% of the inspector reports cited defects,
compared with a defect rate of 3% to 5% for Northwest before the strike.
According to the letter, a 9% defect rate would trigger an
internal FAA alert
. Northwest said it is in contact with regulators about
the allegations.

 
keesje
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RE: NWA Says Talks To Resume With Mechanics On Thurs.

Thu Sep 08, 2005 10:50 pm

Northwest Airlines will resume talks with striking mechanics,

deeper cuts sought..

http://www.chicagotribune.com/busine...832409.story?coll=chi-business-hed

 box 
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
supa7E7
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RE: NWA Says Talks To Resume With Mechanics On Thurs.

Thu Sep 08, 2005 11:37 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 19):
Mafia control over labor has been declining for a long time in the States, as evidenced by the declining number of union members.

Yes but sadly the Mafia still controls our public schools through an organization called NEA, the nation's most powerful union.

The Mafia also controls a number of government-sector workers whose employer lacks the crucial ability to declare bankruptcy. It's an infinite gravy train for them.
"Who's to say spaceships aren't fine art?" - Phil Lesh
 
KarlB737
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RE: NWA Says Talks To Resume With Mechanics On Thurs.

Thu Sep 08, 2005 11:47 pm

Courtesy: WCCO-TV

Video Report Included

http://www.wcco.com/strike
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Courtesy: KSTP-TV Report

http://kstp.com/article/stories/S10359.html?cat=1

Video Report:

http://kstp.dayport.com/viewer/viewerpage.php?Art_ID=162880
 
AirRyan
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RE: NWA Says Talks To Resume With Mechanics On Thurs.

Fri Sep 09, 2005 12:23 am

Quoting FlyBoeing (Reply 13):
If Northwest loses ETOPS they'll have to operate their A330s domestically and put the 747s on the routes that the A330s used to fly internationally.

ETOPS is a joke - what makes one A330 any different from another?

Quoting Dl757md (Reply 21):
Air Ryan I'll ask you this again. Please show me something concrete (other than what you've read in a forum) that backs up your contention that AMFA made a bunch of promises they couldn't fulfill.

If nonetheless as evident by the strike and the way NWA mangament has been able to live w/o the AMFA mechs. AMFA told the mechs they could get NWA managment to give them what they wanted and that they would not have to accept the cuts regardless as to the economy of the commercial aviation industry. Looks like AMFA lost that argument.

Quoting Shenzhen (Reply 22):
Although AMFA members rallied at Labor Day parades, the Web site for the union's
Local 33, based in Minneapolis, has begun posting a list of available jobs at
rival airlines and in other industries.

They should have been doing that before the mechs went on strike. I know for a fact that there are plenty of A&P vacancies with other airlines right now like America West and even Southwest. Phoenix and Dallas aren't like they would be causing undue heartache to the mechs that would be cut under the NWA concessions.

Quoting Shenzhen (Reply 22):
Meanwhile, the Federal Aviation Administration is investigating the complaints
of one of its inspectors, who was temporarily reassigned from his work at
Northwest. The inspector alleged that about 470 FAA reports on the airline's
maintenance, spanning 11 days, weren't entered into an electronic database,
enabling Northwest to avoid closer scrutiny.

That's like 43 reports a day - was the inspector doing his job or writing reports?!

Quoting Supa7e7 (Reply 24):
Yes but sadly the Mafia still controls our public schools through an organization called NEA, the nation's most powerful union.

And I would point out that public teachers are on average nationwide some of the most underpaid for the amounts of education they are forced to pay for. I wouldn't exactly call NEA's efforts succesfull.
 
planefreakaa
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RE: NWA Says Talks To Resume With Mechanics On Thurs.

Fri Sep 09, 2005 12:48 am

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 26):
ETOPS is a joke - what makes one A330 any different from another?

do you even know what etops is, i doubt you do.
etops is serious stuff to the FAA, if you have a problem with a system one too many times, the FAA will take away your ability to fly etops, meaning that you have to burn more fuel to get where you want to go.
pull your head out of your former marine airwinger ass and learn the civilian world....
 
flanker
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RE: NWA Says Talks To Resume With Mechanics On Thurs.

Fri Sep 09, 2005 7:25 am

They dont even deserve a job. a Disgrace.
Calling an illegal alien an 'undocumented immigrant' is like calling a drug dealer an unlicensed pharmacist
 
beefer
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RE: NWA Says Talks To Resume With Mechanics On Thurs.

Fri Sep 09, 2005 7:26 am

NWA, mechanics continue to talk

http://www.startribune.com/stories/1778/5604269.html

Jeff Matthews, a negotiator with the Aircraft Mechanics Fraternal Association (AMFA), said company and union negotiators met face-to-face for 30 minutes Thursday. At the end of the meeting, AMFA asked Northwest for a written proposal.
 
aviationwiz
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RE: NWA Says Talks To Resume With Mechanics On Thurs.

Fri Sep 09, 2005 11:34 am

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 14):
I'm betting the IAM will represent the temp mechanics hired on permanently at the hubs as there is no way the AMFA is going to accept the new offer.

Why a union would represent scabs is beyond me.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 19):
I hope they are smart enough to stay out of the mafia/unions.

Did I miss something? Did AMFA all of a sudden turn to violence? When did they kill Steenland? Man, stupid CNN Breaking News alerts, they don't work at all.

Quoting Supa7e7 (Reply 24):
Yes but sadly the Mafia still controls our public schools through an organization called NEA, the nation's most powerful union.

The NEA may have the most members, but they have almost no influence compared to the IBT or SEIU. The IBT is the back-bone of organized labor.
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