flyinTLow
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AI To Redirect All US Flights Through FRA

Fri Sep 09, 2005 5:48 pm

Hi everyone.

Maybe this is just a very old rumor or beyond old news for everyone in this forum, but I heard a rumor at work the other day, and i couldn't find anything after a quick search through the forum:

I heard that AI was planning on routing all of their US flights through FRA. Does anyone know anything about that? I mean on the one side it would definitly make sense, to start a hub in FRA and to route flights from all kinds of Indian destinations to all kinds of US destinations. It would definitly make US travel easier from more remote indian destinations, instead of having to go through BOM and FRA. On the other hand, it would probably totally over-saturate the India-FRA market...

Let me hear your comments on this!

Cheers,

Thilo
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jaysit
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RE: AI To Redirect All US Flights Through FRA

Fri Sep 09, 2005 10:12 pm

I doubt if they'll ever give up their UK-US rights.

Plus, having taken the EWR-CDG flights, I can attest that they have no problem picking up CDG-US traffic in all classes.
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PanAm747
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RE: AI To Redirect All US Flights Through FRA

Fri Sep 09, 2005 11:53 pm

The only reason I could ever see AI "dumping" any routes out of LHR would be because of the curfew. Several flights arriving late from India have missed allotted take-off times and have had to be re-scheduled for the next day. However, given the fact that LHR-USA flights are limited, it is highly doubtful they would ever voluntarily give that up.

FRA and CDG, however, do not have any curfews (AFAIK). Please correct me if I'm mistaken.

I've always wondered why AI hasn't run a couple of flights through Manchester - a fairly modern and expansive airport in a growing part of the UK. It would seem they might be able to take advantage of non-Indian bound O&D passengers on these routes.
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Nimish
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RE: AI To Redirect All US Flights Through FRA

Sat Sep 10, 2005 12:48 am

I think this might be more of "all new flights to the US will go through FRA". Though I've heard (on this forum) that LH isn't too happy with that plan either, since AI prices it's premium classes much lower than LH does!

All in all, it would be a great plan, especially if they can get true integration with LH's USA network.

Currently they offer BOM/DEL -> LHR direct flights, but pretty much the rest of the country has to connect via the hell hole of BOM. I can see a lot of appreciation for a BLR/MAA->FRA->LHR type of connection on AI/LH, rather than the current BLR/MAA->BOM->LHR offering that AI has. But then with BA flying non-stop from BLR/MAA to LHR, why would anyone want to connect through FRA or BOM (except me, who will steer far away from BA due to the lack of FFP mileage on economy)
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drerx7
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RE: AI To Redirect All US Flights Through FRA

Sat Sep 10, 2005 12:50 am

So the future Texas flights will be via FRA?
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TonyBurr
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RE: AI To Redirect All US Flights Through FRA

Sat Sep 10, 2005 1:31 am

I cannot believe they would drop their London - New York flights since they pick up new passengers there?
 
gamps
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RE: AI To Redirect All US Flights Through FRA

Sat Sep 10, 2005 2:57 am

The only reason I could ever see AI "dumping" any routes out of LHR would be because of the curfew

Other big reason being the DAT transit visa requirement (Direct Airside Transit) for Indian nationals at UK even when they remain airside. They are exempt if they hold a valid US or Candian visa, but in some cases folks returning from US to India (with used visa or visiting India for extending their expired visa etc) do not hold these and are offloaded if they don't have a transit visa.

So in short a big pain. This requirement by UK is surprising even after the asylum cases from India have decreased by leaps and bounds.

Germany has postponed the transit requirement indefinitely for Indian nationals, so no surprise that AI is increasing flights through FRA.
 
blrsea
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RE: AI To Redirect All US Flights Through FRA

Sat Sep 10, 2005 3:08 am

I beleive it is the same in case of Germany too. Check out this from the German Embassy in India...

http://www.germanembassy-india.org/en/willkommen/visa/transit.html

Quote:
Indian airport transit travellers who are holder of:

a residence title of a member state of the European Union (Visa or residence permit) or a member state of the European Economic Area (EEA, i.e. Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway) or,

a permanent residence permit of Andorra, Japan, Canada, Monaco, San Marino, Switzerland or the USA

do not require a transit visa.

Indian airport transit travellers, who are holding a valid visa for the USA, Canada or Switzerland are not obliged to obtain a transit visa prior to departure. Until further notice for these travellers a “visa on arrival” will be issued by the competent authorities at the respective German airport and no specific action is required from them to obtain these visa.

All other Indian airport transit travellers require a transit visa prior to departure to Germany.
 
Leskova
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RE: AI To Redirect All US Flights Through FRA

Sat Sep 10, 2005 3:16 am

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 2):
FRA and CDG, however, do not have any curfews (AFAIK).

FRA does have a curfew - if I recall correctly, it's from midnight or 0:30/1:00 to 5 in the morning. Some exceptions apply, but in general, there's no significant amount of traffic during that time (maintenance flights are permitted, there some type of "homebase"-exception, and there's an exception for the domestic airmail system, but that'll - more or less - end soon).

Regards,
Frank
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aseem
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RE: AI To Redirect All US Flights Through FRA

Sat Sep 10, 2005 3:55 am

Quoting Blrsea (Reply 7):
All other Indian airport transit travellers require a transit visa prior to departure to Germany.

so the only ones falling into this trap are ordinary Indians who are flying to countries other than US, Canada and Switzerland, which in my opinion are very few. Who on Earth would like to go to AMS via FRA!! May look Draconian, but does not apply to many passenger.
They way the whole thing is structured, it is clearly directed against asylum seekers. If I remember correctly in one of previous threads on same topic, one of our South American fellow gave a clear example why this is being done .
rgds
VT-ASJ

[Edited 2005-09-09 20:57:50]
ala re ala, VT-ALA ala
 
blrsea
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RE: AI To Redirect All US Flights Through FRA

Sat Sep 10, 2005 4:23 am

What happens if your US visa has expired and you are flying back to india? And do they specifically mean stamp in passport? Many H1B/H4 holders might have had their passport stamp expired, while they map possess other valid 797 papers. I think these people too need transit visas as their US visa has expired. Many visitors typically stay over till their end date.
 
stirling
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RE: AI To Redirect All US Flights Through FRA

Sat Sep 10, 2005 4:32 am

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 2):
Several flights arriving late from India have missed allotted take-off times and have had to be re-scheduled for the next day.

What do they do with the passengers? Make them wait in the terminal or are they given a hotel voucher?

How often does this happen?

What is the cause for the delay?
Weather? ATC? Mechanical? Ground congestion at BOM etc?

Seems like AI would make special operational directives to make sure flights to curfew limited airports take priority over those where delays don't produce such wide-reaching effects to the system.
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gamps
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RE: AI To Redirect All US Flights Through FRA

Sat Sep 10, 2005 5:46 am

Quoting Aseem (Reply 9):
so the only ones falling into this trap are ordinary Indians who are flying to countries other than US, Canada and Switzerland, which in my opinion are very few

While the numbers are few, number of Indians flying to Latin America, Mexico through European hubs is increasing and they face this problem. What is odd is in majority of cases no one checks if you have transit visa or not when you land in LHR or FRA. But airlines are forced to enforce it anyway.

Quoting Blrsea (Reply 10):
What happens if your US visa has expired and you are flying back to india? And do they specifically mean stamp in passport?

Site clearly says it need to be a valid visa, though I have seen LH check-in staff not even checking the visa and issuing boarding pass. Other scenario where you can be denied boarding is when you have single entry visa to US or Canada (Canada issues single entry visas in most tourist visa cases) and now flying back to India.

Anyway more reasons to fly non-stop to India and avoid these European piss stops. Then they will realize one day how much revenue these transit passengers were bringing in. So more power to CO and AA for starting non-stops to India.
 
mrniji
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RE: AI To Redirect All US Flights Through FRA

Sat Sep 10, 2005 10:19 am

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 2):
FRA and CDG, however, do not have any curfews (AFAIK). Please correct me if I'm mistaken.

FRA does have one, as Leskova pointed out

Quoting Nimish (Reply 3):
Currently they offer BOM/DEL -> LHR direct flights, but pretty much the rest of the country has to connect via the hell hole of BOM

You forgot CCU! But taking up the point: it would be a surprise if AI intended this and would only make sense if the rest of India receives terminators to LHR, as addition to the feeders for the "quasi-hub" FRA. There is O&D between all over india and LHR, but hardly for FRA. Hence the latter flights would rather be scissor feeder for US flights.. but LHR needs nonstops from allover india as addition.. generally, this news seems hard to believe for me, and I guess AI will never suspend LHR-JFK and CDG-EWR, but would rather introduce these flights as addition with new a/c..

Quoting Stirling (Reply 11):
What do they do with the passengers? Make them wait in the terminal or are they given a hotel voucher?

Of course they are put into a hotel, what do you think? We might be a third world country but are well aware of IATA regulations, EU laws and some customer principles
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JoFMO
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RE: AI To Redirect All US Flights Through FRA

Sat Sep 10, 2005 10:39 am

FRA has no curfew. They are allowed for 24hours operation so far. But who wants to fly at 3:30?

Look at their homepage and you will find that the first leisure flights for today are leaving at 4:00 to Tenerife and Las Palmas; followed by a 4:10 departure to Catania and so on.

There are also some Cargo flights during the night.

But they will implement a curfew once the 4th runway opens. It was part of negotiation between the airport and the local residents. Curfew vs. New runway.
 
Jano
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RE: AI To Redirect All US Flights Through FRA

Sat Sep 10, 2005 11:07 am

Quoting Blrsea (Reply 10):
What happens if your US visa has expired and you are flying back to india?

Depends... since visa is used to enter the country only. One is allowed to stay in the USA until the day when one's status expires, even if the visa has expired long before.

H1B status expired and H1B visa expired = need to get new status
H1B status valid and H1B visa expired = need to get a new visa = formality
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blrsea
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RE: AI To Redirect All US Flights Through FRA

Sat Sep 10, 2005 11:51 am

Quoting Jano (Reply 15):
Depends... since visa is used to enter the country only. One is allowed to stay in the USA until the day when one's status expires, even if the visa has expired long before.

H1B status expired and H1B visa expired = need to get new status
H1B status valid and H1B visa expired = need to get a new visa = formality

I know these rules pretty well, however I was talking about them wrt Germany's requirement for transit visas for Indians not having valid US visas as they would have expired.

[Edited 2005-09-10 04:52:52]

[Edited 2005-09-10 04:53:13]
 
ramerinianair
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RE: AI To Redirect All US Flights Through FRA

Sat Sep 10, 2005 1:35 pm

How did AI get those London-USA flights? Are they into LHR or LGW?
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semsem
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RE: AI To Redirect All US Flights Through FRA

Sat Sep 10, 2005 2:02 pm

AI fly from Heathrow to New York since at least 40 years. I flew with them in 1968 on a 707 on this route. My father flew on an Air India Constellation from Rome to Cairo in 1950.

It's a great airline.

[Edited 2005-09-10 07:03:29]

[Edited 2005-09-10 07:04:07]
 
Leskova
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RE: AI To Redirect All US Flights Through FRA

Sat Sep 10, 2005 4:13 pm

Quoting JoFMO (Reply 14):
FRA has no curfew.

Yes, it does - but, as I mentioned above, it has restrictions.

Takeoffs for planes that conform to Chapter 3 noise levels can take off at any time, but...

Quote:
Flugzeuge der nach internationalem Maßstab geräuschärmsten Lärmkategorie (Kapitel 3) dürfen zwar während der Nacht uneingeschränkt starten, während einer nächtlichen Kernzeit gilt jedoch auch für diese Maschinen ein Landeverbot.
Seit dem Winterflugplan 2001 unterliegen die Nachtflugbewegungen auf Basis einer Verfügung des HMWVL einer Kontingentierung.

... landings are not permitted at night (unfortunately no mentioning of the exact times) - taken from (in German):
http://www.fraport.de/cms/infoservice_fluglaerm/dok/8/8488.faq_13.htm

Further info about FRA's night restrictions can be found here (in English):
http://www.fraport.com/cms/environme.../rubrik/3/3007.noise_abatement.htm

In other words, planes arriving here too late could still find themselves locked out and looking for another place to land.

Regards,
Frank
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flyinTLow
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RE: AI To Redirect All US Flights Through FRA

Sun Sep 11, 2005 12:17 am

Quoting JoFMO (Reply 14):
FRA has no curfew. They are allowed for 24hours operation so far

It's not a curfew, but more of an agreement between Fraport and its neighbors. Read what Leskova posted up there, and you will get all the details. But to sum it up:

no movements for foreign carriers between 0:00 and 5:00
no movements for local carriers between 1:00 and 4:00

But then on the other hand, that isn't working too well. Look at all the flights HF and DE have in those hours...
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COSPN
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RE: AI To Redirect All US Flights Through FRA

Sun Sep 11, 2005 8:13 pm

Blrsea:

What happens if your US visa has expired and you are flying back to india? And do they specifically mean stamp in passport? Many H1B/H4 holders might have had their passport stamp expired, while they map possess other valid 797 papers. I think these people too need transit visas as their US visa has expired. Many visitors typically stay over till their end date.

Guess you better fly CO EWR-DEL Non-stop  Smile Starts 1 Nov
 
Avianca
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RE: AI To Redirect All US Flights Through FRA

Sun Sep 11, 2005 8:30 pm

Quoting JoFMO (Reply 14):
FRA has no curfew. They are allowed for 24hours operation so far. But who wants to fly at 3:30?

Look at their homepage and you will find that the first leisure flights for today are leaving at 4:00 to Tenerife and Las Palmas; followed by a 4:10 departure to Catania and so on.

There are also some Cargo flights during the night.

I think they have one on the paper, but it is very very limitted. yes many leisure flights has a early depature. for example I travele this year 2 times between 02:30 and 03:30 am to short trips...

Also there are many cargo flights operating in the night + some US Airforce traffic.

regards
Avianca
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Avianca
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RE: AI To Redirect All US Flights Through FRA

Sun Sep 11, 2005 8:34 pm

one decision for AI to concentrate the US flights in FRA could be the airfreight...they are filling up the lax, ord flights ex fra with local german cargo, and there rates aren´t such low, so I can imagine that they are earning good amount of money on the routes based on cargo.

and the most important point would be the partnership with LH in Fra.

regards
Avianca
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jaysit
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RE: AI To Redirect All US Flights Through FRA

Mon Sep 12, 2005 1:21 am

Quoting Gamps (Reply 12):
Anyway more reasons to fly non-stop to India and avoid these European piss stops. Then they will realize one day how much revenue these transit passengers were bringing in. So more power to CO and AA for starting non-stops to India.

I agree. Plus, who the hell wants to be woken up at 3 am EST with a stale croissant just before landing in some godawful European airport.

Quoting Semsem (Reply 18):
It's a great airline.

Correction.
It WAS a great airline.
Atheism is Myth Understood.