flydl2atl
Posts: 115
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NW And DL Could File BK As Early As Wed

Wed Sep 14, 2005 3:41 am

Looks like NWA will be joining Jerry & Co. at Bankruptcy court.

http://biz.yahoo.com/cbsmb/050913/cd...04bc43a09c16b618d4173f58.html?.v=1
 
kappel
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RE: NW And DL Could File BK As Early As Wed

Wed Sep 14, 2005 3:46 am

I didn't know NW was in such bad shape. But what happens to the striking workers now? Can NW just fire them upder Ch 11 or are they protected somehow? I hope NW doensn't misuse the Ch 11 filing just to resolve the strike.
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kappel
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RE: NW And DL Could File BK As Early As Wed

Wed Sep 14, 2005 3:52 am

Nevermind, I just read the other thread. Apparantly they don't need Ch.11 to fire the strikers.
L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
 
Braniff727
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RE: NW And DL Could File BK As Early As Wed

Wed Sep 14, 2005 3:56 am

This, frankly, is not a surprise to me. I think had NW gotten wage concessions earlier on in the game, rather that waiting they may have been in better shape. Ultimately, this will probably end up getting them the cost savings they need a lot easier.
Climbing
 
bobnwa
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RE: NW And DL Could File BK As Early As Wed

Wed Sep 14, 2005 3:57 am

Quoting Kappel (Reply 1):
Apparantly they don't need Ch.11 to fire the strikers.

Aren't the strikers being encourged to come back? Where did it say they were being fired?
 
kappel
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RE: NW And DL Could File BK As Early As Wed

Wed Sep 14, 2005 4:01 am

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 4):
Aren't the strikers being encourged to come back? Where did it say they were being fired?

See this thread
Northwest To Keep Replacement Workers..... (by Alberchico Sep 13 2005 in Civil Aviation)

Since they will be keeping the replacements, I assume the strikers will be let go.
L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
 
Braniff727
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RE: NW And DL Could File BK As Early As Wed

Wed Sep 14, 2005 4:08 am

Quoting Kappel (Reply 5):
Since they will be keeping the replacements, I assume the strikers will be let go.

Actually, the strikers continue to strike. From what I understand they just remain on strike, however they can come back to work, however only if there are positions available. Since the replacement workers are now permanent, and NW said they only intend to keep 1080 mechanic jobs, I would assume very few would be able to come back at this point.
Climbing
 
flydl2atl
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RE: NW And DL Could File BK As Early As Wed

Wed Sep 14, 2005 4:14 am

I wonder if the powers that be (GE) would want to merge the two bankrupt carriers once they shed some of their debt and union contracts.
 
Braniff727
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RE: NW And DL Could File BK As Early As Wed

Wed Sep 14, 2005 4:23 am

Quoting Flydl2atl (Reply 7):
I wonder if the powers that be (GE) would want to merge the two bankrupt carriers once they shed some of their debt and union contracts.

That was a rumor I heard around NW. I stress rumor, with nothing credible behind it. I heard several versions from DL would file Ch.7 and take over the whole company, then file Ch.11. to NW and DL filing, then pulling an HP / US thing.

Now that it looks like they will both file on the same day, makes me thing something might be in the works...
Climbing
 
commavia
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RE: NW And DL Could File BK As Early As Wed

Wed Sep 14, 2005 4:32 am

Quoting Flydl2atl (Reply 7):
I wonder if the powers that be (GE) would want to merge the two bankrupt carriers once they shed some of their debt and union contracts.

I was thinking the same thing. Since we know that GE will be financing DL's bankruptcy, and that (based on recent history), it is quite possible that they might also be financing NW's, I don't think it outside the realm of possibility at all that GE might want to merge the two into a single company.

On a somewhat related note: if DL and NW were to merge -- which I think would create an excellent network but makes little to no sense -- I'd bet that NW will restart JFK-NRT quickly. Combining DL feed and market presence in New York would probably make the route a success once again, at least IMO.
 
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litz
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RE: NW And DL Could File BK As Early As Wed

Wed Sep 14, 2005 4:33 am

Quoting Braniff727 (Reply 8):
Quoting Flydl2atl (Reply 7):
I wonder if the powers that be (GE) would want to merge the two bankrupt carriers once they shed some of their debt and union contracts.

That was a rumor I heard around NW. I stress rumor, with nothing credible behind it. I heard several versions from DL would file Ch.7 and take over the whole company, then file Ch.11. to NW and DL filing, then pulling an HP / US thing.

Now that it looks like they will both file on the same day, makes me thing something might be in the works...

That would be real intersting to watch fallout from - as has been pointed out in the numerous DL/NW threads, a DL/NW merger has significant issues to overcome (see the many numerous threads themselves for details).

- litz
 
bpat777
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RE: NW And DL Could File BK As Early As Wed

Wed Sep 14, 2005 4:36 am

Is it possible for anything positive to come out of DL and/or NW filing for BK?
 
AAgent
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RE: NW And DL Could File BK As Early As Wed

Wed Sep 14, 2005 4:37 am

Given today's harsh economic environment, a trip to bankruptcy court now appears more like hanging out inside the country club. The tragic flip side is that many of the stronger airlines are left outside in the real world to take the full force of this financial monsoon...a storm that is made more fierce by the artificial forces protecting competitors, competitors that market forces have already clearly demonstrated should no longer exist. Whatever happened to the capitalistic notion that "the strongest survive"? The system wasn't never intended to be a convalescent home for the weak.

This isn't a judgment call on the weakened carriers, it's simply an observation. There have been some tremendous forces at work for the past several years, any of which could have caused the demise of a great air carrier. Is there any way to stop this cancerous spread and instead allow market forces to do their work?

Best Regards,
AAgent
War Eagle!
 
Zone1
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RE: NW And DL Could File BK As Early As Wed

Wed Sep 14, 2005 4:46 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 9):
if DL and NW were to merge -- which I think would create an excellent network but makes little to no sense

A DL/NW merger would make a sweet international route structure, but the domestic routes and the fleet would need some serious revamping. The company would have large amounts of Airbuses, Boeings, and of course our cherished MD products. A lot of planes would need to be dumped and seats would definitely be removed from the market, which is exactly what the industry needs. GE would be happy financing some new planes after things are worked out. Might we see a 787 and 747Adv in Delta colors?

I don't think anyone thought the filing for NW would be this close, as evident in the 57% drop in the stock price today. NW is also in default with Mesaba:
http://yahoo.reuters.com/financeQuot...05-09-13_18-37-17_n13583440_newsml

Things are looking pretty bad for NW today.
/// U N I T E D
 
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STT757
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RE: NW And DL Could File BK As Early As Wed

Wed Sep 14, 2005 4:52 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 9):
On a somewhat related note: if DL and NW were to merge -- which I think would create an excellent network but makes little to no sense -- I'd bet that NW will restart JFK-NRT quickly. Combining DL feed and market presence in New York would probably make the route a success once again, at least IMO.

Even if DL did merge with NWA the combined company would still be behind CO, AA and B6 in the NYC market. Also remember DL operated JFK-NRT and dropped the route, their "larger" presence in the NY market and feeder flights at JFK were not enough.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
KarlB737
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RE: NW And DL Could File BK As Early As Wed

Wed Sep 14, 2005 4:52 am

Courtesy: WCCO-TV

NWA Denies Bankruptcy Report, Begins Hire Process-Video Report Included

http://wcco.com/topstories/local_story_256145456.html
 
goingboeing
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RE: NW And DL Could File BK As Early As Wed

Wed Sep 14, 2005 4:55 am

Quoting AAgent (Reply 12):
Given today's harsh economic environment, a trip to bankruptcy court now appears more like hanging out inside the country club. The tragic flip side is that many of the stronger airlines are left outside in the real world to take the full force of this financial monsoon...a storm that is made more fierce by the artificial forces protecting competitors, competitors that market forces have already clearly demonstrated should no longer exist. Whatever happened to the capitalistic notion that "the strongest survive"? The system wasn't never intended to be a convalescent home for the weak.

AMEN BROTHER!!!
 
commavia
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RE: NW And DL Could File BK As Early As Wed

Wed Sep 14, 2005 4:56 am

Quoting AAgent (Reply 12):
Whatever happened to the capitalistic notion that "the strongest survive"?

Labor groups started giving money to political candidates.
 
jacobin777
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RE: NW And DL Could File BK As Early As Wed

Wed Sep 14, 2005 4:57 am

given that NW's stock is down a staggering 57% in the past 2 1/2 hours, I think bankruptcy might coming... Sad
"Up the Irons!"
 
keesje
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RE: NW And DL Could File BK As Early As Wed

Wed Sep 14, 2005 5:01 am

If its like the strike, NWAC might be taken a calculated step. UAL has become leaner & meaner while being protected & they´re the biggest competitor.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
goingboeing
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RE: NW And DL Could File BK As Early As Wed

Wed Sep 14, 2005 5:05 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 19):
If its like the strike, NWAC might be taken a calculated step. UAL has become leaner & meaner while being protected & they´re the biggest competitor

Now...imagine how much 'leaner and meaner' NWA might be had UAL not been afforded the "protection" of bankruptcy court? Imagine how AA would be a world beater had they not had to compete with a bankrupt US and UAL?

I'm a big SWA fan, but when they don't fly where I am going, then I'll book on AA - even if it is a few dollars more. It's the principle of the thing...I'll give my business to any company who finds a way to compete WITHOUT screwing so many people in the process via the bankruptcy courts.
 
ssides
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RE: NW And DL Could File BK As Early As Wed

Wed Sep 14, 2005 5:34 am

I agree ... isn't it time just to let one or two of these carriers completely die off? A reduction in capacity won't solve all the industry's problems, but it will be a start.
"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
 
panamair
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RE: NW And DL Could File BK As Early As Wed

Wed Sep 14, 2005 5:43 am

Quoting Goingboeing (Reply 20):
I'll give my business to any company who finds a way to compete WITHOUT screwing so many people in the process via the bankruptcy courts.

Well, I think DL should at least be given some credit for struggling so darn hard to stay out of BK court. When Grinstein was making the rounds with Congress to petition for pension relief, many officials point blank asked him "Why don't you just file for Ch.11?". Even today, when everyone is already betting that DL will file for CH. 11 in the next few days, DL comes up with a rather anti-climatic official statement "Bankruptcy remains a possibility": http://biz.yahoo.com/bizj/050913/1163482.html?.v=3
 
ltbewr
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RE: NW And DL Could File BK As Early As Wed

Wed Sep 14, 2005 5:50 am

How long will it be before Independence Air files too?
I know that some on these boards are drooling and having orgasims over the possibility of NW and DL going into Ch. 11 BK for their own selfish and foolish reasons.
Only bad things can come from more airlines filing for bankruptcy. You will end up with less competition and thus more expensive fares. No more '$99' fares on cross-country trips. How many companies under pressure to cut costs reduce travel even further than they have? Higher prices combined with economic weakness also means a wide range of people not flying, business or pleasure. Less service from food to baggage (if it can get less). Less frequency of service, especially from certain cities and regions that are already in decline. More "Jungle Jets" and fewer full size jets (737's on up). A lot fewer jobs in the USA for MX, and if they could get away with it, as to pilots, FA's, etc. More contract workers instead of direct employees, getting paid very cheap and with no benefits. How long will it be before AA, CO, and even (very remotely) WN will have to consider BK if competitive pressures, labor costs, continuing high fuel prices and if a decline in the USA economy?
 
Lumberton
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RE: NW And DL Could File BK As Early As Wed

Wed Sep 14, 2005 6:09 am

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 23):
How long will it be before AA, CO, and even (very remotely) WN will have to consider BK if competitive pressures, labor costs, continuing high fuel prices and if a decline in the USA economy?

Good question LTBEWR. IMO not long. Even WN will have to adjust their business model if most of their competition is operating under Ch 11 protection. IT seems as though NW and DL can't wait to dump their pension obligations and outsource. With AA and CO, it'll just take a little longer....
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
Pope
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RE: NW And DL Could File BK As Early As Wed

Wed Sep 14, 2005 6:17 am

Quoting Panamair (Reply 22):
Well, I think DL should at least be given some credit for struggling so darn hard to stay out of BK court.

Why. All they've done is ensured that the people that invested in them get even less money. They've destroyed countless billions of dollar of shareholder equity and probably prejudiced the position of many debt holders.

REPEAT AFTER ME - Companies should be run for the benefit of their investors.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
positiverate
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RE: NW And DL Could File BK As Early As Wed

Wed Sep 14, 2005 7:33 am

Unfortunately, my guess is that DL will file at 4:01PM tomorrow in NYC. As bankruptcy lawyer who is a friedn of mine tells me that the NYC venue has been favorable for Chapter 11 filings recently.
 
Ken777
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RE: NW And DL Could File BK As Early As Wed

Wed Sep 14, 2005 7:44 am

I have a feeling that NW looked at their costs - especially fuel - and decided that Ch 11 would be in their future at some point. A decision to go before Oct 17th (when BK laws stiffen) was made and NW defaulted on a payment simply to save the cash.

The real pressure is now going to be on AA as UA, NW, DL and US are going to have significantly cheaper retirement plans as well as shifting some medical costs onto the employees. I think AA is a toss up at some point and WN will be safe. It all depends on how astute the employees are in working with he companies.
 
flightopsguy
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RE: NW And DL Could File BK As Early As Wed

Wed Sep 14, 2005 7:47 am

One of the biz journals is reporting another NW payment to their pension fund due Thursday. If they miss the payment, a lien will be placed against their assets. BK can nullify the lien, but only if they file before the payment is due.

Apparently they missed a $18M payment to Mesaba on Monday, and another payment of $22M today on aircraft leases.
A300-330 BAC111/146/J31/41 B99/1900 CV580 B707-777 DC8/9/10 L188/1011 FH227/28/100 SB340 DO228 EMB2/170 CR2-900 SH330-60
 
warszawa
Posts: 549
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RE: NW And DL Could File BK As Early As Wed

Wed Sep 14, 2005 8:52 am

Quoting AAgent (Reply 12):
Given today's harsh economic environment, a trip to bankruptcy court now appears more like hanging out inside the country club. The tragic flip side is that many of the stronger airlines are left outside in the real world to take the full force of this financial monsoon...a storm that is made more fierce by the artificial forces protecting competitors, competitors that market forces have already clearly demonstrated should no longer exist. Whatever happened to the capitalistic notion that "the strongest survive"? The system wasn't never intended to be a convalescent home for the weak.

This isn't a judgment call on the weakened carriers, it's simply an observation. There have been some tremendous forces at work for the past several years, any of which could have caused the demise of a great air carrier. Is there any way to stop this cancerous spread and instead allow market forces to do their work?

Best Regards,
AAgent

Wow - VERY Well Said (Added you to RU list) - Fully agree!
Flying a plane is no diff. from riding a bicycle. Its just a lot harder to put baseball cards in the spokes. -'Airplane'
 
ckfred
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RE: NW And DL Could File BK As Early As Wed

Wed Sep 14, 2005 9:02 am

I heard Mike Boyd of the Boyd Group on CNBC yesterday. He said in 1979, when deregulation was enacted, that only 3 or 4 large carriers would be left in 5 years.

Based on his track record, he thinks all the major players will be around in 5 years, and no one will have made in the money in the interim.

Also, he feels there is no more capacity to cut from the system. With planes being 75% to 85% full, the problem isn't too great a supply of seats. It's that the airlines can't charge enough to cover their costs. And people will not accept higher fares, regardless of the price of oil.
 
Dougloid
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RE: NW And DL Could File BK As Early As Wed

Wed Sep 14, 2005 9:13 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 27):
I have a feeling that NW looked at their costs - especially fuel - and decided that Ch 11 would be in their future at some point. A decision to go before Oct 17th (when BK laws stiffen) was made and NW defaulted on a payment simply to save the cash.

Not entirely sure that large commercial enterprises like NW fared badly under the bankryuptcy reform bill.....not like consumers....I do not see any advantage there.


My guess? The payments that NW did not make to the pensions...the argument will be that they couldn't do it because that would have been a preference.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
teamregal
Posts: 110
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2005 5:57 am

RE: NW And DL Could File BK As Early As Wed

Wed Sep 14, 2005 9:24 am

Quoting AAgent (Reply 12):
Given today's harsh economic environment, a trip to bankruptcy court now appears more like hanging out inside the country club. The tragic flip side is that many of the stronger airlines are left outside in the real world to take the full force of this financial monsoon...a storm that is made more fierce by the artificial forces protecting competitors, competitors that market forces have already clearly demonstrated should no longer exist. Whatever happened to the capitalistic notion that "the strongest survive"? The system wasn't never intended to be a convalescent home for the weak.

This isn't a judgment call on the weakened carriers, it's simply an observation. There have been some tremendous forces at work for the past several years, any of which could have caused the demise of a great air carrier. Is there any way to stop this cancerous spread and instead allow market forces to do their work?

Spoken like a true economist.
You would dare to challenge me? .........Insanity!
 
KarlB737
Posts: 2635
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RE: NW And DL Could File BK As Early As Wed

Wed Sep 14, 2005 9:28 am

Quoting Flightopsguy (Reply 28):
One of the biz journals is reporting another NW payment to their pension fund due Thursday

Try $65 Million Due Thursday

Courtesy: KARE-TV

Video Report:

http://www.kare11.com/player.aspx?aid=18393&bw=
 
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lightsaber
Crew
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RE: NW And DL Could File BK As Early As Wed

Wed Sep 14, 2005 9:49 am

Quoting Flydl2atl (Reply 7):
I wonder if the powers that be (GE)

does it scare anyone else how much GE has.

Wow, Northwest has skipped a debt payment!
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/050913/northwest_mechanics.html?.v=12

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
aa777jr
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RE: NW And DL Could File BK As Early As Wed

Wed Sep 14, 2005 10:05 am

AA and CO are still holding strong!

Smile everyone.  Smile
A liberal is a man who is right most of the time, but he's right too soon.
 
CO757bos2iah
Posts: 78
Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2005 1:37 am

RE: NW And DL Could File BK As Early As Wed

Wed Sep 14, 2005 10:15 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 25):
REPEAT AFTER ME - Companies should be run for the benefit of their investors.

When you say investors you do mean the employees right ? In this day in age, it's sad that the stock of a companiy can actually RISE on the news of health insurance cuts save company X millions, or today airline Y announced it's slashing thousands of jobs to save x amount over a certain number of years.

While the financial well-being of a company is very important to investors of any company in any industry, too many companies screw their employees in order to make the shareholder happy. If you don't think so ask any retired GM employee who may lose their health benefits or pension at a time when they need them most. Gee Bob, thanks for 40 years of service, your health/pension plan has been terminated.

The true investors in many of these airlines are the employees. I think it's fair to say that most work at these companies because they love what they do and aviation is a passion. I know people hate to hear it ,but unless you work work in the industry I don't think many people believe that, given most people hate their jobs.

The investors who truly lose are the employees. Thats my 2 cents and I'm sticking to it.
Continental Airlines. We span the globe,because the world is your workplace.
 
AirRyan
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RE: NW And DL Could File BK As Early As Wed

Wed Sep 14, 2005 10:56 am

Quoting Ssides (Reply 21):
I agree ... isn't it time just to let one or two of these carriers completely die off? A reduction in capacity won't solve all the industry's problems, but it will be a start.

And "Sir" Branson is still planning on bringing over his aircraft from Europe for a new airline here in the US?  Yeah sure
 
September11
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RE: NW And DL Could File BK As Early As Wed

Wed Sep 14, 2005 10:59 am

I thought US airlines tend to declare bankruptcy on Saturdays/Sundays.
Airliners.net of the Future
 
comorin
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RE: NW And DL Could File BK As Early As Wed

Wed Sep 14, 2005 11:03 am

Quoting AAgent (Reply 12):

Thoughtfully put!

It's hard for us aviation enthusiasts to admit that what's good for UA, DL, US and NW is not fair for AA, WN and others.

This morning, on CNBC, Sir Richard (Branson, not Cliff) said that Ch 11 should be abolished as it hurts healthier carriers like Jet Blue, gives failing airlines a pass, so is unfair to healthier players.

When fuel prices go up, and you are still dealing with the capacity that UA, US and now DL and NW bring to the market, you are not allowing basic supply and demand to work.

If DL and NW are protected by the courts, the beneficiaries are the employees, creditors and suppliers. GE and B+A will probably be happy that there isn't a glut of aircraft as a result of closure. The employees get to keep their jobs, and suppliers are protected.

If DL and NW should close down, then remaining carriers become stronger. Their revenues improve as surplus capacity is removed, and they can afford their staff real careers.Competition among remaining carriers is then based on best vs cheapest service.

BKs also help workers at GE and Boeing. But it does hurt the worker at AA, WN and Jet Blue in the long term.

It may seem inhumane to support a point of view that will result in so many families being badly hurt, so I won't do it. I do hope all goes well for the dedicated people at NW and DL - it's no fault of theirs that 9/11, SARS, Iraq and Katrina happened.
 
AAgent
Posts: 540
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2001 11:41 pm

RE: NW And DL Could File BK As Early As Wed

Wed Sep 14, 2005 11:03 am

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 37):
And "Sir" Branson is still planning on bringing over his aircraft from Europe for a new airline here in the US?

Oh, great! That's all we need, a fresh boxer in an already crowded ring.  box 

Best Regards,
AAgent
War Eagle!
 
tcfc424
Posts: 444
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RE: NW And DL Could File BK As Early As Wed

Wed Sep 14, 2005 12:19 pm

A few questions...

BK court is just that...the airlines are requesting the protection from creditors. It is up to the court to determine if there is reason or not. Can the BK court make a judgement that would force either of these carriers into CH7? I mean, with DL, they have secured financing, but that covers a restructuring loan and additional debt. Could the BK court say "That's nice, but your assets don't cover the amount...you should either make it work or file CH7?"

Is it possible the BK court would reject either of these petitions (should they be filed?)

AA seems faily solid for the short term (economically speaking [less than 1 year]) but I am concerned about CO, as they are already seeking concessions (thus the failure of the FA union to ratify the CBA). If DL and NW file CH11, would CO be soon to follow? I know CO has very few assets, as most of their aircraft are leased...if they make a trip to BK court, would it be CH7?

I ask these questions because 1. I don't know and 2. because I am interviewing with CO on the 20th..........

Mike S. in AUS
 
HunUtazo
Posts: 229
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2005 9:17 am

RE: NW And DL Could File BK As Early As Wed

Wed Sep 14, 2005 12:59 pm

Quoting Ckfred (Reply 30):
Based on his track record, he thinks all the major players will be around in 5 years, and no one will have made in the money in the interim.

He's lying.
dude
 
AirRyan
Posts: 2398
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 9:57 am

RE: NW And DL Could File BK As Early As Wed

Wed Sep 14, 2005 1:05 pm

Quoting TCFC424 (Reply 41):
I ask these questions because 1. I don't know and 2. because I am interviewing with CO on the 20th..........

Mike S. in AUS

I think I'm in your same boat- I just interviewed with NW yesterday...

Honestly, I thought NW and CO were in about the same condition but I think the fuel costs have hurt NW more so. I thought NW was getting the labor concessions that they needed and I just didn't think they would have to file Ch.11 give they still have $1.7b in cash - they certainly are not missing these payments because they don't have the cash on hand.

So what kind of timeframes are we looking at here? Is DL in uncharted territory or something akin to what UA has/is going through? With NW's better financial situation could it be significantly shorter and or a better time in Ch.11 than either of these other two?
 
goldenargosy
Posts: 93
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2005 9:43 am

RE: NW And DL Could File BK As Early As Wed

Wed Sep 14, 2005 1:48 pm

So, if this news does play out and NW and DL go into bankruptcy, who will be the most financially fit within the SkyTeam alliance. I'm guessing that it is the AirFrance/KLM arm. But on another thought -- how does NW's failure impact the KLM operations, especially in AMS?

How will the other members of SkyTeam absorb these wounded U.S. carriers within their global system? Perhaps it is time for them to look for stronger U.S. members. Although the pickings are particularly poor at the moment.

It's amazing to see how these pioneering American giants are now the weak links in the global alliances. Alliances within which they helped found.

Perhaps Darwin did have it correct: Adapt or perish.
 
SESGDL
Posts: 2615
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 6:25 am

RE: NW And DL Could File BK As Early As Wed

Wed Sep 14, 2005 2:50 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 14):
Even if DL did merge with NWA the combined company would still be behind CO, AA and B6 in the NYC market. Also remember DL operated JFK-NRT and dropped the route, their "larger" presence in the NY market and feeder flights at JFK were not enough.

If DL/NW merged, they would become the 2nd largest carrier in the New York area. Currently DL is #3 in New York, after CO and AA, who's only slightly larger. I don't know where you get the idea that B6 is larger than DL in NYC. Currently, DL is the largest carrier at LGA, and the 3rd largest at JFK, only slightly, however.

Jeremy
 
bucky707
Posts: 954
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2000 2:01 am

RE: NW And DL Could File BK As Early As Wed

Wed Sep 14, 2005 8:42 pm

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 45):
Currently, DL is the largest carrier at LGA, and the 3rd largest at JFK, only slightly, however.

What is your source for that statement? I have never seen any statistics, but having flown in LGA a lot, it sure seems like USAir has many more flights than Delta.
 
bobnwa
Posts: 4472
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2000 12:10 am

RE: NW And DL Could File BK As Early As Wed

Wed Sep 14, 2005 8:59 pm

Quoting Bucky707 (Reply 46):
What is your source for that statement? I have never seen any statistics, but having flown in LGA a lot, it sure seems like USAir has many more flights than Delta.

Are you including the Delta shuttle terminal in that observation?
 
positiverate
Posts: 1543
Joined: Thu May 05, 2005 10:35 pm

RE: NW And DL Could File BK As Early As Wed

Wed Sep 14, 2005 9:52 pm

Quoting GoldenArgosy (Reply 44):
So, if this news does play out and NW and DL go into bankruptcy, who will be the most financially fit within the SkyTeam alliance. I'm guessing that it is the AirFrance/KLM arm.

Or CO perhaps?
 
DAL767400ER
Posts: 5084
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 2:47 am

RE: NW And DL Could File BK As Early As Wed

Wed Sep 14, 2005 9:52 pm

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 45):
Currently, DL is the largest carrier at LGA,

Not true. Statistics on the PANYNJ site show that AA is #1 at LGA, with US in #2 and DL in #3. Even including Song, Shuttle and Connection, DL would be behind US and their Shuttle and Express combined, and AA and Eagle combined.

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 45):
and the 3rd largest at JFK, only slightly, however.

By now DL/Song/Connection should have passed AA/Eagle, even if it is only by a small margin. JB is clearly #1 at JFK.
Note: All data based on pax served, not the number of flights.

[Edited 2005-09-14 14:53:05]