rootsair
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And If An LCC Crashes Tomorrow?

Fri Sep 09, 2005 6:37 pm

I don't know if this has been discussed before and if yes, how long ago !

I really hope this doesn't happen but one must always keep in mind the possibility that such a thing can always happen.

What would happen if tomorrow, an FR, U2 , or any other LCC crashes? Wouldn't they be more vulnerable tham full thrills airlines. Not necessarily everybody knows where those airlines save up money so the general public may think they save costs on maintainance.. This could mean huge losses for all these airlines and it could be hard for them to get up again and not have their reputation ruined.

For example, look how ValueJet had to change its name to Air Tran...so that the name ValueJet would not give the airline prejudice.


What's your opinion ?
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747400F
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RE: And If An LCC Crashes Tomorrow?

Fri Sep 09, 2005 7:22 pm

I could very well have a very negative consequence if a crash could attributed to maintenance and/or training shortfalls (Like Helios 737 crash near Athens).
But if the cause of a crash (which I presume all hope will not take place) is ruled to be outside of the control of the airline in question (like the SAS MD87 crash in Milan) no bad press should be associated with the airline.
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Pe@rson
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RE: And If An LCC Crashes Tomorrow?

Fri Sep 09, 2005 7:31 pm

Safety is the number-one consideration for all airlines. Naive and ignorant people wrongly believe that low-cost carriers compromise safety in reducing their costs. This is not so. Indeed, because low-cost carriers are perceived to be less safe, they must in fact be extra safe. Why? Because a crash could have more repercussions for it than with a ‘normal’ airline because of this perception. If you’re after an example of the consequences of a crash on a low-cost airline, look no further than Valujet.

[Edited 2005-09-09 12:33:32]
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
cornish
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RE: And If An LCC Crashes Tomorrow?

Fri Sep 09, 2005 7:40 pm

Michael O'Leary (Ryanair) has always said that a crash would be one of the few things that could run his airline into the ground.

You have to remember that in many countries the LCCs are not popular with the establishment, and there would certainly be a lot of bad press (whether true or not) about cost cutting, etc being a contributing factor. If the big established traditional carriers saw a chance to play dirty and stir things up, feeding info to the press and the like, they most definitely would.
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Udo
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RE: And If An LCC Crashes Tomorrow?

Fri Sep 09, 2005 7:41 pm

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 2):
Indeed, because low-cost carriers are perceived to be less safe, they must in fact be extra safe.

But they are not "extra safe". You can't tell me LCC do more for safety than legacy carriers.


Regards
Udo
Me & You & a Plane Named Blue...
 
Pe@rson
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RE: And If An LCC Crashes Tomorrow?

Fri Sep 09, 2005 7:43 pm

Quoting Cornish (Reply 3):
You have to remember that in many countries the LCCs are not popular with the establishment, and there would certainly be a lot of bad press (whether true or not) about cost cutting, etc being a contributing factor. If the big established traditional carriers saw a chance to play dirty and stir things up, feeding info to the press and the like, they most definitely would.

Precisely! Another example of the media being liberal with the truth. Fools.

Quoting Cornish (Reply 3):
Michael O'Leary (Ryanair) has always said that a crash would be one of the few things that could run his airline into the ground.

He said a crash would indeed be one of the three things which would result in the collapse of the airline. I think this is a bit OTT, although it would certainly have bad consequences. Another factor, he said, would be his staff believing all the bullshit he comes out with.  Smile The third, I think, was a very bad natural disaster.
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
Pe@rson
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RE: And If An LCC Crashes Tomorrow?

Fri Sep 09, 2005 7:45 pm

Quoting Udo (Reply 4):
But they are not "extra safe". You can't tell me LCC do more for safety than legacy carriers.

Low-cost airlines must be seen as being extra safe: they have a much greater perception problem than traditional carriers, so the consequences of a fatal crash would be much worse. Neither you nor I know whether they are indeed extra safe - and we won't, unless we have inside information from professionals.
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
Billy
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RE: And If An LCC Crashes Tomorrow?

Fri Sep 09, 2005 7:48 pm

Rootsair,

You are a happy chappie. Is this really worth discussing. I really think that there are serious issues about oversight and airline regualtory competence in some countries, rather than specualting about U2 and FR crashes.
 
Udo
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RE: And If An LCC Crashes Tomorrow?

Fri Sep 09, 2005 7:49 pm

Quoting Cornish (Reply 3):
If the big established traditional carriers saw a chance to play dirty and stir things up, feeding info to the press and the like, they most definitely would.

The "press" as you prefer to generalize is not a bunch of naive idots. Just because Britain is famous for many crappy tabloid papers it doesn't mean the media in general would print every BS they are fed.

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 5):
Precisely! Another example of the media being liberal with the truth. Fools.

Fools are those who generalize about the media in an ignorant and disrespectful way.


Regards
Udo
Me & You & a Plane Named Blue...
 
Udo
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RE: And If An LCC Crashes Tomorrow?

Fri Sep 09, 2005 7:55 pm

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 6):
Neither you nor I know whether they are indeed extra safe - and we won't, unless we have inside information from professionals.

Exactly, we have no evidence about extra-safety. Therefore I won't believe it until I see it.


Regards
Udo
Me & You & a Plane Named Blue...
 
UN_B732
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RE: And If An LCC Crashes Tomorrow?

Fri Sep 09, 2005 8:10 pm

But I believe LCCs (reputable ones anyway) are EQUIVALENT in safety to the majors. Southwest Airlines hasn't lost a single person since 1978, probably the oldest LCC out there.
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cornish
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RE: And If An LCC Crashes Tomorrow?

Fri Sep 09, 2005 8:12 pm

Quoting Udo (Reply 8):
Just because Britain is famous for many crappy tabloid papers it doesn't mean the media in general would print every BS they are fed.

mmm and remind me what country Bild comes from will you  Wink
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Eirjet
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RE: And If An LCC Crashes Tomorrow?

Fri Sep 09, 2005 8:43 pm

Quoting Cornish (Reply 3):
Michael O'Leary (Ryanair) has always said that a crash would be one of the few things that could run his airline into the ground.

Their was an incident in the early days of Ryanair when one of its aircraft landed short of the runway in Cork - Grass and mud was found on the under carraige. MO'L was quoted as saying that that incident showed him how vunerable the airline was at the time, had it being a serious crash with fatalities it would have killed of Ryanair as an airline.

In the early days of LCC the general public were fed media story's of cost cutting on safety etc. I think that a good percentage of the flying public are better informed as to the kind of business models that these airlines run, and that the cost cutting is on complimentary services such as inflight meals, business class lounges and the like.

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 6):
Quoting Udo (Reply 4):
But they are not "extra safe". You can't tell me LCC do more for safety than legacy carriers.

Low-cost airlines must be seen as being extra safe: they have a much greater perception problem than traditional carriers, so the consequences of a fatal crash would be much worse. Neither you nor I know whether they are indeed extra safe - and we won't, unless we have inside information from professionals.

Again I must quote a statement that I believe O'Leary made (correct me if i'm wrong) about LCC safety. He basically said that with the savings the airline makes through it service they have more to spend on maintenance. His aircraft fly more rotations daily that Aer Lingus (I believe the quote was in the Irish media using an Irish comparison), therefore his crews are more alert and tuned to procedures and the aircraft are constantly on the move therefore if you will the engine and motor is continuously moving !!!!!
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7LBAC111
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RE: And If An LCC Crashes Tomorrow?

Fri Sep 09, 2005 8:55 pm

Quoting Billy (Reply 7):
Rootsair,

You are a happy chappie. Is this really worth discussing. I really think that there are serious issues about oversight and airline regualtory competence in some countries, rather than specualting about U2 and FR crashes.

I can understand why the question is asked, but I feel given the amount of fatal crashes recently, it is somewhat inappropriate.

7LBAC11
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Udo
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RE: And If An LCC Crashes Tomorrow?

Fri Sep 09, 2005 9:05 pm

Quoting Cornish (Reply 11):
mmm and remind me what country Bild comes from will you

No educated person takes Bild serious. What are your other examples?

Quoting Eirjet (Reply 12):
He basically said that with the savings the airline makes through it service they have more to spend on maintenance.

Sure, and the low fares are financed by what?

Quoting Eirjet (Reply 12):
His aircraft fly more rotations daily that Aer Lingus (I believe the quote was in the Irish media using an Irish comparison), therefore his crews are more alert and tuned to procedures and the aircraft are constantly on the move therefore if you will the engine and motor is continuously moving !!!!!

Not a good argument by MOL, as often.


Regards
Udo
Me & You & a Plane Named Blue...
 
Pe@rson
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RE: And If An LCC Crashes Tomorrow?

Fri Sep 09, 2005 9:13 pm

Quoting Udo (Reply 8):
Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 5):
Precisely! Another example of the media being liberal with the truth. Fools.


Fools are those who generalize about the media in an ignorant and disrespectful way.

LOL. Nice that both Cornish and I think that's nonsense.  Smile

Quoting Udo (Reply 9):
Exactly, we have no evidence about extra-safety. Therefore I won't believe it until I see it.

Then why hasn't WN - who have flown over 10 million flights - ever had a fatal crash? A fatal crash will occur, on average, per 2 million flights in the USA. So WN should have had a fair number of 'em by now. But it has not had one. Is this merely a coincidence? I think not. Indeed, WN is known for being exceedingly safety-conscious and thus doing more than what you might expect. I should think that a similar, if not identical, approach is taken by all the major low-cost airlines, for they all have (at least) one thing in common: if a fatal crash happens, the consequences could be worse for them than for 'traditional' carriers. Why? Because people wrongly believe that they are not as safe as 'traditional' carriers. This perception, albeit unfair and wrong, can act as a push: it means that the airline must do whatever it can to ensure that a fatal crash does not happen, i.e. the best training and maintenance, etc. It could act like a gun to your head.
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cornish
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RE: And If An LCC Crashes Tomorrow?

Fri Sep 09, 2005 9:15 pm

Quoting Udo (Reply 14):
No educated person takes Bild serious. What are your other examples?

Exactly but then a lot its readers fly low cost I bet. Remind me of its circulation.....

But my point being is that shock stories often sell newspapers. And a lot of rumours and speculation get in ALL newspapers. look at some of the many confusing things that were suggested about Helios following the crash - some warrented,some unwarrented. It only takes the mere hint of a suggestion that low cost = unsafe and there are certain people who would be scared off. My point being that the established carriers are not beyond a few dirty smear stories leaking out here and there and a few myths being put about, in the UK or any other country.

Edited for typos....

[Edited 2005-09-09 14:27:25]
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flyAUA
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RE: And If An LCC Crashes Tomorrow?

Fri Sep 09, 2005 9:23 pm

Quoting RootsAir (Thread starter):
What would happen if tomorrow, an FR, U2 , or any other LCC crashes?

Then everybody will point the finger and say that they crashed because they were cutting expenditure in terms of safety. A LCC would suffer from a crash much more than a traditional carrier would since people will make a connection with the fares and safety. If BA, LH, OS crash tomorrow... people wouldn't worry about it for as long as they would with a LCC. The scary part though is that LCCs are probably even stricter on maintenance than traditional carriers, yet the majority of people will now aknowledge/realise this.
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Shenzhen
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RE: And If An LCC Crashes Tomorrow?

Fri Sep 09, 2005 9:24 pm

I think any airline that suffers a crash, better have a plan that they can implement immediately, so that they don't suffer the harsh criticism of the press.

The airline needs to be the one releasing information, quickly and accurately.
 
Billy
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RE: And If An LCC Crashes Tomorrow?

Fri Sep 09, 2005 9:28 pm

7LBAC111 (just realised it is Air Belfast in your title).

The point I was making is that there are serious concerns about how airlines in countries are regulated and supervised for safety. The crashes have largely occurred with undercapitalised, small fleet airlines based in countries that may have difficulties getting the right people to oversee and apply the safety regime.

I notice that Indonesia is now introducing a ban on older aircraft similar to the one that the UK and now the EU has implemented older aircraft. Even the UAE is introducing such a rule.

However, the debate is not exclusively about aircraft age. I think we are missing the picture if we speculate about a U2/FR crash.
 
Pe@rson
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RE: And If An LCC Crashes Tomorrow?

Fri Sep 09, 2005 9:28 pm

Quoting Udo (Reply 14):
Sure, and the low fares are financed by what?

You forget that low-cost airlines, if they neglect the all-important issue of safety, will suffer greatly if they have a fatal crash. Therefore, it is absurd to argue that they will willingly cut corners in order to reduce costs, thereby increasing the risk of a fatal crash. They will rightly reduce costs in other areas. This pool of money, plus retained profit plus any other money saved back, will finance such things, as well as future expansion.

[Edited 2005-09-09 14:29:42]
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
Pe@rson
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RE: And If An LCC Crashes Tomorrow?

Fri Sep 09, 2005 9:31 pm

Quoting FlyAUA (Reply 17):
Then everybody will point the finger and say that they crashed because they were cutting expenditure in terms of safety. A LCC would suffer from a crash much more than a traditional carrier would since people will make a connection with the fares and safety. If BA, LH, OS crash tomorrow... people wouldn't worry about it for as long as they would with a LCC. The scary part though is that LCCs are probably even stricter on maintenance than traditional carriers, yet the majority of people will now aknowledge/realise this.

Precisely!
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
Udo
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RE: And If An LCC Crashes Tomorrow?

Fri Sep 09, 2005 10:30 pm

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 15):
Then why hasn't WN - who have flown over 10 million flights - ever had a fatal crash?

Good maintenance, well trained pilots and luck.

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 15):
A fatal crash will occur, on average, per 2 million flights in the USA. So WN should have had a fair number of 'em by now.

Only if you don't know how to deal with statistics.

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 15):
But it has not had one. Is this merely a coincidence? I think not. Indeed, WN is known for being exceedingly safety-conscious and thus doing more than what you might expect.

They do more than, say United or Delta? How do you know?

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 15):
I should think that a similar, if not identical, approach is taken by all the major low-cost airlines

Speculation.

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 15):
t means that the airline must do whatever it can to ensure that a fatal crash does not happen, i.e. the best training and maintenance, etc. It could act like a gun to your head.

So you suggest BA, LH or others don't do whatever they can in order to prevent a fatal accident?

Quoting Cornish (Reply 16):
Exactly but then a lot its readers fly low cost I bet. Remind me of its circulation.....

That's true, but you generalized about ALL media, don't forget.

Quoting Cornish (Reply 16):
But my point being is that shock stories often sell newspapers. And a lot of rumours and speculation get in ALL newspapers. look at some of the many confusing things that were suggested about Helios following the crash - some warrented,some unwarrented.

Any evidence maybe? I didn't read crappy reports in FAZ (Frankfurter Allgemeine), and not even in my regional paper (which gets articles from dpa mainly).

Quoting FlyAUA (Reply 17):
The scary part though is that LCCs are probably even stricter on maintenance than traditional carriers, yet the majority of people will now aknowledge/realise this.

Probably. Certain LCC (not the large ones) probably also save costs where they shouldn't.

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 20):
Therefore, it is absurd to argue that they will willingly cut corners in order to reduce costs, thereby increasing the risk of a fatal crash.

Attention: I only opposed the comment about savings in service being used for better maintenance. Not offering any service (both on the ground and in the air) is one key aspect for being able to offer low fares - so they cannot just cut service, use all the saved money for maintenance and still offer low fares. Savings in service is the basis for low fares.


Regards
Udo
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rootsair
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RE: And If An LCC Crashes Tomorrow?

Fri Sep 09, 2005 10:55 pm

Quoting 7LBAC111 (Reply 13):
I can understand why the question is asked, but I feel given the amount of fatal crashes recently, it is somewhat inappropriate.

well this is exactly why I bring the subject up. I know it may not be on anyone's taste but I wanted to see how differently people would react with a LCC carrier as compared to a legacy carrier

Regards

BM
A man without the knowledge of his past history,culture and origins is like a tree without roots
 
SkyexRamper
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RE: And If An LCC Crashes Tomorrow?

Fri Sep 09, 2005 11:39 pm

Quoting RootsAir (Thread starter):
For example, look how ValueJet had to change its name to Air Tran

ValueJet didn't just change it's name, they were bought out by Air Tran which was an Orlando airline that flew 737-200s. Airtran isn't ValueJet.


This what airtran was before the ValueJet purchase.


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NASCARAirforce
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RE: And If An LCC Crashes Tomorrow?

Sat Sep 10, 2005 12:08 am

Quoting RootsAir (Thread starter):
For example, look how ValueJet had to change its name to Air Tran...so that the name ValueJet would not give the airline prejudice.



Quoting SkyexRamper (Reply 24):
ValueJet didn't just change it's name, they were bought out by Air Tran which was an Orlando airline that flew 737-200s. Airtran isn't ValueJet.

Actually the opposite happened. Air Tran of Orlando was a very small airline, they couldn't afford to buy out Value Jet. Despite the crash and bad press, it was Value Jet who actually bought out the old Air Tran, but kept the name to lose the Value Jet name. Remember, they immediately changed the logo, I am not aware of any DC-9s flying in the old Air Tran scheme. Value Jet was actually the launch customer for the 717. After the Everglades crash and grounding, Value Jet returned to the air a much smaller airline, but then bought out Florida's Air Tran and took the name, repainted the DC-9s, thus everyone forgot about Value Jet except for airline people like us.

America West is doing something similar... however America West doesn't have the bad safety record. It is actually America West taking over US Airways, however they are keeping the US Airways name due to more name recognition overseas and in the East.
 
BCAL
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RE: And If An LCC Crashes Tomorrow?

Sat Sep 10, 2005 2:37 am

Quote:
Low-cost airlines agree on hardly anything. But one topic on which they are unanimous is safety. In particular, they refute any suggestion that buying a cheap flight is a risk. 'Some people may draw that conclusion' concedes Tim Jeans of MyTravelLite, but he insists 'there are no cost compromises on safety.' Indeed, avoiding crashes is even more crucial to no-frills operators than traditional airlines, Jeans contends. He turns to the economic argument – that low cost somehow implies low safety – on its head. No frills airlines, he says, should actually be safer than traditional airlines. 'Safety standards have to be as good as, or better than, the full-service competition because clearly the downside to an accident for a low-fares carrier would be considerably greater than for a full-service carrier. We're only too well aware of that'

Source: No Frills: The Truth Behind The Low-Cost Revolution In The Skies by Simon Calder

Quote:
If you think safety is expensive, think of the cost of an accident

Prominent sign at the Head Office of a major LCC

Both the above were said before the recent crashes in Greece, Italy, Venezuela, Peru and Indonesia, so I think that provided the LCC is from a country with a stringent and efficient Civil Aviation Authority they still are true. You draw your own conclusions from statistics.

I read a recent article (unfortunately I cannot remember the source) that suggested the legacy airlines, being forced to compete with the LCCs, are perhaps making economies on maintenance so effectively the standards of safety of the likes of the majors such as WN, U2 and FR are perhaps better. I doubt that this is true, but it does give some food for thought.
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flyboy36y
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RE: And If An LCC Crashes Tomorrow?

Sat Sep 10, 2005 12:20 pm

Quoting RootsAir (Thread starter):
For example, look how ValueJet had to change its name to Air Tran...so that the name ValueJet would not give the airline prejudice.

In the ValuJet crash, the airline was indeed at fault and they looked very bad. I dont think the other LCCs suffered much.

Quoting Cornish (Reply 3):
Michael O'Leary (Ryanair) has always said that a crash would be one of the few things that could run his airline into the ground.

Am I the only one who finds a bit o dark irony/humor in that?
 
arffguy
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RE: And If An LCC Crashes Tomorrow?

Sat Sep 10, 2005 2:49 pm

Why do people assume that scrimping on maintenance comes with the cheaper fare? LCC's save money by paying their workers less, trying to keep the workers motivated, hedging fuel and operating only one aircraft type, usually some that are newer. That last item alone gives them crew, operational and parts commonality. Take WN for instance. The operations agents know that if it is a 737-500 it has 118 seats. If it is a 737-300 or -700 it has 137 seats. Makes it easy to pull a plane swap if something breaks. Or say a flight crew member gets ill suddenly they can grab another and get the flight out. Unlike my pilot friend at AAL who says they seem to sometimes have too many aircraft types. Try to find another pilot at my home airport and he/she may be a MD-80 pilot and can't replace that 757 pilot. Also the maintenance itself is cheaper because the airline stocks less parts for multiple aircraft types. And all the aircraft tugs and other equipment fits all of the fleet. I actually got to go to the WN simulator and they call themselves an "anti-automation airline." They absolutely try to keep the non-flying pilot involved at all times. Having seen it I believe it helps the safety record that WN has.
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Airportguy1971
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RE: And If An LCC Crashes Tomorrow?

Sat Sep 10, 2005 3:41 pm

Quoting Udo (Reply 4):
Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 2):
Indeed, because low-cost carriers are perceived to be less safe, they must in fact be extra safe.

But they are not "extra safe". You can't tell me LCC do more for safety than legacy carriers.

http://www.frontierairlines.com/news...cle=/general/2005/pr_02042005.news

Quote:
Reflecting its commitment to safety and continuing education, Frontier Airlines is proud to announce that it is the only airline in America whose maintenance department has been awarded the Federal Aviation Administration's (FAA) Diamond Award for the sixth consecutive year.

If they are the only airline in America to do this, doesn't that mean that this LCC does more for safety than the American legacy carriers?
 
Udo
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RE: And If An LCC Crashes Tomorrow?

Sat Sep 10, 2005 5:04 pm

Quoting AirportGuy1971 (Reply 29):
If they are the only airline in America to do this, doesn't that mean that this LCC does more for safety than the American legacy carriers?

Great job by F9, but that does not necessarily mean the same for LCCs in general.


Regards
Udo
Me & You & a Plane Named Blue...
 
Runway31
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RE: And If An LCC Crashes Tomorrow?

Sat Sep 10, 2005 5:35 pm

Going the other direction, are legacy carriers safer, are their safety records better than low cost in either Europe or the USA. Given the numbers of legacy carriers especially in the USA in financial trouble, is there more pressure on them to scrimp on safety related items?.

What would happen if a legacy carrier crashes today?.

[Edited 2005-09-10 10:36:29]
 
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mariner
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RE: And If An LCC Crashes Tomorrow?

Sat Sep 10, 2005 5:59 pm

So here we have the odd situation of an LCC at peace with it's mechs:
Airtran Reaches Agreement With Mechs-Big Raise! (by Dl757md Sep 10 2005 in Civil Aviation)

While an Old Airline - Northwest - is at war with its mechs.

cheers

mariner
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LifelinerOne
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RE: And If An LCC Crashes Tomorrow?

Sat Sep 10, 2005 6:37 pm

If LCC cut out on safety, why does easyJet has it's maintenance being done by one of the best, SR Technics? If they wanted to do it cheaper, they better could do it themselves.

Cheers!  wave 
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Airportguy1971
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RE: And If An LCC Crashes Tomorrow?

Sun Sep 11, 2005 3:13 am

Quoting Udo (Reply 30):
Great job by F9, but that does not necessarily mean the same for LCCs in general.

But you painted ALL LCC's with the same broad brush.

This discussion is imposible to have really. Every situation and every airline, be it legacy or LCC is unique. Air Tran, is not Frontier, is not Ryan Air is not, Easy Jet. Much as Spirit is not United, is not flybe, is not British.
 
pilottim747
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RE: And If An LCC Crashes Tomorrow?

Sun Sep 11, 2005 4:01 am

Quoting RootsAir (Thread starter):
For example, look how ValueJet had to change its name to Air Tran...so that the name ValueJet would not give the airline prejudice.

Just last week in one of my classes we watched a video clip of the ABC News program Nightline from 1996. It was right after the ValuJet crash and they were analysing the crash and ValuJet itself. It was amazing to hear these aviation analysts calling low cost carriers "cut-throat airlines". A pretty harsh term.

While I think both LCCs and the public's perception of LCCs has changed greatly since 1996, it is an interesting question. My opinion is that in the US there probably wouldn't be much public outcry about LCCs if there was a LCC crash.

pilottim747
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Udo
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RE: And If An LCC Crashes Tomorrow?

Sun Sep 11, 2005 4:49 am

Quoting AirportGuy1971 (Reply 34):
But you painted ALL LCC's with the same broad brush.

No. I simply oppose the view that LCCs in general do more for safety than legacy carriers. That statement does not rule out individial differences between certain airlines.


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Udo
Me & You & a Plane Named Blue...
 
BR715-A1-30
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RE: And If An LCC Crashes Tomorrow?

Sun Sep 11, 2005 3:30 pm

Quoting RootsAir (Thread starter):
For example, look how ValueJet had to change its name to Air Tran...so that the name ValueJet would not give the airline prejudice.

Who is ValueJet or Value Jet... I have heard of Valujet.. which became AirTran after Valujet bought AirTran Airways. Valujet then became AirTran Airlines and then after a few months took on the AirTran Airways Name as one company instead of 2.
Puhdiddle
 
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RE: And If An LCC Crashes Tomorrow?

Sun Sep 11, 2005 6:48 pm

Quoting BR715-A1-30 (Reply 37):
Who is ValueJet or Value Jet... I have heard of Valujet.. which became AirTran after Valujet bought AirTran Airways. Valujet then became AirTran Airlines and then after a few months took on the AirTran Airways Name as one company instead of 2.

HA HA...you read my mind.....while we're at it, I'm still looking for this airline called American West
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mandala499
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RE: And If An LCC Crashes Tomorrow?

Sun Sep 11, 2005 9:03 pm

That's the public image. Though I do not suspect the safety of the likes of FR, U2 and other leading LCCs, I would like to know how many Hold Items List/Maintenance Open Items list/Deferred Maintenance Items policy...

Then compare that to the mainliners (which I suspect wouldn't be much difference), and then compare them to the "dodgy" types of LCC... Then U'll see the difference.

Under the current market situation of high fuel prices, it would be absolutely foolish to think that cutting corners on safety had NEVER CROSSED/TEMPTED the minds of maintenance managers... be it LCC or full fare...

They know that safety is a price/cost item. However, the risks of not taking that item is HUGE. Now, where do we cross the line between "maintenance streamlining/efficiency" and "cutting corners"?

How far can maintenance savings go before you start risking people's lives? That's what they're paid to do, make that decision, providing safety yet still make money.

Then you have operational procedures/patterns of the LCCs... Some fling their jets on high utility... Some even have 20 mins gate time (some totalling less than 30 between landing and take off)... If I remember correctly, Boeing recommends 40 mins of ground time between landing and take off (total, not gate) to allow for brake cooling.

Now, this once raised the issue of safety of LCCs... as mainliners (the prevailing source of the public's mindset of safety) are reducing the use of reversers and are using wheel brakes more....

So, with some airlines having 30 mins total ground time, they're not safe right?

There are 2 ways of doing it...
a. Full flaps, use of reversers (where the lost cost savings by using reversers are outweighed by the extra revenue the high utility brings)... increased checks on brakes...
b. "Let's pray we don't have a rejected take off"...

Now which LCCs use which? You decide  Smile I know one "major" LCC that uses "Let's pray we don't have a rejected take off" due to inadequate brake cooling...

BUT, does the public know which one's which? Or what are the safety risks other than just pointing at lower fares as a random indicator?

The reality is... the demand for cheaper and cheaper flights are there, and airlines have to adapt to the market demand, either by becoming an LCC, or keeping the high yielding pax, or a combination of both. Gross negligence by airlines in cost cutting and safety have not resulted in pax trending away from asking for lower fares... If one LCC dies today because of safety negligence, another one will spring up tomorrow.

For those of you wanting to blame the LCCs for reducing safety, perhaps passengers as a whole should blame itself for creating such a demand and trend in the first place. And oh, deregulation didn't create LCCs either...

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !

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