carmenlu15
Posts: 4517
Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2004 1:24 am

"Why You Should Fly The Big Airlines"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 6:14 am

Interesting read (and a harsh criticism of LCC's) by Joel Widzer, travel columnist:

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/9342052/

Quote:
The future of American air transportation rides in the cabins of the nation’s big airlines. For more than 70 years, airlines like American Airlines, Delta Air Lines, and United Airlines have proudly served the interests of American travelers. Along the way, they have helped businesses earn trillions of dollars, worked with the government to secure our borders, and given travelers a way to explore the wonders of the world.

And what have they gotten in return? Travelers have taken advantage of airlines’ willingness to maintain competitive fares and repaid it with fleeting loyalty and indifference. At the same time, selfish labor unions have drained the big airlines’ coffers and predatory upstart carriers have poached their routes.

[...]

But when it comes to air travel, consumers toss loyalty aside in search of a better deal. I call this the “Southwest Effect” — the naive idea that the best deals will be found on Southwest Airlines, JetBlue, and other low-budget carriers, as well as on third-party Web sites. Not only do these better deals not exist, but this greedy strategy is wreaking havoc with the U.S. air travel industry.

In my opinion, it’s un-American.

Whenever travelers fly a low-cost carrier, they disrespect the contributions that the major carriers have made to the United States of America. Failing to repay the debt of gratitude we owe the major U.S. airlines is unpatriotic.

Opinions?
Don't expect to see me around that much (if at all) -- the contact link should still work, though.
 
johnboy
Posts: 2557
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 1999 9:09 pm

RE: "Why You Should Fly The Big Airlines"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 6:18 am

What next? When you don't fly the legacy carriers you're supporting terrorism?
 
777Purser
Posts: 215
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 4:47 pm

RE: "Why You Should Fly The Big Airlines"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 6:25 am

Everything will fall into place in time. LCC's will start to encounter the same problems as the Legacies as they grow larger, overcapacity will go away along one way or another and low ticket prices that do not begin to cover operational costs will dissapear...eventualy...
 
legacy135
Posts: 966
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 11:06 pm

RE: "Why You Should Fly The Big Airlines"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 6:26 am

Unfortunately this is not only a behavior of American consumers, it's also European and rest of the world behavior. The thing is everybody thinks only of it's own:
Customers go to travelagencies and ask for the cheapest possible flight. Then, when an accident happens, I remember this Flash Air crash in Egypt, Christmas one year ago, they start to cry and complain how it could have happened. Before? Nobody cares.
People complain in newspapers and in the Tv about the horrible working conditions with some LCC. Who makes this possible? The ones traveling by exactly those LCC, otherwise there was no need to employ that many people that bad.
If you offer one of those customers of the LCC for example a steak for .99$ they probably refuse to eat it, as they think it can't be possible to serve good meat for such a low price. But then, going to lease aircrafts for millions and millions of dollars, using hundereds of employees to fly them, burning today's expensive gas and finally selling tickets for 20 $ or Euros (none of them is better) they widely agree, that this is the absolute super deal. They never start to remember that somewhat with this product could be wrong.

I agree, that the behavior of those LCC travelers is unloyal, unsocial and finally not a very patriotic act.
 
BDKLEZ
Posts: 1687
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 11:57 am

RE: "Why You Should Fly The Big Airlines"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 6:26 am

Dear Mr Joel

Quoting Carmenlu15 (Thread starter):
The future of American air transportation rides in the cabins of the nation’s big airlines

I refer you to the current forum regarding DL and CHP11 bankruptcy.

Quoting Carmenlu15 (Thread starter):
But when it comes to air travel, consumers toss loyalty aside in search of a better deal

Because that's what customers do, it's their right. If they can get the same for less then why not...???

Quoting Carmenlu15 (Thread starter):
this greedy strategy is wreaking havoc with the U.S. air travel industry.

Sound business practices and canny use of clever marketing gimmicks have shown the shysters (read legacy carriers) how to really do business.

Quoting Carmenlu15 (Thread starter):
In my opinion, it’s un-American

Typical American nonsense. Dare it be said that a business wants to be profitable and make some hard earned money and isn't really interested in the greater good of every single American citizen. How bloody selfish and uncivilised of anyone who suggest it's un-American!!

Quoting Carmenlu15 (Thread starter):
Whenever travelers fly a low-cost carrier, they disrespect the contributions that the major carriers have made to the United States of America.

No they don't! See the section above re getting the same for less!
Passengers are consumers and as such are very fickle but very clever.

For the benefit of the greater LCC good (of which I am a part), I have submitted a request to the US Senate for the name of this journo twit to be changed by deed-poll to Mr Joel W@*ker! I await their response....

 irked   irked   irked 
Trespassers will be shot; survivors will be shot again!
 
Scorpio
Posts: 4794
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2001 3:48 am

RE: "Why You Should Fly The Big Airlines"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 6:28 am

Quoting Carmenlu15 (Thread starter):
In my opinion, it’s un-American.

Whenever travelers fly a low-cost carrier, they disrespect the contributions that the major carriers have made to the United States of America. Failing to repay the debt of gratitude we owe the major U.S. airlines is unpatriotic.

What the??? Un-American??? Unpatriotic? What has this guy been smoking? Will he also say the same about rail travel? After all, the railroads DID have a big part in building America. Want to know about 'un-American'? How about bitching when one free enterprise beats another free enterprise, and demanding some sort of self-imposed protectionism by the travelers? Isn't THAT un-American?
 
BHXFAOTIPYYC
Posts: 1442
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 5:47 am

RE: "Why You Should Fly The Big Airlines"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 6:34 am

Err, right. So what would you call it when they stopped paying travel agents commissions? What happened to employees of the 30% of travel agencies in America that closed in the last 10 years? Travel agents only got paid when they SOLD something. Every travel agent was the airlines sales force. Along comes the Internet, and within 5 years it's "screw travel agents". Thanks for 50 years of partnership, but now take a hike. Right now AA, UA, UA pay me the same commission as B6 and WN - namely nothing, so do I have any interest if DL goes bust? No. Wonder what Joel Wizder has to say about that?
Breakfast in BHX, lunch in FAO, dinner in TIP, baggage in YYC.
 
legacy135
Posts: 966
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 11:06 pm

RE: "Why You Should Fly The Big Airlines"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 6:37 am

Quoting 777PURSER (Reply 2):
Everything will fall into place in time. LCC's will start to encounter the same problems as the Legacies as they grow larger, overcapacity will go away along one way or another and low ticket prices that do not begin to cover operational costs will disappear...eventualy...

Agree 100% as the LCC normally start up on routes with high demand only. But their business is based on growing and they will come to the point where they will need to fly routes or at times, they won't fill the planes 80% or more. And then we shall see how history repeats....
 
satx
Posts: 2771
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2005 7:26 am

RE: "Why You Should Fly The Big Airlines"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 6:54 am

Articles like this only push me that much farther away from the misguided American Legacy carriers that apparently need our conservative news media to lay a guilt trip on us in order to keep our business.

Quoting Carmenlu15 (Thread starter):
the naive idea that the best deals will be found on Southwest Airlines, JetBlue, and other low-budget carriers

I find the best 'deal' includes more than just the absolute lowest fare. Why worry about a mere $15-$75 when it gets me more legroom, a non-stop flight, better customer service, a better website, fewer restrictions, newer planes, a better safety record, and more refreshment options? And if the fare is ever a walk-up, well, you better hope there's an LCC that flies that route.

Quoting Legacy135 (Reply 3):
The thing is everybody thinks only of it's own

Spoken like someone who knows all about it.
Open Season on Consumer Protections is Just Around the Corner...
 
antares
Posts: 1367
Joined: Fri Jun 18, 2004 4:49 pm

RE: "Why You Should Fly The Big Airlines"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 7:01 am

A very sad but in a way funny article.

Let me see. The world's largest airline by passengers uplifted has been Southwest sinceI think May. And helped by BA's disastrous inability to crisis manage two years in a row at Heathrow, Ryanair carried more passengers than they did.

Among the airlines that have never had a fatal accident so far are Southwest, Ryanair, easyJet and JetBlue.

Among the airlines that can actually pay their bills, and pay their employees decent wages, and not cheat them out of their entitlements or pensions and the like, are Southwest, Ryanair, easyJet and JetBlue, joined by such well managed and in some cases very profitable carriers as Singapore Airlines, Cathay Pacific, Emirates and Qantas.

I am aware that some of these carriers did not have the generous schemes or arrangements that dead and dying legacies had, but surprise, those schemes aren't going to pay ever, and low paid people on Southwest are retiring multi-millionaires because they shrewedly invested in their own stock.

The service standards of the US majors are rubbish and far worse than I have experienced last year on JetBlue and some years ago on Southwest.

Ryanair however is by overwhelming reputation as expressed on this forum and elsewhere a mean spirited, hideous operation, perfectly aligned with the angst of customers who are into masochism...or something like that. At least there is significant choice in the US and European markets, so you pay your money and take the consequences.

The bitter and twisted person who wrote the story should be given hugs and kisses by his mummy and sent to bed with a hot chocolate in the hope that he will wake up wiser and happier.

Antares
 
cgnnrw
Posts: 1045
Joined: Tue May 17, 2005 3:11 am

RE: "Why You Should Fly The Big Airlines"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 7:03 am

I agree with all those here that disagree with this guy.....I read his statement several times and I can only laugh. Even the most conservative, patriotic, American ain't gonna spend $50-100 more to travel a legacy carrier when there is a LCC offering it for this much less....Americans look at their wallot first. THAT'S the American Way.
A330 man.
 
crogalski
Posts: 477
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 8:09 am

RE: "Why You Should Fly The Big Airlines"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 7:10 am

Does he mention how some of the legacy carriers treated their customers like complete s##t, and how the LCC actually took care of their customers?

Sounds like this guy is an unamerican
A319 A320 A321 A330 B717 B727 B737 B747 B757 B767 CRJ200 CRJ700 CRJ900 DC9 E145 E190 MD88 Q400 | AA AB B6 CO DL EI FL NK
 
B744F
Posts: 2927
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2006 4:52 pm

RE: "Why You Should Fly The Big Airlines"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 7:13 am

Quoting Carmenlu15 (Thread starter):
At the same time, selfish labor unions have drained the big airlines’ coffers

Yes it's those damn employees again! Pay no attention to the management behind the curtain who get outrageous salaries and bonuses for making horrible decisions

Quoting Carmenlu15 (Thread starter):
and predatory upstart carriers have poached their routes.

Damn capitalism!!
 
vv701
Posts: 5773
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 10:54 am

RE: "Why You Should Fly The Big Airlines"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 7:22 am

Quoting Antares (Reply 9):
helped by BA's disastrous inability to crisis manage two years in a row at Heathrow, Ryanair carried more passengers than they did

'Helped by BA's disastrous inability to crisis manage' (to quote Antares) they (BA) remain the world's most profitable airline. Bet that's a crisis the likes of Delta and Northwest would like as they enter Chapter 11.
 
thelowfarehero
Posts: 139
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2005 3:55 am

RE: "Why You Should Fly The Big Airlines"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 7:23 am

What a load of sh*t. Where does this guy get the audacity to come up with such trash.


the “Southwest Effect” — the naive idea that the best deals will be found on Southwest Airlines, JetBlue, and other low-budget carriers, as well as on third-party Web sites. Not only do these better deals not exist...........

yeah, well if they dont exist how come AA charges $315.40 roundtrip from LAX to chicago, and WN charges $256.00 roundtrip...so better deals can't be found on LCC's?


In my opinion, it’s un-American.

can somebody dress this guy up like bin laden and drop him in the middle of a military firing exercise


Whenever travelers fly a low-cost carrier, they disrespect the contributions that the major carriers have made to the United States of America. Failing to repay the debt of gratitude we owe the major U.S. airlines is unpatriotic.

Well I bought a vehicle other than a Ford, GM, or Chrysler...is that disrespectful to they're contributions, and unpatriotic as well?
I HAATE AA!
 
nwafflyer
Posts: 888
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2004 9:29 am

RE: "Why You Should Fly The Big Airlines"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 7:35 am

Those of us who are business travellers depend on the legacy carriers - if I am going from point A to point B on business, I MUST get there, and I need a carrier that will book me on another carrier, provide bus service, basically do what is needed to get me to my destination. I cannot take advantage of discount/LCC airlines unless I travel at least one day in advance, and even then, I still need assurance that I will get to my destination. Example:

last winter, I was ticketed on NWA FNT - MYR. The FNT flight was late, because of snow. I rebooked myself at FNT from DTW to CAE. Made it to DTW in time for the CAE flight (late Pinnacle flight), and that flight was cancelled due to crew time. I then re-booked DTW to CHS, and took that flight to Charleston. Yes, I arrived late, yes, I was tired after the drive, however, I was on site the next morning. With an LCC carrier, that kind of option is not available
 
alphascan
Posts: 795
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 12:04 am

RE: "Why You Should Fly The Big Airlines"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 7:47 am

Joel Who? He has the logic of a twelve year old and has obviously never been in business.

If anything is anti-American its fighting against capitalist truths.

Just think what the American automobile industry would be selling today if in the '70s and '80s American auto buyers remained loyal to the Big Three who were selling inefficent and poorly manufactured products.

Competition forced the Big Three to improve efficentcy and quality in order to stay in business. The same holds true for the legacies.
"To he who only has a hammer in his toolbelt, every problem looks like a nail."
 
cgnnrw
Posts: 1045
Joined: Tue May 17, 2005 3:11 am

RE: "Why You Should Fly The Big Airlines"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 7:48 am

Quoting Nwafflyer (Reply 15):
Those of us who are business travellers depend on the legacy carriers - if I am going from point A to point B on business, I MUST get there, and I need a carrier that will book me on another carrier, provide bus service, basically do what is needed to get me to my destination. I cannot take advantage of discount/LCC airlines unless I travel at least one day in advance, and even then, I still need assurance that I will get to my destination. Example:

last winter, I was ticketed on NWA FNT - MYR. The FNT flight was late, because of snow. I rebooked myself at FNT from DTW to CAE. Made it to DTW in time for the CAE flight (late Pinnacle flight), and that flight was cancelled due to crew time. I then re-booked DTW to CHS, and took that flight to Charleston. Yes, I arrived late, yes, I was tired after the drive, however, I was on site the next morning. With an LCC carrier, that kind of option is not available

It isn't about Legacy vs LCC...I fly both types. Sometimes I choose a Legacy for the same reasons you do...reliability, perks, etc and sometimes I choose a LCC because they simply are the best fare.... What the author implying is Americans have a patriotic duty to fly Legacy carries....that's simply absurd. The investors and employees for LCCs are what then....subversive???

Now when I worked for US Dept of State in the 90s, any employee who travelled overseas had to fly as far as possible on a US carrier. The reason? Taxpayers money should not go to a foreign airline....I can agree with that but what the author gives as reasons to fly Legacy carriers is way out of touch with reality.
A330 man.
 
nwafflyer
Posts: 888
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2004 9:29 am

RE: "Why You Should Fly The Big Airlines"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 7:56 am

And yes, I have to absolutely agree with cgnnrw -- if I am flying (with time to spare) to a client, obviously I book on a LCC - same with vacation travel -- however, in no way do I agree that it is 'patriotic' to fly on a legacy -- of course, by the same token, nor do I agree that the New Orleans Katrina disaster is equivalent to the SE Asia tsunami from Christmas. Let's get our logic straight here
 
BDKLEZ
Posts: 1687
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 11:57 am

RE: "Why You Should Fly The Big Airlines"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 7:58 am

It's either his own site, or someone fancies him but check out...

http://jetready.com/

This is what he says on the webite above....

"First things first: Responsibility for the quality of your travels starts with you. Know what to expect from your airline, hotel, cruise line, tour operator or rental-car company, and you won’t be caught in a lot of misunderstandings. You’ll also learn where the benefits and perks lie."

...but then he says.....

Quoting Carmenlu15 (Thread starter):
Travelers have taken advantage of airlines’ willingness to maintain competitive fares and repaid it with fleeting loyalty and indifference.

.....I'm confused. what does he want me (the consumer) to do then?

Quoting Carmenlu15 (Thread starter):
In my opinion, it’s un-American.

...and the following is perfectly American then, is it? I don't mind the theory because after a disaster continued economic investment is key to sustaining viable business efforts. It's the title that upsets me, "Profit when they're not". I wonder how Joel if I would use such a statement regarding the regions of Southern USA recently almost completely destroyed by hurricane Katrina.

"Profit when they’re not. Opportunities are created by what I call “situational uncertainty.” This occurs when a country or region experiences a natural disaster, terrorist activity, political upheaval or economic depression. Often, the unexpected situation can make the location more desirable. After an attack on German buses in Luxor Egypt, for example, security forces were on high alert with few tourists vying for highly discounted $50 rooms in five-star luxury hotels overlooking the Nile. When a rare tsunami hit the Asian Pacific region, thousands of hotel rooms went empty, depressing prices and the local workforce. Supportive travelers got both a great deal and also helped locals keep their jobs and feed their families by pumping money into the local economy."

A few more quotes, and as far as I can see Joel is not the sort of guy who chooses to fly Legacy because he prefers it, but more the sort of guy who expects to fly Legacy for the cost of flying LCC but wants all the trimmings and extras at the same time and without paying for them. ie greedy, selfish, self-centred, self-opinionated....you get my drift!!

"The best time to ask for an upgrade is in the early afternoon on the day you arrive--typically before business travelers check in and snap them up."

"Cultivate lead gate agents, who have the most say over upgrades. When seeking a better seat, stay within sight of the podium so as not to be forgotten."

"Joel Widzer, Psy.D. Is Available for Interviews & Speaking Engagements"
..........no thank you very much................

The above quotes are taken from the website mentioned.
Trespassers will be shot; survivors will be shot again!
 
UAL-Fan
Posts: 342
Joined: Thu Dec 09, 1999 1:36 pm

RE: "Why You Should Fly The Big Airlines"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 8:10 am

This article really made me laugh. How can one have any loyalty to a Company that screws you over from the time you book your reservation to the time you land back on your home turf again (usually hungry and late)?
 
Espion007
Posts: 1653
Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 9:29 am

RE: "Why You Should Fly The Big Airlines"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 8:11 am

I dont care what airline i travel as long as its the cheapest.

Signed,

95% of the flying public.
Snakes on a Plane!
 
ZRH
Posts: 4371
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 1999 11:32 pm

RE: "Why You Should Fly The Big Airlines"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 8:17 am

This is ridiculous. Aviation is business and has nothing to do with patriotism or gratitude. Either an airline works or it does not!
 
travelin man
Posts: 3198
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2000 10:04 am

RE: "Why You Should Fly The Big Airlines"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 8:27 am

I seriously thought the article was a tongue-in-cheek joke. But then I realized he was serious. And that absolutely astounds me. I'm not going to refute his statements point by point (which could be done if I had a free day off work), but needless to say, based on this article, this guy does not understand the following subjects:
- Finance
- Economics
- The Airline Industry
- Business
- History
- Civics
- Psychology
- Human Behaviour
- Labor Relations
- Patriotism
- Truthfulness

Other than all of those subjects, he is spot on with his assessment.
 
BDKLEZ
Posts: 1687
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 11:57 am

RE: "Why You Should Fly The Big Airlines"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 8:32 am

It's no secret as it was posted on the website, but if you fancy educating this sick and sad individual, then please feel free to do so at.....

jwidzer@cox.net

...I know I'll be saying a few words!!

 taekwondo   taekwondo   taekwondo 
Trespassers will be shot; survivors will be shot again!
 
hz747300
Posts: 1908
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 11:38 pm

RE: "Why You Should Fly The Big Airlines"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 8:44 am

The author of this piece is a socialist, and would prefer that everyone be forced to endure high prices and less service, rathern than letting you, the individual, decide what is best for you. He hides his undertone socialist in the codes of patriotism, but his agenda is clear.

It's dangerous thinking, and he is certainly entitled to believe and publish it. However, I think it is more un-American to not make best purchase for your situation.

Lastly, I'd add that Southwest has been around as long as any airline and as contributed as much as anyone to air travel in the United States. Their charitable contributions are well-documented, and their commitment to safe, efficient, and affordable air travel is second to none. Slandering a company such as Southwest, which I believe has yet to lay anyone off, is absolutely un-American.
Keep on truckin'...
 
DETA737
Posts: 617
Joined: Sat Oct 07, 2000 3:47 am

RE: "Why You Should Fly The Big Airlines"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 8:45 am

What a bunch of bull. LCCs open up the market to people who often wouldn't have flown before. For instance if it had not been for the likes of Easyjet, Vueling, JetStar, etc I wouldn't have flown as much as I did when I visited Europe or Australia. I probably would have stayed put in one city and not travelled around as much.

If I were to fly based on an airline's service to the American public over the years would support TWA and Pan Am if they were still around but United? They flew to two international destinations (Toronto and Vancouver) before deregulation hardly what I call a pioneer. Same goes for American, Delta, US Airways and Continental.
 
prebennorholm
Posts: 6419
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2000 6:25 am

RE: "Why You Should Fly The Big Airlines"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 8:50 am

Whining, whining, whining...

Any business is a question about "value for money".

Fifty years ago 80% of air travel was business travel. Today 80% of air travel is leisure related. Still some airlines look at 80% of their business potential as sort of gap filler - something which can just be manipulated into filling some empty seats.

"Business travel" has also changed. In older days it was managers attending high level business meetings and such. They attend video conferences today. Business travel today is ordinary hard working people going to work, training courses and such. They go on tickets bought on contracts signed by a price conscious procurement manager.

Airlines will learn to please the needs of leisure travel - value for money on an ordinary household budget. Or they will run a very small niche business. Or not run at all.

No industry can rely upon patriotism for survival. If that had been the case, then Chrysler would have been the largest US car manufacturer, and it wouldn't have been a German company.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
BDKLEZ
Posts: 1687
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 11:57 am

RE: "Why You Should Fly The Big Airlines"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 8:53 am

Quoting Prebennorholm (Reply 27):
Fifty years ago 80% of air travel was business travel. Today 80% of air travel is leisure related. Still some airlines look at 80% of their business potential as sort of gap filler - something which can just be manipulated into filling some empty seats.

I can only speak for my own company, but in terms of business travel, check out the following link....

http://www.easyjet.com/EN/News/business_traveller.html

I suppose this Joel twit would neither agree or approve...
Trespassers will be shot; survivors will be shot again!
 
TUNisia
Posts: 1515
Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2004 3:24 am

RE: "Why You Should Fly The Big Airlines"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 8:57 am

I don't really agree with the logic behind this article. People have a free will and will exercise their rights accordingly, if it makes sense or not.

I will only fly legacy airlines simply because their product is better and they have INTL routes. If the legacy carriers are gone then who will be left to take us to those far off overseas destinations that some people can only read about?
Someday the sun will shine down on me in some faraway place - Mahalia Jackson
 
satx
Posts: 2771
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2005 7:26 am

RE: "Why You Should Fly The Big Airlines"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 9:04 am

I'm going to write MSNBC and ask them why they are letting this guy have a voice.



I thought he could no older than 15 years old with his silly commentary. Oh well.

Quote:
Joel WidzerJoel Widzer

Joel Widzer is an expert on loyalty and frequent flier programs. He is the author of "The Penny Pincher's Passport to Luxury Travel," a guidebook on traveling in high style at budget-friendly prices.
Web site.


Edited to add his email address: widzer@tripso.com

[Edited 2005-09-15 02:18:07]
Open Season on Consumer Protections is Just Around the Corner...
 
thelowfarehero
Posts: 139
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2005 3:55 am

RE: "Why You Should Fly The Big Airlines"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 9:31 am

Quoting TUNisia (Reply 29):
I will only fly legacy airlines simply because their product is better

I wouldn't go that far to say better. They are usually late, rude service, sh*tty food, and don't seem to be in a hurry to get you there on time.
I HAATE AA!
 
TUNisia
Posts: 1515
Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2004 3:24 am

RE: "Why You Should Fly The Big Airlines"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 9:40 am

Quoting Thelowfarehero (Reply 31):

I wouldn't go that far to say better. They are usually late, rude service, sh*tty food, and don't seem to be in a hurry to get you there on time.

With regards to your username, are you employed by an LCC?  Wink
Someday the sun will shine down on me in some faraway place - Mahalia Jackson
 
gatechae
Posts: 62
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2005 5:22 am

RE: "Why You Should Fly The Big Airlines"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 9:46 am

Quoting SATX (Reply 8):
Articles like this only push me that much farther away from the misguided American Legacy carriers that apparently need our conservative news media to lay a guilt trip on us in order to keep our business.



Quoting HZ747300 (Reply 25):
Lastly, I'd add that Southwest has been around as long as any airline and as contributed as much as anyone to air travel in the United States. Their charitable contributions are well-documented, and their commitment to safe, efficient, and affordable air travel is second to none. Slandering a company such as Southwest, which I believe has yet to lay anyone off, is absolutely un-American.

Human rights campaign corporate equality index (The HRC Corporate Equality Index is a tool to measure how equitably companies are treating their gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender employees, consumers and investors)
airline/rating (out of 100)
AA/100
US/100
CO/86
DL/86
UA/86
NW/71
WN/48

http://www.hrc.org/Template.cfm?Section=Corporate_Equality_Index&Template=/TaggedPage/TaggedPageDisplay.cfm&TPLID=23&ContentID=28493
how bout a guilt trip from the liberal side of things?
Southwest has the LOWEST equality index of all the major airlines. Being a member of this community you can see where my money goes.

P.S. Another interesting note, not only is AA a Silver level corporate sponsor of the Human Rights Campaign, it is also HRC's longest existing sponsor
 
hz747300
Posts: 1908
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 11:38 pm

RE: "Why You Should Fly The Big Airlines"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 10:05 am

Quoting GATechAE (Reply 33):
Human rights campaign corporate equality index (The HRC Corporate Equality Index is a tool to measure how equitably companies are treating their gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender employees, consumers and investors)
airline/rating (out of 100)



Quoting GATechAE (Reply 33):
WN/48

Hmmm, let's see, I've watched Airline, and I saw an openly gay employee preparing to go to an employee event. My guess would be, if he was in anyway:

- offended by his treatment at Southwest
- passed over by his superiors
- felt that Southwest was a hostile environment
- feared retribution

he would not have participated in the filming, which would be promoting his lifestyle at the airline. Profitable and successful companies do not discriminate because they understand talent and smarts--human resources--makes for a successful company, not keeping, "ol' boys club alive."

It's smart that you say AA is a sponsor and they are rated the highest. I would have preferred an independent source. If WN discriminates against anyone, it would be its overweight consumers.
Keep on truckin'...
 
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yowza
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RE: "Why You Should Fly The Big Airlines"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 10:21 am

Wow I expect this kind of stupidity from Fox but I'm used to something a little less infatile and brash from MSNBC.

YOWza
 
WN2CMH
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RE: "Why You Should Fly The Big Airlines"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 10:31 am

Quoting SATX (Reply 8):
Articles like this only push me that much farther away from the misguided American Legacy carriers that apparently need our conservative news media to lay a guilt trip on us in order to keep our business.

Our conservative news media???  rotfl  That article was on MSNBC, one of the most liberal "news" organizations in America.

It is just another attempt by the quasi-socialist media to make Americans feel guilty about being smart with their money.

Nich
Just LUV WN!
 
sw733
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RE: "Why You Should Fly The Big Airlines"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:08 am

Quoting Carmenlu15 (Thread starter):
But when it comes to air travel, consumers toss loyalty aside in search of a better deal. I call this the “Southwest Effect

What if my loyalty IS to Southwest because they have treated me a LOT better then any legacy carrier ever has? I guess the writer didn't think about that.

All in all, this article pisses me off. I'm sorry, but when I fly, I look for the best fare, best times, most comfort, and the like. In my experiences, legacy carriers have fit none of these. But apparently it's un-American to both save money AND be comfortable. What a jack ass.

This is basically like saying "You should fly xxx airline because they've been around the longest...what, you mean they only fly at 3:00am, have no food, mean flight attendants, stop in San Francisco on their way from New York to Orlando, and have 12" seat pitch?? but...they've been around the longest!!!!"
 
ACDC8
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RE: "Why You Should Fly The Big Airlines"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:08 am

The author is a travel columnist. I wonder for how many flights he pays out of his own pocket?
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
 
thecamel67
Posts: 34
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RE: "Why You Should Fly The Big Airlines"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 1:18 pm

Here was my email response to his article:

I cannot believe your naiveté especially from a travel columnist. I am a 75kyr frequent flyer with 90% of that travel on AA out of Dallas. Let’s touch on some of your points individually:

“I call this the “Southwest Effect” — the naive idea that the best deals will be found on Southwest Airlines, JetBlue, and other low-budget carriers…”

Do you actually believe that lower fares would be found on the heritage carriers if the low cost carriers did not exist. DFW is a perfect example. Before LCC competition out of DFW, under two week fares to the east and west coast were $2,000. You could always count on that price. Now, with increased competition, you rarely see such an instance even at a fortress hub such as DFW. (Don’t get me started about the Wright Amendment.)

You refer to “full service” airlines. I assume you include AA among those carriers. No pillows, pay per meal in coach, flight attendants that make two passes with the drink cart, that is a typical flight from DFW to SFO. Do you call that full service compared to an airline with pillows, attentive (hey, maybe even fun) flight attendants, and live TV to watch your favorite show?

“The major airlines are big contributors to charity, too…” And Southwest isn’t? You better check with the Ronald McDonald house as well as some as the same charities you mention.

You mention the smaller markets such as DSM. Historically these were profitable markets without gouging customers, even in the heavily regulated days. If airlines were to use aircraft with lower costs instead of the high cost regional jets, these markets would be profitable again. Due to their competition with other “heritage” carriers, they moved into the traveler preferred jets. In markets where these same jets compete with LCC’s they lose money hand over fist. It is only in those markets where they can charge a premium due to the lack of competition are they profitable.

International markets? I think you will see LCC’s in the US branch into this market just as the LCC’s in Europe have.

It is funny that you reward Wal-Mart in your article for being the American model when they did the same as the low cost carriers. They came into their markets and lowered the costs to the detriment of their competition. In Wal-Mart’s case it was the heritage grocery, pharmacy, and department store. The LCC’s are doing the same. I cannot think of something that is not more American than capitalism at work in a free market.
 
AussieItaliano
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RE: "Why You Should Fly The Big Airlines"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 1:53 pm

Oh, right!

So, if flying the carrier that offers the best service at the lowest price is un-American, then let me speculate as to what is "American".

Maybe it's the idea that only those with a lot of money can fly while the rest of the public has to take the train, bus or drive.

Or better yet, the idea that a waiter can't fly 1000 miles to visit his dying father because the walk-up fare is well over $1500.

Or maybe the real American way is for the American business to spend as much money as possible on air travel, adding to costs of doing business, and thereby passing those costs on to consumers.

Or how about spending an entire day to get from point A to point B because your airline has to route you through their chaotic hubs in cities C, D, and E (and you're paying a pretty penny for that inconvenience).

Does this sound like the American way? It sure is the way that things were before the advent of LCC's. While I can understand the frustration of the employees who have been dedicated for years, it's not fair to blame the flying public for that when they are offered a better product at a lower price.
Third Runway - LHR, Second Runway - LGW, Build Them Both!!!
 
cfcuq
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RE: "Why You Should Fly The Big Airlines"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 2:12 pm

Hmmmmm why are we north americans flying at all, when we should be travelleing ( Trans-Alantic anyway ) with our ancestral carrier, the White Star Line, proud sponsors of the Titanic, if length of existance and loyalty are to be our only guide in travel ?
 Big grin
 
MX757
Posts: 495
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RE: "Why You Should Fly The Big Airlines"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 2:45 pm

LCC vs. Legacy

Boeing vs. Airbus

Big 3 vs. Japan

I can go on and on but my point is competition is at the very heart of capitalism. When there is competion it forces the rival businesses to improve there product to get the consumers dollar. Either improve your product or die.

It's not "un-American" to chose the product and services that best suit your needs at a reasonable price.
Is it broke...? Yeah I'll fix it.
 
mandala499
Posts: 6458
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RE: "Why You Should Fly The Big Airlines"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 4:09 pm

When an airline makes a profit... it pays tax...
When an airline makes a loss, it gets tax credits...

Flying on profitable airlines = taxes gets paid = the government of the nation gets paid = a patriotic act.

Flying on unfrofitable airlines = increases liability for government through tax credits = government doesn't get paid = unpatriotic act...

That's how I would put it!

Now, the legacies were good for the nation back then... but now?

If a lifeguard commits a murder, do you offset the lives murdered with the lives it saved? NO.

Hell you can even sue a lifeguard for not rescuing you sooner or that he/she did not do the perfect rescue so you had to spend extra days in hospital...

NO... FLYING LCCs IS NOT UNPATRIOTIC.

Blame the LCC pax for forgetting the contributions made by the legacies to the nation?

Baloney... How about the legacies forgetting the contributions of the travel agents when they cut commissions?

And then there's that nice scheme of ripping pax off in the name of "Fuel Surcharge"... Hello! U advertise a ticket for $X, the pax goes "Oooh Nice", didn't know *insert legacy airline here* allows you to fly from A to B for such a nice price... Then U go to the purchase page and... Amount = X+Fuel Surcharge...
Hey, that fuel surcharge is a flat fare whether I go for a 1 hr flight, or a 10 hr flight... And these airlines still make a loss...

So go to an LCC, U get ticket price for $Y, sure it may be US$1 more expensive than the legacies, but then, hey, look, no fuel surcharge!

As far as I can remember about American Patriotic Ideals, Not paying tax and ripping other people off isn't in the list!

Since when does telling pax to "F-Off we're here for your safety and not for service" with a sour face patriotic and giving a smile to a pax and giving them a bag of peanuts/pretzels because that's all they serve not patriotic?

The author of this piece is a socialist

Err, U sure the author isn't mad instead? I thought socialism is to allow everyone to more or less enjoy/afford the same benefits... no elitism (read: First Class/Business Class)..  Smile

The author is a travel columnist. I wonder for how many flights he pays out of his own pocket?

Yeah I bet he's an obsessed professional... Coz he'd sell his soul for the benefits of his profession... but when outside work, he goes on a weekend trip on an LCC coz he had to pay out of his own pocket!

My conclusion is simple...
Joel Widzer...
1. ... can continue living in his dream world of luxury travelling with other people's money...
2. ... can start buying last minute walk up fares out of his own pocket whenever he flies...

or:
3. can *censored* off!

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
CPH757
Posts: 652
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RE: "Why You Should Fly The Big Airlines"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 5:47 pm

jeez, this has nothing to do with patriotism, or the good-vs-the evil. The LCC is simply the markets way of revealing the preferences of the customers, who have obviously changed a lot during the last decades.

When the legacy carriers to some extent have failed to realize the onward trend of flying beeing transportation from A to B, and not corporate luxury, it's in my oppinion their own fault.

There are clearly two market segments now, but the supply for the luxury one, far exceeds the demand. This is the real problem. So don't blame the LCC's for killing the legacy carriers. Even if they do, it's not because of evil people, it's because they are selling what people demands.

Don't either blame the unions, the terrorists or anyone else than the legacy carriers themselves. I'm not a big fan of unions, nor doubtfull strikes. But this is faced in a lot of industries, and based on (perhaps awkwardly) legislation. 9/11 surely had a negative impact on the industry, but there is nothing to do about it, and to some extent, wasn't this just and offset for an underlying crisis that suddently exploded, sort of like the dot.com crisis?

I like flying the legacy carriers myself. No doubt that their product often is better (Speaking of European carriers, haven't flewn US domestic), but hey, that's like comparing a Mercedes to a Hyundai. I would choose the Mercedes to the Hyundai anyday if my wallet wasn't the one to decide. If I don't go for the Hyundai, I would have the option of driving a car.

So plz stop whining about the bankrupcy filings, a hope for some consolidation in the market, that will bring the US a more healthy aviation industry (even if it includes huge sacrifices), which will hopefully set all of us better off.
Last flight: SAW-CPH on H9 on 02/11/09 - Next Flights: 23/12/09 CPH-AAL on QI, 30/12/09 CPH-LHR on SK, 19/01/10 CPH-CDG-
 
thecamel67
Posts: 34
Joined: Wed May 25, 2005 3:12 am

RE: "Why You Should Fly The Big Airlines"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 10:09 pm

So, Joel responded to my email, and quite quickly I might add. You have to give him points for that. Here is his full response:

"Dear Jeff,

Thanks for writing—I think that you are agreeing with me without knowing it. I have over 2.5 million miles on one airline and over 200,000 this year even while taking the summer off. I have put my time in the seat and at airports, and unless I am the luckiest person in the world, for all my flying I have experienced good service with the legacy/heritage carriers.

Of course prices are lower due to the LCC’s but that does not mean I have to fly them, when I get better value elsewhere. JetBlue is not going to take me to Rio in First/Business class this October for under $1300 but Delta will."
 
cornish
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RE: "Why You Should Fly The Big Airlines"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 10:20 pm

Well its easy for Joel to be harsh - I guess he doesn't get free flights or upgrades on the LCCs as he probably gets on some of the legacies as a travel writer. He also probably earns a fair bit more than so many of the people he blames for looking for the best deal they can.

He also neglects to mention that without LCCs then flying would still be a barrier to many people thanks to a cosy legacy cartel maintaining high prices.

Quoting Thecamel67 (Reply 45):
Thanks for writing—I think that you are agreeing with me without knowing it. I have over 2.5 million miles on one airline and over 200,000 this year even while taking the summer off. I have put my time in the seat and at airports, and unless I am the luckiest person in the world, for all my flying I have experienced good service with the legacy/heritage carriers.

Mmm so which carrier is rewarding him with deals or fre flights that ordinary conumers wouldn't get. Lets face it as a travel writer, he is ALWAYS going to be at the top of any upgrade list.......
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
PHLBOS
Posts: 6504
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RE: "Why You Should Fly The Big Airlines"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:01 pm

Quoting Johnboy (Reply 1):
What next? When you don't fly the legacy carriers you're supporting terrorism?

If history's any indicator, I don't recall Al-Qaida or any other terrorist organization using LCCs as a means to carry out their twisted plots of destruction. Read: American, United, PanAm (the original), TWA, etc.   

From the article:
David Neeleman, CEO of JetBlue, expects JetBlue to operate more than 275 planes by 2010; those planes will include many new Embraer 190s to go with JetBlue's current fleet of Airbus A-320s (the company doesn't even buy American!).

He obviously hasn't paid attention to aircraft orders made in recent years by NW (A319/320/330), UA (A319/320) & US (A319/320/321/330). And I believe regional partners for AA, CO, DL, UA & US fly Embraers as well.

From the article:
Whenever travelers fly a low-cost carrier, they disrespect the contributions that the major carriers have made to the United States of America.

Gee, and all this time I was under the impression that WN, B6, FL, NK, F9, TZ, and HP were also American companies. Did Virgin's Richard Branson suddenly take them all over and is now running them under an American alias w/the LCC CEO's (Kelly, Neeleman, Leonard, etc.) serving as pawns? That's a new one on me.   

From the article:
To those who think that the new low-cost carriers like Southwest and JetBlue are the future of the U.S. airline industry, I say: Think again. Will they get you to Des Moines to see Grandma at Christmas? I think not.

IIRC, when US scaled back ISP; WN moved in shortly thereafter.

From the article:
Without the major U.S. airlines, my neighbor would not be able to visit her brother twice a year in Israel; she would not have been able to explore Central and South America, taking time to become fluent in Spanish. Without the major airlines, many Americans would be unable to share Thanksgiving and Christmas with their families.

Ah, trumping the international flight card again. While I do believe the market for international flights exists; the domestic market is clearly a much larger market. Many people don't have the time (or money) for international travel.

From the article:
Along the way, they have helped businesses earn trillions of dollars, worked with the government to secure our borders, and given travelers a way to explore the wonders of the world.

And what have they gotten in return? Travelers have taken advantage of airlines’ willingness to maintain competitive fares and repaid it with fleeting loyalty and indifference.


Interestingly, Joel fails to mention the hurdles of restrictions that legacy carriers impose on travelers (change/cancellation fees (under normal conditions), last-minute fares, Saturday night stay issues, etc.).

I believe that Joel needs to realize that the primary reason for airlines (all of them) to exist is because of the customer not the other way around.

[Edited 2005-09-15 16:03:02]
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
cornish
Posts: 7651
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 8:05 pm

RE: "Why You Should Fly The Big Airlines"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:16 pm

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 47):
From the article:
Without the major U.S. airlines, my neighbor would not be able to visit her brother twice a year in Israel; she would not have been able to explore Central and South America, taking time to become fluent in Spanish. Without the major airlines, many Americans would be unable to share Thanksgiving and Christmas with their families.

Ah, trumping the international flight card again. While I do believe the market for international flights exists; the domestic market is clearly a much larger market. Many people don't have the time (or money) for international travel.

Well thats bull from Joel

If the US majors didn't exist, his neighbour could fly El Al to Israel, and maybe the likes of Mexicana, LAN or Varig to Latin America.

Clearly he hates LCCs but foreign airlines don't even exist on his radar. Perhaps if they did he'd be able to understand why the legacies are failing on in-flight service too, not just pricing against the LCCs.
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
OttoPylit
Posts: 2259
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2003 10:58 am

RE: "Why You Should Fly The Big Airlines"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:22 pm

Quoting Thecamel67 (Reply 45):
Of course prices are lower due to the LCC’s but that does not mean I have to fly them, when I get better value elsewhere. JetBlue is not going to take me to Rio in First/Business class this October for under $1300 but Delta will."

He makes a good point. Who IS going to take you to Rio, in a First Class seat, for a very reasonable price?

Answer: Not an LCC. But an LCC can get you to Orlando, if its any consolation. But then again, so can everyone else.


OttoPylit
I don't have a microwave, but I do have a clock that occasionally cooks shit.