AirRyan
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How Will Ch11 Affect NW's 18 Firm 787's?

Thu Sep 15, 2005 12:44 pm

NW is the North American launch customer for the 787 with 18 firm and 50 options. I was just reading the NW monthly magazine from a few months back and the into from Steenland was talking about the 787 and how it was going to be a perfect fit for NW's Asian route structure. I would only have to imagine that NW upper management knew that Ch11 was a distinct possibility so what happens now with the order?

Is there a potential that the entire order is scrapped?

Is there not a good chance that NW can emerge from Ch11 before August of 2008 and take delivery of their first 787 as otherwise scheduled?

NW really needs the 787 as it's Asian routes are actually quite profitable and with the addition of the 787 would only become more so. I fret to think that Boeing might lose 18 firm 787 and NW doesn't retain the PR of being the North American launch customer for the 787.

Quote:
The order includes firm purchases of 18 787-8s worth, approximately $2.2 billion at list prices, plus options and purchase rights for 50 additional Dreamliners. Six airplanes will be delivered each year during 2008, 2009, and 2010. With its initial delivery in August 2008, Northwest will be the first North American carrier operating the 787.

 
United Airline
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RE: How Will Ch11 Affect NW's 18 Firm 787's?

Thu Sep 15, 2005 3:39 pm

Hope not. And I hope the DC9s, DC10s, B 747-200s etc will stay for a while....
 
dutchjet
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RE: How Will Ch11 Affect NW's 18 Firm 787's?

Thu Sep 15, 2005 4:20 pm

NW will have the option to cancel (reject)the agreement to purchase the 787s...cancelling contracts is one of the provisions of bankruptcy. If NW wants to go ahead with the 787s, it will re-affirm the contract....time will tell.

Its very early to say what will happen here, but it is important to note that NW now has the option of getting out of its committment to Boeing for the 787s (and to Airbus for any aircraft that it may have on order with that manufacturer).

Example, CO had orders for the A330/A340 at one time, those orders were cancelled during CO's bankruptcy proceeding in the early 1990s.
 
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RE: How Will Ch11 Affect NW's 18 Firm 787's?

Thu Sep 15, 2005 4:59 pm

air ryan,
if nwa put some cash up front for the delivery slots then there could be a issue...i doubt doug threw any $$$$ in for the order.....if they did then nwa is gonna balk at any invoice being thrown at them,,then this could be a great opportunity for ual or even aa to get on board and grab those delivery slots that nwa will not exercise.....the perfect storm is starting to form.....summer of hell was a walk in grant park compared to what is going to happen at nwa and delta
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OHLHD
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RE: How Will Ch11 Affect NW's 18 Firm 787's?

Thu Sep 15, 2005 5:21 pm

Is NW allowed under Ch. 11 protection to take delivery of new aircraft, or generally are airlines allowed to make/take orders?

Wasn´t the delivery of the AC A345 postponed as long as thy were under Ch.11?
 
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keesje
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RE: How Will Ch11 Affect NW's 18 Firm 787's?

Thu Sep 15, 2005 6:02 pm

I think NWA got a razor sharp deal on the 787, Boeing wanted NWA bad & NWA / Boeing will do the utmost the keep the deal alive. NWA don't have the kind of depths DL has.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Shenzhen
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RE: How Will Ch11 Affect NW's 18 Firm 787's?

Thu Sep 15, 2005 6:11 pm

NW could probably get out of the contract, but doubt they would see thier deposit refunded, unless Boeing were being nice.

cheers
 
Lemonsoda
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RE: How Will Ch11 Affect NW's 18 Firm 787's?

Thu Sep 15, 2005 6:46 pm

The following information is drawn and condensed from an article in the FT (2005-09-14) regarding the Chapter 11 filings of Delta and NWA:

Northwest, advised by the Seabury Group, will rely on its cash balance of $1.4bn as of September 14 to see it through the process. It is seeking more concessions from its three unions, with analysts estimating that these need to be raised to an annual $1.4bn to restore profitability.

Quoting AirRyan (Thread starter):
Is there not a good chance that NW can emerge from Ch11 before August of 2008 and take delivery of their first 787 as otherwise scheduled?

NW really needs the 787 as it's Asian routes are actually quite profitable and with the addition of the 787 would only become more so. I fret to think that Boeing might lose 18 firm 787 and NW doesn't retain the PR of being the North American launch customer for the 787.

If Northwest can be set on a sound financial basis over the next year, it seems to me that its business model will require those new aircraft.

Some airlines will bleed off the overcapacity present in the American market, and it will not be JetBlue or SouthWest. I wonder what the position of non-bankruptcy-protected but teetering companies will look like.
 
Lemonsoda
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RE: How Will Ch11 Affect NW's 18 Firm 787's?

Thu Sep 15, 2005 8:49 pm

The Seattle PI posted an article that directly addresses the questions raised in this thread and quotes Richard Aboulafia - he thinks there is little risk of Northwest's oders being cancelled, but puts this into a less heartening wider perspective.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/240736_boeingimpact15.html

For a more general appreciation of American airlines' woes, see

http://www.economist.com/agenda/displayStory.cfm?story_id=4399993
 
whitehatter
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RE: How Will Ch11 Affect NW's 18 Firm 787's?

Thu Sep 15, 2005 9:03 pm

I doubt the order will be cancelled unless the unthinkable happens and NW is liquidated. Aircraft in this context are a raw material which the company requires to continue trading and not a luxury item, like company car purchases for executives.

As long as the deal does not have any parts which the court finds objectionable then it will be regarded as an essential part of the ongoing NW business. Certainly the engine contract will be in its favour as the Rolls Royce contracts favour financial stability, which the judge will presumably regard as essential.

The only issue will be how NW has chosen to finance the purchase, not whether they need the aircraft. Presumably there are financing partners who have been kept well aware of the ongoing situation.
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BigGSFO
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RE: How Will Ch11 Affect NW's 18 Firm 787's?

Thu Sep 15, 2005 10:56 pm

Does anybody know if the financing terms for these ordered aircraft will change given the poor credit rating now that NW is in bankruptcy? I am sure the interest rate could increase considerably but I do not know if it is fixed at the time of ordering.
 
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RE: How Will Ch11 Affect NW's 18 Firm 787's?

Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:01 pm

NW order backlog with Airbus is much larger than with Boeing so I think it would be Airbus who would be worried rather than Boeing. Boeing can easily sell the NW 787 delivery slots w/o a problem so they are not worried.
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cornish
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RE: How Will Ch11 Affect NW's 18 Firm 787's?

Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:10 pm

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 11):
NW order backlog with Airbus is much larger than with Boeing so I think it would be Airbus who would be worried rather than Boeing. Boeing can easily sell the NW 787 delivery slots w/o a problem so they are not worried.

And somebody HAD to turn a sensible business discussion about the effects of Ch.11 bankrputcy into an A. v B. affair......

Shame on you - so you think Boeing wouldn't be worried by losing one of only two US majors (and lets forget that silly Primaris order) that have ordered the 787 then??

Bearting in mind that NW are currently taking delivery of their Airbuses, there would no doubt be some stiff penalties on NW should they stop or pull out of the deal. The order for FUTURE delivery of the 787 is a whole different question.
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aviatortj
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RE: How Will Ch11 Affect NW's 18 Firm 787's?

Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:33 pm

Anyone think this will allow NW to cancel the remaining A32x that they have tried to defer for so long?
 
AirRyan
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RE: How Will Ch11 Affect NW's 18 Firm 787's?

Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:33 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 5):
I think NWA got a razor sharp deal on the 787, Boeing wanted NWA bad & NWA / Boeing will do the utmost the keep the deal alive. NWA don't have the kind of depths DL has.

I too think they got a great deal being the NA launch cutomer with 18 firm - and NW probably wants those 787's more than Boeing does, if that's possible. Hopefully any BK legal preceedings will see that as well.

Quoting Lemonsoda (Reply 7):
If Northwest can be set on a sound financial basis over the next year, it seems to me that its business model will require those new aircraft.

Exactly - the 787 would be a big money make for NW and their value is really invaluable to the future success of NW.

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 9):
As long as the deal does not have any parts which the court finds objectionable then it will be regarded as an essential part of the ongoing NW business.

I hope that is the case, because the 787 is litterally ideal for NW's Asian routes and the A330's are good money makers to their European routes as well. Perhpas NW might still replace their 747 classics with 747ADV's but that will likely be after they get their DC-9 replacement plan (E-190/5) set up. If NW could only take their 787's I'd be happy, let alone all of the aforementioned.

Quoting Cornish (Reply 12):
And somebody HAD to turn a sensible business discussion about the effects of Ch.11 bankrputcy into an A. v B. affair......

Shame on you - so you think Boeing wouldn't be worried by losing one of only two US majors (and lets forget that silly Primaris order) that have ordered the 787 then??

Bearting in mind that NW are currently taking delivery of their Airbuses, there would no doubt be some stiff penalties on NW should they stop or pull out of the deal. The order for FUTURE delivery of the 787 is a whole different question.

We're referrring to the last remaing A330's, correct? NW needs them as much as they need the new 787's as they are replacing the DC10's which take a lot more money to operate. Steenland said in his 787 addressment article that by the end of this decade with the 787's (and inferring the final deliveries of all the A330) will give NW an average age of it's heavy fleet of like 7.5 years. Big money comes with the heavies!
 
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RE: How Will Ch11 Affect NW's 18 Firm 787's?

Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:34 pm

The 787 and A330 orders should both be safe, as these aircraft will be part of NW's restructed business plan. These aircraft are a cost-effective replacement than what they currently operate. They are needed to build and maintain their international network. NW should/has been able to make the case to their creditors and the financial markets that these aircraft are a wise investment. They have the numbers to back it up. When an A330 has somewhere in the range of a 10-20% reduction in operating costs over a DC-10, its hard to argue with that.

Cancelling both these orders would only worsen their financial position. These aircraft will reduce operating costs.

The only orders that could be potentially deffered would be for any outstanding A319/A320 aircraft.
 
slider
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RE: How Will Ch11 Affect NW's 18 Firm 787's?

Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:38 pm

Quoting AirRyan (Thread starter):
NW is the North American launch customer for the 787 with 18 firm and 50 options.

Just a minor point of information- CO is the North American launch customer.

http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2004/q4/nr_041229g.html
 
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RE: How Will Ch11 Affect NW's 18 Firm 787's?

Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:40 pm

Quoting Slider (Reply 16):
Just a minor point of information- CO is the North American launch customer.

Technically I believe Primaris was first - although it remains to be seen if we ever see that order ever turn ito real metal.

But CO was the first US Major to order it
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slider
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RE: How Will Ch11 Affect NW's 18 Firm 787's?

Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:43 pm

Quoting Cornish (Reply 17):
But CO was the first US Major to order it

Thank you - I knew that and intentionally disregarded Primaris...CO was the first REAL, non-paper North Am. airline to order it.  Smile
 
AirRyan
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RE: How Will Ch11 Affect NW's 18 Firm 787's?

Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:59 pm

I just looked up on Airbus' website:

http://www.airbus.com/en/airbusfor/analysts/

They report that NW still has 9 A320's left on order and 23 A330's which will give them a total of 40! I didn't realize NW had ordered that many A330's but I agree with what has been said earlier, they are a crucial part of the companies longterm financial success with the revenue-generating international routes.

Quoting Slider (Reply 16):
Quoting AirRyan (Thread starter):
NW is the North American launch customer for the 787 with 18 firm and 50 options.

Just a minor point of information- CO is the North American launch customer.

http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/....html

While technically NW was slightly behind CO and Primaris, they ordered significantly more than they did and Boeing will be delivering the first 787 to a North American carrier at NW. They are all part of the 787 launch team but Northwest is now generally regarded as the North American luanch customer because they will be taking delivery of the 787 first, in August 2008 and I think NW will long be emerged from BK by then.

Quote:
Among the most recent customers is Northwest Airlines. The Eagan, Minn.–based airline and Boeing said last month that Northwest would order up to 68 Dreamliners. With its initial delivery in August 2008, Northwest will be the first North American carrier operating the 787.


Northwest's order caught the attention of aerospace industry observers.

Quote:
"Any order from an airline like Northwest is very important to the [787] program," said Craig Fraser, an aerospace analyst with Fitch Ratings, in an Associated Press report. "The fact that a U.S. airline would be placing an order in this environment indicates that the plane will add value to the company's operations." Also, in a St. Paul (Minn.) Pioneer Press article, J.B. Groh, an analyst with investment firm D.A. Davidson, said of the 787: "That plane has fantastic momentum. It's a revolutionary new design."

http://www.boeing.com/news/frontiers/archive/2005/june/cover.html

[Edited 2005-09-15 17:12:54]
 
A5XX
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RE: How Will Ch11 Affect NW's 18 Firm 787's?

Fri Sep 16, 2005 12:42 am

Quoting OHLHD (Reply 4):
Wasn´t the delivery of the AC A345 postponed as long as thy were under Ch.11?

There is no such thing as CH 11 in Canada. Bankruptcy laws in Canada, are totally different than the bankruptcy laws in the U.S.

Yves.
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eha
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RE: How Will Ch11 Affect NW's 18 Firm 787's?

Fri Sep 16, 2005 12:52 am

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 14):
I hope that is the case, because the 787 is litterally ideal for NW's Asian routes and the A330's are good money makers to their European routes as well. Perhpas NW might still replace their 747 classics with 747ADV's but that will likely be after they get their DC-9 replacement plan (E-190/5) set up. If NW could only take their 787's I'd be happy, let alone all of the aforementioned.

They still have 9 A319/A320 on order, 23 A330s.
They also have options for 76 A319/320.

One plan could be to firm up A319/A320 options to continue phasing out DC-9 models (still about 140 operated), use A330/787 to phase out their 747 fleet and reshape their international routes.

To give a sign where NW would go, it is worth to mention that none of their Airbus are in storage right now, while 52 of their oldest A/C are.

E.
 
AirRyan
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RE: How Will Ch11 Affect NW's 18 Firm 787's?

Fri Sep 16, 2005 1:00 am

Quoting Eha (Reply 21):
One plan could be to firm up A319/A320 options to continue phasing out DC-9 models (still about 140 operated), use A330/787 to phase out their 747 fleet and reshape their international routes.

I could see the 787/A330 fleets replacing the DC-10 and perhaps the 742's but I think NW is quite happy with their 16 744's.

Once they emerge from BK they may even buy 747ADV's to replace them but I don't see them getting rid of the 744's for something other than a modern 747. NW loves the publicity/status of operating a 744.

Also, NW Cargo ops is I believe turning a profit while still using the 742F's and so an upgrade to at least 744F like UPS just did if not 747F-ADV's may be in line as well, but again will most likely have to come after BK.
 
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RE: How Will Ch11 Affect NW's 18 Firm 787's?

Fri Sep 16, 2005 1:06 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 5):
I think NWA got a razor sharp deal on the 787, Boeing wanted NWA bad & NWA / Boeing will do the utmost the keep the deal alive. NWA don't have the kind of depths DL has.

You make it sound like Boeing was and still is desperate.

According to my NW Captain friend, it was NW who did the dealing for the 787. They were truely unimpressed with the A350 at that stage.

Now, I cannot verify this, but Bob is not one to lie.
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jacobin777
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RE: How Will Ch11 Affect NW's 18 Firm 787's?

Fri Sep 16, 2005 1:38 am

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 19):
I didn't realize NW had ordered that many A330's but I agree with what has been said earlier, they are a crucial part of the companies longterm financial success with the revenue-generating international routes.

I love NW's A330's..they are beautiful! That being said, with the potential of the 787's coming on board, I wonder if they are going to cancel some or part of their A330's and keep the smaller A319/A320 order..


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AirRyan
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RE: How Will Ch11 Affect NW's 18 Firm 787's?

Fri Sep 16, 2005 1:50 am

Quoting GARPD (Reply 23):
Quoting Keesje (Reply 5):
I think NWA got a razor sharp deal on the 787, Boeing wanted NWA bad & NWA / Boeing will do the utmost the keep the deal alive. NWA don't have the kind of depths DL has.

You make it sound like Boeing was and still is desperate.

According to my NW Captain friend, it was NW who did the dealing for the 787. They were truely unimpressed with the A350 at that stage.

Now, I cannot verify this, but Bob is not one to lie.

I should have articulated myself better, my intent was certainly not to make it sound like Boeing is/was despirate!

We all know how any company would like to sell their product and it's obvious that Boeing's 787 is selling itself quite well, but I was just pointing out how much NW wants the 787 as well as it will fit perfectly in with their route structure. Because of this they were willing to commit to 18 firm so Boeing made them the first North American customer to take delivery. I would not doubt what you say as exactly what happened - the A350 is not even official yet and the 787 is looking very, very promising.
 
Derik737
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RE: How Will Ch11 Affect NW's 18 Firm 787's?

Fri Sep 16, 2005 2:26 am

Quoting GARPD (Reply 23):
Quoting Keesje (Reply 5):
I think NWA got a razor sharp deal on the 787, Boeing wanted NWA bad & NWA / Boeing will do the utmost the keep the deal alive. NWA don't have the kind of depths DL has.

You make it sound like Boeing was and still is desperate.

According to my NW Captain friend, it was NW who did the dealing for the 787. They were truely unimpressed with the A350 at that stage.

Now, I cannot verify this, but Bob is not one to lie.

According to my NW Management friend, it was Boeing who provided the 787 financing and multiple years of deferred payments (8 years is what he told me). Now, I cannot verify this, but he is one not to lie as well. However, I am sure he just heard this like your captain friend.

In every airline there is always the ongoing "rumor machine" spitting out false info. Only the top financial folks and above at NW and Boeing know what the real deal is.
 
AirRyan
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RE: How Will Ch11 Affect NW's 18 Firm 787's?

Fri Sep 16, 2005 2:51 am

Quoting Derik737 (Reply 26):
it was Boeing who provided the 787 financing and multiple years of deferred payments (8 years is what he told me).

Wow, I think I could take five or ten 787's and start a new charter/starup airline and make money in 8 years enough to being making the payments!  Smile

I have the utmost confidence that NW will still take delivery of these 787's beginning in August of 2008 and they will soon become the fleet's most significnat revenue generator.
 
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RE: How Will Ch11 Affect NW's 18 Firm 787's?

Fri Sep 16, 2005 3:29 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 5):
I think NWA got a razor sharp deal on the 787, Boeing wanted NWA bad & NWA / Boeing will do the utmost the keep the deal alive. NWA don't have the kind of depths DL has.

Don't pass out Keesje, but for the 3rd time this year I agree with everything you said here.
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garpd
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RE: How Will Ch11 Affect NW's 18 Firm 787's?

Fri Sep 16, 2005 3:51 am

Quoting Derik737 (Reply 26):
According to my NW Management friend, it was Boeing who provided the 787 financing and multiple years of deferred payments (8 years is what he told me). Now, I cannot verify this, but he is one not to lie as well. However, I am sure he just heard this like your captain friend.

That certainly is interesting. My friend was unable to tell me anything so specific.
He is adomant though that NW was doing the "begging" so to speak. It was Boeing that was doing the bending over double to accomodate NW, can you back the Captain's claim up with the info your friend has?
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PHXinterrupted
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RE: How Will Ch11 Affect NW's 18 Firm 787's?

Fri Sep 16, 2005 3:58 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 5):
I think NWA got a razor sharp deal on the 787, Boeing wanted NWA bad & NWA / Boeing will do the utmost the keep the deal alive. NWA don't have the kind of depths DL has.

I think NW got an even better deal on their A330s.
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garpd
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RE: How Will Ch11 Affect NW's 18 Firm 787's?

Fri Sep 16, 2005 4:05 am

Quoting PHXinterrupted (Reply 30):

I think NW got an even better deal on their A330s.

Paid/Paying $60-70m per plane I'm told.
Of course, completely un verified, but as it's likely no one here has any verified and correct info... I thought I'd throw that in.
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whitehatter
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RE: How Will Ch11 Affect NW's 18 Firm 787's?

Fri Sep 16, 2005 4:08 am

NW will have a trump card to play on the new aircraft coming on stream. Whether they are Airbus or Boeing.

What they have to present to the court is the simple fact that these aircraft orders and their financing was done pre-bankruptcy. So to cancel them and then try and re-order later in the airline's progress would cost them considerably more (think TWA and the lease rates on the 717) as their credit rating will be impaired for a number of years. So to go forward with existing financing contracts would be cheaper in the short to medium term.

Aircraft wear out, routes change and markets shift. An airline cannot sit like a rock and not adapt to changing markets. Current NW acquisition plans have been made and financed with forecast demand foremost in mind, so outstanding longhaul aircraft in particular are an essential part of their future growth. Cancelling contracts now would lose them money now and cost even more later.

Assuming the contracts do not have a bankruptcy get-out clause for the financiers, that is....
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airfrnt
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RE: How Will Ch11 Affect NW's 18 Firm 787's?

Fri Sep 16, 2005 4:35 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 2):
NW will have the option to cancel (reject)the agreement to purchase the 787s...cancelling contracts is one of the provisions of bankruptcy. If NW wants to go ahead with the 787s, it will re-affirm the contract....time will tell.

In this case, NW has almost certainly put a deposit down on these planes. Even if the contract were rejcted, Boeing would be under little pressure to return the deposit.

Since the payments are so far out, I highly doubt that NW will ask the judge to reject this contract.

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 19):
They report that NW still has 9 A320's left on order and 23 A330's which will give them a total of 40! I didn't realize NW had ordered that many A330's but I agree with what has been said earlier, they are a crucial part of the companies longterm financial success with the revenue-generating international routes.

I would not be surprised to see NW reject the A320s on order. Unlike the 787 that is money that is due immediatly. At the least, I suggest that you will see some form of reduced order here.
 
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keesje
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RE: How Will Ch11 Affect NW's 18 Firm 787's?

Fri Sep 16, 2005 5:44 am

Quoting Derik737 (Reply 26):
According to my NW Management friend, it was Boeing who provided the 787 financing and multiple years of deferred payments (8 years is what he told me).

Now this is not the kind of info folks like PHX & Garp want to hear, please.

However it fits in my experience you have to come up with a real sharp offer to do any business with Minneapolis.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
M27
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RE: How Will Ch11 Affect NW's 18 Firm 787's?

Fri Sep 16, 2005 6:06 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 34):
Quoting Derik737 (Reply 26):
According to my NW Management friend, it was Boeing who provided the 787 financing and multiple years of deferred payments (8 years is what he told me).

Now this is not the kind of info folks like PHX & Garp want to hear, please.

However it fits in my experience you have to come up with a real sharp offer to do any business with Minneapolis.

Why then is Boeing not listed as one of the top 10 creditors if they are to provide financing?

http://yahoo.reuters.com/financeQuot...05-09-14_23-09-44_n14183182_newsml
 
Derik737
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RE: How Will Ch11 Affect NW's 18 Firm 787's?

Fri Sep 16, 2005 6:45 am

Quoting M27 (Reply 35):
Why then is Boeing not listed as one of the top 10 creditors if they are to provide financing?

Probably because since the airplane hasn't been delivered (it hasn't been built), there is no actual financing yet.

Like I said in my first post, my friend just heard this. He believed it from his source, who most likely believed it from their source and so on. You think airliners.net is a rumor mill? Work for an airline.  Smile
 
M27
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RE: How Will Ch11 Affect NW's 18 Firm 787's?

Fri Sep 16, 2005 7:15 am

Quoting Derik737 (Reply 36):
Probably because since the airplane hasn't been delivered (it hasn't been built), there is no actual financing yet.

Derik:

I understand what you are saying, and this well may be so: but if it is,how can it be said that Boeing is financing it? Maybe they just guaranteed there would be financing.

I am not trying to argue, I'm just wondering.

Regards
 
AirRyan
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RE: How Will Ch11 Affect NW's 18 Firm 787's?

Fri Sep 16, 2005 7:44 am

Quoting M27 (Reply 37):
but if it is,how can it be said that Boeing is financing it? Maybe they just guaranteed there would be financing.

I'm sure that is what it is - no need to pay for something that is 3 years away.
 
OHLHD
Posts: 2903
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2004 6:02 am

RE: How Will Ch11 Affect NW's 18 Firm 787's?

Fri Sep 16, 2005 8:30 am

Quoting A5XX (Reply 20):
Quoting OHLHD (Reply 4):
Wasn´t the delivery of the AC A345 postponed as long as thy were under Ch.11?

There is no such thing as CH 11 in Canada. Bankruptcy laws in Canada, are totally different than the bankruptcy laws in the U.S.

Yves.

Thx for the info. Did not know that.

How about my first question guys, is NW allowed under protection to take delivery of new aircrafts?
 
kulatict
Posts: 107
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 9:20 am

RE: How Will Ch11 Affect NW's 18 Firm 787's?

Fri Sep 16, 2005 9:30 am

heck, perhaps Airbus might pull a HP/US deal by providing an exit financing & throw in a few A350 to NW?
 
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glideslope
Posts: 1426
Joined: Sun May 30, 2004 8:06 pm

RE: How Will Ch11 Affect NW's 18 Firm 787's?

Fri Sep 16, 2005 9:58 am

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 27):
Wow, I think I could take five or ten 787's and start a new charter/starup airline and make money in 8 years enough to being making the payments!

Hey, just like B6 and Airbus!!!  Smile
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
Derik737
Posts: 262
Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 5:53 am

RE: How Will Ch11 Affect NW's 18 Firm 787's?

Fri Sep 16, 2005 11:24 am

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 38):
Quoting M27 (Reply 37):
but if it is,how can it be said that Boeing is financing it? Maybe they just guaranteed there would be financing.

I'm sure that is what it is - no need to pay for something that is 3 years away.

Exactly. The financing is most likely pre-arranged. Now, I am not sure what NW had to put down for deposits (and would have to continue as delivery gets closer). Most aircraft security deposit payments are spread out over time before actual delivery. We'll see if it plays out in the court system.
 
centrair
Posts: 2845
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2005 3:44 pm

RE: How Will Ch11 Affect NW's 18 Firm 787's?

Fri Sep 16, 2005 1:53 pm

To me I think NW needs the A320, A330 and the 787.

A320s are critical for replacing many DC9s, espcially for the routes connecting large domestic markets to DTW and MSP. They will probably keep some of their youngest DC9s for their shorter heavy regional flights. But when they can, I can see NW going for something like an E-190 to feed these markets.

The A332s are going for the smaller Pacific markets like PDX and SEA to Japan and Hawaii and replacing DC10s. The A333s are for European routes (on to India) again replacing the DC10s. This is critcal for maintaining profit and competing in the market.

To me I think NW will keep their 747s for their super heavy routes like MSP-NRT and DTW-NRT. But other routes could go to 787s. They can introduce frequency and thinner routes. I just get a strange feeling that NW will need these new aircraft to reinvent their Asian network.

They will need all these aircraft to be competitive and profitable when they leave BK. They will need to emerge as a totally different company with a clear vision and plan to maintain competition and become very profitable.
My name is Centrair but HND is closer. Let's Japanese Aviation!
 
Udo
Posts: 4288
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 5:16 pm

RE: How Will Ch11 Affect NW's 18 Firm 787's?

Fri Sep 16, 2005 4:24 pm

Quoting Glideslope (Reply 41):
Hey, just like B6 and Airbus!!!

Your jokes used to better in former times.


Regards
Udo
Me & You & a Plane Named Blue...
 
Udo
Posts: 4288
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 5:16 pm

RE: How Will Ch11 Affect NW's 18 Firm 787's?

Fri Sep 16, 2005 4:36 pm

Quoting PHXinterrupted (Reply 30):
I think NW got an even better deal on their A330s.

Considering the fact that the B777 didn't really match NW's transatlantic operation profile your "thought" is quite adventurous.


Regards
Udo
Me & You & a Plane Named Blue...
 
A330323X
Posts: 2666
Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2003 4:06 pm

RE: How Will Ch11 Affect NW's 18 Firm 787's?

Fri Sep 16, 2005 5:03 pm

Quoting OHLHD (Reply 39):
How about my first question guys, is NW allowed under protection to take delivery of new aircrafts?

I seem to think that buying new aircraft while under bankruptcy protection is quite difficult; leasing them I believe is rather easier, but still not necessarily a cakewalk. US bought a few new RJs during their current bankruptcy, and they had to jump through some hoops and structure the financings as leases in order to get them done.

So yes, I think that if NW really wants some new planes during the time they're in Chapter 11, they'll be able to get them in one way or another, though it might require some creativity and perhaps some sub-optimal financing.
I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.

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