dl757md
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Alpa Claims Input On DC-9 In 1948?

Sun Sep 11, 2005 7:14 am

http://cf.alpa.org/internet/safetytimeline/Labor1940s.htm

Did Douglas begin discussions, as ALPA claims, on the DC-9 as early as 1948, fully fifteen years before the official launch of the project?

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timz
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RE: Alpa Claims Input On DC-9 In 1948?

Sun Sep 11, 2005 7:26 am

I never heard of a 1948 proposal for a "DC-9"-- but if there was such a proposal it must have had nothing in common with the later DC-9.
 
stirling
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RE: Alpa Claims Input On DC-9 In 1948?

Sun Sep 11, 2005 8:43 am

The JTPO at Douglas Aircraft wasn't formed until 1952.
(JTPO=Jet Transport Project Office)

Impetus was the forthcoming USAF requirement for a jet-powered tanker.

At this time DAC had an order backlog of nearly 300 DC-6 and DC-7 aircraft.

The first flight of the DC-7 was still one year away.

Even as late as 1952, DAC had no idea of what shape or form their jet-powered DC-8 would take. So it's hard for me to believe, that a jet aircraft of any kind was being developed as early as 1948; no matter what the ALPA says.
At the time in question, DAC was busy with the DC-4 and DC-6.
So I think the writer of this article either transposed the "9" for a "6", or just finished an enormous bowl of Jamaica's finest. Either way, jet-powered aircraft 1948 were nothing but a glimmer in Donald's eye.

Trivia. When Pan American ordered 25 DC-8s (and only 20 707s)Boeing went apeshit. Pan Am told Boeing that the wider cabin of the DC-8 allowed 6-abreast seating over the 707 (which shared the cross section of the KC-135, wider still than that of the prototype 367-80, but not as wide as the Douglas.)Boeing went back to the drawing board and came out with a cabin 5cm wider than the DC-8. This design modification has remained in place now for well over 50 years.

The decline of Douglas Aircraft can be traced back to it's not getting a piece of the USAF order, therefore shouldering the jet development costs on it's own. Boeing on the other hand had a fat order from the USAF which went a long way in offsetting some of the enormous R&D costs. Arguably, the DC-8 was a much more versatile and more rugged aircraft, with examples flying still today, while comparable examples of 707s, CV-880s, VC10s and Comets are all but gone from the civilian skys
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CV580Freak
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RE: Alpa Claims Input On DC-9 In 1948?

Sun Sep 11, 2005 9:06 am

Testimony to above, current civilian fleets operating

B707 = 74
DC8 - 150
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dtwclipper
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RE: Alpa Claims Input On DC-9 In 1948?

Sun Sep 11, 2005 11:04 pm

Quoting Dl757md (Thread starter):
Did Douglas begin discussions, as ALPA claims, on the DC-9 as early as 1948, fully fifteen years before the official launch of the project?

In July 1947 Douglas proposed the TS119, labeled DC-9, as a DC-3 replacement. The design was similar in layour and size to the CV-240, though it only carried 28 pax.

See:

Great Airliners: MDC DC-9
by Terry Waddington

[Edited 2005-09-11 16:07:13]
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Rwy32R
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RE: Alpa Claims Input On DC-9 In 1948?

Mon Sep 12, 2005 9:50 am

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 4):
In July 1947 Douglas proposed the TS119

 old Correction:The program was named TS1119

Specifications:
Wing span : 101ft
Overall length : 75ft 8in
Overall weight : 25ft 4 in
Fuselage diameter : 9ft 8in
MTOW : 30,000 lbs
MLW : 29,000 lbs
Empty weight : 19594 lbs
Capacity : 28 passengers and cargo
Payload : 7,000 lbs

Same source:
Great Airliners: MDC DC-9
by Terry Waddington
 
dtwclipper
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RE: Alpa Claims Input On DC-9 In 1948?

Mon Sep 12, 2005 9:52 pm

Quoting Rwy32R (Reply 5):
Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 4):
In July 1947 Douglas proposed the TS119

Correction:The program was named TS1119

Yep, that's called a typo....sorry, but thanks for the heads up! But, at least you and I have read a book now and then and don't jump to wrong conclusions!



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N328KF
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RE: Alpa Claims Input On DC-9 In 1948?

Mon Sep 12, 2005 11:44 pm

Quoting CV580Freak (Reply 3):
Testimony to above, current civilian fleets operating

B707 = 74
DC8 - 150

You are operating with imperfect information. The reason there are more DC-8s flying in civilian fleets is that during the 1980s, USAF basically acquired as many available 707s as they could to provide parts for their vast C-135/C-137/E-3/E-6/E-8 fleets. Some of those airliners in fact, became E-8s.
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dl757md
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RE: Alpa Claims Input On DC-9 In 1948?

Tue Sep 13, 2005 3:49 am

Thanks for the info and clarification guys!

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 6):
at least you and I have read a book now and then and don't jump to wrong conclusions!

Just curious. Was that directed at me? Hope not because I was not drawing conlcusions at all, rather I was searching for clarification on something I couldn't justify in my mind.

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isitsafenow
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RE: Alpa Claims Input On DC-9 In 1948?

Tue Sep 13, 2005 3:57 am

Maybe it was really the DC 5, a twin.
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stirling
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RE: Alpa Claims Input On DC-9 In 1948?

Tue Sep 13, 2005 4:26 am

Where have you been Safe....doesn't matter, good to see you back.

Quoting N328KF (Reply 7):
The reason there are more DC-8s flying in civilian fleets is that during the 1980s, USAF basically acquired as many available 707s as they could to provide parts for their vast C-135/C-137/E-3/E-6/E-8 fleets. Some of those airliners in fact, became E-8s.

That is very true.
So one has to wonder, if the USAF hadn't undertaken the retrofit program, would the 707 be as common today as the DC-8?

When considering Boeing out-produced Douglas, 1830* to 556, the fact remains simply; Douglas built one hell of an aircraft.

*1010-707/720 series commercial and military aircraft
820-717/KC135 military platform aircraft

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 4):
In July 1947 Douglas proposed the TS119, labeled DC-9, as a DC-3 replacement. The design was similar in layour and size to the CV-240, though it only carried 28 pax.

I vaguely remember that.....
At that time anyone in commercial aircraft manufacturing was trying their hand at a replacement for ubiquitous DC-3.....even Douglas.
Douglas however, being the innovator, and having set the standard with the DC-3, chose instead to develop what became universally considered a thoroughbred of the Piston-era; the DC-6....
Wise decision, since all the competing designs to replace the DC-3 ultimately diluted the market; whereas with the DC-6, they had that market virtually all to themselves. (Although Lockheed gave them a good run with the Constellation)
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dtwclipper
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RE: Alpa Claims Input On DC-9 In 1948?

Tue Sep 13, 2005 5:14 am

Quoting Dl757md (Reply 8):
Just curious. Was that directed at me? Hope not because I was not drawing conlcusions at all, rather I was searching for clarification on something I couldn't justify in my mind.

No, it was not directed at you...but to those who immediatly assumed that there was no such DC9 or that it was the current a/c.
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