beefer
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Deal Expected Between NWA And Mechanics Soon

Sun Sep 11, 2005 4:50 am

Striking Northwest Airlines mechanics said today they expect to make a deal with the airline, although striking workers probably won't like it. It's the first time the Aircraft Mechanics Fraternal Association has said it expects a deal, and that its members would probably get to vote on it.

http://www.startribune.com/stories/535/5607499.html

"We all know that at some point an agreement must be reached. We also know that any tentative agreement is going to be extreme by any measure,'' said Steve MacFarlane, the union's Assistant National Director, in a hot line message Saturday.

..................

It doesn't sound like any new proposals have been made since Northwest's recent offer of only keeping 1,080 mechanics' jobs and eliminating the aircraft cleaner and custodian positions represented by the union. That represents about 3,350 layoffs, up from the 2,000 Northwest sought before the strike.

Is it possible that the only thing at this point that NWA and the Union are trying to work out is a decent severance package for the Mechanics who will be laid off due to this deal?
 
FRA2DTW
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RE: Deal Expected Between NWA And Mechanics Soon

Sun Sep 11, 2005 5:17 am

My gut feeling is that they will agree to outsourcing all the cleaner and custodian jobs, and protect as many mechanics and their income as they can. Otherwise, AMFA is dead as a mechanics union. On the other hand, I think they still hold a few cards. If passengers are booking away from NW out of safety concerns, the bottom line is beginning to hurt. Also, housing the replacement workers in hotels and transporting them to/from work is not cheap, plus there will be increasing turnover by the replacements as they find other, more secure jobs with other companies. The NW employment offer is nothing to get excited about - they can do equally well elsewhere without being labelled "scabs".
 
FRA2DTW
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RE: Deal Expected Between NWA And Mechanics Soon

Sun Sep 11, 2005 5:19 am

Make no mistake about it - the future of both the airline and AMFA is at stake here. Both could lose BIG!
 
AirRyan
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RE: Deal Expected Between NWA And Mechanics Soon

Sun Sep 11, 2005 5:33 am

Quoting FRA2DTW (Reply 1):
If passengers are booking away from NW out of safety concerns, the bottom line is beginning to hurt.

But that is just not been the case nor does it appear that if the replacement workers become permanent would manifest into such a case, either.

Quoting FRA2DTW (Reply 1):
Also, housing the replacement workers in hotels and transporting them to/from work is not cheap, plus there will be increasing turnover by the replacements as they find other, more secure jobs with other companies.

You are forgetting that if AMFA doesn't accept this deal by Tuesday than NW begins to offer permanent positions to the replacement workers which would then mean no more hotels.

Quoting FRA2DTW (Reply 2):
Make no mistake about it - the future of both the airline and AMFA is at stake here. Both could lose BIG!

I would buy that AMFA's future is at stake here but even if they accept the offer it will be a serious blow to their rep because they could have had a significantly better agreement just weeks earlier.

As for NW here I think they can go on with their new business model as planned with either group of workers so their future isn't nescessarily dependant upon AMFA in this situation. No doubt it would probably be better for both parties if AMFA agreed to come back even at the less valuable offer of just the other day, but I think NW can get by either way.
 
searpqx
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RE: Deal Expected Between NWA And Mechanics Soon

Sun Sep 11, 2005 5:34 am

Quoting FRA2DTW (Reply 2):
the future of both the airline and AMFA is at stake here. Both could lose BIG!

Unfortunately AMFA has already lost big. Not only has their strike had no noticeable long term effect on the airline, but now they've pretty much admitted that they'll end up settling, and for a contract that is half again as bad as the one they struck over. I'm no fan of how NWA management has gone about breaking this union, but in this case NWA is the clear winner.

Does not bode well for the rest of the unions.
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Zone1
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RE: Deal Expected Between NWA And Mechanics Soon

Sun Sep 11, 2005 5:56 am

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 4):
Unfortunately AMFA has already lost big.

If I was a NWA mechanic, I would be pretty angry at the union right now. I pay all those union dues for what? So I can make no money during a strike and get my pay cut (which would happen if the union never existed in the first place.)
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KarlB737
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RE: Deal Expected Between NWA And Mechanics Soon

Sun Sep 11, 2005 6:41 am

Quoting FRA2DTW (Reply 1):
My gut feeling is that they will agree to outsourcing all the cleaner and custodian jobs, and protect as many mechanics and their income as they can.

I concur with FRA2DTW's statement above. I am a union member in another field. We have experienced many givebacks in recent years. Our LEVERAGE is not what is used to be and our representatives we know are doing the best they can given the "risks" companies in all fields are WILLING TO TAKE to cut.

Karl
 
StevenUhl777
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RE: Deal Expected Between NWA And Mechanics Soon

Sun Sep 11, 2005 6:46 am

Quoting Zone1 (Reply 5):
If I was a NWA mechanic, I would be pretty angry at the union right now. I pay all those union dues for what? So I can make no money during a strike and get my pay cut (which would happen if the union never existed in the first place.)

That, and at the rest of the membership for being "taken in" by a bunch of windbags at AMFA back in '98. AMFA has no support amongst other unions, not an AFL-CIO member, and for that reason, I think the other unions are quietly very happy to see AMFA taking it in the shorts on this one.

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 4):
Does not bode well for the rest of the unions.

Possibly, but if the IAM were to strike, it's very likely that the pilots and F/A's would support them, whereas they didn't with AMFA. NWA mgmt. knows this, and will probably (hopefully) negotiate in better faith with them.

That said, if NW does file Ch. 11 as expected, it will be a very rough ride for everyone involved.
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bucky707
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RE: Deal Expected Between NWA And Mechanics Soon

Sun Sep 11, 2005 6:50 am

Quoting FRA2DTW (Reply 1):
My gut feeling is that they will agree to outsourcing all the cleaner and custodian jobs, and protect as many mechanics and their income as they can. Otherwise, AMFA is dead as a mechanics union

I think you are totally correct.
 
vegas005
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RE: Deal Expected Between NWA And Mechanics Soon

Sun Sep 11, 2005 6:59 am

These union retards should have read the Eastern Airlines story. They destroyed Eastern (yes..I know bad management too) and partied in the street shouting "we won, we won" when Eastern went bankrupt. These union idiots lost their high paying Eastern jobs and soon took jobs with AA for 2/3 to 1/2 the pay and benefits they made at Eastern. 14 years later and we have the same story...
 
Jano
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RE: Deal Expected Between NWA And Mechanics Soon

Sun Sep 11, 2005 7:01 am

Quoting FRA2DTW (Reply 1):
If passengers are booking away from NW out of safety concerns, the bottom line is beginning to hurt.

Let's look here
http://www.nwa.com/corpinfo/newsc/2005/pr090720051622.html

Between August 2004 and 2005, RPM up by 0.7%; ASM down by 1%; LF up by 1.5%. That does not suggest that people are boking away, pleople are still willing to fly NWA.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Deal Expected Between NWA And Mechanics Soon

Sun Sep 11, 2005 7:04 am

Quoting StevenUhl777 (Reply 7):
That, and at the rest of the membership for being "taken in" by a bunch of windbags at AMFA back in '98. AMFA has no support amongst other unions, not an AFL-CIO member, and for that reason, I think the other unions are quietly very happy to see AMFA taking it in the shorts on this one.

I understand that AMFa was founded by mechanics who were not happy with the representation by the big indudtrial unions. Also, as far as I understand, AMFA is a union which has no mob involvment, unlike e.g. the Teamsters.

Jan
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dl757md
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RE: Deal Expected Between NWA And Mechanics Soon

Sun Sep 11, 2005 7:07 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 11):
I understand that AMFa was founded by mechanics who were not happy with the representation by the big indudtrial unions. Also, as far as I understand, AMFA is a union which has no mob involvment, unlike e.g. the Teamsters.

All true Jan. Hence AMFAs' decision to stay away from the AFL-CIO, the source of most mob involvment in unions.

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LMP737
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RE: Deal Expected Between NWA And Mechanics Soon

Sun Sep 11, 2005 7:45 am

Quoting StevenUhl777 (Reply 7):
Possibly, but if the IAM were to strike, it's very likely that the pilots and F/A's would support them, whereas they didn't with AMFA. NWA mgmt. knows this, and will probably (hopefully) negotiate in better faith with them.

Why would the pilots support the IAM? When the NWA pilots went on strike in 1998 the IAM stayed on the job.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
LMP737
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RE: Deal Expected Between NWA And Mechanics Soon

Sun Sep 11, 2005 7:49 am

Quoting Vegas005 (Reply 9):
These union retards should have read the Eastern Airlines story. They destroyed Eastern (yes..I know bad management too) and partied in the street shouting "we won, we won" when Eastern went bankrupt. These union idiots lost their high paying Eastern jobs and soon took jobs with AA for 2/3 to 1/2 the pay and benefits they made at Eastern. 14 years later and we have the same story...

Read the book Hard Landing. You make the remark they took jobs at AA for 2/3-1/2 pay at AA. Did they all take jobs at AA or are you just making a blanket statement?
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
dl757md
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RE: Deal Expected Between NWA And Mechanics Soon

Sun Sep 11, 2005 7:56 am

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 13):
Why would the pilots support the IAM? When the NWA pilots went on strike in 1998 the IAM stayed on the job

The theory is that both ALPA and IAM are AFL-CIO and therefore ALPA would support an IAM strike whereas AMFA which isn't affiliated with the AFL-CIO received no such support because of it. It's just a theory. I subscribe to your interpretation of the unions ability(inability) to stick together at NWA especially with the current state of the company and managements desire to make the employees pay for their (managements) blunders and short-sightedness.

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AirRyan
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RE: Deal Expected Between NWA And Mechanics Soon

Sun Sep 11, 2005 8:06 am

What would NW do if they didn't get the concessions from the Unions? Okay than what good will that be than when they would file Ch. 11 and everyone would lose a lot more?

If I'm AMFA I'm not sure I can see a good alternative here - upper management is only so big and they could all work for free and the airline still would have the problems that they do with high labor costs and high fuel prices.
 
dl757md
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RE: Deal Expected Between NWA And Mechanics Soon

Sun Sep 11, 2005 8:22 am

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 16):
upper management is only so big and they could all work for free and the airline still would have the problems that they do with high labor costs and high fuel prices.

Nobody is asking management at NWA to work for free. We're saying pull your head out and figure out a way to make the business work. Others (AA,WN,B6,FL) are doing it without completely taking it out on their employees why can't NWA? Again it's not managements own salaries it's their incompetence in running the business that has squandered Billions.

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FlyBoeing
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RE: Deal Expected Between NWA And Mechanics Soon

Sun Sep 11, 2005 12:06 pm

Northwest is so low on cash right now that no deal would save them now. Whatever the mechanics - in isolation - agree to is insufficient to make the difference between bankruptcy and solvency. They're losing $6 million a day (according to my calculations) and the last time they warned their cash was just about at bankruptcy level.

We knew at the offset that $176 million wasn't enough to save them before jet fuel got expensive. They burn 1.6 billion gallons of jet-fuel a year, so the mechanics' deal is worth a little over 10 cents a gallon.

That said - what the pilots and FAs do in concert with the mechs *will* save the company from bankruptcy.

From this we can deduce that Northwest meant this as a "show of force" for the pilots and flight attendants. However, I honestly think they've overplayed their hand by bargaining in such bad faith. The flight attendants and pilots may think similarly to the mechanics - that they'd get a better deal in bankruptcy court than Northwest is willing to offer.
 
m404
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RE: Deal Expected Between NWA And Mechanics Soon

Sun Sep 11, 2005 3:04 pm

FlyBoeing

I've thought along the same lines. Managements timing however got whacked by even faster price increases for fuel and the changes effective Oct 17. Neither was as factor when this plan was initiated. After saying they wanted concession packages for so long they disinterested in negotiations by how very few dates were allocated for them. Some delays were due to conflicts with NMB mediators but overall they really seemed to fritter away too much time. Not to mention the 80s style asset equity elimination management of the Checchi era to blame for depletion of corporate worth. All this very loose talk of Mafia thieves, what about corporate ones?
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StevenUhl777
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RE: Deal Expected Between NWA And Mechanics Soon

Mon Sep 12, 2005 1:35 am

Quoting FlyBoeing (Reply 18):
We knew at the offset that $176 million wasn't enough to save them before jet fuel got expensive. They burn 1.6 billion gallons of jet-fuel a year, so the mechanics' deal is worth a little over 10 cents a gallon

But not even that...remember NW had to spend $107 million over 18 months training replacements, and these replacements are earning just under the AMFA guys, so there's very little cost savings here at all.

Quoting FlyBoeing (Reply 18):
That said - what the pilots and FAs do in concert with the mechs *will* save the company from bankruptcy.

Not at this late stage of the game. I truly believe that NW wants Ch. 11 for the sole purpose of extracting even MORE from all groups.

Quoting FlyBoeing (Reply 18):
The flight attendants and pilots may think similarly to the mechanics - that they'd get a better deal in bankruptcy court than Northwest is willing to offer.

The way NW has been negotiating, they might get a "better" deal in court, and it might be better to have a court being the referee, but everyone loses in Ch. 11. Period.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 11):
I understand that AMFa was founded by mechanics who were not happy with the representation by the big industrial unions. Also, as far as I understand, AMFA is a union which has no mob involvment, unlike e.g. the Teamsters.

The IAM has no mob involvement, either.
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alphascan
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RE: Deal Expected Between NWA And Mechanics Soon

Mon Sep 12, 2005 3:34 am

"and these replacements are earning just under the AMFA guys, so there's very little cost savings here at all. "


Not true. The replacements are earning less than what was the final offer on the table to AMFA mechanics (before the strike) according to an article in the StarTribune. I'd post the link but it is now is archived.
"To he who only has a hammer in his toolbelt, every problem looks like a nail."
 
dl757md
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RE: Deal Expected Between NWA And Mechanics Soon

Mon Sep 12, 2005 3:58 am

Quoting StevenUhl777 (Reply 20):
and these replacements are earning just under the AMFA guys, so there's very little cost savings here at all.

Actually they are earning on an hourly route just less than what AMFA mechs where making before they walked off the job. They are making $32/hr+paid hotel+free tools. The AMFA mechs where making about $35/hr before they walked. The last company proposal on the table before the strike was for $27.28/hr. Granted the replacements are not getting benefits but I don't know what the benefits offered in the company's last offer where valued at.

Quoting Alphascan (Reply 21):
Not true. The replacements are earning less than what was the final offer on the table to AMFA mechanics (before the strike) according to an article in the StarTribune. I'd post the link but it is now is archived.

See above.

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kc135topboom
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RE: Deal Expected Between NWA And Mechanics Soon

Mon Sep 12, 2005 4:57 am

I wonder how the AMFA is going to present this to the rank and file membership? Doesn't the rank and file vote on weather to accept the offer from NW, or not?

If your union made a deal with your employer, to lay off about 75% of your union members, how many members would vote to accept that?  flamed 

Looks like another union painted themselves into that loose-loose corner.  bigthumbsup 
 
StevenUhl777
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RE: Deal Expected Between NWA And Mechanics Soon

Mon Sep 12, 2005 5:20 am

Quoting Dl757md (Reply 22):
Quoting StevenUhl777 (Reply 20):
and these replacements are earning just under the AMFA guys, so there's very little cost savings here at all.

Actually they are earning on an hourly route just less than what AMFA mechs where making before they walked off the job. They are making $32/hr+paid hotel+free tools. The AMFA mechs where making about $35/hr before they walked.

You repeated what I said above, the only difference is that you included actual wage rates.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 23):
I wonder how the AMFA is going to present this to the rank and file membership? Doesn't the rank and file vote on weather to accept the offer from NW, or not?

Present what? There's no agreement right now for them to vote on. If some of the strikers like this new NW offer, they only way they can accept it is to cross the picket line. And I don't see that happening.
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dl757md
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RE: Deal Expected Between NWA And Mechanics Soon

Mon Sep 12, 2005 5:31 am

Quoting StevenUhl777 (Reply 24):
You repeated what I said above, the only difference is that you included actual wage rates.

Right. I just wanted to show that NWA is paying their replacements more than they are willing to pay their original workers.

Dl757Md
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AirRyan
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RE: Deal Expected Between NWA And Mechanics Soon

Mon Sep 12, 2005 6:49 am

Quoting Dl757md (Reply 25):
Quoting StevenUhl777 (Reply 24):
You repeated what I said above, the only difference is that you included actual wage rates.

Right. I just wanted to show that NWA is paying their replacements more than they are willing to pay their original workers.

And if that is the case than the mechs can take solice in knowing that they were not wanted because of their high salaries but they simply were just not wanted for who they were. If managment don't like you than why do they have to keep you?
 
dl757md
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RE: Deal Expected Between NWA And Mechanics Soon

Mon Sep 12, 2005 8:59 am

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 26):
And if that is the case than the mechs can take solice in knowing that they were not wanted because of their high salaries but they simply were just not wanted for who they were. If managment don't like you than why do they have to keep you?

They absolutely don't. But what do all of you bottom liners out there that keep claiming that this is a business decision on the part of NWA think about that. Doesn't sound very good for the bottom line to me.

Dl757Md
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