N593HA
Topic Author
Posts: 87
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 10:45 pm

Any Demand For A Europe To HNL Non-stop Service?

Sat Sep 10, 2005 11:16 pm

Hey,

I live in Germany and have flown a couple of times already from my hometown to Hawaii. Although I love flying it's always a very long journey. Although there many connections where you depart in Europe and arrive the same still at HNL, I prefer to split the trip and at least for this the most comfortable way to do it:
Day 1: CGN-KL1804-AMS-KL605-SFO
Day 2: SFO-HA11-HNL

There is no way, even not cheaper fares to get me flying via LHR and/or LAX. I just hate those two airports.

So now here my question:
Would there be enough demand for a daily Europe to HNL non-stop service?
Off course range is big issue on that route, which means from what I know only A345, 772LR and one the up-coming 787 versions would be suitable to fly non-stop across the 1,5 oceans!
To increase demand, any airline would need to code-share with a European airline to fill that flight. So may it would easier for a European airline to start those flights!

The only thing that I'm absolutely certain about is that the HNL spotters would love to see a European airline on regular basis at their hometown airport!

Now you may write down your thoughts about this topic

Regards from Germany
N593HA
Next trip: KL+NW to HNL
 
richardw
Posts: 3136
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RE: Any Demand For A Europe To HNL Non-stop Service?

Sat Sep 10, 2005 11:29 pm

Probably not enough high yield passengers to justify placing an aircraft on this route.
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 5434
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RE: Any Demand For A Europe To HNL Non-stop Service?

Sat Sep 10, 2005 11:31 pm

Quoting N593HA (Thread starter):
Would there be enough demand for a daily Europe to HNL non-stop service?

I doubt it since it would most likely mean same two-class arrangement SQ has for its SIN-EWR/LAX service. Besides, Hawaii is moreless holiday destination (am I right?), therefore I'm not sure you'd find enough people willing to pay full-fare business/first class for a daily service.
It also means no more than ONE destination in Europe, which means connecting anyway. Let's say AMS-LAX-HNL, FRA-SFO-HNL, LHR-LAX-HNL, VIE-SFO-HNL still seems like more bearable - at least psychologically - than connecting within Europe to a hub and then this 14, 15, 16? hours of non-stop ordeal accross half of the globe.
I've done this trip only once, HNL-LAX-FRA-PRG on UA/LH with an overnight stay in LAX and it was bad enough - especially the eastbound part.
 
Leskova
Posts: 5547
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 3:39 pm

RE: Any Demand For A Europe To HNL Non-stop Service?

Sun Sep 11, 2005 12:16 am

I agree that the eastbound flight is annoying, but the westbound is ok - the fastest connection is probably taking UA and flying FRA-SFO-HNL (and, yes, there are some quite good fares for that route).

As for nonstops - putting expensive longhaul equipment on relatively low yield routes isn't really a good choice for airlines so, no, I do not expect to see any European airlines operating nonstops to Hawai'i anytime soon... for that much, I also don't expect to see any US carrier operating Hawai'i to Europe nonstops either.

Last time I flew the route, I flew HAJ-LHR-IAD-DEN, stayed the night there, continued DEN-SFO-LAX-LIH (well, I like flying, and I got lots of miles for that routing), while on the way back, I took the LIH-SFO afternoon flight that got me into SFO around midnight, stayed at a hotel and continued on LH's nonstop to FRA, from where I connected on to HAJ. There's the option of taking a redeye (departing just before midnight) and arriving at SFO or LAX in the morning, but the flight's just too darn short for a night flight (at least for me), so I'd never take that option.

Regards,
Frank
Smile - it confuses people!
 
LordHowe
Posts: 671
Joined: Fri Jan 24, 2003 10:52 pm

RE: Any Demand For A Europe To HNL Non-stop Service?

Sun Sep 11, 2005 12:19 am

I have been thinking about this same question.

According to Great Circle Mapper the distance is not so impossible - check these out:

FRA-HNL 11990 km
LHR-HNL 11647 km
AMS-HNL 11677 km

For example SYD-LAX is 12051 km and has been flown nonstop for years.

The ultra long SIN-EWR is 15345 km.

But the shortest way also to HNL is from Northern Europe. We have good connections from allover Europe to HEL and HEL-HNL is "only" 10952 km. But we do not have the equipment - almost 11000 km is too much for MD11s, isn't it?

How are the winds on this kind of route?

Regards,
LordHowe
Lord Howe Island - The Last Paradise
 
soups
Posts: 3220
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2004 6:41 pm

RE: Any Demand For A Europe To HNL Non-stop Service?

Sun Sep 11, 2005 12:24 am

United Airlines is the only airline (i think) offer direct service from Europe to HNL (Via LAX)


Depart
London, London Heathrow Apt

Depart time
10:55am Saturday Sep 10, 2005

Terminal
Terminal 3

Arrive
Honolulu, Honolulu International Apt

Arrive time
9:37pm Saturday Sep 10, 2005

Terminal
Main Terminal

Total time
21 Hrs, 42 Mins

Aircraft Stops
Stop 1: Los Angeles

First Class
Lunch , Snack or Brunch

Business Class
Lunch , Snack or Brunch

Economy Class
Lunch , Snack or Brunch

Day of Operation
MoTuWeThFrSaSu *Valid Sep 9 2005 until Oct 29 2005

Aircraft
Boeing 777 Passenger
Next destinations, Suarabaya, beirut, paris, Accra
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: Any Demand For A Europe To HNL Non-stop Service?

Sun Sep 11, 2005 12:29 am

Quoting N593HA (Thread starter):
Off course range is big issue on that route, which means from what I know only A345, 772LR and one the up-coming 787 versions would be suitable to fly non-stop across the 1,5 oceans!

from LHR/CDG, the 777-200ER can easily do the trick...but the yields would be crappy, so thats why its easier to send a one world/star alliance parter via SFO/LAX
"Up the Irons!"
 
flyboyaz
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RE: Any Demand For A Europe To HNL Non-stop Service?

Sun Sep 11, 2005 12:33 am

Didn't BA fly to HNL at one point? I can't remember.
Catch a ride on a smile!
 
drerx7
Posts: 4218
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RE: Any Demand For A Europe To HNL Non-stop Service?

Sun Sep 11, 2005 12:34 am

Not too much demand. The Mediterranean resorts and the Caribbean are all closer, cheaper, and readily accessible.
Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
 
1MillionFlyer
Posts: 1937
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 8:55 am

RE: Any Demand For A Europe To HNL Non-stop Service?

Sun Sep 11, 2005 12:40 am

Quoting Drerx7 (Reply 8):
Not too much demand. The Mediterranean resorts and the Caribbean are all closer, cheaper, and readily accessible.

After being in TFS and HNL, TFS is very very nice and much cheaper.

There is really no reason to go to HNL from Europe unless you just want to say "I have been there".
Golf Foxtrot you are cleared for departure
 
Orion737
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RE: Any Demand For A Europe To HNL Non-stop Service?

Sun Sep 11, 2005 12:45 am

Actually the type of traveller who holidays in Hawaii is quite, quite different to the type of person holidaying in tenerife.

many of those who visit Hawaii can afford high fares and C class. Most of those flying tenerife want a cheapo week in the sun with lots of lager!
 
BCAL
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RE: Any Demand For A Europe To HNL Non-stop Service?

Sun Sep 11, 2005 12:57 am

Western Airlines operated a direct service at one time from LGW to HNL. A refueling stop en route (Anchorage I think) was necessary. Unfortunately they operated the route with the DC10-10 and consequently there were restrictions on the load. The service was stopped after just one season. Perhaps it they used the DC10-30, without the load restrictions, it might have been more successful.
MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
 
coa764
Posts: 309
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RE: Any Demand For A Europe To HNL Non-stop Service?

Sun Sep 11, 2005 1:05 am

Quoting N593HA (Thread starter):
Off course range is big issue on that route

The 777-200 can do it so range is not an issue but keep in mind that various other enroute variables could reduce the total payload. Now you just have to find enought people willing to fly)

FRA /HNL JRF B777-200 M84
---------------------------------------------------------------------
BURN -- 216700 -- 13.42
ALTN JRF -- 004500 -- 00.17
ETOPS ADD -- 012700 -- 00.49
RSV 05PCT -- 008900 -- 00.41
RSV 30MIN -- 006300 -- 00.30
HOLD -- 000000 -- 00.00
MIN FUEL -- 249100 -- 15.59
TAXI -- 000700 -- 00.14
EXTRA -- 000000 -- 00.00
GATE FUEL -- 249800 -- 16.13
PYLD -- 075100
TOW -- 648000
ZFW -- 398900
FOB -- 249800
LGW -- 431300
FOD -- 032400
FOA -- 027900

DIST 6593
FRA.WRB6E.WRB.UZ710.VES.UP992.ZOL.UZ10.FLO.UP621.EDURA..68N000E..
70N003W..75N009W..80N026W..82N040W..LT.ACAQ.TAYTA..BTI.J120.FAI.
J115.ENA..HOM..MARLO..55N150W..50N149W..45N150W..40N151W..35N153W..
30N155W..ZURIC..APACK.MAGGI3.HNL FRA/0280/LINVI/0300/FLS/0310/FLO/0300/68N000E/0320/82N040W/0340/TAPS
A/0350/FYU/0360/FAI/0370/ANC/0360/ENA/0370/40N151W/0380/30N155W/0390/ZURIC/0380/
EARLIEST/LATEST ARRIVAL TIME FOR THE ETOPS ALTERNATE AIRPORTS
ENGM SUITABLE 2310Z/0152Z
BIKF SUITABLE 2349Z/0515Z
CYFB SUITABLE 0307Z/0558Z
CYZF SUITABLE 0345Z/0606Z
PAFA SUITABLE 0358Z/0801Z
PACD SUITABLE 0600Z/1143Z
PHNL SUITABLE 0932Z/1135Z
Please oh please Mr Moderator Nazi, dont delete my thread.
 
CHI787ORD
Posts: 674
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RE: Any Demand For A Europe To HNL Non-stop Service?

Sun Sep 11, 2005 1:15 am

I flew FRA-ORD-HNL on UA/LH a few years ago. It was an enjoyable trip, and I recommend taking it.
 
LordHowe
Posts: 671
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RE: Any Demand For A Europe To HNL Non-stop Service?

Sun Sep 11, 2005 1:16 am

Quoting Coa764 (Reply 12):
Quoting N593HA (Thread starter):
FRA /HNL JRF B777-200 M84
---------------------------------------------------------------------
BURN -- 216700 -- 13.42
ALTN JRF -- 004500 -- 00.17
ETOPS ADD -- 012700 -- 00.49
RSV 05PCT -- 008900 -- 00.41
RSV 30MIN -- 006300 -- 00.30
HOLD -- 000000 -- 00.00
MIN FUEL -- 249100 -- 15.59
TAXI -- 000700 -- 00.14
EXTRA -- 000000 -- 00.00
GATE FUEL -- 249800 -- 16.13
PYLD -- 075100
TOW -- 648000
ZFW -- 398900
FOB -- 249800
LGW -- 431300
FOD -- 032400
FOA -- 027900

DIST 6593
FRA.WRB6E.WRB.UZ710.VES.UP992.ZOL.UZ10.FLO.UP621.EDURA..68N000E..
70N003W..75N009W..80N026W..82N040W..LT.ACAQ.TAYTA..BTI.J120.FAI.
J115.ENA..HOM..MARLO..55N150W..50N149W..45N150W..40N151W..35N153W..
30N155W..ZURIC..APACK.MAGGI3.HNL FRA/0280/LINVI/0300/FLS/0310/FLO/0300/68N000E/0320/82N040W/0340/TAPS
A/0350/FYU/0360/FAI/0370/ANC/0360/ENA/0370/40N151W/0380/30N155W/0390/ZURIC/0380/
EARLIEST/LATEST ARRIVAL TIME FOR THE ETOPS ALTERNATE AIRPORTS
ENGM SUITABLE 2310Z/0152Z
BIKF SUITABLE 2349Z/0515Z
CYFB SUITABLE 0307Z/0558Z
CYZF SUITABLE 0345Z/0606Z
PAFA SUITABLE 0358Z/0801Z
PACD SUITABLE 0600Z/1143Z
PHNL SUITABLE 0932Z/1135Z

Sorry, but what does this all mean - translation, please!

Regards,
LordHowe
Lord Howe Island - The Last Paradise
 
planespotting
Posts: 3026
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RE: Any Demand For A Europe To HNL Non-stop Service?

Sun Sep 11, 2005 1:18 am

yeah, Hawaii is predominantly an American Tourism destination, as Europe has many places that are closer and equally tropical.
Do you like movies about gladiators?
 
1MillionFlyer
Posts: 1937
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 8:55 am

RE: Any Demand For A Europe To HNL Non-stop Service?

Sun Sep 11, 2005 1:25 am

Quoting Orion737 (Reply 10):
many of those who visit Hawaii can afford high fares and C class. Most of those flying tenerife want a cheapo week in the sun with lots of lager!

Trust me , you can have a high-end Holiday in TFS if you want.
Golf Foxtrot you are cleared for departure
 
Orion737
Posts: 3044
Joined: Sat Jan 08, 2005 10:14 pm

RE: Any Demand For A Europe To HNL Non-stop Service?

Sun Sep 11, 2005 1:31 am

I dont doubt it, there are several very good 5 star hotels, particularly in the Northern resort of Puerto De La Cruz and the island is served by scheduled flights. However, Tenerife is largely a 'cheap and cheerful' year round destination for the British.

TFS is particular is served by hundreds of charter flights and is home to British pubs, bars, grotty apartment blocks and I think it fair to say that TFS does attract a fair amount of lower end holidaymakers. Im talking Aspro and Thomson square deal holidays in 2 star apartment blocks on charter flights leaving in the middle of the night.
 
Leskova
Posts: 5547
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 3:39 pm

RE: Any Demand For A Europe To HNL Non-stop Service?

Sun Sep 11, 2005 1:34 am

Quoting 1MillionFlyer (Reply 16):
Trust me , you can have a high-end Holiday in TFS if you want.

TFS isn't really in competition with Hawai'i - but Mauritius, the Maledives and the Comores are...

Regards,
Frank
Smile - it confuses people!
 
greenjet
Posts: 869
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2001 9:59 pm

RE: Any Demand For A Europe To HNL Non-stop Service?

Sun Sep 11, 2005 1:38 am

MyTravel are looking at operating to HNL via YYC.

Quoting Orion737 (Reply 10):
many of those who visit Hawaii can afford high fares and C class.

But not enough for a direct flight from Europe.
 
1MillionFlyer
Posts: 1937
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 8:55 am

RE: Any Demand For A Europe To HNL Non-stop Service?

Sun Sep 11, 2005 1:45 am

Quoting Orion737 (Reply 17):
Tenerife is largely a 'cheap and cheerful' year round destination for the British.

I was just in HNL and I can tell you there were many "cheap and cheerful" people there for Holiday.

Quoting Leskova (Reply 18):
TFS isn't really in competition with Hawai'i - but Mauritius, the Maledives and the Comores are...

Thank you, I lived in London and Amsterdam and I know those places well, they are very far flights as well, TFS is the closest "decent" "tropical" location from Western Europe (Although Palma , Funchal, and Ibiza are closer, the weather isn't as tropical).

Greece, Cyprus and Turkey are nice places to go as well.
Golf Foxtrot you are cleared for departure
 
speedmarque
Posts: 310
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2005 8:37 pm

RE: Any Demand For A Europe To HNL Non-stop Service?

Sun Sep 11, 2005 1:51 am

Quoting Flyboyaz (Reply 7):
Didn't BA fly to HNL at one point? I can't remember.

Just flew with a Purser who was reminiscing about the "good old days" when he flew LHR-JFK-LAX-HNL-PPT-NAD-SYD with BA!!!!!!

WHAT A TRIP!!!!
 
moose1226
Posts: 247
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RE: Any Demand For A Europe To HNL Non-stop Service?

Sun Sep 11, 2005 1:51 am

Coa764:

Where do you get that info from?

Thanks
 
dutchjet
Posts: 7714
Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2000 6:13 am

RE: Any Demand For A Europe To HNL Non-stop Service?

Sun Sep 11, 2005 2:06 am

Its funny how often this issue comes up here at a.net - a Europe to Hawaii nonstop flight. While the flight would look good on a route map, there is not enough demand for such a flight and the yeilds are all wrong. As pointed out above, Hawaii is a long way for a European to go for a beach holiday - and aside from European beach destinations, places such as Thailand, Mauritius and the Maldives are closer to Europe than Hawaii; maybe at some point, a charter carrier out of Germany or the UK may try a once per week service to Honolulu, but its unlikely that scheduled service will ever be introduced in the forseeable future.

Consider that East Coast US to Hawaii service is also very limited - CO flies nonstop between EWR and HNL (and the power of CO's EWR hub helps that flight)......there is no nonstop connection between cities like BOS, WAS, PHL and MIA and Hawaii for the same reasons - Hawaii is far and thus expensive for a beach holiday for residents of those cities and there are many closer and less expensive alternatives in the Caribbean and Mexico.

As mentioned, long ago, Western tried a LGW-ANC-HNL service with a DC10-10, the flight operated a couple of times per week back in the 1970s and while the loads were good between HNL and ANC, the airplane was generally very empty going on to London.
 
Cahiwa
Posts: 50
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RE: Any Demand For A Europe To HNL Non-stop Service?

Sun Sep 11, 2005 3:24 am

 cool  I was always amazed when I lived on Maui how many Germans wind surfed on Maui's east side. Amazed because I assumed there are far closer destinations for Europeans to windsurf that are just as good. Generally, when asked about this, they claim nothing comes close to the conditions on the Valley Isle. Ciao, K
 
airbazar
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RE: Any Demand For A Europe To HNL Non-stop Service?

Sun Sep 11, 2005 4:09 am

Quoting Planespotting (Reply 15):
yeah, Hawaii is predominantly an American Tourism destination

If I'm not mistaken, Hawaii is predominantely a Japanese tourist destination.

Quoting 1MillionFlyer (Reply 20):
I was just in HNL and I can tell you there were many "cheap and cheerful" people there for Holiday.

I'll second that. My wife and I had a wonderful 10 day vacation in Maui, from Boston, for $999pp, including air fare, rental car and a 3-star hotel room.That's comparable if not cheaper to the Caribbean and anywhere in Europe. The biggest problem about Hawaii is that it is too darn far from anywhere except the Pacific rim. On the plus side, you can find prices for every taste. However you have to do the shopping yourself because most travel agencies only offer the standard well known and more expensive hotels.
 
b6sea
Posts: 348
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2005 5:44 pm

RE: Any Demand For A Europe To HNL Non-stop Service?

Sun Sep 11, 2005 4:42 am

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 25):
If I'm not mistaken, Hawaii is predominantely a Japanese tourist destination

More or less American and Japanese, but I always hear of many europeans going to Hawaii on vacation, obviously not as many when compared to the Japanese, Canadians, or Americans but if yields are bad then that might explain it, otherwise I would think you may see a LHR or FRA route once someone gets the 787.
 
vlada
Posts: 97
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RE: Any Demand For A Europe To HNL Non-stop Service?

Sun Sep 11, 2005 5:04 am

Quoting Flyboyaz (Reply 7):
Didn't BA fly to HNL at one point? I can't remember

I don't know about British Airways, but I'm pretty sure Sabena had a direct BRU-HNL service, way back in seventies, operated by B747 classics. Back then, it even was in the Guinness Book of Records as a longest non-stop service in the world.

Regards,
Vlada
 
searpqx
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RE: Any Demand For A Europe To HNL Non-stop Service?

Sun Sep 11, 2005 5:17 am

We actually get a fair amount of Europeans on the islands, but as has been mentioned at most enough for maybe one flight from the whole continent. So you'd have to convince everyone to funnel through one city in Europe, then repeat the process on this end, they would have to disperse to their destination island from Honolulu, pretty much guaranteeing a 2 connection trip, no real savings over going Europe-US-Hawaii, and landing directly on your destination island.
"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
 
carduelis
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RE: Any Demand For A Europe To HNL Non-stop Service?

Sun Sep 11, 2005 5:38 am

Flyboyaz and Speedmarque:-

Yes, I remember it well, when I was BOAC Cabin Crew.

BOAC had Around the World Services on 707s in the early-mid 60s.

There were three a week in each direction. Westwards LHR JFK SFO HNL TYO HKG, then varied, BKK DEL KHI THR BEY ROM ZRH LHR. Eastwards in the opposite routing.

That's all I flew for three years. The trips were all 21 days long, and occasionally took in a side-trip to SYD. Back at LHR, we'd have 7-10 days off and then go off around the world again. Great!

As the flights were scheduled on the eastabout routing out of HKG on FRI SAT SUN, it gave us five days off in either TYO HNL or SFO, depending on day of departure. Yes, those were the days!

The other routing mentioned by Speedmarque was for a VC10 operation in the later 60s.


Speedbird and Speedmarque!
Per Ardua ad Astra! ........ Honi Soit Qui Mal y Pense!
 
ChiGB1973
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RE: Any Demand For A Europe To HNL Non-stop Service?

Sun Sep 11, 2005 6:00 am

I did HNL-IND then IND-SNN. I spent the night in Indy and continued the next day. It was an ATA military charter. Of course, working those flights is easy cause you are up and around.

L-1011-500

M
 
dutchjet
Posts: 7714
Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2000 6:13 am

RE: Any Demand For A Europe To HNL Non-stop Service?

Sun Sep 11, 2005 6:11 am

Quoting Vlada (Reply 27):

I don't know about British Airways, but I'm pretty sure Sabena had a direct BRU-HNL service, way back in seventies, operated by B747 classics. Back then, it even was in the Guinness Book of Records as a longest non-stop service in the world.

Regards,
Vlada

This is news to me - Sabena served Honolulu? When?

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 28):
We actually get a fair amount of Europeans on the islands, but as has been mentioned at most enough for maybe one flight from the whole continent. So you'd have to convince everyone to funnel through one city in Europe, then repeat the process on this end, they would have to disperse to their destination island from Honolulu, pretty much guaranteeing a 2 connection trip, no real savings over going Europe-US-Hawaii, and landing directly on your destination island.

Some Europeans to include Hawaii as part of larger trip to the US (the California- Hawaii - Las Vegas combo is popular) or as a stopover on a swing through the South Pacific/Australia, but the number of European travellers headed simply to Hawaii for 2 week vacation are very small - thus, demand for nonstop service is limited.
 
N1120A
Posts: 26467
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Any Demand For A Europe To HNL Non-stop Service?

Sun Sep 11, 2005 6:32 am

Quoting N593HA (Thread starter):
Off course range is big issue on that route, which means from what I know only A345, 772LR and one the up-coming 787 versions would be suitable to fly non-stop across the 1,5 oceans!

A 744 or 772ER could do the route

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 2):
Hawaii is moreless holiday destination (am I right?),

You are

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 2):
therefore I'm not sure you'd find enough people willing to pay full-fare business/first class for a daily service.

Take a look at LAS and the success it has been for BD and VS. LAS is a very low yield, high load destination in the US but is a very high yield destination from Europe. Hawai'i would likely be similar.

Quoting Leskova (Reply 3):
the fastest connection is probably taking UA and flying FRA-SFO-HNL (and, yes, there are some quite good fares for that route).

LH FRA-LAX and UA LAX-HNL would be just as fast

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 25):
Quoting Planespotting (Reply 15):
yeah, Hawaii is predominantly an American Tourism destination

If I'm not mistaken, Hawaii is predominantely a Japanese tourist destination.

Both

Quoting Vlada (Reply 27):
Sabena had a direct BRU-HNL service, way back in seventies, operated by B747 classics. Back then, it even was in the Guinness Book of Records as a longest non-stop service in the world.

That flight would have had to take serious weight restrictions, considering SN never flew the 747SP
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
DarthRandall
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RE: Any Demand For A Europe To HNL Non-stop Service?

Sun Sep 11, 2005 7:17 am

Quoting BCAL (Reply 11):
Western Airlines operated a direct service at one time from LGW to HNL. A refueling stop en route (Anchorage I think) was necessary. Unfortunately they operated the route with the DC10-10 and consequently there were restrictions on the load. The service was stopped after just one season. Perhaps it they used the DC10-30, without the load restrictions, it might have been more successful.

I shudder to think of spending all that time on a DC-10! That does make me think, though, that it might be a good idea to make a stop in Anchorage on the way to Honolulu. During the summer, Anchorage is itself a tourist destination for those who love all things outdoors, and Honolulu is a popular vacation spot for Alaskans. Also, from a traveler's point of view, Anchorage's quaint little international airport would be a much more comfortable place to change than the nightmare that is LAX.

Quoting 1MillionFlyer (Reply 20):
I was just in HNL and I can tell you there were many "cheap and cheerful" people there for Holiday.

Indeed, Hawaii does offer experiences on both ends of the budgetary spectrum. If the trip could be made affordable to Europeans (perhaps the new generation aircraft will help in that regard), I've no doubt that they would come.
Ninjas can kill anyone they want! Ninjas cut off heads all the time and don't even think twice about it.
 
ha763
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RE: Any Demand For A Europe To HNL Non-stop Service?

Sun Sep 11, 2005 11:07 am

The last European airline to fly to Hawaii, HNL, was Lufthansa and it was a non-stop flight. I believe that this was the first time there was a non-stop flight between Hawaii and Europe. For a period of about 2 years in the early 1990s, Lufthansa flew non-stop charters 3 or 4 days a week using A340-200s. Also, Lufthansa Cargo stopped in HNL as part of its round-the-world cargo flight and cargo codeshare with Air New Zealand, but stopped after the codeshare was dropped.

In 2004, 114,948 visitors arrived by air from the Europe MMA. Of those visitors, the majority (58%) came from the UK followed by Germany (24%). More visitors came from the UK (66,921) and Germany (28,061) than Korea (38,394) and Taiwan (16,161), but Korean Airlines has daily non-stops ICN-HNL and Taiwan has non-stop service from China Airlines and EVA Air. However, Korea and Taiwan are closer, have cultural ties due to immigration, plus they both transit a good amount of cargo through HNL. Also, China Airlines has 5th freedom rights between NRT and HNL allowing them to carry pax from Hawaii's #1 foreign MMA. For European airlines, there isn't the business case for a non-stop flight for the greater distance from Europe.

The State of Hawaii has a lot of great information publicly available about the visitors that come to Hawaii that is gathered from the State Agriculture forms every air pax is required to fill out. The Departemt of Business, Economic Development and Tourism puts out monthly visitor counts and a comprehensive annual tourism report. Not only that, the University of Hawaii has a good School of Travel Industry Management (TIM) that also does a lot of research in not only Hawaii tourism, but all over the world. I know for a fact that many Asian and Pacific nations have sent students to study TIM at UH since I attended class with many of them (I graduated with a BS in TIM with an emphasis on Transportation).
 
MarshalN
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RE: Any Demand For A Europe To HNL Non-stop Service?

Sun Sep 11, 2005 11:25 am

How does HNL compare to Tahiti? IIRC there are direct flights from Europe to Tahiti, and I'd think Hawaii is a bigger tourist destination even for Europe, or is that not the case (on either count)? I understand there's the colonial connection, but Tahiti isn't exactly a big place...
 
3201
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RE: Any Demand For A Europe To HNL Non-stop Servic

Sun Sep 11, 2005 12:53 pm

Quoting Coa764 (Reply 12):

DIST 6593
FRA.WRB6E.WRB.UZ710.VES.UP992.ZOL.UZ10.FLO.UP621.EDURA..68N000E..
70N003W..75N009W..80N026W..82N040W..LT.ACAQ.TAYTA..BTI.J120.FAI.
J115.ENA..HOM..MARLO..55N150W..50N149W..45N150W..40N151W..35N153W..
30N155W..ZURIC..APACK.MAGGI3.HNL FRA/0280/LINVI/0300/FLS/0310/FLO/0300/68N000E/0320/82N040W/0340/TAPS
A/0350/FYU/0360/FAI/0370/ANC/0360/ENA/0370/40N151W/0380/30N155W/0390/ZURIC/0380/
EARLIEST/LATEST ARRIVAL TIME FOR THE ETOPS ALTERNATE AIRPORTS
ENGM SUITABLE 2310Z/0152Z
BIKF SUITABLE 2349Z/0515Z
CYFB SUITABLE 0307Z/0558Z
CYZF SUITABLE 0345Z/0606Z
PAFA SUITABLE 0358Z/0801Z
PACD SUITABLE 0600Z/1143Z
PHNL SUITABLE 0932Z/1135Z



What, if any, winds did you use for this? From what I've seen, the wind-optimal route will normally fly on the other side of the pole, at say 80 or so N flying east-bound north of Russia, clipping Siberia -- BUT, and this is a huge but, I have no idea what the availability of ETOPS alternates is up there, and whether the ETOPS ADD would wind up being a lot higher.

That said, I agree with everyone else -- technically quite feasible, and could probably get good loads (cuts about 10 hours off compared to most published connecting itineraries HNL->Europe!), but not necessarily good yields. Might depend how much fruit & fish they can bring back as well.

BTW the best place to connect geographically would have to be YVR, but the connections seem to be less well-timed than SFO.

Quoting LordHowe (Reply 14):

Sorry, but what does this all mean - translation, please!

Basically it's all the required fuels, the time of flight, and the available payload, plus the route of flight and the list of ETOPS alternates used.

[Edited 2005-09-11 06:18:15]
7 hours aint long-haul
 
ha763
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RE: Any Demand For A Europe To HNL Non-stop Service?

Sun Sep 11, 2005 2:17 pm

Quoting MarshalN (Reply 35):
How does HNL compare to Tahiti?

The thing with Tahiti is that the airlines that fly the route, Air France and Air Tahiti Nui, have traffic rights not only to carry pax between PPT and the US, but also between the US and CDG. That apparently is where the money is made, carrying tourists from the US to Tahiti and France.
 
viscount630
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RE: Any Demand For A Europe To HNL Non-stop Service?

Sun Sep 11, 2005 7:25 pm

Quoting N593HA (Thread starter):
Would there be enough demand for a daily Europe to HNL non-stop service?

Nope! Next question please.  Yeah sure There are plenty of nicer, more interesting, sunnier destinations within easier reach of europe for leisure traffic - and the potential for non-leisure traffic must be miniscule.

Quoting N593HA (Thread starter):
The only thing that I'm absolutely certain about is that the HNL spotters would love to see a European airline on regular basis at their hometown airport!

Well of course that WOULD be the main consideration by the world's cash-strapped airlines to start an expensive speculative long-haul operation.........  duck 
RIP Dan-Air. Where the Secret was SERVICE.
 
dutchjet
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RE: Any Demand For A Europe To HNL Non-stop Service?

Sun Sep 11, 2005 7:58 pm

Quoting MarshalN (Reply 35):
How does HNL compare to Tahiti? IIRC there are direct flights from Europe to Tahiti, and I'd think Hawaii is a bigger tourist destination even for Europe, or is that not the case (on either count)? I understand there's the colonial connection, but Tahiti isn't exactly a big place...

The only direct flights are from PPT to Paris, due to historical connections and the fact Tahiti änd her islands remains "part of Greater France" - these flights operate via LAX and both AF and Air Tahiti Nui can carry pax betweem PPT and LAX and LAX and CDG on these PPT-CDG flights which makes the whole operation interesting. Air New Zealand offers connecting flights, again via LAX, to LHR and a code-share with LH to FRA. Tahiti is marvelous, but its a niche destination (and expensive) and the tourist numbers from Europe are rather small.
 
airtrainer
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RE: Any Demand For A Europe To HNL Non-stop Service?

Sun Sep 11, 2005 8:04 pm

I don't think there would be enough demand, if you go to a travel agency you will see a ton of offers for southern Europe, North Africa or the Carribean, but nothing for Hawaii Sad
Life is short : eat dessert first !
 
B777ER
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RE: Any Demand For A Europe To HNL Non-stop Service?

Sun Sep 11, 2005 10:11 pm

A good routing from Europe to HNL I would think would be via Delta. Pick a city in Europe DL serves and go to ATL and then they have 2 non-stops to HNL with B764's every day. They are also starting a non-stop to one of the other islands from ATL as well using a 763.
 
3201
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RE: Any Demand For A Europe To HNL Non-stop Servic

Sun Sep 11, 2005 11:38 pm

Quoting B777ER (Reply 41):
A good routing from Europe to HNL I would think would be via Delta. Pick a city in Europe DL serves and go to ATL and then they have 2 non-stops to HNL with B764's every day.

The problem is ATL is so far off the best path, the flight time is a lot higher. For example, FRA-HNL:








AirlineViaDepartArriveFlight timeCnx timeTotal time
DeltaATL9:45am6:51pm 19:161:5021:06
UnitedSFO1:45pm8:32pm 16:472:0018:22
LH/ACYVR1:25pm10:25pm 15:405:2021:00


Through Vancouver you can get there as fast as through ATL but with 3 more hours on the ground -- YVR is a whole hour less flight time than SFO, the connection just isn't timed well.

Quoting B777ER (Reply 41):
They are also starting a non-stop to one of the other islands from ATL as well using a 763.

And that's a huge advantage of SFO and LAX, which have non-stops to 3 or 4 other airports in Hawaii. Since a lot of people aren't going to HNL, this is the same argument as for origin cities in Europe that have a nonstop to a US hub but wouldn't rate one to Hawaii -- e.g. compare MUC-SFO-LIH with MUC-FRA-HNL-LIH.
7 hours aint long-haul
 
coa764
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RE: Any Demand For A Europe To HNL Non-stop Service?

Tue Sep 13, 2005 9:20 pm

Quoting 3201 (Reply 36):
What, if any, winds did you use for this? From what I've seen, the wind-optimal route will normally fly on the other side of the pole, at say 80 or so N flying east-bound north of Russia, clipping Siberia -- BUT, and this is a huge but, I have no idea what the availability of ETOPS alternates is up there, and whether the ETOPS ADD would wind up being a lot higher.

The winds were from the Bracknell grid. flying east out of FRA actually produced a longer flight time and less payload vs. the westbound routing. The other issue with flying east is the overly charges and permits required by all the countries between FRA and HNL as well as the issue of valid ETOPS alternates (No overfly permit means you fly around that country as well as NOT being able to use any of the airports as you ETOPS alternate). When flying, for example, over China and Russia you are restricted to airways (no directs) and can be impacted by FIR closures.

The eastbound routing I submitted as the example could too be more restrictive in that it was not validated via EuroControl and it disregarded the track structure (basically an unrestricted random routing for best time and payload). Either way a payload of 700 isn't bad but for a 777 could be better.
Please oh please Mr Moderator Nazi, dont delete my thread.
 
tsnamm
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RE: Any Demand For A Europe To HNL Non-stop Service?

Tue Sep 13, 2005 10:10 pm

CO had a 1 stop same plane from HNL to LGW back in the 80's
flt 34/35 ran HNL/DEN/LGW and back...now you can go via EWR or IAH...connect from Europe and go to HNL...still pretty convenient, and I'm sure DL via ATL and AA/UA via ORD...so its still pretty good cnx...
 
airbazar
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RE: Any Demand For A Europe To HNL Non-stop Service?

Tue Sep 13, 2005 10:57 pm

Quoting Viscount630 (Reply 38):
Nope! Next question please. There are plenty of nicer, more interesting, sunnier destinations within easier reach of europe for leisure traffic - and the potential for non-leisure traffic must be miniscule.

I'm not sure which Hawaii have you visited but I've been to a lot of places around the World and few are as nice as Hawaii. Ok, Ohau is not the nicest place in the World but there's more to Hawaii than Oahu. But I guess different people have different opinions. Everything else, I agree with you. By the way, I am from Europe, despite my current residency  Smile

Quoting Ha763 (Reply 34):
In 2004, 114,948 visitors arrived by air from the Europe MMA.

OK, so our fellow Europeans do visit Hawaii. When you factor in the distance and lack of non-stop flights and charter operations from Europe, 115K is a mighty large number. That's roughly 1 full 747 per day.
I think the key is charter service. A regular carrier would not be able to sustain service to Hawaii because of the absence of high yield traffic but I think a charter operation could do well but it requires significant advertising investment because Hawaii is way outside of the radar of most charter tourists in Europe. In other words, its a lot easier to seel some place closer.
 
Xkorpyoh
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RE: Any Demand For A Europe To HNL Non-stop Service?

Tue Sep 13, 2005 11:48 pm

What about Air New Zealand doing AKL-HNL-LHR with their future 777LR?
.. that would leave them more seats to sell on their 777 AKL-LAX.

about hawaii: I have been to many places in the world, including the Canaries, Caribbean Islands, other pacific islands, and it is fair to say that Hawaii is unique and different to the others. I don't consider it as just a beach destination because the native culture is so interesting (if you get into it) and the forests and mountains are breathtaking. With that, i am try to say that to think you can substitute hawaii with Tenerife or any other island just because of the beach is a mistake. Hawaii is more than a beach and i am sure that it has a market in europe for at least a nonstop to London.