Delta777Jet
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B-757 Most Efficient Airplane At Lufthansa

Wed Sep 14, 2005 6:09 pm

The annual report of 2004 stated that the B-757-300 followed by the B-757-200 (even so they where Condor operated they are still part of the Lufthansa Company) where the most fuel efficient planes in fleet! How come the have all the new airbusses when the older Boeing`s (esp. The -200 where over 12 years old ) where more fuel efficient? What`s the point in buying a new airbus if an 15 year old B-757 is more fuel efficient esp. Nowadays with oil prices over 70$?
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Birdwatching
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RE: B-757 Most Efficient Airplane At Lufthansa

Wed Sep 14, 2005 6:14 pm

Maybe because LH's 757s are flying charter, and charter tends to have higher load factors than mainline. I'm pretty sure this is the reason.
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backfire
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RE: B-757 Most Efficient Airplane At Lufthansa

Wed Sep 14, 2005 6:16 pm

Maybe it's because they got shot of them to Russia which means someone else is paying for the fuel Big grin
 
planemannyc
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RE: B-757 Most Efficient Airplane At Lufthansa

Wed Sep 14, 2005 6:18 pm

How was this analysis done? Is it based on fuel burn per available seat? Perhaps Condor's layout allows for more rows of seats than Lufthansa would have done for its own aircraft (seat pitch) and therefore, has a higher available seating capacity. Just a thought, this is not scientific proof.

On a related note, I think that the 757 is the sleekest aircraft in the air today, and I am sad to see the production line come to an end.

Best,

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Udo
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RE: B-757 Most Efficient Airplane At Lufthansa

Wed Sep 14, 2005 6:20 pm

It simply depends on where, when and how an aircraft is used. Condor's operating profile is totally different from Lufthansa's. Both airlines operate independantly, therefore issues such as route structure, class differentiation, spares and cockpit commonality, crew training, cargo capability and many more have to be considered for evaluating the best performing aircraft.

Lufthansa once tested the B753 on domestic routes and found it unsuitable on its network. You can be sure they would use the aircraft if it made economic sense.


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Udo
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whitehatter
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RE: B-757 Most Efficient Airplane At Lufthansa

Wed Sep 14, 2005 6:22 pm

Quoting Birdwatching (Reply 1):
Maybe because LH's 757s are flying charter, and charter tends to have higher load factors than mainline. I'm pretty sure this is the reason.

That's almost it.

The 757 is like a truck in that respect. You only see its real ability when you load it up and make it work for its keep. The British charter 757s are extraordinarily efficient when packed to the rafters with all Y class and a full baggage load.

So if you are operating close to maximum weights then fuel used to shift each kilo of payload does not suffer as the 757 is overpowered when compared to many other aircraft.
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keesje
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RE: B-757 Most Efficient Airplane At Lufthansa

Wed Sep 14, 2005 6:38 pm

Condor leisure flights of 3-4 hours are a totally different opertion then hopping around in Germany (e.g A300) and Western Europe.

That being said the 753 appears to have very low seat mile costs
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RE: B-757 Most Efficient Airplane At Lufthansa

Wed Sep 14, 2005 8:33 pm

I'm not sure what the point of the thread is, but LH/Condor should be complemented for putting the B757 to good use.
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Orion737
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RE: B-757 Most Efficient Airplane At Lufthansa

Wed Sep 14, 2005 8:40 pm

The 753 is an excellent performer and particularly suited to the European IT market. I only wish other charter operators in the UK had realised the potential of this aircraft.

Packed in a high density layout, the 753 can seat 280 pax.
 
eha
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RE: B-757 Most Efficient Airplane At Lufthansa

Wed Sep 14, 2005 8:48 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 6):

That being said the 753 appears to have very low seat mile costs

You wonder why only 55 of them have ordered worldwide...A whopping 5% of all 757 ordered.

E.
 
whitehatter
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RE: B-757 Most Efficient Airplane At Lufthansa

Wed Sep 14, 2005 9:34 pm

Quoting Orion737 (Reply 8):
The 753 is an excellent performer and particularly suited to the European IT market. I only wish other charter operators in the UK had realised the potential of this aircraft.

We had this debate here a while back and you are absolutely correct except for one point.

The 757 was developed by Boeing with a wing that would be future-proof and allow for the 753 to be launched. However Boeing launched the 753 far too late in the product cycle. If they had offered it much earlier to the charter operators then you may have seen Britannia liveried 753s plus other operators.

You cannot sell an airliner to an airline twice (in this context). Many carriers already had the 752 fleets in place, and adding a couple of these aircraft causes all sorts of scheduling issues as well as crewing issues (extra cabin crew) when there is an increase in the number of passengers. So the 753 was only taken up by JMC, Arkia and Condor who chose to overcome those issues.

It really is a shame as they are excellent haulers on the IT routes. Maybe BY would have bought a fleet of them instead of the 752, or TCX, or.....who knows.
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codeshare
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RE: B-757 Most Efficient Airplane At Lufthansa

Wed Sep 14, 2005 9:38 pm

This is exactly happening with Fischer Air Polska's two 757s. The're always 200+ full doing charter routes.
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Thorben
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RE: B-757 Most Efficient Airplane At Lufthansa

Wed Sep 14, 2005 9:48 pm

They are probably most fuel efficient per single Passenger, because the Passenger has the least space in it. If all LH planes had this amount of density in it, then the B753 would not be the most fuel-efficient, the A343 with nine abreast and 71cm distance (28in, for the American friends) between the rows would probably be the most fuel efficient.  crowded 
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Alitalia744
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RE: B-757 Most Efficient Airplane At Lufthansa

Wed Sep 14, 2005 9:48 pm

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 10):
So the 753 was only taken up by JMC, Arkia and Condor who chose to overcome those issues.

Are you also forgetting CO, NW and Icelandair?
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konrad
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RE: B-757 Most Efficient Airplane At Lufthansa

Thu Sep 15, 2005 12:09 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 12):
the A343 with nine abreast and 71cm distance (28in, for the American friends) between the rows would probably be the most fuel efficient.

The downside of this A343 configuration being that it would require a 23000 feet runway (7000m, for the European friends), preferably one going downhill, to make the thing leave the ground...
 
Lindy
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RE: B-757 Most Efficient Airplane At Lufthansa

Thu Sep 15, 2005 12:17 am

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 13):
Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 10):
So the 753 was only taken up by JMC, Arkia and Condor who chose to overcome those issues.

Are you also forgetting CO, NW and Icelandair?

And also ATA.

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ScottB
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RE: B-757 Most Efficient Airplane At Lufthansa

Thu Sep 15, 2005 2:12 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 12):
They are probably most fuel efficient per single Passenger, because the Passenger has the least space in it. If all LH planes had this amount of density in it, then the B753 would not be the most fuel-efficient, the A343 with nine abreast and 71cm distance (28in, for the American friends) between the rows would probably be the most fuel efficient.

SeatGuru.com claims that the economy-class seat width on LH's A340-600, at 8-across, is 17 inches. Northwest's 757-300 offers seats that are 17.2" wide in the standard six-across configuration. Your assertion that the A340 would offer similar comfort when configured 9-abreast is therefore specious.

Quoting Eha (Reply 9):
You wonder why only 55 of them have ordered worldwide...A whopping 5% of all 757 ordered.

The 757-300 came along very late in the history of the type, and I think it took quite a while for the airlines to pick up on what a great moneymaker the 757-300 could be for its operators. The 757-200 sold somewhat slowly in its first few years as well. The travails of most of the U.S. airlines and decreased demand globally in 2001-2003 were the end for the 757; I'm sure there are quite a few operators today who are wishing Boeing hadn't been forced to shut down the 757 line.
 
whitehatter
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RE: B-757 Most Efficient Airplane At Lufthansa

Thu Sep 15, 2005 2:15 am

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 13):

Are you also forgetting CO, NW and Icelandair?

I was unaware they were European IT charter airlines. Does this mean we will see Northwest 753s operating BHX-IBZ then?
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ikramerica
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RE: B-757 Most Efficient Airplane At Lufthansa

Thu Sep 15, 2005 2:21 am

If only they would dump those 757s and upgrade them to A32Xs...  Wink
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PanAm747
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RE: B-757 Most Efficient Airplane At Lufthansa

Thu Sep 15, 2005 2:24 am

Also, remember, the 757 is RARELY, if ever, cargo or passenger restricted. HP's 757 fleet is the only plane that has no worries about taking off at PHX or LAS in the summer.
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whitehatter
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RE: B-757 Most Efficient Airplane At Lufthansa

Thu Sep 15, 2005 2:26 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 18):
If only they would dump those 757s and upgrade them to A32Xs...

they have done, unfortunately. Some have been sold on to a Russian carrier.
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RE: B-757 Most Efficient Airplane At Lufthansa

Thu Sep 15, 2005 2:31 am

Quoting Lindy (Reply 15):
And also ATA.

For now. The transfer of TZ's 753 fleet makes CO the largest operator, as such.
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ourboeing
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RE: B-757 Most Efficient Airplane At Lufthansa

Thu Sep 15, 2005 6:15 am

Love that bird..

Cheers..

OURBOEING
 
Thorben
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RE: B-757 Most Efficient Airplane At Lufthansa

Thu Sep 15, 2005 6:35 am

Quoting ScottB (Reply 16):
SeatGuru.com claims that the economy-class seat width on LH's A340-600, at 8-across, is 17 inches. Northwest's 757-300 offers seats that are 17.2" wide in the standard six-across configuration. Your assertion that the A340 would offer similar comfort when configured 9-abreast is therefore specious.

17 inches is 43 cm, LH A340s do have 47.5 cm wide seats in the economy class. Take this calculation: 47.5cm x 8 is 380cm. Divide that by 9 and you're at 42.2 cm. Difference is .8cm, which is less than 1/3 of an inch.

Quoting Konrad (Reply 14):
The downside of this A343 configuration being that it would require a 23000 feet runway (7000m, for the European friends), preferably one going downhill, to make the thing leave the ground...

In Germany, everything is going downhill.
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primetimeDC9
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RE: B-757 Most Efficient Airplane At Lufthansa

Thu Sep 15, 2005 8:14 am

the 757 and A320 are the most fuel efficient in the sky, i don't know which is better, i know the 757 is more fuel efficient than the 321
 
B744F
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RE: B-757 Most Efficient Airplane At Lufthansa

Thu Sep 15, 2005 9:15 am

I love the power of the 757's engines. It's too bad it never really caught on and was overshadowed by the 767, 747, 737, Airbus series, etc. In America it seems like UPS is the biggest operator of those fine aircraft
 
atmx2000
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RE: B-757 Most Efficient Airplane At Lufthansa

Thu Sep 15, 2005 9:27 am

Quoting B744F (Reply 25):
I love the power of the 757's engines. It's too bad it never really caught on and was overshadowed by the 767, 747, 737, Airbus series, etc. In America it seems like UPS is the biggest operator of those fine aircraft

Never caught on? 1049 757s have been delivered. Now it has been overshadowed by the sexier widebodies, but it has sold more units than any widebody has for the time it has been on the market.
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HT
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RE: B-757 Most Efficient Airplane At Lufthansa

Thu Sep 15, 2005 1:52 pm

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 20):
Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 18):
If only they would dump those 757s and upgrade them to A32Xs...

they have done, unfortunately. Some have been sold on to a Russian carrier.

For DE charter op´s the B752 and B753 proved to be too big to fill on routes from some of the "smaller" german airports.
When DE introduced the A320, it set up a (somwhat independent) sub-division called "Condor Berlin", which was also painted onto the a/c. Being a "new" company within the existing company, AFAIK "Condor Berlin" was able to hire its staff at lower wages whic also contributed to the success of the combination of the A320 and DE.
During that time the german charter market saw heavy (and still rising) competition mainly by the expanding AB which led to serious overcapacity. DE was no longer able to fill its planes (especially the bigger ones) and leasing them out seasonally was only a short term solution. Like the reductions in capacity at LT, DE also was forced to reduce its capacity - relying more on the A320 )was a smart move IMO, as DE´s A320 are among the best I´ve ever experienced in the european charter market). That overcapacity was also one reason why YP went bankrupt.
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Shenzhen
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RE: B-757 Most Efficient Airplane At Lufthansa

Thu Sep 15, 2005 2:46 pm

Quoting Thorben (Reply 23):
17 inches is 43 cm, LH A340s do have 47.5 cm wide seats in the economy class. Take this calculation: 47.5cm x 8 is 380cm. Divide that by 9 and you're at 42.2 cm. Difference is .8cm, which is less than 1/3 of an inch.

You probably forgot an armrest.
 
Udo
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RE: B-757 Most Efficient Airplane At Lufthansa

Thu Sep 15, 2005 3:14 pm

Quoting PrimetimeDC9 (Reply 24):
i know the 757 is more fuel efficient than the 321

Not necessarily. Depends on the route, layout, loads. The B757 is much heavier, never forget.


Regards
Udo
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Thorben
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RE: B-757 Most Efficient Airplane At Lufthansa

Thu Sep 15, 2005 7:29 pm

Quoting Shenzhen (Reply 28):
You probably forgot an armrest.

Should be included.
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godbless
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RE: B-757 Most Efficient Airplane At Lufthansa

Thu Sep 15, 2005 7:39 pm

So soon the 753 should be even more fuel efficient, since they will be reconfigured from 252 to 276 seats...

Max
 
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lightsaber
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RE: B-757 Most Efficient Airplane At Lufthansa

Thu Sep 15, 2005 9:15 pm

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 5):
You only see its real ability when you load it up and make it work for its keep.

True. Unless you can fill up a 757, its not making money.

Quoting Eha (Reply 9):
You wonder why only 55 of them have ordered worldwide...A whopping 5% of all 757 ordered.

Don't forget, the 753 was launched during an airline downturn. No one buys larger aircraft when the market is expected to dip.

Damn, those Pratt's are efficient!  bigthumbsup 
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vs. RR RB211(cruise)=0.607**

Although it always amazes me how these two engines can be within 30 lbm (~14 kg) even though their designs are so different.

* http://www.alair.com/Commercial/pw2000.html
** http://www.alair.com/Commercial/rb535.html

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