squirrel83
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Chances Of NW & DL Emerging From Bankruptcy?

Thu Sep 15, 2005 6:21 pm

IN Result of the following article, im looking for comments and also what are the chances of NW & DL Emerging from bankruptcy? How long?

http://news.airwise.com/story/view/1126766104.html
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solnabo
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RE: Chances Of NW & DL Emerging From Bankruptcy?

Thu Sep 15, 2005 6:36 pm

I read that DL to sell 11 of their widebodys to a freighter carrier called ABX air.

source: www.flygtorget.se *in swedish*

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ltbewr
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RE: Chances Of NW & DL Emerging From Bankruptcy?

Thu Sep 15, 2005 6:59 pm

I would suggest that the chances are good, with conditions. Another 9/11 level event would be the worst possible situation. The general economy of the USA will continue to be affected by oil prices remaining at current high levels for the forseeable future and could get worse. The costs and effects of Hurricane Katrina will hurt the economy for a while at one level, and still lead to long-term economic issues. The war in Iraq continues to be damaging to the USA economy.
As I have stated elsewhere, I still believe there needs to be hearings in the USA's Congressional and Senate committees to try and figure out what to do with our current airline situation. We need to find innovative ways that will keep our airline network working as we need it for our economy to be strong. We need to prevent the race to the bottom as to wages and benefits in the industry. We need some way to pare back excess capacity across the industry including perhaps limiting expansion of LCC's recognizing that we need full network legacies and their subsidies for the economy of the USA and to assure basic air services to many smaller markets.
 
Arniepie
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RE: Chances Of NW & DL Emerging From Bankruptcy?

Thu Sep 15, 2005 7:00 pm

I suspect NW whent into bankrupty protection to reform and redeal some things which they otherwise couldn't do.
DAL I'm afraid they are in more severe troubles.

as for the sale of widebody's, don't they still have some MD11 in storage maybe those are the planes together with some 767's.
[edit post]
 
COSPN
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RE: Chances Of NW & DL Emerging From Bankruptcy?

Thu Sep 15, 2005 7:35 pm

they are 767's to DHL ABX is the US operator for DHL
 
COSPN
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RE: Chances Of NW & DL Emerging From Bankruptcy?

Thu Sep 15, 2005 7:37 pm

from www.justplanes.com

ABX Air
ABX Air has agreed to buy 11 Boeing 767-200s from Delta Air Lines. The aircraft will be converted from passenger to cargo configuration more than likely by Israerl Aircraft Industries. The agreement calls for delivery of 6 aircraft in 2006, 2 in 2007 and 3 in 2008.
 
Arniepie
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RE: Chances Of NW & DL Emerging From Bankruptcy?

Thu Sep 15, 2005 7:53 pm

Quoting COSPN (Reply 5):
ABX Air has agreed to buy 11 Boeing 767-200s from Delta Air Lines

Airplanes that are currently in the desert or planes that will be taken out of active duty and as such also reduce capacity?
[edit post]
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Chances Of NW & DL Emerging From Bankruptcy?

Thu Sep 15, 2005 8:18 pm

NW has some cash and assets to borrow against. DL? They have it tougher due to their level of leveraging. Can they find buyers for the remaining RJ's/RJ divisions? If so, they too have a chance. If not...  Sad

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727LOVER
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RE: Chances Of NW & DL Emerging From Bankruptcy?

Fri Sep 16, 2005 2:46 am

I tawt I taw a lame-ass remark,....

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 2):
We need some way to pare back excess capacity across the industry including perhaps limiting expansion of LCC's

I DID! I DID see a lame-ass remark!!!



Yeah bud, keep legacy carriers deregulated, but lets regulate LCCs. Who's your LSD supplier?
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AirRyan
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RE: Chances Of NW & DL Emerging From Bankruptcy?

Fri Sep 16, 2005 2:53 am

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 8):
Yeah bud, keep legacy carriers deregulated, but lets regulate LCCs. Who's your LSD supplier?

Probably the US Government!  Silly
 
norcal
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RE: Chances Of NW & DL Emerging From Bankruptcy?

Fri Sep 16, 2005 2:54 am

what happens to the stock during Chapter 11?
 
starrion
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RE: Chances Of NW & DL Emerging From Bankruptcy?

Fri Sep 16, 2005 2:58 am

During CH11, the stock can be expected to fluctuate wildly. Once the final BK plan is entered the stock will be cancelled. It's sort of like musical chairs except with money. The last one holding the stock when it gets cancelled loses.
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toltommy
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RE: Chances Of NW & DL Emerging From Bankruptcy?

Fri Sep 16, 2005 3:02 am

Quoting ArniePie (Reply 6):
Airplanes that are currently in the desert or planes that will be taken out of active duty and as such also reduce capacity?

Delta recently announced that all 767-200's will be withdrawn from service effective with the December schedule. They called it their "least efficient widebody". Don't know if any are currently parked.
 
kaitak
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RE: Chances Of NW & DL Emerging From Bankruptcy?

Fri Sep 16, 2005 3:07 am

These are the aircraft being sold to ABX. DL needs to standardise and rationale its fleet - although probably not quite as much as NW! However, this is only half the battle. A lot of it will happen at government level. This business of having four airlines in bankruptcy is not good for the industry as a whole and it's unfair on the carriers that are doing "OK" or better - the remaining legacy carriers and the low cost carriers.

Sooner or later, however much we might want to avoid it, a legacy carrier is going to have to go; there simply isn't the market so support so many carriers.
 
DAYflyer
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RE: Chances Of NW & DL Emerging From Bankruptcy?

Fri Sep 16, 2005 3:25 am

I think the chances of emerging from ch 11 are pretty good, once the horrible debt loads are in order. They are both solid airlines (operationally speaking) and they have excellent reputations and a good customer base(for the most part).

They need to get the revenue to expense ratios way down, and do so quickly.
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RE: Chances Of NW & DL Emerging From Bankruptcy?

Fri Sep 16, 2005 4:15 am

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 13):
A lot of it will happen at government level. This business of having four airlines in bankruptcy is not good for the industry as a whole and it's unfair on the carriers that are doing "OK" or better - the remaining legacy carriers and the low cost carriers.

I don't think a lot of it will happen at the government level. What the government already does - providing bankruptcy protection - doesn't help. If UA had been allowed to die a natural death, by now there'd be less capacity in the industry, and some one else would be operating whatever UA assets could have been operated successfully.
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RE: Chances Of NW & DL Emerging From Bankruptcy?

Fri Sep 16, 2005 4:19 am

From the AirWise article:

Quote:
"It's recognizing where you make money, and being willing to shrink and move the business very quickly," said Bromley, identifying the key points of a successful reorganization.

I think he got it in one. The task ahead for Delta and NW management is to recognize what they do well, and cut back everything else.
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NYCAAer
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RE: Chances Of NW & DL Emerging From Bankruptcy?

Fri Sep 16, 2005 7:04 am

I think both DL and NW each have a 100% chance of exiting Chapter 11 with great success. I don't expect either one to file for Chapter 7. It makes it tougher for the airlines not operating in bankruptcy to compete, so it levels the playing field, whehter it's fair or not.
 
comorin
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RE: Chances Of NW & DL Emerging From Bankruptcy?

Fri Sep 16, 2005 7:58 am

The chances of DL and NW emerging from Bankruptcy are not predictable as they depend on a combination of external factors:

1. Oil Price -If this remains equivalent to $100/bl including crack spread, then they would need to write off pensions, radically restructure debt, sell off domestic operations to be viable.

2. Pension Reform: The US tax payer takes over $15B in unfunded liabilities. This may not be enough to compensate for generate operating profits under a hi-oil scenario.

3. Capacity: 50% of US seats are on bankrupt airlines. Unless capacity declines, recovery will be difficult.

Summarizing, the chances are

1. If nothing changes, DL and NW cannot pull out of their nosedive.
2. If Pensions are taken over, Delta still in trouble, but some hope for NW.
3. If Pensions taken over, major debt restructuring, NW success, DL has a chance.
4. If Pension + Debt restructures, and fuel price falls drastically, DL and NW will survive.

The Klingon in me says that Delta heads to the Chop Shop, and a leaner NW gets acquired.

Caveat - All this is just conjecture and opinion ...
 
NYCAAer
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RE: Chances Of NW & DL Emerging From Bankruptcy?

Fri Sep 16, 2005 8:09 am

Some pilots I've been flying with on my trips seem to think the same thing as you, Comorin, that it doesn't look good at all for Delta. Time will tell how all this plays out. The whole thing is a mess. Maybe we should just put all the legacy carriers to death in the United States and start all over again!  Smile
 
Dalmd88
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RE: Chances Of NW & DL Emerging From Bankruptcy?

Fri Sep 16, 2005 9:24 am

The large problem at DL is debt. Our debt service is what is really killing us. If fuel had stayed low we might have eeked by with a little help on the pension front. In BK the debt service can be greatly reduced and maybe congress will pass the pension reform bill. We have been told DL has a plan and it will be inplace quickly. Upper management is telling us this will be a quick proccess so be ready for the ride.
 
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RE: Chances Of NW & DL Emerging From Bankruptcy?

Fri Sep 16, 2005 12:54 pm

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 12):
Delta recently announced that all 767-200's will be withdrawn from service effective with the December schedule

How many of these does DL operate? And how many models of the 767 are there? I see DL and HA 767s every day and the HA plane is noticeably longer, maybe larger than DL's. Also looks newer.
 
incitatus
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RE: Chances Of NW & DL Emerging From Bankruptcy?

Fri Sep 16, 2005 1:03 pm

NW will be absorbed into another airline. They are not a viable carrier:
- Hub in MEM has no local traffic.
- Hub in MSP does not have enough local traffic.
- Hub in NRT is losing value by the day as airlines such as AA and CO keep adding beyond Japan nonstops.
- Their transatlantic presence is small in spite of a super alliance with KLM.
- Their Latin American presence is nil.

So.... The only viable hub is DTW. MSP can get St.Louis'd.

They can't survive on their own.
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AirRyan
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RE: Chances Of NW & DL Emerging From Bankruptcy?

Fri Sep 16, 2005 1:11 pm

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 22):
NW will be absorbed into another airline. They are not a viable carrier:
- Hub in MEM has no local traffic.
- Hub in MSP does not have enough local traffic.
- Hub in NRT is losing value by the day as airlines such as AA and CO keep adding beyond Japan nonstops.
- Their transatlantic presence is small in spite of a super alliance with KLM.
- Their Latin American presence is nil.

So.... The only viable hub is DTW. MSP can get St.Louis'd.

They can't survive on their own.

With all due respect your full of it. NW will not only emerge from Ch11 sooner than DL but they will do so with a business plan that will allow them to become stronger than any other US carrier that actually flies overseas. NW's prescense in Asia is strong and I don't know what you refer to by "local traffic" but NW has been doing fine in MSP since they started back in 1926.

I don't know what you penchant against NW but don't let it cloud your judgement - NW will be turning a profit and out of Ch11 before August of 2008 when they take delivery of their first 787.
 
incitatus
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RE: Chances Of NW & DL Emerging From Bankruptcy?

Fri Sep 16, 2005 1:40 pm

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 23):
With all due respect your full of it.

That statement and everything else that follows has no vestige of rationality.
I have nothing against Northwest, but here is the recipe to counter any of my arguments:
- Please show that MEM is a large air travel market when compared to other hubs or non-hubs of medium sized cities, eg, New Orleans, Tampa, Nashville, Raleigh.
- Please show that MSP is well located for a hub. Don't forget the US population is slowly drifting Southwest.
- Please show that MSP is not redundant with DTW for most east-west markets that matter.
- Please show that NW is a major transatlantic player that would have more than half a dozen flights in that market were it not for KLM.
- Please show that hubbing in NRT is a winning strategy in the long run.
- Please show NW's plans to go into Latin America.

NW has interesting assets to be absorbed by another airline. Not to survive as an independent carrier.
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AirRyan
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RE: Chances Of NW & DL Emerging From Bankruptcy?

Fri Sep 16, 2005 1:44 pm

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 24):
Quoting AirRyan (Reply 23):
With all due respect your full of it.

That statement and everything else that follows has no vestige of rationality.
I have nothing against Northwest, but here is the recipe to counter any of my arguments:
- Please show that MEM is a large air travel market when compared to other hubs or non-hubs of medium sized cities, eg, New Orleans, Tampa, Nashville, Raleigh.
- Please show that MSP is well located for a hub. Don't forget the US population is slowly drifting Southwest.
- Please show that MSP is not redundant with DTW for most east-west markets that matter.
- Please show that NW is a major transatlantic player that would have more than half a dozen flights in that market were it not for KLM.
- Please show that hubbing in NRT is a winning strategy in the long run.
- Please show NW's plans to go into Latin America.

NW has interesting assets to be absorbed by another airline. Not to survive as an independent carrier.

Better yet - why don't you show me the numbers because you already appear to have them. I work for NW and let's just say we don't share your "optimisim" here in Eagan.
 
incitatus
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RE: Chances Of NW & DL Emerging From Bankruptcy?

Fri Sep 16, 2005 2:10 pm

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 25):
Better yet - why don't you show me the numbers because you already appear to have them. I work for NW and let's just say we don't share your "optimisim" here in Eagan.

I made several points. You made none except saying I'm "full of it".

MEM is the smallest market in the US that is still a hub.

The geographic center of the US population can be found in
http://www.census.gov/geo/www/cenpop/meanctr.pdf
The map shows a very large percentage of the US population is not interested in connecting in MSP. Those who might be will gladly take DTW instead.

NW's presence in transatlantic routes outside of AMS should be less than 3 daily flights this Winter. Did I count that right? Amazing.

American is opening NGO, KIX, PVG and DEL almost at the same time. CO is aggressively pursuing an Asian expansion too with EWR to HKG/PVG/PEK.

Regarding NW expansion in Latin America, I couldn't find any evidence. I believe there _is_ no evidence.

Like I said I have nothing against NW. I realize my assessment is rather cold. But I'm not saying the company will be liquidated. I'm saying the logo on the paychecks and tails will be a different one.
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Cubsrule
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RE: Chances Of NW & DL Emerging From Bankruptcy?

Fri Sep 16, 2005 10:43 pm

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 26):
Regarding NW expansion in Latin America, I couldn't find any evidence. I believe there _is_ no evidence.

Why (besides the fact that you are Brazillian) is there a need to expand in L.A. to be successful?
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blackearth
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RE: Chances Of NW & DL Emerging From Bankruptcy?

Fri Sep 16, 2005 10:51 pm

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 24):
- Please show that MEM is a large air travel market when compared to other hubs or non-hubs of medium sized cities, eg, New Orleans, Tampa, Nashville, Raleigh.

Of course, compared to Memphis, New Orleans and Tampa are in another league (tourism).

Regarding Nashville and Raleigh, I doubt if either city had any more O/D than Memphis presently does when they were both AA hubs.

Hubs depress O/D--locals drive to another city with LCC service, or choose an alternate means of travel altogether.

Put Southwest in Memphis if and when NWA leaves and O/D will soar--just as it did in Nashville and Raleigh.
 
coa764
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RE: Chances Of NW & DL Emerging From Bankruptcy?

Fri Sep 16, 2005 11:16 pm

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 26):
NW's presence in transatlantic routes outside of AMS should be less than 3 daily flights this Winter. Did I count that right? Amazing.

American is opening NGO, KIX, PVG and DEL almost at the same time. CO is aggressively pursuing an Asian expansion too with EWR to HKG/PVG/PEK.

Regarding NW expansion in Latin America, I couldn't find any evidence. I believe there _is_ no evidence.

Like I said I have nothing against NW. I realize my assessment is rather cold. But I'm not saying the company will be liquidated. I'm saying the logo on the paychecks and tails will be a different one.

That is the reason for the code share agreement with COA, all the benefits of being able to sell seats on a complimenting network without the associated cost of merging the two companies.
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burnsie28
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RE: Chances Of NW & DL Emerging From Bankruptcy?

Fri Sep 16, 2005 11:32 pm

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 24):
- Please show that MEM is a large air travel market when compared to other hubs or non-hubs of medium sized cities, eg, New Orleans, Tampa, Nashville, Raleigh.

Other then New Orleans and Tampa, MEM isnt much different then Nashville and Raleigh.

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 24):
- Please show that MSP is well located for a hub. Don't forget the US population is slowly drifting Southwest

What does that matter, think people from Wisconsin, North Daktota, South Dakota, Iowa, Illinois, etc want to go east to go west?

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 24):
- Please show that MSP is not redundant with DTW for most east-west markets that matter.

MSP is a busier airport then DTW. MSP serves many, many routes that DTW doesnt serve, in the Dakotas, Iowa, Montana, pretty much many western destinations.

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 24):
- Please show that NW is a major transatlantic player that would have more than half a dozen flights in that market were it not for KLM.

4X-5X daily DTW-AMS, 3X MSP-AMS, 1x MSP-LGW, 1xDTW-LGW, 1x DTW-CDG, 1x DTW-FCO, 1x DTW-FRA, 1x SEA-AMS, 1x MEM-AMS, etc. What does it matter flights operated by KLM over the ocean, of those coming from North America all flights are split 50/50 with revenue.

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 24):
- Please show that hubbing in NRT is a winning strategy in the long run.

NW says they will overly the NRT with the 787s etc. But a very large percentage of people flying out of NRT to other cities is in fact local traffic, originating from NRT.

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 24):
- Please show NW's plans to go into Latin America.

They dont need to go to Latin America, so what does it matter, the market is really over saturated and NW does not see the point of going there.

NW is more likely to take over another airline then someone take over NW.
 
incitatus
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RE: Chances Of NW & DL Emerging From Bankruptcy?

Fri Sep 16, 2005 11:51 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 27):
Why (besides the fact that you are Brazillian) is there a need to expand in L.A. to be successful?

I didn't say "need". It's part of being successful. CO and DL grasped it, NW didn't. If everything else was right for NW and they didn't expand in Latin America, they'd do fine. The fact that I am Brazilian is irrelevant, I might as well use the US flag if that changes the perception of my comments.

Quoting Blackearth (Reply 28):
Of course, compared to Memphis, New Orleans and Tampa are in another league (tourism).

Exactly.

Quoting Blackearth (Reply 28):
Hubs depress O/D--locals drive to another city with LCC service, or choose an alternate means of travel altogether.

Put Southwest in Memphis if and when NWA leaves and O/D will soar--just as it did in Nashville and Raleigh.

Local traffic will not "soar". It will go up but there is price to pay with fewer flights and fewer destinations. That drives away businesses. If MEM thought trading NW by WN was good for them, they would have already done it.
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viscount
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RE: Chances Of NW & DL Emerging From Bankruptcy?

Sat Sep 17, 2005 12:07 am

Can you imagine how much NW would have saved in fuel and maintenance costs if they'd replaced their ageing DC9s and DC10s a while back?
 
AirRyan
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RE: Chances Of NW & DL Emerging From Bankruptcy?

Sat Sep 17, 2005 12:48 am

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 26):
MEM is the smallest market in the US that is still a hub.

It's a hub first and foremost because of FedEx - they operate more flights from MEM than anyone.

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 31):
Quoting Blackearth (Reply 28):
Of course, compared to Memphis, New Orleans and Tampa are in another league (tourism).

Exactly.

New Orleans? I think the future markets of New Orleans are bleak at best.

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 30):
NW is more likely to take over another airline then someone take over NW.

That's exactly as how I see it.

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 30):
Quoting Incitatus (Reply 24):
- Please show that NW is a major transatlantic player that would have more than half a dozen flights in that market were it not for KLM.

4X-5X daily DTW-AMS, 3X MSP-AMS, 1x MSP-LGW, 1xDTW-LGW, 1x DTW-CDG, 1x DTW-FCO, 1x DTW-FRA, 1x SEA-AMS, 1x MEM-AMS, etc. What does it matter flights operated by KLM over the ocean, of those coming from North America all flights are split 50/50 with revenue.

Keep in mind that NW already began replacing the DC-10's years ago with the A330. They currently have 17 of them with 23 more still on order. In my opinion, NW's 787 order is the most solid closely followed by their A330 orders. Short term we may see a temp decrease in European traffic but like mentioned that is in part due to KLM being that as a codeshare partner.

If your this pessimistic Inciatatus about NW I can't imagine your opinions on DL given they are in a much worse condition!
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Chances Of NW & DL Emerging From Bankruptcy?

Sat Sep 17, 2005 1:13 am

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 31):
I didn't say "need". It's part of being successful. CO and DL grasped it, NW didn't.

DL is in b/k... CO isn't. Where's the correlation? Heck, UA has dismantled much of the Latin American operation they got from PA (ex-MIA)... is that a bad business decision too?
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incitatus
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RE: Chances Of NW & DL Emerging From Bankruptcy?

Sat Sep 17, 2005 2:04 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 34):
DL is in b/k... CO isn't. Where's the correlation? Heck, UA has dismantled much of the Latin American operation they got from PA (ex-MIA)... is that a bad business decision too?

If you need correlation, try AA and CO are #1 and #2 in the US-LATAM market and are the only two network carriers outside of Bk. UA trashed the network inherited from PanAm.

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 33):
If your this pessimistic Incitatus about NW I can't imagine your opinions on DL given they are in a much worse condition!

DL may eventually come out of bankruptcy as DL. DL has better located hubs and is much larger.

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 30):
MSP is a busier airport then DTW. MSP serves many, many routes that DTW doesnt serve, in the Dakotas, Iowa, Montana, pretty much many western destinations.

Come on! What percentage of the US population lives in those states?

MSP as a metro area is about the size of STL. If DL and NW merge, ATL and DTW will be major hubs. MSP and SLC will be minor hubs or large focus cities with RJ banks.
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blackearth
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RE: Chances Of NW & DL Emerging From Bankruptcy?

Sat Sep 17, 2005 4:30 am

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 31):
Quoting Blackearth (Reply 28):
Hubs depress O/D--locals drive to another city with LCC service, or choose an alternate means of travel altogether.

Put Southwest in Memphis if and when NWA leaves and O/D will soar--just as it did in Nashville and Raleigh.

Local traffic will not "soar". It will go up but there is price to pay with fewer flights and fewer destinations. That drives away businesses. If MEM thought trading NW by WN was good for them, they would have already done it.

Both Nashville and Raleigh have boomed business-wise since AA pulled out.

I'm not saying at all that the pullout caused that boom.

What I am saying is that the pullout was irrelevant to their business boom.

As far as "trading NW by WN", that's not up to a city. That's up to the airline.
 
blackearth
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RE: Chances Of NW & DL Emerging From Bankruptcy?

Sat Sep 17, 2005 4:38 am

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 33):
It's a hub first and foremost because of FedEx - they operate more flights from MEM than anyone.

I'm probably missing something here, but what does the fact of Memphis being a FedEx hub have to do with it being a passenger hub for NWA? MEM was a passenger hub for the old Southern Airways since the early 70's, way before FedEx, then a hub for Republic, then NWA.

Would it have something to do with some landing fees, in the sense that the airport is well-financed due to FedEx, and thus able to offer competitive rates to NWA?

Just curious.
 
burnsie28
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RE: Chances Of NW & DL Emerging From Bankruptcy?

Sat Sep 17, 2005 4:53 am

Quoting Viscount (Reply 32):
Can you imagine how much NW would have saved in fuel and maintenance costs if they'd replaced their ageing DC9s and DC10s a while back?

Actually they would have loss more money, as leasing a new airplane and its minor maintnance was found to cost more then what it would to fuel and maint an owned aircraft. Though the DC-10 is borderline.

Quoting Blackearth (Reply 37):
Would it have something to do with some landing fees, in the sense that the airport is well-financed due to FedEx, and thus able to offer competitive rates to NWA?

Well sorta, Fedex actually provides A LOT of traffic to NW.
 
HPRamper
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RE: Chances Of NW & DL Emerging From Bankruptcy?

Sat Sep 17, 2005 7:25 am

MSP is a smaller local market #16 among US metro areas as opposed to Detroit's #9, but I thought I read a report that it has a greater percentage of O&D traffic due to its catchment area vs. DTW. Look at DTW, other airports in the area that will probably draw pax away include GRR, FNT, LAN, TOL, even CLE is only 170 miles away. Then take a look at MSP...you have MSP and then you have..DSM? And that's about 240 miles away. Next is probably MKE at about 340 miles away.

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