Blasphemystic
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Ill-equipped Airports Stifle India

Mon Sep 19, 2005 1:19 pm

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MarshalN
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RE: Ill-equipped Airports Stifle India

Mon Sep 19, 2005 2:09 pm

Unfortunately it seems like any sort of reform will take a long time before they materialize. Makes you wonder how things will be like 1-2 years from now, especially since air travel is booming -- and they're all making big orders for new planes.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Ill-equipped Airports Stifle India

Mon Sep 19, 2005 11:12 pm

Mumbai Airport is Modernising fast.Phase 1 [Lh Dep side] completed.Phase 2 in progress [RH dep side & Arrival] of Terminal 1B.
8 more bays constructed,18 more planned.
The confusing part is will the Privatisation scheme include the Mod carried out.
Difficulty is the Red Tape involved.

I'd just say Make A Difference

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
BandA
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RE: Ill-equipped Airports Stifle India

Mon Sep 19, 2005 11:40 pm

==========================
With an outdated, short-staffed air-traffic control system, the worst fear is that a signal mix-up could lead to a mid-air collision.
==========================

Great! I am headed to Delhi in a month or so and the last thing I needed was this on my mind  Angry

Anyone here familiar with DEL can you please shed some light on this issue? how many flights land/takeoff around mid-night? is JAL one of the few airlines that land their in the evening instead of mid-night?
"They [Terrorists] never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we." - GWB
 
aseem
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RE: Ill-equipped Airports Stifle India

Mon Sep 19, 2005 11:54 pm

Quoting BandA (Reply 3):
is JAL one of the few airlines that land their in the evening instead of mid-night?

I am sure it is. Most of the international flights are round about mid-night. And don't be scared.
rgds
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HAWK21M
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RE: Ill-equipped Airports Stifle India

Wed Sep 21, 2005 5:43 pm

Quoting BandA (Reply 3):
With an outdated, short-staffed air-traffic control system, the worst fear is that a signal mix-up could lead to a mid-air collision.

Ever heard of the TCAS.Thumbs Up
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
eha
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RE: Ill-equipped Airports Stifle India

Wed Sep 21, 2005 5:58 pm

Quoting BandA (Reply 3):

Anyone here familiar with DEL can you please shed some light on this issue? how many flights land/takeoff around mid-night? is JAL one of the few airlines that land their in the evening instead of mid-night?

They have a modern ATC system at DEL and Mumbai. Installed by Raytheon around 1998-99 as far as I can remember. Which does not prevent on problems to happen; several air miss approaching DEL happened the past years.

E.
 
ourboeing
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RE: Ill-equipped Airports Stifle India

Wed Sep 21, 2005 8:47 pm

Quoting Eha (Reply 6):
They have a modern ATC system at DEL and Mumbai. Installed by Raytheon around 1998-99 as far as I can remember. Which does not prevent on problems to happen; several air miss approaching DEL happened the past years.

I travel to Delhi every year and I have never encountered any delays at all except when it is foggy. The only thing that needs to be fixed/installed is the ILS. I don't know what the update on it is but during the foggy nights/mornings the flights are delayed for hours due to no visibility.

Can anyone provide us on an update as to if the ILS system has been installed at DEL yet?

Thanks

OURBOEING
 
Nimish
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RE: Ill-equipped Airports Stifle India

Wed Sep 21, 2005 9:03 pm

Quoting OURBOEING (Reply 7):
Can anyone provide us on an update as to if the ILS system has been installed at DEL yet?

OK - here's what I remember offhand - the ILS system to enable landing during heavy fogs has been installed. Initially it was not commissioned due to lack of calibration or similar issues. Then it was commissioned. It then turned out that none of the domestic airline pilots had any training in using that system, so all the delays/re-routing continued unabated. However, some international flights had pilots certified in that system, and they were able to land during heavy fog conditions.
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comorin
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RE: Ill-equipped Airports Stifle India

Wed Sep 21, 2005 9:45 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 5):
Ever heard of the TCAS

Doesn't TCAS imply that both aircraft must be equipped for it to work? Wasn't this the problem with the SAA incident at IGI some years ago?

Thanks for clarifying.
 
cricket
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RE: Ill-equipped Airports Stifle India

Wed Sep 21, 2005 11:22 pm

TCAS is installed on almost all Indian civilian aircraft. The problem with the ILS approach in Delhi is two-fold - because of the location of the Indian Airlines terminal very close to runaway 10/28 and the fact that National Highway 8 is located very close to the treshold of the runaway it is only CAT-IIIB certified. I don't know how many of you are familiar with Delhi winters but the fog sometimes puts visibility lower than Cat-IIIB minima (around 250m) and no flights can operate. There are plans, and these are OLD plans to put in a Cat-IIIC system that will allow for zero-visibility take-offs and landings. To make matters worse, several of the newer carriers (9W and S2 included here) don't have enough Cat-IIIB trained pilots (IC has quite a few) so even if landings are possible, the pilots can't land the planes. I would love to see wher AA and CO will have to divert their flights (because I'm pretty sure that at least a few flights will get diverted for sure) and with those 777-200ER's at the edge of their range performance envelopes I wonder if they'll make Jaipur. (Maybe Chandigarh?). Seriously DEL airport is pretty much useless between 2100-1000 hours on some days in winter (It was quite funny one day last year when I had gone to the airport for a photo-shoot with IC to see all the IC and Int'l flights take off while the Jet and Sahara planes had to wait)
The other problem with the two major airports DEL and BOM (which handle 60 percent of all Indian air traffic in terms of movements) is that the ATC system is so outdated which along with the lack of rapid-exit taxiways means that the main runaways (10/28 in DEL and 9/27 in BOM) can only handle 25 movements an hour (vs 55 at FRA, LHR, NRT, ORD, DFW etc) enough in a world with just IC, 9W and S2 operating domestic flights but nowhere enough to cope with all the new carriers. Which leads to almost every flight (other than the first few) in the morning and evening banks to spend 15-20 minutes waiting to take-off (if they're lucky) and another 15-20 minutes waiting to land. Thus sometimes a 1hr35min DEL-BOM flight can take upto 2.30-3.00hrs at peak hours.
Now, the AAI has decided to increase the runaway length (DEL) and construct rapid exit taxiways (DEL, BOM) alongside a software upgrade to bump up movement handling to 35/movements an hour. But until October/November when the runaways are refurbished expect even more delays.
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aseem
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RE: Ill-equipped Airports Stifle India

Thu Sep 22, 2005 12:30 am

Quoting Cricket (Reply 10):
I would love to see wher AA and CO will have to divert their flights (because I'm pretty sure that at least a few flights will get diverted for sure) and with those 777-200ER's at the edge of their range performance envelopes I wonder if they'll make Jaipur. (Maybe Chandigarh?). Seriously DEL airport is pretty much useless between 2100-1000 hours on some days in winter (It was quite funny one day last year when I had gone to the airport for a photo-shoot with IC to see all the IC and Int'l flights take off while the Jet and Sahara planes had to wait)

I was one of the fortunate people to get to land in those circumstances. Fortunate in the sense, that mine was YYZ-DEL direct A343 landing on foggy night of Dec 25,2004 quite at edge of its range. The fog was so bad that I could make out landmarks only after the plane landed. One of the persons I know was ariving on 9W from MAA around the same time. His plane flew over Radisson and then went back to AMD. Quite possibly the pilot was not trained on the system, but my AC's A343 did manage to land without hovering over the city.
rgds
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stealthpilot
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RE: Ill-equipped Airports Stifle India

Thu Sep 22, 2005 1:15 am

Quoting Eha (Reply 6):
They have a modern ATC system at DEL and Mumbai.

Modern maybe, but not the safest.
The ATC's do a good job, but they are stretched and their training program and qualifications aren�t as comprehensive as in Europe and America.
Nothing to be scared about........ yet  Smile
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BandA
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RE: Ill-equipped Airports Stifle India

Thu Sep 22, 2005 2:03 am

I know FOG is a HUGE issue with DEL atleast (never been to BOM) I have exclusively flown the JAL arrival/derparture of between 5-7pm for a long time and have never experienced FOG related delays however I have heard that the reason most other flights arrive/depart del around mid-night is because FOG usually is not as dense around DEL at that time, is this true?
"They [Terrorists] never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we." - GWB
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Ill-equipped Airports Stifle India

Thu Sep 22, 2005 2:08 pm

Quoting Eha (Reply 6):
several air miss approaching DEL happened the past years.

Define Air Miss & you'll realise it occurs the world over.Because of TCAS its noticed,not visually.
Avoidable but does happen,though the distance spacing is still a lot.


Quoting Comorin (Reply 9):
Doesn't TCAS imply that both aircraft must be equipped for it to work

Even the one Aircraft with Serviceable TCAS can avoid a collosion.

Quoting Stealthpilot (Reply 12):
The ATC's do a good job, but they are stretched

They are short staffed & Infrastructure with regards to Runways & Exit Taxiways dont help either.

Quoting BandA (Reply 13):
I know FOG is a HUGE issue with DEL atleast (never been to BOM

BOM has never had FOG distruption,but heavy rains can cause delays during the monsoon.

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
cricket
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RE: Ill-equipped Airports Stifle India

Thu Sep 22, 2005 9:54 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 14):
BOM has never had FOG distruption,but heavy rains can cause delays during the monsoon.

Remember July 26-27-28, that was no disruption - that was Shutdown!
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HAWK21M
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RE: Ill-equipped Airports Stifle India

Fri Sep 23, 2005 2:54 pm

Quoting Cricket (Reply 15):
Remember July 26-27-28, that was no disruption - that was Shutdown

That was an Exception.That was because of 09-27 Equipment damage caused by flooding.If one has 970+ mm of rain in one place & 70+ mm in another located 30km apart.[hope that cloudburst never occurs again].
Since I started working there,As far as I remember Bom Airport was closed for a day when an IC A320 NLG collapsed in late 90s on 09-27. 14-32 was not available.
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MEL
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cricket
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RE: Ill-equipped Airports Stifle India

Fri Sep 23, 2005 4:52 pm

Hawk, what are the restrictions on 14/32 because the approach and take-off paths out of that runaway are pretty bad. Does it have ILS? I know that 9/27 in DEL doesn't have ILS and is a visual approach.
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CHI787ORD
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RE: Ill-equipped Airports Stifle India

Sun Sep 25, 2005 11:42 am

Quoting Cricket (Reply 10):
Maybe Chandigarh?).

I don't think IXC's runway can handle a B777. The best options for AA and CO would be either to Jaipur or turn around and head up to Amritsar (most likely Amritsar).
 
AirIndiaOne
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RE: Ill-equipped Airports Stifle India

Sun Sep 25, 2005 10:07 pm

Quoting Cricket (Reply 17):
what are the restrictions on 14/32 because the approach and take-off paths out of that runaway are pretty bad. Does it have ILS?

About the restrictions...the trombay hill which stands at 977 ft AGL might seem to be a problem for heavies taking off from 14. When 32 is used, the landing aircrafts are required to confirm visual of hill after which they are cleared for final approach. Most of the time 14/32 operates only with a localizer approach.

IMHO the path is not that bad. i've seen AI 744s and VS 343 take off from 14 easily clearing the hill without needing a steep climb.

Mel, can you post the locations of the 8 new bays at BOM.
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HAWK21M
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RE: Ill-equipped Airports Stifle India

Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:34 pm

Quoting Cricket (Reply 17):

Airfield Data: 2 Runways, Fire Category IX

Noise Restrictions: minimal

Runway 1: Heading 09/27, 3,489m (11,446ft), 104/F/D/W/U, Aircraft size max: B747, Rwy 09, ILS CAT I, Lighting: CAT I, edge, threshold, end, centre line, Rwy 27, ILS CAT I, Lighting: CAT II, edge, threshold, end, centre line

Runway 2: Heading 14/32, 2,925m (9,596ft), 60/F/C/W/T, Aircraft size max: B747, Rwy 14, ILS CAT I, Lighting: CAT I, edge, threshold, end, Rwy 32, ILS CAT I, Lighting: simple approach, edge, threshold, end

Quoting AirIndiaOne (Reply 19):
Mel, can you post the locations of the 8 new bays at BOM.


As near as possible.Dont have the latest Jeppersen chart.
regds
MEL
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himmat01
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RE: Ill-equipped Airports Stifle India

Tue Sep 27, 2005 2:34 pm

Mel,

8 new bays added on domestic side: Is the place where that broken up B737-200 of NEPC was parked along with a middle section of a F27 around a month back?

Proposed 18 bays near the AI hangars: How does AAI plan to transfer the passengers to the terminals. Is there a plan for a tunnel under the runway?

Himmat
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Nimish
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RE: Ill-equipped Airports Stifle India

Tue Sep 27, 2005 3:10 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 20):
As near as possible.Dont have the latest Jeppersen chart.

Is there a similar one for BLR? It would be nice to figure out how the airport is laid out..
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cricket
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RE: Ill-equipped Airports Stifle India

Tue Sep 27, 2005 4:32 pm

Quoting Himmat01 (Reply 21):
Proposed 18 bays near the AI hangars: How does AAI plan to transfer the passengers to the terminals. Is there a plan for a tunnel under the runway?

My question exactly. They can't have buses and other support vehicles scurrying across the runaway and to drive to the end and then turn to other side would make for a huge drive. Of course, in true desi style they might have added the bays first and thought about other problems later.
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HAWK21M
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RE: Ill-equipped Airports Stifle India

Tue Sep 27, 2005 6:07 pm

Quoting Himmat01 (Reply 21):
8 new bays added on domestic side: Is the place where that broken up B737-200 of NEPC was parked along with a middle section of a F27 around a month back

A month back Then yes.

Quoting Himmat01 (Reply 21):
Proposed 18 bays near the AI hangars: How does AAI plan to transfer the passengers to the terminals. Is there a plan for a tunnel under the runway

Like Cricket said....Bus Drive,a road to be built.Airport Darshan Style  Smile

Quoting Nimish (Reply 22):
Is there a similar one for BLR? It would be nice to figure out how the airport is laid out

Yes there would.I'll check if I can get one.
regds
MEL
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cricket
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RE: Ill-equipped Airports Stifle India

Tue Sep 27, 2005 8:12 pm

Well, why could I guess it. That would be one heck of a drive - it must be a good 3-4km back to Terminal 1B. And since the buses can only cross when there is no air traffic, it gonna be long if they bump up movements to 35/hour. But on the plus side, photography would be a lot easier!
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himmat01
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RE: Ill-equipped Airports Stifle India

Tue Sep 27, 2005 8:31 pm

Quoting Cricket (Reply 23):
They can't have buses and other support vehicles scurrying across the runaway and to drive to the end and then turn to other side would make for a huge drive. Of course, in true desi style they might have added the bays first and thought about other problems later.

They might as well construct terminal III over there and hand it over to Jet Airways. That would reduce the burden on terminal 1B and leave a lot of space for the new players.
An airplane might disappoint any pilot but it'll never surprise a good one.
 
cricket
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RE: Ill-equipped Airports Stifle India

Tue Sep 27, 2005 9:01 pm

And demolish half of the slums in Kurla - do you think any politician will allow it?
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blrBird
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RE: Ill-equipped Airports Stifle India

Sat Oct 01, 2005 9:52 am

Quoting Nimish (Reply 22):
Is there a similar one for BLR?

Something similar....

to get a better view goto official web site BLR
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HAWK21M
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RE: Ill-equipped Airports Stifle India

Sat Oct 01, 2005 1:26 pm

Quoting Cricket (Reply 25):
And since the buses can only cross when there is no air traffic

The Perimeter road would be expanded & then the Journey time would be 5 mins.Which is not bad considering the tour.

Quoting Himmat01 (Reply 26):
They might as well construct terminal III over there and hand it over to Jet Airways. That would reduce the burden on terminal 1B and leave a lot of space for the new players.

With no Cityside access.Not possible.

There are plans of moving the Old Airport Parked GA Aircraft to Juhu Aerodrome after its upgraded/Modernised.

regds
MEL
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Pomnath
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RE: Ill-equipped Airports Stifle India

Sat Oct 01, 2005 1:52 pm

Back to the topic, and let us not call Indian Airports "ill-equipped" out of ignorance.

What are we talking about, shortage of parking bays? Well, 1 out of 4 landings I make at LHR on a typical DEL-LHR-WCUSA trip end up at a remote bay being bussed to T-3 by wildman jockeys, last time even the bus was a second hand "Left Hand Drive" hand me down from of all places, Poland.

Are we talking about security, airspace control, nav-aids, get a life, would everybody be simply begging to operate to India then?

Maybe we mean immigration services and Customs? I had to check in 4 hours in advance at LAX earlier this month and as for LHR, I need to leave the City almost 3.5 hours ahead of schduled departure. In India I can leave from 20 kilometres away an hour before the departure especially if it is at night.

Have you tried to compare the cost of, say, a bottle of mineral water in Indian Airports with that in, say, North America or Europe? Do retailers sell branded items at printed prices in Indian airports?

Keeping on talking about ill-equipped airports in India is a position which people like to take, probably out of ignorance of something called "cost-benefit". I mean, when was the last time anybody paid anything for a trolley in an Indian airport? Or more than 10 dollars for a taxi ride to most anywhere in the city of arrival?

Yes, sure, airports in the West are "well equiped", but at 5 dollars or euros for a bottle of water and no water fountain in sight?
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Nimish
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RE: Ill-equipped Airports Stifle India

Sat Oct 01, 2005 8:06 pm

Quoting BlrBird (Reply 28):
to get a better view goto official web site BLR

Hey thanks for this link - this is superb! The only problem is that the image of Apron 1 seems to have a large white "hole" in the middle - does anyone have the correct one?
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HAWK21M
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RE: Ill-equipped Airports Stifle India

Sun Oct 02, 2005 12:23 am

Quoting BlrBird (Reply 28):

Fantastic link.
Any similiar link for BOM.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)

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