lazyshaun
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Why Do Airlines Want To Have All A/B Fleets?

Tue Sep 20, 2005 7:04 am

Some airlines go through years of plane retirement and ordering to make sure they end up all Airbus/Boeing.

Why is this? Maybe if you only have a small fleet it would be simpler to do this, but why do large Intl airlines with shorthaul and longhaul a/c sometimes still won't to have these fleets? Surely it is not good to rely on one manufacture too heavily?

Any ideas?

[Edited 2005-09-20 00:05:26]
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lazyshaun
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RE: Why Do Airlines Want To Have All A/B Fleets?

Tue Sep 20, 2005 7:16 am

Do you think it is so maybe the airline can create a relationship with the manufacture, so maybe get "discount" on certain orders etc, but why don't these airlines do that with both manufactures?
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797
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RE: Why Do Airlines Want To Have All A/B Fleets?

Tue Sep 20, 2005 7:18 am

Well, I'd say that having a fleet of one manufacturer would give them some benefits, like pilot training (in case of Airbus A330-340 / Boeing 737) and probably if airlines are thinking of buying aircraft, they could receive special offers from the manufacturer.

Also, the manteinance can be crucial here.

My thoughts...

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ikramerica
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RE: Why Do Airlines Want To Have All A/B Fleets?

Tue Sep 20, 2005 7:22 am

But if the manufacturer knows you are with them only, why would you be sure you'd be getting the best deal?

I think it's the manufacturers who want airlines to be all theirs, and not the other way around, but some airlines have been sold on it. which is not to say that given the right offer, they wouldn't buy the other brand if the new model was worth it.

this excludes certain european carriers who will be airbus for political reasons, as well as certain anti-us countries and their flag carriers.
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alfa75
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RE: Why Do Airlines Want To Have All A/B Fleets?

Tue Sep 20, 2005 7:24 am

Quoting 797 (Reply 2):
Also, the manteinance can be crucial here

I agree, it is the same reason fleets such as UPS or FedEx try to have all of their trucks the same.
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commavia
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RE: Why Do Airlines Want To Have All A/B Fleets?

Tue Sep 20, 2005 7:25 am

$$$  Smile

The fewer fleet types you have, the less it costs for:

. Maintenance
. Logistics
. Schedule/Capacity Planning
. Procurement
. Equipment
. Staffing
. Training
. OSO Operations

... among other things
 
MarshalN
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RE: Why Do Airlines Want To Have All A/B Fleets?

Tue Sep 20, 2005 7:27 am

How many airlines actually have an all A or B fleet? Let's not count one-type LCCs since we know who they are already. Not a lot come to mind... AA, CO, UA, BA (?).....
 
ACDC8
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RE: Why Do Airlines Want To Have All A/B Fleets?

Tue Sep 20, 2005 7:30 am

Quoting MarshalN (Reply 6):
How many airlines actually have an all A or B fleet? Let's not count one-type LCCs since we know who they are already. Not a lot come to mind... AA, CO, UA, BA (?).....

I was just thinking the same thing. BA does have quite a large fleet of A32X though. IIRC, All Nippon is pretty well an all Boeing fleet at present. Of course there are the obvious such as WN, WS and FR which are all B737 fleets.

[Edited 2005-09-20 00:31:02]
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lazyshaun
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RE: Why Do Airlines Want To Have All A/B Fleets?

Tue Sep 20, 2005 7:48 am

Quote:
How many airlines actually have an all A or B fleet? Let's not count one-type LCCs since we know who they are already

There are a few, EI, TAP, JAL, BMI.

Some airlines I think had only bough Boeing a/c because they were the only manufacturer available. When 'Bus came along their fleets were maybe ageing, and needed renewing. Maybe some airlines only had a case of selling some 70/2/37s, and bus was proving to be good.

Just a thought...
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vv701
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RE: Why Do Airlines Want To Have All A/B Fleets?

Tue Sep 20, 2005 8:03 am

Quoting MarshalN (Reply 6):
AA, CO, UA, BA (?).....

None of the above. But Qatar Airways (QR) operates a fleet of only Airbus types including all basic types except the A310 and A318.

Air Portugal (TP) is another all Airbus airline operating all types except the A300 and A330.

Malev are a European airline without an Airbus in a fleet comprising B737s, B767s, Fokker 70s and CRJ 200s.

Britannia Airways (now doing business as Thomson Fly) operate a fleet of Boeing 757s and 767s and to the best of my recollection have only otherwise operated the Boeing 737 jet aircraft.

bmi (BD) used to operate mainly B 737s but now have an all-Airbus fleet with the exception of their last two F-100s.

Indian Airlines (IC) have a fleet of A300s and A320s.

Until the very recent delivery of a single A330 KLM (KL) had an all-Boeing fleet if you count their 10 MD-11s as Boeing.

On the other hand neighbouring SN Brussels Airlines have no Boeings in their mainly BAe fleet which also includes three A330s and three A319s.

And I expect there are many more
 
SHUPirate1
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RE: Why Do Airlines Want To Have All A/B Fleets?

Tue Sep 20, 2005 8:35 am

Quoting VV701 (Reply 9):
None of the above.

Continental is actually all-Boeing now, having recently retired their last MD-80.
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IB787
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RE: Why Do Airlines Want To Have All A/B Fleets?

Tue Sep 20, 2005 9:02 am

IB will be soon an all-airbus company with A32X for short-haul and A343/346 for long-haul.
 
ikramerica
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RE: Why Do Airlines Want To Have All A/B Fleets?

Tue Sep 20, 2005 10:06 am

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 10):
Continental is actually all-Boeing now, having recently retired their last MD-80.

Yep, since January, and good riddance!

But if Japan were to build a new 150-200 seat plane that blew the socks of the 737NG, CO would buy it.

There is little maintenance benefit if you operate a fleet of 200 A320s and 50 A330s vs. 200 A320s and 50 767s.
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pilotpip
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RE: Why Do Airlines Want To Have All A/B Fleets?

Tue Sep 20, 2005 11:48 am

True, but pilot transitions will be easier because the logic behind the systems on the various manufacturers is very similiar. Airbus touts this highly as one of their strongpoints.
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Carpethead
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RE: Why Do Airlines Want To Have All A/B Fleets?

Tue Sep 20, 2005 3:57 pm

NH & JL will be heading to an all-Boeing fleet, but it will still be some years off before NH sheds their A320s & JL their A300s.
With Skymark, Skynet Asia, & AirDo operating Boeing aircraft the only airline in the future that will take-up Airbus aircraft is the up-start Starflyer, which begins service next March with A320s.
Post WW2, Japan has had much tighter ties with the US, and NH & JL maintenance and operational philosophies have adopted US-based designs.
 
Doona
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RE: Why Do Airlines Want To Have All A/B Fleets?

Tue Sep 20, 2005 4:19 pm

Quoting Lazyshaun (Reply 8):
JAL

JAL still operates DC-10s, and the domestic side, which used to be Japan Air System, operates 41 MD80/90s, and a number of A300s. But as Carpethead states in the above post, the Japanese main carriers are heaing for all-Boeing. Any idea what NH will get to replace their A320/321s?

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lazyshaun
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RE: Why Do Airlines Want To Have All A/B Fleets?

Tue Sep 20, 2005 6:37 pm

BMI have no Fokkers left now, VV701. Plus that 757 doesn't help their all-airbus fleet.
Also LOT are all boeing are they not? Excluding maybe some regional jets.
I think the idea of Airbus small a/c and Boeing heavies or vise versa is a good plan, e.g. Alitalia, BA.
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PipoA380
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RE: Why Do Airlines Want To Have All A/B Fleets?

Tue Sep 20, 2005 6:50 pm

Quoting 797 (Reply 2):

I fully agree with you.

Other example of all A/B fleet is Swiss (LX). Though having Embraers (that they'll get rid of) and Jumbolinos, LX only have Airbus (319/320/321/330/340). That was part of the Swissair management in the late 90ies, when they started to get rid of their 747s and MD11s later on, which left the fleet lately Sad . Now it's only Airbus and Jumbolinos for their smaller destinations (LCY for instance).

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solnabo
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RE: Why Do Airlines Want To Have All A/B Fleets?

Tue Sep 20, 2005 7:38 pm

SAS have a mix of A/B/MDD n Q400.

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ZSOFN
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RE: Why Do Airlines Want To Have All A/B Fleets?

Tue Sep 20, 2005 7:57 pm

SA are an interesting case; only a couple of years after beginning to receive their brand new 738s they sign a complete fleet renewal contract with Airbus. Once completed they'll have A319s, A320s (although I think they might have cancelled these), A342s, A343Es & A346s. They might also order the A380 to replace the B744s on the LHR route that is almost always at full capacity. We should nevertheless see the B744s for a while yet, and the B738s till 2010.
 
Dalmd88
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RE: Why Do Airlines Want To Have All A/B Fleets?

Tue Sep 20, 2005 10:14 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 12):
There is little maintenance benefit if you operate a fleet of 200 A320s and 50 A330s vs. 200 A320s and 50 767s

I disagree. There is a lot of commonality between any one manufacturer. All Boeings share a good deal of parts. All Boeing manuals are very similar also. They all share the same culture. I've worked on Douglas products also. They all have a Douglas culture. I bet Airbus has their own culture that runs though the fleet.

As a mechanic switching from one culture to the next is a little jarring. Say you work on B airplanes a lot. You tend to begin to think like B. Your troubleshooting and repair skills get better. Now you get sent to work on a D airplane. What you end up with is a pissed off mechanic because he can't figure out the airplane. All he can think is 'why did D do it this way?'
 
manni
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RE: Why Do Airlines Want To Have All A/B Fleets?

Tue Sep 20, 2005 11:23 pm

Ikramerica,

Could you be so kind to name these certain European carriers, aswell as these flag carriers from anti US countrys, that are for the reason you say exclusively Airbus?

Because, if anti US was a motivation not to buy Boeing, only the Brits, Danes, Duth and Italians would have Boeings in their fleet.  Wink

I can only think of one airline that had planned to purchase Boeings but was forced to change their plans and buy Airbus instead. Indeed, ELAL.

Or was it the other way around Big grin
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gokmengs
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RE: Why Do Airlines Want To Have All A/B Fleets?

Wed Sep 21, 2005 12:13 am

Because a single manufacturers have commonalities between their types hence it reduces pilot training costs maintanace etc. Unless you are Turkish Airlines and you need to impress both U.S. and the E.U. it makes a great sense to have A/B only fleet. However if you have very complex route map like LH,BA,AF you may need to use both but still try to keep it least types as possibble.
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