lowecur
Posts: 512
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 1:18 pm

190 At New US Airways

Sat Sep 17, 2005 10:28 pm

One of the pilot websites is reporting that the 190 scope was passed by the AWA MEC and negotiating committee. It needs to go to the membership for ratification. This will keep it out of the hands of the regionals:

Negotiating Committee Update - September 16, 2005
From: Mark Burdick, Negotiating Committee Chairman
To: All AWA Pilots

On behalf of your MEC and Negotiating Committee, I am pleased to announce that the final Transition Agreement passed during today's MEC meeting. The section regarding EMB 190 rates will go out to the membership for a ratification vote in accordance with MEC policy.

On Monday, we will distribute an analysis outlining the protections that have been captured with the agreement. Stay tuned for more details.
 
flyboyaz
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RE: 190 At New US Airways

Sun Sep 18, 2005 1:54 am

That's pretty cool. It will at least allow our own pilots to fly smaller planes. I think having a 100 seat plane is a good idea. There is too much of a gap between the CR9 and the A319...86 vs. 124 seats.
Catch a ride on a smile!
 
PPVRA
Posts: 7878
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RE: 190 At New US Airways

Sun Sep 18, 2005 1:56 am

Cool, any speculation on how many they could order?

Cheers
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
jmc1975
Posts: 2897
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RE: 190 At New US Airways

Sun Sep 18, 2005 4:13 am

Quoting Flyboyaz (Reply 1):
There is too much of a gap between the CR9 and the A319...86 vs. 124 seats.

It'll likely be closer to the capacity of the CR9....I would guess it to be a 94 seater (6F/88Y). It will have superior performance to the CR9 and will suit many HP/US routes perfectly. Perhaps IFE could even be added. Here are a handful of potential routes for the US E90:

PHX-MSN
PHX-YEG
PHX-MLI
PHX-BTR
PHL-SAT
PHL-AUS
PHL-OKC
CLT-ABQ
.......
 
flyboyaz
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RE: 190 At New US Airways

Sun Sep 18, 2005 8:10 am

Quoting Jmc1975 (Reply 3):
It'll likely be closer to the capacity of the CR9....I would guess it to be a 94 seater (6F/88Y).

That kinda sucks...maybe the 195 would be better then...would hold 106 with a 2 class layout 8F/98C.
Catch a ride on a smile!
 
wjcandee
Posts: 5188
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

RE: 190 At New US Airways

Sun Sep 18, 2005 8:37 am

Quoting Flyboyaz (Reply 1):
It will at least allow our own pilots to fly smaller planes.

As one of your passengers, let me tell you how much better I feel flying with pilots trained, organized, monitored and managed and paid under a mainline structure. Wouldn't have been before watching the Pinnacle inquiry, but it was pretty clear from that hearing that the depth and capabilities of the organization at a mainline legacy carrier is far different from even the better of the regionals.

Flame away, guys. You didn't sit through that hearing like I did. Even ALPA (especially ALPA) had criticisms of the management and management structure at Pinnacle.

[Edited 2005-09-18 01:51:50]
 
jmc1975
Posts: 2897
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RE: 190 At New US Airways

Sun Sep 18, 2005 8:42 am

Quoting Flyboyaz (Reply 4):
That kinda sucks...maybe the 195 would be better then...would hold 106 with a 2 class layout 8F/98C.

Actually the 190 would be much more well-suited for HP/US for the following reasons:

1. Better range (1800nm vs. 1400nm) and hot/high performance.

2. Lower unit CASM (3rd FA required on 195).

3. Shorter fuselage by 8 feet (195 could create aircraft movement procedure challeges at some airports).

4. Ideal aircraft for PHX-TUS and LAS-TUS runs.  Smile


Keep in mind, US A319s seat 120 pax. Ideally the 190s would fly for mainline, eliminating the need for Mesa CR9s.
.......
 
FutureFO
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RE: 190 At New US Airways

Sun Sep 18, 2005 8:51 am

Actually the 190 is all ready on order for Republic. They are to eventually be based out of FLL for the Carribean routes.


Sean from MCO
I Don't know where I am anymore
 
DLKAPA
Posts: 7962
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RE: 190 At New US Airways

Sun Sep 18, 2005 8:57 am

Quoting FutureFO (Reply 7):
Actually the 190 is all ready on order for Republic. They are to eventually be based out of FLL for the Carribean routes.

Better find another paintscheme for it, cause if it's owned by Repubic, it ain't gonna be wearing the US colors  Wink
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
LUVRSW
Posts: 481
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RE: 190 At New US Airways

Sun Sep 18, 2005 9:07 am

Look for NW to do this to Mesaba and Pinnacle, I'm sure the NW pilots just layed off would gladly fly a CRJ.
 
EMBQA
Posts: 7798
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RE: 190 At New US Airways

Sun Sep 18, 2005 9:49 am

Quoting FutureFO (Reply 7):
Actually the 190 is all ready on order for Republic.

Really...?? That's news to me, and I'm sure it's news to the folks down in San Jose de Campos.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
ouboy79
Posts: 4113
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RE: 190 At New US Airways

Sun Sep 18, 2005 1:17 pm

Quoting DLKAPA (Reply 8):
Quoting FutureFO (Reply 7):
Actually the 190 is all ready on order for Republic. They are to eventually be based out of FLL for the Carribean routes.

Better find another paintscheme for it, cause if it's owned by Repubic, it ain't gonna be wearing the US colors

Like he said...US Airways and AWA pilots, I believe, have both agreed that the E-190 will be flown as a MAINLINE aircraft. The CRJ-900 can still be outsourced however, for now. AWA ALPA also wants to get the 170 back in house...so we'll see what happens.
 
A330323X
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RE: 190 At New US Airways

Sun Sep 18, 2005 1:34 pm

Quoting Ouboy79 (Reply 11):
The CRJ-900 can still be outsourced however, for now.

For now, and forever. And they blew the lid off that part of the scope clause, too. US/HP can now have up to 93 CRJ-900s outsourced.

What, you didn't think that bringing the EMB-190s inhouse was going to come for free, did you?  Silly
I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
 
AirRyan
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RE: 190 At New US Airways

Sun Sep 18, 2005 2:00 pm

Interesting because I believe NW wants to buy E-190/5 type aircraft to replace their DC-9's but only pay the pilots who fly them wages less that than of a mainline carrier.
 
Sean-SAN-
Posts: 693
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RE: 190 At New US Airways

Sun Sep 18, 2005 2:20 pm

Good news to hear. We needed this badly to stay competitive with JetBlue on the east. Also, it would be very good for several routes in the west, like LAS-YVR, LAS-BUR etc.
 
m404
Posts: 1875
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RE: 190 At New US Airways

Sun Sep 18, 2005 2:24 pm

Good news. Like AirRyan I'm wondering about the implications for NW. Am sure this capacity of aircraft is desired and would hope that some of the 50 seaters can be returned or deliveries changed. I'm even wondering if ALPA can get this acft size in their scope will the company then try and have them worked by the cheaper regional ground crews anyway.
Less sarcasm and more thought equal better understanding
 
SonOfACaptain
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RE: 190 At New US Airways

Sun Sep 18, 2005 2:26 pm

Quoting FutureFO (Reply 7):
Actually the 190 is all ready on order for Republic

Where did you hear this from??? Repugnant does not have any US 190 order. Heck, they can't even take anymore 170s from US currently.

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 13):
Interesting because I believe NW wants to buy E-190/5 type aircraft to replace their DC-9's but only pay the pilots who fly them wages less that than of a mainline carrier.

The pay at US would be competitive with regional pay, just flown under the mainline division.

-SOAC
Non Illegitimi Carborundum
 
A330323X
Posts: 2666
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RE: 190 At New US Airways

Sun Sep 18, 2005 3:35 pm

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 13):
Interesting because I believe NW wants to buy E-190/5 type aircraft to replace their DC-9's but only pay the pilots who fly them wages less that than of a mainline carrier.



Quoting SonOfACaptain (Reply 16):
The pay at US would be competitive with regional pay, just flown under the mainline division.

The US EMB-190 payscale is about 10% higher than JetBlue's.
I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
 
uncgso
Posts: 241
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RE: 190 At New US Airways

Sun Sep 18, 2005 4:21 pm

Will it make PHX/LAS-GSO?? Am waiting for the day an airline tries GSO instead of RDU. Will be great to see people drive from RDU to catch a flight in Greensboro...
 
ATWZW170
Posts: 755
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RE: 190 At New US Airways

Sun Sep 18, 2005 10:27 pm

The 190 I don't believe is going to be a mainline plane. The RFP that US Airways sent to ZW was for 25 190 or 17 CRJ900 planes. There would have to be a swap, one 190 for a CRJ200...so the fleets wouldn't grow...but I'd much rather see a 190 rather than a CRJ!!
Success is getting what you want...happiness is liking what you get
 
FutureFO
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RE: 190 At New US Airways

Sun Sep 18, 2005 10:57 pm

SOAC,

Republic is taking over all the Mid-Atlantic jets that are all ready delivered as well as the ones that are still sitting in Brazil. Don't know where you got your information.


Sean
I Don't know where I am anymore
 
EMBQA
Posts: 7798
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RE: 190 At New US Airways

Sun Sep 18, 2005 11:12 pm

Quoting FutureFO (Reply 20):
Don't know where you got your information.

I'd say he got it from his Dad who is a pilot for MAA...and he is correct. Republic picked up the 3 Embraer 170's that were sitting in San Jose de Campos for Mid Atlantic (deliverys were frozen after the second USAirways bankruptcy) and that has been it so far. No other MAA -170's have transferred over yet. Also, as was said above Republic has NO -190's on order.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
mrocktor
Posts: 1391
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RE: 190 At New US Airways

Mon Sep 19, 2005 12:35 am

Quoting Jmc1975 (Reply 6):
1. Better range (1800nm vs. 1400nm) and hot/high performance.

190LR range: 2200nm
195LR range: 1800nm
190AR range: 2300nm
195AR range: 2100nm

Not sure how hot/high performance compares, though the 190 is most likely better as you said - despite the 195's more powerful engines.

mrocktor
 
CRJ900
Posts: 1944
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RE: 190 At New US Airways

Mon Sep 19, 2005 1:27 am

Quoting Jmc1975 (Reply 3):
It will have superior performance to the CR9

I though that the CR9 is a very economical airplane, otherwise Mesa wouldn't have ordered 45 of them...?
Come, fly the prevailing winds with me
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
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RE: 190 At New US Airways

Mon Sep 19, 2005 1:34 am

Quoting DLKAPA (Reply 8):
Better find another paintscheme for it, cause if it's owned by Repubic, it ain't gonna be wearing the US colors

What are you talking about? Republic already operates the EMB 170 in US Airways colors.

N
 
supa7E7
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RE: 190 At New US Airways

Mon Sep 19, 2005 1:40 am

Quoting Ouboy79 (Reply 11):
AWA ALPA also wants to get the 170 back in house...so we'll see what happens.

The US had better order some E-170s. Currently US does not own any. They were sold to Republic.
"Who's to say spaceships aren't fine art?" - Phil Lesh
 
flyibaby
Posts: 718
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RE: 190 At New US Airways

Mon Sep 19, 2005 2:13 am

Anyone know if the CRJ900's or for that matter the 700's are RVSM approved? I assume the E170/190 are just do to their performance.
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
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RE: 190 At New US Airways

Mon Sep 19, 2005 2:16 am

All transport category airplanes in the US now must be RVSM approved, if I'm not mistaken, or be stuck below the RVSM airspace.

N
 
ouboy79
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RE: 190 At New US Airways

Mon Sep 19, 2005 2:18 am

Quoting ATWZW170 (Reply 19):
The 190 I don't believe is going to be a mainline plane. The RFP that US Airways sent to ZW was for 25 190 or 17 CRJ900 planes. There would have to be a swap, one 190 for a CRJ200...so the fleets wouldn't grow...but I'd much rather see a 190 rather than a CRJ!!

With ALPA agreeing to a mainline competitive pay rate on the 190s at mainline, you'll probably never seem them at an affiliate. But like Ed mentioned, the scope on the CR9 is way up there...so you'll see those.  Smile

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 24):
What are you talking about? Republic already operates the EMB 170 in US Airways colors.

N

I think he was talking about the 190s, not the 170s.
 
A330323X
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RE: 190 At New US Airways

Mon Sep 19, 2005 2:36 am

Quoting Ouboy79 (Reply 28):
With ALPA agreeing to a mainline competitive pay rate on the 190s at mainline

...which ALPA hasn't done yet.

As I said, the new US payscale for the EMB-190 is 10% above the JetBlue payscale.

Call me paranoid, but I think US did that on purpose. It'll now have an excuse why it has to get additional relief from ALPA. I can't see the EMB-190 being operated at mainline under this contract without another LOA.

And if ALPA balks, then US just doesn't operate the -190 at all, because it already has scope relief for all the CRJ-900s it could possibly ever need.

Jerry Glass really is that good, but it doesn't hurt that he's negotiating with imbeciles.
I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
 
A330323X
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RE: 190 At New US Airways

Mon Sep 19, 2005 2:40 am

Quoting Supa7E7 (Reply 25):
The US had better order some E-170s. Currently US does not own any. They were sold to Republic.

Currently US owns 7 of them, and leases another 18. They are going to be sold to Republic, but it hasn't happened yet.
I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
 
PDPsol
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RE: 190 At New US Airways

Mon Sep 19, 2005 3:18 am

Quoting A330323X (Reply 30):
Currently US owns 7 of them, and leases another 18. They are going to be sold to Republic, but it hasn't happened yet.

Actually, on September 2, US announced the Bankruptcy Court approved its proposed sale of Embraer 170s and slot assets to Republic Airways Holdings Inc. for $100 million in cash. The transaction was "expected to close in two weeks", which would have been last Friday, September 16.

So, the deal is most likely closed, finished, done, over, etc. by now.

Also, don't forget that the Ch. 11 Plan of Reorganization [POR] for US was approved by the Bankruptcy Court last Friday, September 16. The POR would most likely not have been approved had the US/Republic deal not been finalized.

The Bankruptcy Court's approval of the POR paves the way for the consummation of the HP/US transaction, which is expected to close by the end of September; most likely by September 27.

Following the HP/US closing:

- Outside investors, including ACE Aviation Holdings [owner of AC], Tudor Investment Corp., PAR Capital Management, Wellington Management Co. LLP, Wexford Capital [control shareholder of Republic] and Eastshore Aviation are supplying $565 million in financing will get about 52% of the shares in the new company

- Existing HP stockholders will hold 37% of the shares in the new company

- US' unsecured creditors will get 12% of the shares in the new company

- Existing US shares will be WIPED out, meaning the Retirement Systems of Alabama, a pension fund for some public employees in that state, will lose its entire $240 million investment, which financed the company's first bankruptcy reorganization in 2003.
 
A330323X
Posts: 2666
Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2003 4:06 pm

RE: 190 At New US Airways

Mon Sep 19, 2005 3:28 am

Quoting Pdpsol (Reply 31):
The transaction was "expected to close in two weeks", which would have been last Friday, September 16.

So, the deal is most likely closed, finished, done, over, etc. by now.

I don't care when it's "expected to close" or "most likely" to close. It hasn't closed yet.

Will it close soon? Sure.

Quoting Pdpsol (Reply 31):
The POR would most likely not have been approved had the US/Republic deal not been finalized.

Why not? There are all sorts of loose ends. The Airbus order still hasn't been signed, there are a number of sale-leasebacks not completed yet, and so on.

Quoting Pdpsol (Reply 31):
Outside investors, including ACE Aviation Holdings [owner of AC], Tudor Investment Corp., PAR Capital Management, Wellington Management Co. LLP, Wexford Capital [control shareholder of Republic] and Eastshore Aviation are supplying $565 million in financing will get about 52% of the shares in the new company

Wexford is not an equity investor. They're buying the commuter slots and MDA, not investing in the new company.
I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
 
PDPsol
Posts: 1111
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RE: 190 At New US Airways

Mon Sep 19, 2005 3:50 am

Quoting A330323X (Reply 32):
Wexford is not an equity investor. They're buying the commuter slots and MDA, not investing in the new company.

This statement is incorrect. In ADDITION to Republic's $100 million deal for the US Embraer 170's, Wexford Capital LLC [along with Republic] is investing $125 million in the equity of the reorganized HP/US. Wexford is a private equity firm and is the controlling shareholder of Republic Airways Holdings Inc.

So, following the close of the HP/US transaction, Wexford [along with Republic] will be a MAJOR direct equity investor in the reorganized company.

In fact, you can read all about Wexford's involvement in the SEC documents filed by Republic Airways [ticker symbol: RJET]. RJET's 8-K filing, dated April 6, 2005 details Wexford's and Republic's agreement to invest in the HP/US deal.

[Edited 2005-09-18 21:18:26]
 
ATWZW170
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RE: 190 At New US Airways

Mon Sep 19, 2005 11:21 am

US/HP rejected the investment from Republic and Wexford. The only thing that Republic is doing at this point is buying the EMB170's and some slots....you need to check the most RECENT investment announcements....MANY things have changed since April!

[Edited 2005-09-19 04:22:04]
Success is getting what you want...happiness is liking what you get
 
apodino
Posts: 3030
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RE: 190 At New US Airways

Tue Sep 20, 2005 3:39 am

I might be a little selfish in saying this but I hope to god this doesn't happen. USAirways submitted a RFP from the regionals for 90 seat flying. Also, this adds another aircraft type to the Mainline, which already has 5 types, 737, 757, 767, 320, and 330. How can an airline that is trying to save money, take on the additional costs to the mainline of adding a new type, which is less than 100 seats. In my experience, most planes less than 100 seats have been flown by the regional affiliates, and AWAC has flow some planes with 100 seats for United. And the increase costs goes far beyond pilots, as you need more mainline mechanics to fix the airplanes, they have to learn a new type, and you aren't eliminating any types. Plus the dispatchers have to learn the new aircraft and everything. This is much more expensive to do at the mainline level than at the regional level. Not to mention more flight attendants would be needed as well. All because of a few selfish pilots out there who will still be able to fly after the merger anyways. And even so, new aircraft brought into service would be under Jets for Jobs. In fact, ALPA has a real conflct of interest here. ALPA not only represents the HP and the US pilots, but also the ZW pilots. Why are they showing favoritism toward the mainline pilots. The ZW pilots have a right to be upset about this.

Another reason ZW is in a position to take the new aircraft is because of the retirement of the 146 fleet. The 146 pilots would have to learn a new aircraft anyways, so the 190 makes perfect sense for ZW, especially since the airline has been unable to expand past the 70 RJ's they have had for a while and grow like a Skywest, Republic, or Mesa.

Anyways, the mainline pilots won't ever fly these things in any case. Basically, if this scope clause is enacted, the new carrier will just get CRJ-900's instead of 190's, and let the regionals fly those rather than waste money on the 190 under mainline terms. And the passengers will suffer the most because the 190 is much more comfy than the CRJ. The one benefit to the regionals will be the type ratings so that the pilots could all fly the same airplane. But this is a big mistake by the pilots union and I hope it doesn't happen.

And before SOAC flames me on this referencing MidAtlantic, that was a business decision by USAirways. Yes it was not right of them to screw the pilots who had already been furloughed and I don't agree with it. But nothing is certain anymore, and while people cite airlines as not being a stable enough profession for most people, I would simply state that no profession is, unless you are in the government.
 
jmc1975
Posts: 2897
Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2000 10:57 am

RE: 190 At New US Airways

Tue Sep 20, 2005 4:10 am

Quoting Apodino (Reply 35):
Also, this adds another aircraft type to the Mainline, which already has 5 types, 737, 757, 767, 320, and 330. How can an airline that is trying to save money, take on the additional costs to the mainline of adding a new type, which is less than 100 seats.

You can expect the E190 to ultimately be the replacement for the 737 fleet as they continue to age. The US Airways 737 and A32x fleets are similar in capacity, but the A32x fleet has superior performance and lower CASM, which is more consistent with their business plan. The E190 opens up the potential for many new/existing routes to be operated at minimum CASM which couldn't be done as economically with the 737 or A32x. Keep in mind, anything less than 100 seats requires 2 flight attendants, further helping with CASM. Also, the 757 and 767 have common flightdecks. Ultimately they could be down to four different fleet types which would make for a very versitile airline.

1. (E-170, E-190)
2. (A319, A320, A321)
3. (757, 767)
4. (A330)

[Edited 2005-09-19 21:18:08]
.......
 
A330323X
Posts: 2666
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RE: 190 At New US Airways

Tue Sep 20, 2005 4:17 am

Quoting Apodino (Reply 35):
USAirways submitted a RFP from the regionals for 90 seat flying.

Again, I don't know why on earth people make such a big deal out of the RFP. That was then; this is now. It was issued when US was able to outsource the EMB-190s; now they can't. (And it accomplished its purpose, which was to scare the pants off of ALPA. And everyone knew that was exactly why they were issuing the RFP, everyone except ALPA, so if the companies that bid on the service couldn't figure it out, it's their own damn fault. Not that anyone wasted much time bidding on it.) They'll issue a new one for the CRJ-900s. It's really not a big deal.

Quoting Apodino (Reply 35):
In my experience, most planes less than 100 seats have been flown by the regional affiliates, and AWAC has flow some planes with 100 seats for United.

The very same 100-seat planes that Air Wisconsin flies for UA used to be in US's mainline fleet! US has flown plenty of planes in that size range, including the BAe-146, BAC 111, F100, DC-9-30, F-28-1000, and F-28-4000. The F100, for example, seated 98, and wasn't retired until April 2002. The F-28-4000, which US mainline operated until summer 1997, seated 68!

So whether you think US mainline should be operating the EMB-190s or not, there is certainly more than enough precedent for it.

Quoting Apodino (Reply 35):
And the increase costs goes far beyond pilots, as you need more mainline mechanics to fix the airplanes, they have to learn a new type, and you aren't eliminating any types. Plus the dispatchers have to learn the new aircraft and everything. This is much more expensive to do at the mainline level than at the regional level.

I agree, which is why I can't possibly see them operated at mainline. MidAtlantic is where these planes should have been operated, but ALPA is too stupid to realize that.

Quoting Apodino (Reply 35):
In fact, ALPA has a real conflct of interest here. ALPA not only represents the HP and the US pilots, but also the ZW pilots. Why are they showing favoritism toward the mainline pilots. The ZW pilots have a right to be upset about this.

What on earth does ZW have to do with anything??

Quoting Apodino (Reply 35):
But this is a big mistake by the pilots union and I hope it doesn't happen.

Too late. It happened.
I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Crew
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RE: 190 At New US Airways

Tue Sep 20, 2005 5:29 am

Quoting A330323X (Reply 37):

Too late. It happened.

I don't consider it a mistake. HP/US will grow tremendously with the E190. As a replacement for the 737, its a good fit. For HP, it will help rationalize fleet use and allow the A319's to be redistributed to transcons.

In today's oil environment, get rid of the gas hogs and add a type that saves fuel.

Just for the record, I am still of mixed opinion on the HP/US merger. Damn is the fleet going to be diverse and US still doesn't have a cost effective operation. Yes, it gives US a West Coast presence (most people out in Cali honestly don't know that US is an option to fly) and HP an East Coast presence (in CT, I had coworkers ask me if it was safe to book on American West and why did AA have a funny named division!).  spin 

We're in interesting times.

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
supa7E7
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RE: 190 At New US Airways

Tue Sep 20, 2005 6:13 am

Quoting Jmc1975 (Reply 36):
1. (E-170, E-190)

What E-170s are you talking about? The ones Republic will be flying?
"Who's to say spaceships aren't fine art?" - Phil Lesh
 
A330323X
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RE: 190 At New US Airways

Tue Sep 20, 2005 6:15 am

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 38):
I don't consider it a mistake.

I don't consider it a mistake for US either. It's a mistake for ALPA.

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 38):
HP/US will grow tremendously with the E190.

Not with this contract. (And I don't think it's a foregone conclusion that US will just go with the CRJ-900 instead, and not get the EMB-190. But it has that option if it needs to, and it can threaten ALPA with that. I think it's much more likely that ALPA will just give in like they always do, and US will obtain additional relief in some form.)

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 38):
As a replacement for the 737, its a good fit.

I agree. The EMB-190 could replace a decent portion of the 737 fleet.

But again, not with this contract. There are minimum fleet count provisions, and the EMB-190 does not count towards them. That's perhaps one of the areas US could go after in obtaining relief from ALPA.
I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
 
HPRamper
Posts: 4602
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RE: 190 At New US Airways

Tue Sep 20, 2005 6:38 am

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 38):
Damn is the fleet going to be diverse

Not any more diverse than the US fleet already was, adding America West aircraft only increases the numbers of existing parts of the fleet.
 
apodino
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RE: 190 At New US Airways

Tue Sep 20, 2005 6:42 am

Quoting A330323X (Reply 37):
What on earth does ZW have to do with anything??

Quite a bit, they are a new USAirways express carrier, and one of the airlines that received the RFP from US, so this would mean more jobs for ZW pilots that may be lost with the 146 retirement.

Quoting A330323X (Reply 37):
Again, I don't know why on earth people make such a big deal out of the RFP. That was then; this is now. It was issued when US was able to outsource the EMB-190s; now they can't. (And it accomplished its purpose, which was to scare the pants off of ALPA. And everyone knew that was exactly why they were issuing the RFP, everyone except ALPA, so if the companies that bid on the service couldn't figure it out, it's their own damn fault. Not that anyone wasted much time bidding on it.) They'll issue a new one for the CRJ-900s. It's really not a big deal.

There is no need to issue a new one for the CRJ-900, the RFP simply states 90 seat aircraft, it doesn't specify whether these will be CRJ's or 190's. Therefore the RFP stands as issued. This probably benefits either ZW or YV since they operate the CRJ's and since there is a similar type rating, they could be much more flexible with crews than say Chautauqua, who has an all Embarer fleet or Republic. The scope clause probably takes Republic out of the equation for good. But all this scope clause does is ensure that 190's will never be seen in USAirways paint.
 
GSPSPOT
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RE: 190 At New US Airways

Tue Sep 20, 2005 6:59 am

Whatever happens with this beautiful aircraft, PLEASE let it come to GSP!!
Finally made it to an airline mecca!
 
A330323X
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RE: 190 At New US Airways

Tue Sep 20, 2005 7:24 am

Quoting Apodino (Reply 35):
In fact, ALPA has a real conflct of interest here. ALPA not only represents the HP and the US pilots, but also the ZW pilots. Why are they showing favoritism toward the mainline pilots. The ZW pilots have a right to be upset about this.



Quoting A330323X (Reply 37):
What on earth does ZW have to do with anything??



Quoting Apodino (Reply 42):
Quite a bit, they are a new USAirways express carrier, and one of the airlines that received the RFP from US, so this would mean more jobs for ZW pilots that may be lost with the 146 retirement.

So ALPA is responsible for every carrier that might have wanted to fly those birds? No, I think they're responsible first and foremost to the US pilots whose scope those planes fall under. Neither ZW, nor anyone else other than MDA, ever had the right to fly the EMB-190 for US, regardless of what US was threatening to do. To suggest that ALPA should have been obligated to just give away the US pilots' scope in favor of another carrier is patently ridiculous. (In general, I actually agree with you that ALPA does often face some big conflicts of interest when it represents mainline and regional carriers at the same time; this just wasn't one of those instances.)

Quoting Apodino (Reply 42):
There is no need to issue a new one for the CRJ-900, the RFP simply states 90 seat aircraft, it doesn't specify whether these will be CRJ's or 190's. Therefore the RFP stands as issued. This probably benefits either ZW or YV since they operate the CRJ's and since there is a similar type rating, they could be much more flexible with crews than say Chautauqua, who has an all Embarer fleet or Republic.

I believe you're wrong, I do think the RFP was for the EMB-190 only.

Also, not sure if you're aware, but SkyWest was issued the RFP as well. US is also no doubt considering placing the CRJ-900 at PSA, which previously held options for the type. (I do think US is likely to order a few more CRJ-900s, in addition to the ones Mesa already operates, regardless of whether they order the EMB-190 or not.)

Quoting Apodino (Reply 42):
But all this scope clause does is ensure that 190's will never be seen in USAirways paint.

Again, while I agree that it won't happen under this contract, I think you're greatly underestimating the likelihood of ALPA giving further concessions.
I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
 
apodino
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RE: 190 At New US Airways

Tue Sep 20, 2005 9:26 am

Quoting A330323X (Reply 44):
No, I think they're responsible first and foremost to the US pilots whose scope those planes fall under. Neither ZW, nor anyone else other than MDA, ever had the right to fly the EMB-190 for US, regardless of what US was threatening to do. To suggest that ALPA should have been obligated to just give away the US pilots' scope in favor of another carrier is patently ridiculous.

So your saying that even though ALPA represents both US and ZW pilots, they first responsibility is to US pilots? Thats BS in my opinon. Both pilot groups are looking to them for representation, and something like a scope clause shows me that they are favoring the mainline guys over the regional guys, even though they are representing both and shouldn't have a preference to one over the other. And since MDA doesn't exist anymore with the merger, that argument is moot point. The bottom line is that the pilot groups are using the issue of seniority merging to impose the scope clause at the merged airline, which I believe still has to be approved by mangement of the merged airline, and to my knowledge, has not. And this is a big mistake by the pilots union as I have stated, and I think some of the regional carriers pilot groups represented by ALPA are owed an explaination by ALPA as to why they are favoring one group over another.

I have a simple solution for all airlines. 100 seats or less, regional, anything more, mainline. Thats the way it should be.

Quoting A330323X (Reply 44):
I believe you're wrong, I do think the RFP was for the EMB-190 only.

No you are wrong sir. The RFP was clearly for 90 seat aircraft, and the ZW CEO Geoff Crowley has confirmed this before and after this whole scope clause.

As far as 737 replacements, why the 190 and not 737NGs that are out there.
 
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RE: 190 At New US Airways

Tue Sep 20, 2005 10:09 am

Quoting Apodino (Reply 45):
So your saying that even though ALPA represents both US and ZW pilots, they first responsibility is to US pilots?

I'm saying that because the US contract already said that the flying belonged to them, it was ALPA's job to protect that language. What's so hard to understand about that?

And what makes ZW so special? Why should it get the flying and not PSA, or for that matter Mesa? ALPA represents them too.

Quoting Apodino (Reply 45):
something like a scope clause shows me that they are favoring the mainline guys over the regional guys

Then while we're at it, let's just give ZW the new A350 flying. After all, it falls under the US mainline scope, but those scope clauses clearly favor the mainline pilots, and are unfair to the ZW pilots.  Yeah sure

Quoting Apodino (Reply 45):
The bottom line is that the pilot groups are using the issue of seniority merging to impose the scope clause at the merged airline, which I believe still has to be approved by mangement of the merged airline, and to my knowledge, has not.

Er, yes, it has. it's a transition agreement that was negotiated between the two pilot groups and the company. Read it yourself if you don't believe me.

http://www.donlinrecano.net/dr201/mwc/04-13819/dk003193-0005.pdf

What, did you think the two pilot groups just got together and put together a wish list, and demanded the EMB-190 flying?

Quoting Apodino (Reply 45):
I have a simple solution for all airlines. 100 seats or less, regional, anything more, mainline. Thats the way it should be.

Why? As I've already pointed out, that's not how it's been historically.

Quoting Apodino (Reply 45):
No you are wrong sir. The RFP was clearly for 90 seat aircraft, and the ZW CEO Geoff Crowley has confirmed this before and after this whole scope clause.

That's certainly possible, and I'll take your word for it, but Republic CEO Bryan Bedford said otherwise.

Quoting Apodino (Reply 45):
As far as 737 replacements, why the 190 and not 737NGs that are out there.

Ummm...because US/HP has a very large A320-series fleet? Whatever 737s are not replaced with 90-seat equipment will be replaced with them.
I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
 
apodino
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RE: 190 At New US Airways

Tue Sep 20, 2005 10:27 am

Quoting A330323X (Reply 46):
Why? As I've already pointed out, that's not how it's been historically.

But thats the way its been since RJ's were invented in the mid 90's, and other jets were grandfathered in.

The reason the republic ceo might have said the 190 is because the airline doesn't operate CRJ's so the fact that it would be CRJ-900's and not 190s would make republic lose interest.

Actually I read the agreement, and it allows more CRJ-900's than are in service now to be flown by express carriers. That would probably be a good thing for any regionals flying the CRJ as it would decrease training costs for those airlines.

Quoting A330323X (Reply 46):
And what makes ZW so special? Why should it get the flying and not PSA, or for that matter Mesa? ALPA represents them too.

Nothing I said should suggest otherwise. I said regional carriers, so certainly if the regionals were to fly the 190, they all should be given the chance to bid on the flying. I am suggesting that ALPA is hurting the regional pilots at these airlines by keeping flying at mainline, where there will be no openings anytime soon for new membership, instead of the regionals, where most of the membership is these days, or so it seems.

Quoting A330323X (Reply 46):
Then while we're at it, let's just give ZW the new A350 flying. After all, it falls under the US mainline scope, but those scope clauses clearly favor the mainline pilots, and are unfair to the ZW pilots. Yeah sure

Thats an apples to oranges comparison. Widebodied aircraft, which the A350 will likely be, should be flown by mainline and not regionals. The debate I am talking about is the grey area surrounding the 70-100 seat jet market. Anything more than 100 belongs at mainline. It is the 70-100 seat that is the grey area. And the pilots are thinking about only themselves, but there is so much more that goes into operating a type than the pilots. The airlines should have final say over who flies what, as long as it is in reason, and not the pilots union, unless it is something ridiculous like them trying to outsource international flying.
 
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RE: 190 At New US Airways

Tue Sep 20, 2005 10:29 am

Quoting Apodino (Reply 45):
As far as 737 replacements, why the 190 and not 737NGs that are out there.

HP/US will use the A319 to expand in that size range. The 190 is more efficient when flying "down-gauged" routes. In my opinion, the E190 is the first 100 seater to be viable since the DC9-10. (For the Fokker fans, I have but one question, if the F28/F100 were that viable, why didn't they outlast the DC9-10's in major fleet usage?)

Quoting A330323X (Reply 40):
But again, not with this contract.

As to the pilot contracts, I do not know the details. But could not the HP pilots fly the 190's? Its going to be interesting merging these two airlines. I also happen to agree with the Boyd group that the US CLT hub is vulnerable. WN has quite a few 737's idled by Katrina. Either they or another LCC could jump in and hurt US's revenue stream. HP/US needs to cut costs and fast!

Lightsaber
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RE: 190 At New US Airways

Tue Sep 20, 2005 10:37 am

Quoting Apodino (Reply 47):
Actually I read the agreement, and it allows more CRJ-900's than are in service now to be flown by express carriers.

Yes! That's what I've been saying since Reply 12!  banghead 

Quoting Apodino (Reply 47):
I am suggesting that ALPA is hurting the regional pilots at these airlines by keeping flying at mainline, where there will be no openings anytime soon for new membership

You'd be surprised. Half of the active US pilots will have to retire within 5 years. At MidAtlantic, US had already exhausted the entire recall list for first officers, and was hiring from its wholly-owned Express carriers, with a fleet of only 25 planes.

Quoting Apodino (Reply 47):
The airlines should have final say over who flies what, as long as it is in reason, and not the pilots union

US and ALPA bargained, and that's the contract they came up with. As it is, US/HP already has the most liberal scope clause in the industry. No other airline can outsource even the CRJ-900 right now.
I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.