usnseallt82
Posts: 4727
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2004 4:49 pm

NW And Mechanics Break Off Talks

Mon Sep 12, 2005 1:58 am

In an article released today by CNN, it is reported that NW executives and the striking mechanics have broken off the talks set to rectify the walkout:

http://money.cnn.com/2005/09/11/news...ortune500/northwest.reut/index.htm

All I can say is, good.
Crye me a river
 
usnseallt82
Posts: 4727
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2004 4:49 pm

RE: NW And Mechanics Break Off Talks

Mon Sep 12, 2005 2:31 am

One more thing...apparently this is going to be the last straw. While no official release has been given, there probably won't be anymore talks in the future.

Temps just became permanent.  Big grin
Crye me a river
 
MarshalN
Posts: 1474
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RE: NW And Mechanics Break Off Talks

Mon Sep 12, 2005 2:42 am

All I can say is -- Wow.

If this is really the last talk, I wonder what those mechanics are thinking now.
 
AsstChiefMark
Posts: 10465
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RE: NW And Mechanics Break Off Talks

Mon Sep 12, 2005 2:46 am

Quoting MarshalN (Reply 2):
I wonder what those mechanics are thinking now

"Should I work at Taco Bell? Or should I work at the dry cleaning place?"
Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Damned MSP...Red tail...Red tail
 
1rocco
Posts: 116
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RE: NW And Mechanics Break Off Talks

Mon Sep 12, 2005 3:45 am

This is a very sad day not only for the mechanics but for all unionized workers. I truly don't understand how many of you folks on here can rejoice over the outcome. I would love to know the careers of all of the arm chair CEO's on here. I would love to sit back and pick apart ways your company could get rid of you and send your job overseas or to the lowest bidder. The difference between us airline employees and many of you is that all our laundry is out for everyone to see while you sit behind your computer shooting your mouths thinking it will never happen to you, guess again it may. Your job maybe next.
Rocco
 
usnseallt82
Posts: 4727
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2004 4:49 pm

RE: NW And Mechanics Break Off Talks

Mon Sep 12, 2005 4:32 am

Quoting 1rocco (Reply 4):
I would love to sit back and pick apart ways your company could get rid of you and send your job overseas or to the lowest bidder. The difference between us airline employees and many of you is that all our laundry is out for everyone to see while you sit behind your computer shooting your mouths thinking it will never happen to you, guess again it may. Your job maybe next.

I'd like to see my job outsourced to India. The day that happens is the day Americans should worry about their defense.

And, guess what? The reason why most of rejoice over this is because the majority of those striking in this ONE situation are greedy bastards who want to hold the company hostage. No one is talking about unions as a whole, but this one is not one that is supported very much in America right now.
Crye me a river
 
keesje
Posts: 8611
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

RE: NW And Mechanics Break Off Talks

Mon Sep 12, 2005 4:39 am

Very sad indeed for the families involved.

Many of these folks gave the best years of their lives for the airline.

I truly can´t understand the heartless responds of some members being happy.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
BostonGuy
Posts: 484
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2000 5:49 am

RE: NW And Mechanics Break Off Talks

Mon Sep 12, 2005 5:12 am

Quoting 1rocco (Reply 4):
The difference between us airline employees and many of you is that all our laundry is out for everyone to see while you sit behind your computer shooting your mouths thinking it will never happen to you, guess again it may. Your job maybe next.

Airline employees have their heads in the sand if they think they are the only ones who going through this change.

Millions of Americans outside of the airline industry have experienced this... and have adapted to the realities of a new economy. They didn't make the change by demanding pay that ignored the reality that their company was on the brink of financial collapse or unable to compete under the union's terms.

It's tough. It sucks. But living in an imaginary world based on business models that no longer work will not help you.

We're not arm-chair CEO's. We're people who've already experienced this. And that is why union membership has plummeted in America. Unions, as they currently operate, are no longer relevant or helpful to today's workers.
 
FlyBoeing
Posts: 835
Joined: Fri May 05, 2000 2:08 am

RE: NW And Mechanics Break Off Talks

Mon Sep 12, 2005 5:25 am

Not sure why people are claiming victory on behalf of Northwest's management. Victory means all of three things:

1) The mechanics agree to the terms set out for them, or

1a) They get the replacements to continue delivering high-quality output indefinitely at a wage *lower* than what they're getting now.

2) The other unions follow their lead, and

3) The airline doesn't go bankrupt.

The events of the past few days don't provide much support for any one of the 3 neccesary conditions for Northwest to survive.
 
UAcosCS
Posts: 380
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2005 6:18 am

RE: NW And Mechanics Break Off Talks

Mon Sep 12, 2005 5:46 am

Quoting 1rocco (Reply 4):
This is a very sad day not only for the mechanics but for all unionized workers.

They got what they wanted. They voted to strike, they struck, and now they are out of work. What part of the process don't you understand? The end justifies the means. They knew the end result could end in loss of employment.


Cant blame ANYBODY but the mechanics and members of AMFA

UAL employees knew during this BK process that the company needed give backs, if we refused they could and would outsource any group but the pilots, or risk tossing out our contracts.

Do you think it would have made sense? No, let the employees know the dire need to give back, give back and receive profit sharing and raises once the company returns to healthy.
We had dreams and songs to sing, It's so lonely round the fields of Athenry.
 
AAgent
Posts: 540
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2001 11:41 pm

RE: NW And Mechanics Break Off Talks

Mon Sep 12, 2005 5:57 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 6):
I truly can´t understand the heartless responds of some members being happy.

Perhaps they're not so heartless after all. It may be the case that many either remember or have studied the history of commercial aviation and see the names of some great airlines that no longer exist, killed by the greed of their unions. Many of these people are happy because NW would appear to be making some headway in their battle to survive, by breaking the union in this case. Lower costs are mandated in today's operating environment. They're not optional. Many unions don't seem to understand this sad new reality.

Best Regards,
AAgent
War Eagle!
 
dl757md
Posts: 1482
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RE: NW And Mechanics Break Off Talks

Mon Sep 12, 2005 6:03 am

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 5):
And, guess what? The reason why most of rejoice over this is because the majority of those striking in this ONE situation are greedy bastards who want to hold the company hostage. No one is talking about unions as a whole, but this one is not one that is supported very much in America right now.

Usnseallt82. I'm sorry that you think that a majority of the mechanics striking are greedy bastards. I feel sorry for you that you can't possibly fathom how when a majority of group of workers is going to be laid off that they might be justified in fighting to save their jobs.

When you as a soldier go into battle is the outcome known with complete certainty? Absolutely not, just as AMFA knew there was no certainty that they would come out of a strike better off than they went into it.

Would you be called a greedy warmongering bloodthirsty pig if you where forced into a battle rather than surrender under the terms that 53% of your troops would be executed? No. you would be called a hero even if your entire force was wiped out.

These people aren't greedy or misguided. They are fighting for what they believe in. Something that I would hope you, being in the military and all, would understand.

Quoting BostonGuy (Reply 7):
We're not arm-chair CEO's. We're people who've already experienced this.

And you just laid down and took it. Shame on you!!!

Dl757Md
757 Most beautiful airliner in the sky!
 
BostonGuy
Posts: 484
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2000 5:49 am

RE: NW And Mechanics Break Off Talks

Mon Sep 12, 2005 6:19 am

Quoting Dl757md (Reply 11):
And you just laid down and took it. Shame on you!!!

I'm making more money and working fewer hours. Why should I be ashamed of accomplishing that?

How does your twisted logic work, pray tell?
 
BigGSFO
Posts: 2213
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2005 5:27 am

RE: NW And Mechanics Break Off Talks

Mon Sep 12, 2005 6:34 am

Another press release on the same topic:

NW makes a statement about the AMFA's decision to break-off talks.

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/050911/nysu025.html?.v=14
 
dl757md
Posts: 1482
Joined: Mon May 24, 2004 9:32 am

RE: NW And Mechanics Break Off Talks

Mon Sep 12, 2005 6:47 am

Quoting BostonGuy (Reply 12):
I'm making more money and working fewer hours. Why should I be ashamed of accomplishing that?

How does your twisted logic work, pray tell?

Great for you! But the fact of the matter is that most people in this country who have been through this are not in your postion. They are having to work more hours at lower pay to make ends meet. The consumer economy that we are becoming is setting us all up for a huge fall. We will have no real goods to offer or the infrastructure to produce them. All wealth generated in this country will be "on paper" and will only be worth that paper when the our baseless economy can no longer sustain itself.

Dl757Md
757 Most beautiful airliner in the sky!
 
BostonGuy
Posts: 484
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RE: NW And Mechanics Break Off Talks

Mon Sep 12, 2005 6:50 am

Quoting Dl757md (Reply 14):
But the fact of the matter is that most people in this country who have been through this are not in your postion.

Most? As in more than 50%?

If that's what you are claiming then please share with us some specific sources.

I know you'll find this exercise to be most enlightening.
 
MarshalN
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RE: NW And Mechanics Break Off Talks

Mon Sep 12, 2005 6:53 am

Just for the record, I was actually quite concerned about the striking workers and when I say "I wonder what they're thinking now" what I really meant was that I think they're now stuck in a bind that nobody would want to be in. I do wish them luck. It probably came off as an anti-union comment though :/
 
1rocco
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RE: NW And Mechanics Break Off Talks

Mon Sep 12, 2005 7:09 am

Quote:
They got what they wanted. They voted to strike, they struck, and now they are out of work. What part of the process don't you understand? The end justifies the means. They knew the end result could end in loss of employment.

Get your head out of the sand. Did you see the demands NWA was asking of the mechanics? Would anyone in there right mind vote to eliminate 53% of there workforce? Oh yeah that's right it would be for the good of the company and for the industry. What were those greedy mechanics thinking. This is pure union busting.. Nothing more nothing less.
 
usnseallt82
Posts: 4727
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2004 4:49 pm

RE: NW And Mechanics Break Off Talks

Mon Sep 12, 2005 7:11 am

Quoting Dl757md (Reply 11):
These people aren't greedy or misguided. They are fighting for what they believe in. Something that I would hope you, being in the military and all, would understand.

Christ, they're mechanics and janitors who think making only $60,000 a year is not enough. And you want to compare that to the duty of fighting for your country? They're not fighting for some greater good...the majority of them are fighting to keep money that 1000 others waiting behind them in the regional carriers and local FBO's would love to take!

Yes, I call this greedy....narrow-minded as well. But I've posted more than my fair share of comments about this, so I'll leave it alone.
Crye me a river
 
OttoPylit
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RE: NW And Mechanics Break Off Talks

Mon Sep 12, 2005 7:39 am

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 5):
I'd like to see my job outsourced to India. The day that happens is the day Americans should worry about their defense.

3 words- Unmanned Aerial Vehicles. I know, I know, they can't do EVERYTHING that a manned aircraft can do, but can do a lot. Just like a contract NW mechanic may not be able to do EVERYTHING a unionized NW mechanic can(for now), but they can do a lot.

I know, as the band Dos Gringos sings in "Predator Eulogy", the man is holding you down.


www.dosgringosrocks.com

OttoPylit
I don't have a microwave, but I do have a clock that occasionally cooks shit.
 
dl757md
Posts: 1482
Joined: Mon May 24, 2004 9:32 am

RE: NW And Mechanics Break Off Talks

Mon Sep 12, 2005 7:56 am

Quoting BostonGuy (Reply 15):
Most? As in more than 50%?

If that's what you are claiming then please share with us some specific sources.

I know you'll find this exercise to be most enlightening.

Here'smy source.

Basically from May 2001 to May 2004 (the most recent date available for the info I'm quoting) the avg annual wage rose 9.2% from $34,020 to $37,020 while the CPI (consumer product Index) rose 6.4%. From this one would infer that standard of living rose. However, during the same time period the number of people in the work force rose only .1% from 127,980,410 to 128,127,360 and the avg hourly wage rose less than .1% from $8.09 to $8.17(in 1982 $).
Therefore the avg number of hours per worker rose by almost 11%! Of course you worked fewer hours so someone had to work an extra part-time job on top of the the full time job and other part-time job they already had to offset you so the above facts ended up the way they are.

I think based on what I've shown you that 50% of the people who've faced downsizing are working more and making less as I said. You're one of the lucky ones. Nice of you though to try to deligitimize the plight of those who haven't been as fortunate.

Dl757Md
757 Most beautiful airliner in the sky!
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: NW And Mechanics Break Off Talks

Mon Sep 12, 2005 8:04 am

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 18):
Christ, they're mechanics and janitors who think making only $60,000 a year is not enough. And you want to compare that to the duty of fighting for your country? They're not fighting for some greater good...the majority of them are fighting to keep money that 1000 others waiting behind them in the regional carriers and local FBO's would love to take!

Do you really believe that if the AMFA mechanics accepted the pay cuts, NWA would hire more people?
The difference would go straight into the pockets of ther management and the share holders. NWA is interested in having LESS mechanics, not in keeping the number.

And BTW, why should a company bean counter management type earn a few millions every year? He is not producing anything, he is just shuffling money from one account to another.
I have seen enough of the MBA management wonders at work, who didn't have a clue about the industry they were working in.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
dl757md
Posts: 1482
Joined: Mon May 24, 2004 9:32 am

RE: NW And Mechanics Break Off Talks

Mon Sep 12, 2005 8:06 am

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 18):
Christ, they're mechanics and janitors who think making only $60,000 a year is not enough

I'll continue to debate you when you decide to refer to the facts rather than you're isolated, uninformed, closeminded, all I've ever known in the grown-up world is the military, fictional view of the world. Until then....Happy flying.

Dl757Md
757 Most beautiful airliner in the sky!
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: NW And Mechanics Break Off Talks

Mon Sep 12, 2005 8:14 am

Might be interesting:
http://www.apapdp.org/cms/index.php?...ption=com_content&task=view&id=449

Executive Douglas Steenland of NWA receives $4,421,480 compensation per year. With this he is in the upper middle area of management compensations. His Southwest counterparts earn much less.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
usnseallt82
Posts: 4727
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2004 4:49 pm

RE: NW And Mechanics Break Off Talks

Mon Sep 12, 2005 9:18 am

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 19):
3 words- Unmanned Aerial Vehicles.

Okay, you got me there. A very real possibility but not anytime soon. Still, we all keep tabs on their progress.  eyepopping 

Quoting Dl757md (Reply 22):
I'll continue to debate you when you decide to refer to the facts rather than you're isolated, uninformed, closeminded, all I've ever known in the grown-up world is the military, fictional view of the world. Until then....Happy flying.

A yes...military and fictional in the same sentence. Real smart buddy.

Instead of being a prick, how about you tell me the facts of the matter in your own isolated, uninformed, close-minded, all you've ever known is NW, supposedly non-fictional view of the world?

I'll be waiting...
Crye me a river
 
flanker
Posts: 1407
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 8:42 am

RE: NW And Mechanics Break Off Talks

Mon Sep 12, 2005 10:26 am

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 3):
"Should I work at Taco Bell? Or should I work at the dry cleaning place?"

and dont forget " Oh shit i shouldve taken that paycut!"
Calling an illegal alien an 'undocumented immigrant' is like calling a drug dealer an unlicensed pharmacist
 
dl757md
Posts: 1482
Joined: Mon May 24, 2004 9:32 am

RE: NW And Mechanics Break Off Talks

Mon Sep 12, 2005 10:27 am

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 24):
I'll be waiting...

Wait no more!

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 24):
A yes...military and fictional in the same sentence. Real smart buddy.

I can't begin to tell you the number of pilots I've talked to that came from the military who have had it ingrained into them not to question authority. They don't trust the unions because management is the authority figure in a company. After only a short while at the airlines they're all for a union because they figure out in short order that their management is not to be trusted. It ain't the same out here buddy.

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 24):
Instead of being a prick, how about you tell me the facts of the matter in your own isolated, uninformed, close-minded, all you've ever known is NW, supposedly non-fictional view of the world?

First off I've never worked for NW, I'm a line mechanic for Delta (non-union). The reason I so vehemently defend my profession and therefore AMFA is to inform ignorant jackasses like you. You claim that $60K isn't enough for those guys, that they want more. Maybe if you'd pull your head out and read some of the information posted on here that is linked to facts and figures, you'd realize that they'd of given their left nut for that. But NWA never offered it to them or even accepted AMFA's offer of a 20% paycut(which would have put them at about $56K) plus 1100-1300 job cuts. So quit only listening to those who side with you(none of which I've seen post any figure from NWA-they aren't available from NWA only AMFA) for your figures.

Dl757MD
757 Most beautiful airliner in the sky!
 
jessman
Posts: 1457
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2001 1:11 pm

RE: NW And Mechanics Break Off Talks

Mon Sep 12, 2005 11:40 am

Quoting 1rocco (Reply 17):
Get your head out of the sand. Did you see the demands NWA was asking of the mechanics? Would anyone in there right mind vote to eliminate 53% of there workforce? Oh yeah that's right it would be for the good of the company and for the industry. What were those greedy mechanics thinking. This is pure union busting.. Nothing more nothing less.

Instead of choosing to eliminate 53% of their workforce they chose to eliminate 100%

I find the fact that the other unions at NW chose to cross the picket line very telling here.

It seems they have lost. I do hope they all find good jobs. I am somewhat encouraged by the projected unemployment rates in Minnesota (only 3.6% as of July) http://www.bls.gov/lau/home.htm. I would guess their base being at MSP would be good for a lot of the mechanics involved, but other places are not as well off, of course.
 
ny-jfk-lga
Posts: 331
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2000 2:09 am

RE: NW And Mechanics Break Off Talks

Mon Sep 12, 2005 11:44 am

Some of you are so happy I see. Ya just keep saying how they need to get rid of the striking mechanics and give the jobs to the people with lower rates. Well think about this........obviously these new people are not unionized. Whats gonna happen when NW decides they need MORE money from these same people who already are working for little? I don't think these replacements can afford a pay cut from what they're getting now. They may quit and NW will be in major trouble.
Bring back McDonnell Douglas & T W A!!
 
LMP737
Posts: 4800
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 4:06 pm

RE: NW And Mechanics Break Off Talks

Mon Sep 12, 2005 11:51 am

Quoting UAcosCS (Reply 9):
UAL employees knew during this BK process that the company needed give backs, if we refused they could and would outsource any group but the pilots, or risk tossing out our contracts.



Quoting Flanker (Reply 25):
and dont forget " Oh shit i shouldve taken that paycut!"

Two people who seem to be under the impression that they were saying no to concessions. When the facts are they were willing to take concessions.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
hammer
Posts: 638
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 9:02 am

RE: NW And Mechanics Break Off Talks

Mon Sep 12, 2005 11:59 am

The severance package AMFA wanted was 20 weeks...NWA offered 16, AMFA said no and walked, over 4 weeks!!!!! Seriously AMFA, give me a break, 16 weeks of pay in one lump sum is better than 0 weeks....what pricks, offer this for a vote and it would have passed....way to screw alot of people over..over 4 f-ing weeks....
 
flanker
Posts: 1407
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 8:42 am

RE: NW And Mechanics Break Off Talks

Mon Sep 12, 2005 12:19 pm

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 29):

Two people who seem to be under the impression that they were saying no to concessions. When the facts are they were willing to take concessions.

Never said they weren't.
Calling an illegal alien an 'undocumented immigrant' is like calling a drug dealer an unlicensed pharmacist
 
Derik737
Posts: 262
Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 5:53 am

RE: NW And Mechanics Break Off Talks

Mon Sep 12, 2005 12:34 pm

Quoting Hammer (Reply 30):
offer this for a vote and it would have passed

Sure, 3/4 of the membership would have voted themselves out of a job for 3 months severance. Yup, sure.  Yeah sure
 
Derik737
Posts: 262
Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 5:53 am

RE: NW And Mechanics Break Off Talks

Mon Sep 12, 2005 12:36 pm

What is really going to be interesting is to see how many of the "temporary workers" will actually accept full time employement at the wage that NWA will pay them. In taking a job, they will have to give up their per diem and free housing that they have enjoyed so far.
 
legacytravel
Posts: 385
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2005 2:05 pm

RE: NW And Mechanics Break Off Talks

Mon Sep 12, 2005 1:45 pm

Well I do feel sorry for the most of the families involved, that are losing their jobs. As for the militant union members who wanted to see the NWA go down the tubes I hope you have been practicing the slogan "would you like fries with that?" Mickey D's should be hiring.
This union is getting a good helping of KMA or Kiss My A#! NWA style. This is a perfect end to a rotten union. AMFA in NWA is no more!!!!!! WOOHOOOO..
Mark in MKE.
I love the smell of Jet fuel in the Morning
 
zvezda
Posts: 8891
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 8:48 pm

RE: NW And Mechanics Break Off Talks

Mon Sep 12, 2005 2:07 pm

Quoting Dl757md (Reply 11):
Would you be called a greedy warmongering bloodthirsty pig if you where forced into a battle rather than surrender under the terms that 53% of your troops would be executed?

False analogy. There is a world of difference between being executed and needing to find another job.

Quoting Derik737 (Reply 32):
Sure, 3/4 of the membership would have voted themselves out of a job for 3 months severance. Yup, sure.

They were already out of a job -- by their own choosing. Now they've chosen to forgo a 16 week severance package too. If I were a McDonalds manager, I would hope to find more intelligent workers.
 
northwestair
Posts: 514
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2001 11:25 am

RE: NW And Mechanics Break Off Talks

Mon Sep 12, 2005 2:43 pm

I am waiting to see how many AMFA Mechs cross the Picket line on Tuesday. I have a feeling that a lot are going to do it. Just my gut feeling
I don't care who you fly just as long as you fly
 
Shenzhen
Posts: 1664
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2003 12:11 pm

RE: NW And Mechanics Break Off Talks

Mon Sep 12, 2005 5:04 pm

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 5):
I'd like to see my job outsourced to India. The day that happens is the day Americans should worry about their defense.

I don't think it takes a brain surgeon to clean shitters and wax the floor. LOL
 
hammer
Posts: 638
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 9:02 am

RE: NW And Mechanics Break Off Talks

Mon Sep 12, 2005 7:17 pm

Quoting Derik737 (Reply 32):
Sure, 3/4 of the membership would have voted themselves out of a job for 3 months severance. Yup, sure.

They, being the ones who were going to be losing there jobs, YES, they would rather have something or nothing. Don't get me wrong, they would love to keep there jobs, but NWA has proved that they can run the operation with alot less guys, and AMFA members know that, so would you rather get something or nothing?
 
AMFAproud
Posts: 27
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2005 7:23 am

RE: NW And Mechanics Break Off Talks

Mon Sep 12, 2005 8:14 pm

As a Northwest Mechanic I'm disgusted with the flag waving ignorance of some of these post. It has been NW plan for years to file bankruptcy! I have heard this will happen Thursday so as to take advantage of the current laws that are more "executive friendly". This management team will screw the employees who gave up 100's of millions for worthless stock in 1993 concessions, the state of Minnesota that loaned 100's of millions for bailouts and jobs, and the pilots(and everyone else) pension plans to the PGBC. To admire and praise this managment team as smart businessman makes my patriotic blood boil. I stand proud in defiance with my AMFA brothers on the line!
 
zvezda
Posts: 8891
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 8:48 pm

RE: NW And Mechanics Break Off Talks

Mon Sep 12, 2005 8:24 pm

Quoting Northwestair (Reply 36):
I am waiting to see how many AMFA Mechs cross the Picket line on Tuesday.

There are two groups of mechanics who will cross the picket lines: the hard workers and the smart ones. The others will continue to picket.
 
Derik737
Posts: 262
Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 5:53 am

RE: NW And Mechanics Break Off Talks

Mon Sep 12, 2005 8:26 pm

Quoting Hammer (Reply 38):
but NWA has proved that they can run the operation with alot less guys

So did ValuJet. For awhile...

Remember that salaried managers (including engineers with A&P's) are working 16 hour days with one day off a week (and most away from home base). Meanwhile, their normal work load is piling up back home.
 
BOS2LAF
Posts: 353
Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2004 8:21 am

RE: NW And Mechanics Break Off Talks

Mon Sep 12, 2005 9:54 pm

Quoting AMFAproud (Reply 39):
To admire and praise this managment team as smart businessman makes my patriotic blood boil.

To be fair, I think neither side smells like roses here. AMFA doesn't seem to realize that No company=No jobs for ANYONE. Assuming their strike was successful, and they ran NW into the ground, Congratulations, you just f*cked over the rest of the NW employees, does it feel good?. It does suck a lot that 53% would've been out of a job, but the company needs to make huge changes in the way they operate in order to remain competitive. If they don't stay competitive, like I said before, No company=No jobs. Other people have pointed out other flaws in AMFAs thinking, so I'll leave it at that.

On the other side, it seems to me that if management genuinely cared about the future of the company, they'd take pay cuts too (ala Gordon Bethune, to show, "hey, we're in this together") But the fact that these guys rake in millions and millions of dollars a year while asking to cut 53% of the mechanics shows that they care just as little as AMFA does (and if you think AMFA really does care, let's remember the head guy that said "We'd rather see them go bankrupt."). A professor of mine pointed out that after bonuses and stock options, Steenland clears $8 million a year (she could be off, but I'm willing to bet she's close). Cut $1 million from his salary and/or bonuses, I mean for chrissake, he'd still be clearing a mere $7 million. I don't think that would put him out on the street. How many other execs are making several million dollars? Cut their salaries/bonuses too. If they can't stomach it, fine, there's the door, don't let it hit you in the a$$. They need to trim the proverbial fat at ALL levels, and the managers that recognize that and are willing to agree to pay cuts of their own, are the people that should be running the company.

It comes down to greed on BOTH sides. Neither wants to give up their piece of the pie. Instead of workting together to put the company on the right track, it's all about "Me me me!"
 
FlyGuyClt
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RE: NW And Mechanics Break Off Talks

Mon Sep 12, 2005 9:58 pm

Quoting BOS2LAF (Reply 42):
It comes down to greed on BOTH sides. Neither wants to give up their piece of the pie. Instead of workting together to put the company on the right track, it's all about "Me me me!"

You sum it up. RESPECT is the missing in"greed"iant.

Safe Flying  Smile
Florida Express, Braniff II and ......
 
N867BX
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RE: NW And Mechanics Break Off Talks

Tue Sep 13, 2005 1:46 am

Quoting Legacytravel (Reply 34):
I hope you have been practicing the slogan "would you like fries with that?" Mickey D's should be hiring.

I am SOOO tired of hearing this. Everyone orders value meals today, the fries are included!!! If you want to give useful occupational advice, perhaps you should advise them to practice the slogan "and what kind of drink would you like with that value meal". By suggesting that these people practice "would you like fries with that?" is certainly going to set them up to fail in their new line of work.
 
KarlB737
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RE: NW And Mechanics Break Off Talks

Tue Sep 13, 2005 2:08 am

Courtesy: WCCO-TV

Talks Between Union, Airline Collapse

Video Report:

http://wcco.com/video/?id=10014@wcco.dayport.com

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Courtesy: WCCO-TV

What's Next For Northwest Airlines?

Video Report:

http://wcco.com/video/?id=10025@wcco.dayport.com
 
MattRB
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RE: NW And Mechanics Break Off Talks

Tue Sep 13, 2005 2:58 am

Quoting Dl757md (Reply 11):
Usnseallt82. I'm sorry that you think that a majority of the mechanics striking are greedy bastards. I feel sorry for you that you can't possibly fathom how when a majority of group of workers is going to be laid off that they might be justified in fighting to save their jobs.

53% layoff vs 100% layoff. I'll agree that either number sucks, but one is certainly better than the other.

Quoting Dl757md (Reply 11):
When you as a soldier go into battle is the outcome known with complete certainty? Absolutely not, just as AMFA knew there was no certainty that they would come out of a strike better off than they went into it.

 redflag  Bull. AMFA knew that NWA had backup in the form of the replacement MX they had lined up. 18 months. That's how long it's been out there. If one couldn't infer from that that NWA was willing to play hardball with the situation, then they have no business being union management.

The union reps at NWA took their members from the flightline right into the unemployment line and there is no excuse for what they did. If I were an AMFA member, I'd be looking for a few people from union management to string up.
Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible.
 
Dougloid
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RE: NW And Mechanics Break Off Talks

Tue Sep 13, 2005 3:21 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 6):
Keesje From Netherlands, joined Apr 2001, 3819 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted Sun Sep 11 2005 21:39:06 UTC+2 and read 911 times:


Very sad indeed for the families involved.

Many of these folks gave the best years of their lives for the airline.

I truly can´t understand the heartless responds of some members being happy.

Thanks brother....I may disagree with you about a lot, but we're on the same piece of sheet music here.

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 18):
Usnseallt82 From United States, joined Jan 2004, 1047 posts, RR: 20
Reply 18, posted Mon Sep 12 2005 00:11:18 UTC+2 and read 705 times:


Quoting Dl757md (Reply 11):
These people aren't greedy or misguided. They are fighting for what they believe in. Something that I would hope you, being in the military and all, would understand.

Christ, they're mechanics and janitors who think making only $60,000 a year is not enough. And you want to compare that to the duty of fighting for your country? They're not fighting for some greater good...the majority of them are fighting to keep money that 1000 others waiting behind them in the regional carriers and local FBO's would love to take!

Yes, I call this greedy....narrow-minded as well. But I've posted more than my fair share of comments about this, so I'll leave it alone.

People who live in glass houses ought not throw stones....You are a member of an organization that has quite a history of wasting money and feeding at the public trough.

Do not presume to lecture people about greed and narrowmindedness.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
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RE: NW And Mechanics Break Off Talks

Tue Sep 13, 2005 5:35 am

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 5):
in this ONE situation are greedy bastards who want to hold the company hostage.

 redflag  Not true - but your mind has long since been made up so I won't attempt to change it by providing the background of this dispute.

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 5):
No one is talking about unions as a whole

 redflag  Not true - or at least not true for the majority of people here. There's a general animosity toward unions in general, and while I am NOT a "rah-rah, pro-union all the way" guy, they DO have their place and DO ensure that management doesn't ride roughshod over the workers at will.

Fact of the matter is that all the labor bloodletting over the past few years hasn't produced anything except long lines at unemployment. In fact, WN - darling of the industry - has the highest direct labor costs in the industry while bankrupt US continues to lose money hand over fist despite enjoying the lowest direct labor costs in the industry.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
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RE: NW And Mechanics Break Off Talks

Tue Sep 13, 2005 6:12 am

Quoting 1rocco (Reply 4):
I would love to sit back and pick apart ways your company could get rid of you and send your job overseas or to the lowest bidder.

[sniped out text to truncate]

Airline employees have their heads in the sand if they think they are the only ones who going through this change.

Well said. Its not that any of us are against people earning good incomes. Its is the fact that most of us have been through the changes and now understand that *every* year we must change again. I've been responsible for automating away three of my last four jobs. Guess what, that doesn't mean the company gets rid of me, it means that they don't hire (or get rid of) the individual who can't move on to the next level.

Because of said automation, we have freed up workforce for 1st the industrial revolution (think of how many poor farm laborers were put out of work by the early mechanical reapers). Now computerization is freeing up labor for service industries. e.g., I spent the weekend at Disneyland. Do I feel sad for my two friends who work for Disney? No! They've acquired the required training (college) to move up the food chain and out earn me.

To survive, every company must increase its productivity 2 to 3% a year. Unions *halt* this progress which leaves their employer in a weakened position versus the competition. Why aren't the unions helping improve productivity and quality in their companies? The aerospace technicians who work for me are responsible for quality and productivity. Guess what? End result is I throw them into *more* training, promote them and we all rise together. Now, 2/3rds of the guys working for me are in a union (joint project two companies). Guess what, while several of them have gotten certified as "experts" on a system, *none* can actually do the job. Heck, last week the union guys slowed work down so that I would be forced to call in a Saturday shift. Instead, three non-union guys busted their ba**s and finished the work at 0100 (yes, past midnight). This saved the company a bundle. If you think the "little guy is always shafted," I happen to know that every one of my technicians received the same (or larger) bonus that I did last year. All in all fair to everyone. (And I liked the bonus  spin  Wink

Its the hit in productivity that unions create that pisses off the rest of us. If you have ever read Adam Smith's wealth of nations, he'll point out that while efficiency does displace jobs short term, it increases *everyone's* standard of living in the long run. If you buy the book, try to buy an old version; for some reason the newer printings take out his chapter on the diseconomies of slavery; its one of the better chapters too and explains the benefit of motivating a workforce versus just "driving" them.

Back On track, NW has to do what will put them in a survivable future. Ideally it would be with a motivated mechanic work force who is motivated to propel the company to greater efficiencies. Now why can WN's unions constantly improve productivity and no one else's? WN is at 72 workers per aircraft on the way down to 68 (sans layoffs).

Lightsaber

ps
Let me admit to an anti-union bias. The Teamsters were kind enough to show up at my kindergarten and let me, in detail, how if my daddy didn't cooperate with them the ways I could die. So that left "an interesting taste" in my mouth.
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain

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