boeing767mech
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757 And 737 Winglets At AA

Thu Sep 15, 2005 8:34 am

Just heard from someone that works for American Airlines that they just came out and said there going to be putting winglets on 20 757's and 1 737.

This was out on there company newsletter so I can't put it on a.net

David
Never under-estimate the predictably of stupidty
 
qqflyboy
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RE: 757 And 737 Winglets At AA

Thu Sep 15, 2005 8:42 am

From Jetwire, AA's daily employee newsletter:

---NEW WINGLETS TO SAVE MILLIONS IN FUEL--- American Airlines will install winglets on 20 Boeing 757s and one Boeing 737 as part of an ongoing effort to cut fuel costs. Because winglets are most efficient at cruise altitude, the 757 was chosen because it flies American's longer domestic segments, such as its Hawaii routes. The 20 Boeing 757s are expected to save up to four million gallons of fuel per year, resulting in the winglets paying for themselves through fuel savings. Installation will be done at the Tulsa base, where dock space and labor resources have been made available though joint management-union "Working Together" and "Continuous Improvement" initiatives. The first winglet-equipped aircraft should be in service in late 2005 and all should be flying by early 2007.
The views expressed are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect my employer’s views.
 
looneytoon
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RE: 757 And 737 Winglets At AA

Thu Sep 15, 2005 9:03 am

Why are they putting the winglets on one 737?
LooneyToon
 
qqflyboy
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RE: 757 And 737 Winglets At AA

Thu Sep 15, 2005 9:07 am

Quoting LooneyToon (Reply 2):
Why are they putting the winglets on one 737?

I wondered the same. My guess is to test how much efficiency they can get out of the winglets. AA has been studying winglets for a very long time and they haven't been sold in the past on the data. This gives them the opportunity to come up with their own numbers and go from there.

The 20 757s isn't unexpected as AA has been toying with the idea of launching new trans-Atlantic service on reconfigured 757s that are winglet equipped to help increase range. This is just one more step in that direction, in my opinion.

[Edited 2005-09-15 02:08:21]
The views expressed are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect my employer’s views.
 
Btriple7
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RE: 757 And 737 Winglets At AA

Thu Sep 15, 2005 9:10 am

Does anyone know if the 767 is close to winglet certification?
Just...fly.
 
FlagshipAZ
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RE: 757 And 737 Winglets At AA

Thu Sep 15, 2005 9:14 am

I wonder if that one 737 is the Retro Jet, or did they paint that bird back into the everyday livery? I'm curious to know which 20 757s will get the winglets, as well as that sole 737. Regards.
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." --Ben Franklin
 
bomber996
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RE: 757 And 737 Winglets At AA

Thu Sep 15, 2005 9:20 am

Sweet. Another batch of 757's to proudly wear those winglets. Hope these work well for American, and the entire fleet one day has them (wishful thinking on my end  sly  ).

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irev210
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RE: 757 And 737 Winglets At AA

Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:55 am

Good to see, I personally thing it is something they should have done 3 years ago, but nice to see that it is being done.
 
COERJ145
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RE: 757 And 737 Winglets At AA

Thu Sep 15, 2005 12:43 pm

Can winglets be installed on MD80 aircraft? I just think it would look intresting to see them with winglets.
 
797
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RE: 757 And 737 Winglets At AA

Thu Sep 15, 2005 12:53 pm

Quoting Bomber996 (Reply 6):
Sweet. Another batch of 757's to proudly wear those winglets. Hope these work well for American, and the entire fleet one day has them (wishful thinking on my end ).

Yeah! I agree with you. And if those winglets look nice on normal 757s, imagine them on AA ones! Hope they work for them!

Quoting COERJ145 (Reply 8):
Can winglets be installed on MD80 aircraft? I just think it would look intresting to see them with winglets.

Wow! I don't think it would look nice, and probably it's not longer necessary. And by the way, is AA thinking about retiring those aircraft?
Flying isn't dangerous. Crashing is what's dangerous!
 
AAR90
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RE: 757 And 737 Winglets At AA

Thu Sep 15, 2005 1:17 pm

Quoting Bomber996 (Reply 6):
Hope these work well for American, and the entire fleet one day has them (wishful thinking on my end ).

I would expect that will eventually happen (AA no longer likes multiple sub-fleet types), but the overriding issue would be how much $$$ and when to pay that $$$ (and how quickly the return on the investment is realized).

Quoting Irev210 (Reply 7):
I personally thing it is something they should have done 3 years ago

3 years ago AA did not have the available cash to spend. With over $5+ BILLION per year in operational savings already made, the "easy" cost cutting is over and management is moving on to areas where they need to invest money in order to save money (they've been doing some fuel hedging this year). Only problem is how much to invest, when to invest and when (how fast) will AA recoup the investment. Winglets on 752's will return the investment quicker than winglets on 738's (752 flys much longer average stage lengths). I suspect the 20 B752 number came from the number of planes required to regularly fly extended overwater routes (i.e. Hawaii, South America, Europe) and the 1 738 was to provide a test bed for actual fuel figures using actual AA route segments.
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NYCAAer
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RE: 757 And 737 Winglets At AA

Thu Sep 15, 2005 2:30 pm

I can understand using the winglet-equipped 757s on new routes to secondary destinations in Europe out of JFK, but there's an ugly rumor running rampant among the JFK-based flight attendants that AA wants to put the 757 on JFK-CDG. Ick. CO is doing that on one of its EWR-CDG flights, but the other is a 777.

I don't know how we'd be able to downgrade JFK-CDG with the loads we have in Business Class on the 767-300, not to mention all the cargo. We can't downgrade ourselves out of the market. Hopefully this is just a stupid rumor with no factual basis.
 
DLKAPA
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RE: 757 And 737 Winglets At AA

Thu Sep 15, 2005 2:45 pm

Quoting FlagshipAZ (Reply 5):
I wonder if that one 737 is the Retro Jet, or did they paint that bird back into the everyday livery?

The Astrojet 752 was repainted a little while ago back into the current AA livery.

Quoting 797 (Reply 9):
Yeah! I agree with you. And if those winglets look nice on normal 757s, imagine them on AA ones! Hope they work for them!

The difference between a normal 757 and an AA 757 is?
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
Bluewave 707
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RE: 757 And 737 Winglets At AA

Thu Sep 15, 2005 2:46 pm

It seems that AA has seen the light about the benefits of winglets, a few years late, but better than nothing I guess.

It surprised me that the majors with 737NGs (CO, DL, and AA) along with FL took so long to have winglets installed. Well ... DL has still missed the boat. Can you imagine how much fuel these guys might have saved? Or even the money?

Will AA paint the winglets with AA logo? Or stripes? Please do not leave them grey! Can't wait to see the 75Ws @ HNL!
"The best use of your life will be to so live your life, that the use of your life will outlive your life" -- D Severn
 
COEWR
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RE: 757 And 737 Winglets At AA

Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:26 pm

Good news to hear. Now three majors have winglets on 757s...CO, AA, UA...

 Wink

lol...

-C

ps...for those of you who don't understand sarcasm, that's it....
 
SNATH
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RE: 757 And 737 Winglets At AA

Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:34 pm

Quoting QQflyboy (Reply 3):
Why are they putting the winglets on one 737?

I wondered the same. My guess is to test how much efficiency they can get out of the winglets.

I'd be surprised if the reason is anything else than a test, as flyboy said. Could it be that, with purchasing 20 kits of the B757s, they were given one for the B737 for free (or as a loan) to see whether they'd like it?

Tony

[Edited 2005-09-15 16:39:11]
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N1120A
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RE: 757 And 737 Winglets At AA

Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:35 pm

Quoting QQflyboy (Reply 3):
I wondered the same. My guess is to test how much efficiency they can get out of the winglets. AA has been studying winglets for a very long time and they haven't been sold in the past on the data. This gives them the opportunity to come up with their own numbers and go from there.

I really don't know why AA wouldn't be sold on the largest 737 operator in the world telling everyone how much the savings are

Quoting Bluewave 707 (Reply 13):
It surprised me that the majors with 737NGs (CO, DL, and AA) along with FL took so long to have winglets installed.

FL didn't take all that long if you think about it. Also, DL is not yet getting them. Remember too that WN took quite a while to warm up to winglets.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
BMIFlyer
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RE: 757 And 737 Winglets At AA

Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:35 pm

Quoting FlagshipAZ (Reply 5):
I wonder if that one 737 is the Retro Jet, or did they paint that bird back into the everyday livery?

N951AA is still in the retro livery  Smile


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Cool scheme if you want my opinion  Wink


Lee
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drerx7
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RE: 757 And 737 Winglets At AA

Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:38 pm

Quoting COEWR (Reply 14):
Good news to hear. Now three majors have winglets on 757s...CO, AA, UA...


BWHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHA
I forgot UA put winglets on one 757 to save fuel on the flights to Walla Walla.
Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
 
luisca
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RE: 757 And 737 Winglets At AA

Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:39 pm

Quoting DLKAPA (Reply 12):
The difference between a normal 757 and an AA 757 is?

Normal 757's look great, AA's 757's are Gorgeous, the most beautifull airplane out there.


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GQfluffy
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RE: 757 And 737 Winglets At AA

Fri Sep 16, 2005 12:03 am

Quoting DLKAPA (Reply 12):
The difference between a normal 757 and an AA 757 is?

Well...could be one of two things. Either 797 really likes the looks of the PW-powered 757s, or he is referring to 757s that actually have PAINT on them...
This isn't where I parked my car...
 
AA777
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RE: 757 And 737 Winglets At AA

Fri Sep 16, 2005 1:05 am

Quoting Bluewave 707 (Reply 13):
Will AA paint the winglets with AA logo? Or stripes? Please do not leave them grey!

I expect they will be grey, but with part of the winglet painted w/AA's Red, White & Blue stripes, a la MD-11 of AA's Past.

-AA777
 
jacobin777
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RE: 757 And 737 Winglets At AA

Fri Sep 16, 2005 1:22 am

Quoting NYCAAer (Reply 11):
there's an ugly rumor running rampant among the JFK-based flight attendants that AA wants to put the 757 on JFK-CDG. Ick. CO is doing that on one of its EWR-CDG flights, but the other is a 777.

its not their job to decide fleet utilisation.... Wink

Quoting Luisca (Reply 19):
Normal 757's look great, AA's 757's are Gorgeous, the most beautifull airplane out there.

AA's 757 are definitely the best looking 757's out there...bar none... yes 



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gkirk
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RE: 757 And 737 Winglets At AA

Fri Sep 16, 2005 1:25 am

Will be good to see AA 757s with winglets at NCL  Smile
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akelley728
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RE: 757 And 737 Winglets At AA

Fri Sep 16, 2005 1:40 am

Quoting DLKAPA (Reply 12):
The difference between a normal 757 and an AA 757 is?

Paint!
 
Bluewave 707
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RE: 757 And 737 Winglets At AA

Fri Sep 16, 2005 3:25 am

Quoting AA777 (Reply 21):
expect they will be grey, but with part of the winglet painted w/AA's Red, White & Blue stripes, a la MD-11 of AA's Past.

The MD-11 is the only type with the tab on the bottom part of the winglet.
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/193816/M/
The APB Blended Winglets do not have that part.
"The best use of your life will be to so live your life, that the use of your life will outlive your life" -- D Severn
 
DAYflyer
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RE: 757 And 737 Winglets At AA

Fri Sep 16, 2005 3:26 am

Thursday September 15, 2:00 PM EDT


SEATTLE -(Dow Jones)- AMR Corp. (AMR)'s (AMR) American Airlines bought from Aviation Partners Boeing (BA) blended winglets for 21 airplanes.

Blended winglets, apparatuses attached to wings, improve aerodynamics and cut airplane fuel consumption.

In a press release Thursday, Aviation Partners said American Airlines will install blended winglets on one Boeing (BA) 737-800 in October, and 20 Boeing (BA) 757- 200s from November to early 2007.

American Airlines is buying the fuel-saving winglets amid soaring fuel prices that hastened Northwest Airlines Corp. (NWAC)'s (NWAC) and Delta Air Lines Inc. (DAL)'s (DAL) bankruptcy filings on Wednesday.

Aviation Partners Boeing (BA) is a joint venture between Seattle-based Aviation Partners Inc., and Boeing Co. (BA) (BA).

AMR Corp. (AMR) shares fell 20 cents, or 1.6%, to $11.93 in New York composite trading.
One Nation Under God
 
NYCAAer
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RE: 757 And 737 Winglets At AA

Fri Sep 16, 2005 6:52 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 22):
its not their job to decide fleet utilization

No, it's not. However, it IS a decision which directly affects our quality of work life. The JFK-CDG flight is full of passenger drama on the 767-300. I can't imagine what it would be like on a 757.
 
mikephotos
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RE: 757 And 737 Winglets At AA

Fri Sep 16, 2005 7:00 am

Some AA 757 winglets....  Smile







Mike
 
AsstChiefMark
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RE: 757 And 737 Winglets At AA

Fri Sep 16, 2005 7:15 am

Here's what a NW DC-9 looks like with winglets.

http://www.cardatabase.net/modifiedairlinerphotos/photos/big/00003543.jpg

Mark
Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Damned MSP...Red tail...Red tail
 
797
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RE: 757 And 737 Winglets At AA

Fri Sep 16, 2005 8:36 am

Quoting DLKAPA (Reply 12):
The difference between a normal 757 and an AA 757 is?

I think that AA's livery on the 757s is one of the best-looking ones, it fits very well on the aircraft. Just my personal opinion.

By the way, cool pics! I bet they will look awesome on AA 757s!

Greetz!

[Edited 2005-09-16 02:00:22]
Flying isn't dangerous. Crashing is what's dangerous!
 
KFLLCFII
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RE: 757 And 737 Winglets At AA

Fri Sep 16, 2005 8:45 am

Yeah, they will definitely look sharp on these already-beautiful birds:


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Can't wait!
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jacobin777
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RE: 757 And 737 Winglets At AA

Fri Sep 16, 2005 8:56 am

Quoting NYCAAer (Reply 27):
No, it's not. However, it IS a decision which directly affects our quality of work life. The JFK-CDG flight is full of passenger drama on the 767-300. I can't imagine what it would be like on a 757.

how is the JFK-CDG route coming along? I was planning on taking it last month but wound up taking AA's JFK-LHR (AA142) route on a 777-200ER instead... biggrin 

If AA want's to move the route to a 757 from a 767..I would imagine that either the yields or the pax count aren't too good (or AA is going for more frequency)...

dont you have 2X/daily flights to CDG?
"Up the Irons!"
 
ckfred
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RE: 757 And 737 Winglets At AA

Fri Sep 16, 2005 3:15 pm

I read in an article in the Chicago Tribune that AA was hesitant to install winglets on the 737 fleet for two reasons. First, there was the cost of installing and maintaining the winglets. Oil would have to stay high for AA to justify the expense. I think the article was written back before oil went above $50 a barrel, so my guess is that the price of jet fuel now justifies the cost.

Second, winglets added 5 feet to the wingspan of the 737. I think the -800's wingspan is 112 feet, so it could park at pretty much any gate that could accept an MD-80. But at 117 feet, that will cut down on gates that accept a 737.

That probably isn't a problem at DFW, but it would have been a problem at ORD. There are some gates were a tight fit for a 737. My guess is that LGA will be a problem.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: 757 And 737 Winglets At AA

Fri Sep 16, 2005 5:59 pm

Quoting COERJ145 (Reply 8):
Can winglets be installed on MD80 aircraft? I just think it would look intresting to see them with winglets.

What's the point of saving 3% to 7% (benefit of winglets) when the engines have a TSFC of 0.737* or > 25% more fuel consumption than a modern engine.

AA needs to make a choice on the Maddogs, either spend quite a bit upgrading them or send them out to become beer cans. I just can't believe in today's oil environment the aircraft are profitable.

Quoting Mikephotos (Reply 28):
Some AA 757 winglets...

I love the AA logo on the winglet, very classy. Why only 20 upgraded? Get all of the 757's upgraded and start sending them to Europe, Hawaii, and on transcons.

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 29):
Here's what a NW DC-9 looks like with winglets.

 rotfl 

Lightsaber
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syncmaster
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RE: 757 And 737 Winglets At AA

Fri Sep 16, 2005 6:29 pm

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 34):
I just can't believe in today's oil environment the aircraft are profitable.

I'm not sure if AA owns or leases their birds, but if they own them, then it's a good chance the payments on them have either ended, or will soon. That in itself is a huge benefit, even over a new airplane that uses less fuel.
 
NYCAAer
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RE: 757 And 737 Winglets At AA

Fri Sep 16, 2005 10:36 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 32):
how is the JFK-CDG route coming along?

Last I knew, it was doing okay. Both flights are still full most of the time- load factors in the 85-90% range. We have so much cargo that our cargo document envelope has to be put in a vinyl pouch so that it doesn't burst. The yields eroded a bit in the past couple of years, but I attribute that to losing the 777 on the route and replacing it with the 2-class 763 with those awful retro-1995 business class seats. I work the CDG route all the time as a French speaker, and know all the "regulars" on the route. We lost quite a few of them when it went to 2-class. They kept telling us (the flight attendants) that they didn't want to pay to sit in those awful J seats and would switch to AF. But of course, it took a long time for AA to catch on. I wish management would listen to flight attendant feedback more. We are a direct line to communication with the passengers, and we spend more time with passengers than any other work group. We know what they like and what they dislike.

Hopefully, now that we're getting the new lie-flat beds and digital on-demand video on the 767-300, we'll recapture those business class passengers. I don't think the passengers mind the 767, it's the uncomfortable seats that are a factor.

Also, rumors run around airline employee circles all the time, and I remember in 1997, the rumor was that we were going to stop flying JFK-CDG altogether. Then, 2 years later, a second flight was added to meet the demand. No accurate basis for the rumor there.

One of the destinations on AA's wish list for JFK on the winglet-equipped 757 is Lyon, France, and I think the rumor may stem from there. We do have a "Jetnews Questions and Answers" forum on the AA Flight Service website where I keep asking about the 757 on CDG, and so far they haven't answered me. About a year or two ago, AA decided to replace some of its 767s on the JFK-SFO route with 757s, and the passengers balked. There was such an uproar, that 2-class 763s (due to a lack of 3-class 762s) were put on the flights operated by the 757s, and they're doing well again.

Personally, I don't think the 757 CDG rumor is correct, because AA reduced fleet types at different stations in Europe to reduce maintenance costs during the 2003 restructuring (all 777s to LHR, all 763s to Continental Europe, the exceptions being the FRA and LGW stations where both 777s and 763s are flown), so this would go against reason. But you never know. I thought there might be someone out there who might have an inside scoop on this. I'm planning on working JFK-CDG next month, so I'll ask the Operations Manager of the CDG station. I've known him for 16 years, and he knows everything.
 
797
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RE: 757 And 737 Winglets At AA

Sat Sep 17, 2005 12:38 am

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 34):
AA needs to make a choice on the Maddogs, either spend quite a bit upgrading them or send them out to become beer cans. I just can't believe in today's oil environment the aircraft are profitable.

Yeah, I keep asking myself when are those aircrafts going to be replaced on AA. They should think on investing on somethin new. But we have to keep in mind that they have a lot of these a/cs. I think some more 737s would be a good option, or probably some new model.
Flying isn't dangerous. Crashing is what's dangerous!
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: 757 And 737 Winglets At AA

Sat Sep 17, 2005 12:56 am

>> Yeah, I keep asking myself when are those aircrafts going to be replaced on AA. They should think on investing on somethin new

The problem is, AA really won't have the funds to replace an entire fleet of 330+ MD80 for a long time. Certainly not with other necessary fleet replacement like the A300 and 767 that will eventually come.

AA should consider other options like a re-engine program to make opperating cost of the MD80 as close to modern types as possible. A re-engine program may only cost $10-15 million per plane, versus $40-50 million for a new aircraft. If the DC-9 is any indication, there are pleanty of life in some AA MD-80 to amortize the cost and turn a profit.

>> I'm not sure if AA owns or leases their birds, but if they own them, then it's a good chance the payments on them have either ended, or will soon.

AA has remained financially stable in 2005, a good indication that their non-fuel cost are low enough that the MD-80 fleet is still commercially viable. But IMO, the real issue isn't so much fuel, but having to turn over maybe 500 narrowbody and widebody types from 2010-2020. That will strain the resources of any carrier, especially one with turbulent finances only a few years ago.

Modernizing the MD-80 would allow them to (comfortably) stretch out their replacement cycle by many years, and thus reduce the blunt of fleet replacement they will face in the future.
 
commavia
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RE: 757 And 737 Winglets At AA

Sat Sep 17, 2005 1:09 am

Quoting 797 (Reply 37):
Yeah, I keep asking myself when are those aircrafts going to be replaced on AA.

When AA has the $8B to buy 340 new 737s.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 38):
But IMO, the real issue isn't so much fuel, but having to turn over maybe 500 narrowbody and widebody types from 2010-2020.

It won't be nearly that dramatic. Many of AA's MD80s (the ex-TWA aircraft) are less than 10 years old and still have at least 15-20 years of flying left in them. In addition, many of AA's MD80s still have easily 10-15 years left, and probably another 5-10 beyond that with some heavier modifications. AA is going to have to substantially replace its MD80 fleet in the next 15-20 years -- no doubt about that -- but I think it will be fairly gradual, as the MD80s are a part of the Douglas legacy: tough, reliable workhorse aircraft, and they still have a lot of life left in them.

[Edited 2005-09-16 18:10:09]
 
N1120A
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RE: 757 And 737 Winglets At AA

Sat Sep 17, 2005 1:38 am

Quoting GQfluffy (Reply 20):
Either 797 really likes the looks of the PW-powered 757s

AA's 757s are RR powered

Quoting NYCAAer (Reply 27):
No, it's not. However, it IS a decision which directly affects our quality of work life. The JFK-CDG flight is full of passenger drama on the 767-300. I can't imagine what it would be like on a 757.

I really doubt they would put a 757 on that route, particularly if the cargo loads are what you say

Quoting NYCAAer (Reply 36):
We have so much cargo that our cargo document envelope has to be put in a vinyl pouch so that it doesn't burst.

Given the 757's limited ability to carry heavy cargo, I really doubt it would happen
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
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tjwgrr
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RE: 757 And 737 Winglets At AA

Sat Sep 17, 2005 1:51 am

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 29):
Here's what a NW DC-9 looks like with winglets

LOL- but pretty cool! Nothing would surprise me.

EAGAN, MN (AP) Northwest Airlines announced today plans to outfit 75 DC-9-30's with blended winglets..... Northwest plans on utilizing the DC-9 until at least the year 2050............

[Edited 2005-09-16 18:53:11]
Direct KNOBS, maintain 2700' until established on the localizer, cleared ILS runway 26 left approach.
 
GOAQ
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RE: 757 And 737 Winglets At AA

Sat Sep 17, 2005 2:06 am

I always joke about the MD80s being retrofitted with winglets one day and start flying transcontinental flights....Hmmmmm...I Don't rule out anything these days. They already fly SFO-ORD and back. Another 1-1/2 flight to Boston and your done. I will NOT be surprised that one day the workhorse of the fleet will be fitted with these winglets. Never say never!!!!
 
birdbrainz
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RE: 757 And 737 Winglets At AA

Sat Sep 17, 2005 5:57 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 38):
AA should consider other options like a re-engine program to make opperating cost of the MD80 as close to modern types as possible. A re-engine program may only cost $10-15 million per plane, versus $40-50 million for a new aircraft. If the DC-9 is any indication, there are pleanty of life in some AA MD-80 to amortize the cost and turn a profit.

In theory, yes. However, a re-engined MD80 was already tried, and it was called the MD90 (aka 717). There was another poster (who worked as a mechanic for Delta) who said that the V2500s powering the MD90 had their accessories and gearboxs moved around to adapt it to the MD90 mounts, and it was a reliability nightmare. If AA loved the MD90 so much, I'm sure they would have kept the ex-TWA ones.

All that said, I know nothing of the above subject. I'm only repeating what I saw in previous post. I wonder if there would be critical mass to come up with a single re-engining effort for both the NW DC-9s and the AA MD80s.
A good landing is one you can walk away from. A great landing is if the aircraft can be flown again.
 
SNATH
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RE: 757 And 737 Winglets At AA

Sat Sep 17, 2005 6:01 am

Quoting Birdbrainz (Reply 43):
it was called the MD90 (aka 717)

The MD90 and the B717 are actually different planes (the B717 designation was originally the MD95):

http://www.airliners.net/info/stats.main?id=110
http://www.airliners.net/info/stats.main?id=111

Quoting Birdbrainz (Reply 43):
If AA loved the MD90 so much, I'm sure they would have kept the ex-TWA ones.

TWA had 717s that AA inherited and, to my knowledge, neither has flown the MD90.

Tony
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tavong
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RE: 757 And 737 Winglets At AA

Sat Sep 17, 2005 6:58 am

Quoting Birdbrainz (Reply 43):
In theory, yes. However, a re-engined MD80 was already tried, and it was called the MD90 (aka 717). There was another poster (who worked as a mechanic for Delta) who said that the V2500s powering the MD90 had their accessories and gearboxs moved around to adapt it to the MD90 mounts, and it was a reliability nightmare. If AA loved the MD90 so much, I'm sure they would have kept the ex-TWA ones.

Well since the MD-90 is basically a Reenginded MD-80 in the complex way is a very different plane, different avioncs and you don't have a MD-90 just changing the Pratt for the V2500, on other hand the B717 is a completely different plane. The MD-90 economics are better than the MD-80 ones but we are talking about AA and DL that are a large MD-80 operators and having a "special" plane (MD-90) flying alone over there doesn't make economical sense, is not a bad plane is just that the fleet is too small to make sense.

Just for a note the B717 is a DC-9-30 slightly enlarged frame with BMW Rolls-Royce BR715 engines and the DC-9-34 wings.

Hope this helps

Gus
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ckfred
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RE: 757 And 737 Winglets At AA

Sat Sep 17, 2005 6:58 am

A friend of mine at AA thinks that AA will eventually replace 40 to 60 MD-80s with 737-800s, but that the rest of the fleet will probably be replaced with the narrowbody aircraft that Boeing will design, as the 737 successor, using composite technology.
 
LMP737
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RE: 757 And 737 Winglets At AA

Sat Sep 17, 2005 7:16 am

Quoting Birdbrainz (Reply 43):
There was another poster (who worked as a mechanic for Delta) who said that the V2500s powering the MD90 had their accessories and gearboxs moved around to adapt it to the MD90 mounts, and it was a reliability nightmare. If AA loved the MD90 so much, I'm sure they would have kept the ex-TWA ones.

The biggest problem with the ex-Reno MD-90's AA had was with the electrical system. Very troublesome system, one of the main reasons actually the MD-90 was such a poor seller.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
N1120A
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RE: 757 And 737 Winglets At AA

Sat Sep 17, 2005 7:31 am

Quoting Ckfred (Reply 33):
First, there was the cost of installing and maintaining the winglets. Oil would have to stay high for AA to justify the expense. I think the article was written back before oil went above $50 a barrel, so my guess is that the price of jet fuel now justifies the cost.

WN has hedged fuel and ordered their's before fuel started skyrocketing, so that really doesn't make sense. To say that $1 million dollars wont be paid for within the near term with 3-7% fuel savings is ludicrious

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 34):
What's the point of saving 3% to 7% (benefit of winglets) when the engines have a TSFC of 0.737* or > 25% more fuel consumption than a modern engine.

Isn't at least part of the TSFC difference made up for by the lower weight of the MD-80, which is what keeps them competitive in the first place? Not saying that winglets would help, as I don't think they would help all that much given the wing design
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birdbrainz
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RE: 757 And 737 Winglets At AA

Sat Sep 17, 2005 9:02 am

First, a very sincere thank you to the other posters above for educating me on the MD90/95 and B717 differences. This is a very sharp crowd. I was hoping noboby would notice that I said the 717 is based on the MD90.  Smile

It's true that the MD90 is much more than a re-engined MD80, but I was merely using it as an example of the hassles of bolting new engines on an MD80, if there were indeed problems with the V2500 accessories.

I really wish that MD did the UDF version of the MD80. It just looked way too cool for words.
A good landing is one you can walk away from. A great landing is if the aircraft can be flown again.

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