AirRyan
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Former Amfa NW Mechs Arrested Blocking Road

Tue Sep 20, 2005 7:38 am

Wow, what part of "you lost" do these AMFA mechs not understand? The AMFA mechs voluntarily walked off the job and so they have no voice in impending the Ch11 proceedings with NW. Get over it people - instead of wasting your time picketing go find yourself a new job so your kids can still have clothes to go to school in and food to put on the table for.

http://miva.sctimes.com/miva/cgi-bin/miva?Web/page.mv+1+local+459730
 
dl757md
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RE: Former Amfa NW Mechs Arrested Blocking Road

Tue Sep 20, 2005 7:57 am

Quoting AirRyan (Thread starter):
Get over it people

Get over yourself. Why are you so obsessed with this issue which clerly has little if anything to do with you. You're all over every AMFA thread on here saying how much you think these people are idiots. That's fine and certainly within your right. But if some guy wants to waste his time with picketing over what is in your opinion a lost cause....who cares!! Because after all that's his right as well. And while it may not be their right to block traffic, we do have a justice system in place to deal with behavior like that. So I say again...WHO CARES!

Dl757Md
757 Most beautiful airliner in the sky!
 
Dougloid
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RE: Former Amfa NW Mechs Arrested Blocking Road

Tue Sep 20, 2005 8:15 am

Quoting AirRyan (Thread starter):
Wow, what part of "you lost" do these AMFA mechs not understand?

Ummmmmm, call me ignorant but where's it say they were AMFA members? They coulda been scabs out to make a name for themselves.

I can hear is now "Yassuh, massa....I shore likes mah job on this yere plantation. Nawsuh, ah ain't got no rights."


It sounds like a scably thing to do.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
B744F
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RE: Former Amfa NW Mechs Arrested Blocking Road

Tue Sep 20, 2005 8:18 am

Damn those AMFA members for trying to use the only power they have to demand wages so they can put food on the table.
 
Dougloid
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RE: Former Amfa NW Mechs Arrested Blocking Road

Tue Sep 20, 2005 8:24 am

Quoting B744F (Reply 3):
Damn those AMFA members for trying to use the only power they have to demand wages so they can put food on the table.

All that work around those lovely airplanes, and these guys have the nerve to ask for three hots and a cot? Piss on em....let em eat cake, as the lady said.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
aogdesk
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RE: Former Amfa NW Mechs Arrested Blocking Road

Tue Sep 20, 2005 8:26 am

AirRyan,
Regardless of your views, its called standing up for what you believe in. Countless men and women have done it throughout history, even when faced with riducule, threats and death.
An obvious lack of maturity will prevent you from fully comprehending this issue.
 
N908AW
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RE: Former Amfa NW Mechs Arrested Blocking Road

Tue Sep 20, 2005 9:27 am

Quoting Aogdesk (Reply 5):
AirRyan,
Regardless of your views, its called standing up for what you believe in. Countless men and women have done it throughout history, even when faced with riducule, threats and death.
An obvious lack of maturity will prevent you from fully comprehending this issue.

Yes, but that doesn't change the fact that they're idiots for getting themselves arrested and having these show up as misdemeanors on their resume when applying for a new job.  eyebrow 
'Cause you're on ATA again, and on ATA, you're on vacation!
 
aogdesk
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RE: Former Amfa NW Mechs Arrested Blocking Road

Tue Sep 20, 2005 9:35 am

Timmy, you're young and impressionable, and hopefully you have an open mind. You missed my point completely; that is that sometimes standing up for what you really believe in means that you may very well face prosecution or persecution. Thats the way its been for thousands of years, and it will continue to be that way. As far as misdemeanors showing up on their resume, consider this: A misdemeanor doesn't mean that you won't get hired. However, when your new aircraft maintenance employer finds out that you were a replacement worker for NW during the strike, that will probably seal your fate. Thats a fact.
 
N908AW
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RE: Former Amfa NW Mechs Arrested Blocking Road

Tue Sep 20, 2005 9:38 am

Quoting Aogdesk (Reply 7):
Timmy, you're young and impressionable, and hopefully you have an open mind. You missed my point completely; that is that sometimes standing up for what you really believe in means that you may very well face prosecution or persecution. Thats the way its been for thousands of years, and it will continue to be that way. As far as misdemeanors showing up on their resume, consider this: A misdemeanor doesn't mean that you won't get hired. However, when your new aircraft maintenance employer finds out that you were a replacement worker for NW during the strike, that will probably seal your fate. Thats a fact.

I understand your point. But sooner or later they have to see the undeniable truth that NW more or less gave them virtual pink slips when they walked off the job, as AMFA appears to be out of the ''new'' post-Ch 11 NW. And I suppose it's a point that people who stand up for things like this tend to get persecuted because they believe in it, not because they cause a roadblock.

Edited to add a point and to change metaphoric to virtual.

[Edited 2005-09-20 02:42:31]
'Cause you're on ATA again, and on ATA, you're on vacation!
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Former Amfa NW Mechs Arrested Blocking Road

Tue Sep 20, 2005 9:59 am

Quoting B744F (Reply 3):
Damn those AMFA members for trying to use the only power they have to demand wages so they can put food on the table.

You have forgotten that there is an obscure clause somewhere in the constitution stating that it is an unalienable right for the great unwashed the fly transcontinental for less than $ 99,- and to receive full service for it.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
N908AW
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RE: Former Amfa NW Mechs Arrested Blocking Road

Tue Sep 20, 2005 10:04 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 9):
You have forgotten that there is an obscure clause somewhere in the constitution stating that it is an unalienable right for the great unwashed the fly transcontinental for less than $ 99,- and to receive full service for it.

Jan

And yet have to pay $600 to fly to DTW.
'Cause you're on ATA again, and on ATA, you're on vacation!
 
Dougloid
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RE: Former Amfa NW Mechs Arrested Blocking Road

Tue Sep 20, 2005 10:18 am

Quoting Aogdesk (Reply 7):
Timmy, you're young and impressionable, and hopefully you have an open mind. You missed my point completely; that is that sometimes standing up for what you really believe in means that you may very well face prosecution or persecution. Thats the way its been for thousands of years, and it will continue to be that way. As far as misdemeanors showing up on their resume, consider this: A misdemeanor doesn't mean that you won't get hired. However, when your new aircraft maintenance employer finds out that you were a replacement worker for NW during the strike, that will probably seal your fate. Thats a fact.

I heard this from an old cotton farmer: Truth comes in three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Then, it is violently attacked. Then it becomes self evident.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
ASFlyer
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RE: Former Amfa NW Mechs Arrested Blocking Road

Tue Sep 20, 2005 11:37 am

Looks like AirRyan lost this thread - do you think he'll take his own advice and go away?

Just FYI - as far as the bankruptcy courts are concerned, AMFA is still the union that represents the mechanics and as much as Steenland wants to be rid of them, and as many times as he says it, it is not so. AMFA still represents the mechanics at NWA. Once the judge rules on what is to be of the mechanics they will then have but one legal choice, to come back and work under whatever rules are passed down to them or stay away and truly sign their pink slips. The SCABS could find themselves on the street.
 
AirRyan
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RE: Former Amfa NW Mechs Arrested Blocking Road

Tue Sep 20, 2005 12:11 pm

Quoting Dl757md (Reply 1):
But if some guy wants to waste his time with picketing over what is in your opinion a lost cause....who cares!! Because after all that's his right as well. And while it may not be their right to block traffic, we do have a justice system in place to deal with behavior like that. So I say again...WHO CARES!

Our society is too full of bums living off the laurels of someone elses hard work so the last thing we need is recently displaced workers duped by their union into believing they may get their jobs back - AMFA lost this battle a long time ago and Ch11 for NW changes nothing for them.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 2):
Ummmmmm, call me ignorant but where's it say they were AMFA members? They coulda been scabs out to make a name for themselves.

Or...... they could have been members of the Minnesota Vikings offensive line as they obviously haven't been practicing much these past few weeks and had some free time on their hands!  Smile

Quoting Aogdesk (Reply 5):
Regardless of your views, its called standing up for what you believe in.

But with every debate there comes a time when you no longer have any case and must concede defeat - AMFA lost their disagreement with NW and Ch11 changes nothing for them - if NW had locked out the AMFA mechs than it would be a different story but since the AMFA mechs voluntarily choose to strike, they have no recourse even in BK court.

Drop your AMFA representation and maybe NW will take some of them back for a short period of time but the majority of the mechs need to wake up and realize they will never be going back to work for NW as they used to. How long before it starts getting cold up there and these guys wake up to the reality of the situation? I'm not saying I'm all happy and giddy over these guys losing their jobs but I really can't side with with those that refuse to accept reality.

Quoting Aogdesk (Reply 7):
However, when your new aircraft maintenance employer finds out that you were a replacement worker for NW during the strike, that will probably seal your fate. That's a fact.

A fact? Even IAM would likely take a replacement NW mech because they both had a common disagreement in AMFA. Besides, the replacement mechs have all been or soon will be offered permanent employment with NW so who's really the ones really losing the battle here?

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 12):
Looks like AirRyan lost this thread - do you think he'll take his own advice and go away?

God, Allah or even Buhdda forbid if I'm not out there picketing all day long and actually have a job! The only ones who have lost anything are the AMFA mechs - take it up with your union reps and ask them why you no longer have a paycheck coming in from NW!

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 12):
Just FYI - as far as the bankruptcy courts are concerned, AMFA is still the union that represents the mechanics and as much as Steenland wants to be rid of them, and as many times as he says it, it is not so. AMFA still represents the mechanics at NWA. Once the judge rules on what is to be of the mechanics they will then have but one legal choice, to come back and work under whatever rules are passed down to them or stay away and truly sign their pink slips. The SCABS could find themselves on the street.

Negative: Check your facts or simply just search the forums, that's already been addressed. When the AMFA mechs walked out they lost their right to represent the mechs at NW. On the other hand had NW locked out the AMFA mechs than they'd have a case but since they voluntarily walked out, Steenland neither any BK judge will grant AMFA any right to represent NW mechanics during Ch11 proceedings. If I was a mech represented by AMFA I'd really be looking for some answers - from my union reps.

What irks me most about AMFA is how they duped their constituents as in to believing they could get NW to somehow give them something they no longer had and it is because of these chumps that the pilots now stand a chance to lose their pensions unless Congress passes legislation for all the airlines.

Face it - AMFA at NW is over and it's time to move on - there are no more scabs, just regular NW Mechs who happen to not be represented by AMFA.
 
Dougloid
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RE: Former Amfa NW Mechs Arrested Blocking Road

Tue Sep 20, 2005 12:36 pm

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 13):
How long before it starts getting cold up there and these guys wake up to the reality of the situation? I'm not saying I'm all happy and giddy over these guys losing their jobs but I really can't side with with those that refuse to accept reality.

Well, if you're not all happy and giddy, why do you keep on coming back to the issue? In short, if you're a mere bystander, what in the hell is AMFA to you or you to it, or you to NW or NW to you? Why do you insist on beating the snot out of AMFA? Why don't you have yourself a "I hate organized labor" website so's you feel justified?



I don't think you have a dog in this fight any more than anyone else unless, as I suspect, you're thinking about scabbing but maybe are trying to justify it in your mind beforehand...

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 13):
Check your facts or simply just search the forums, that's already been addressed. When the AMFA mechs walked out they lost their right to represent the mechs at NW. On the other hand had NW locked out the AMFA mechs than they'd have a case but since they voluntarily walked out, Steenland neither any BK judge will grant AMFA any right to represent NW mechanics during Ch11 proceedings. If I was a mech represented by AMFA I'd really be looking for some answers - from my union reps.

You really don't have a grip. AMFA represents AMFA members. That contract did not go away and does not go away until a BK judge says it goes away...and that's a long way down the road yet. It isn't near as easy as you suppose unless you're living inside the BK judge's head.

I'm glad there are guys like you to guide the rest of us louts out of a sense of civic duty...America is a better place with you in it.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
SHUPirate1
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RE: Former Amfa NW Mechs Arrested Blocking Road

Tue Sep 20, 2005 12:38 pm

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 13):
Face it - AMFA at NW is over and it's time to move on - there are no more scabs, just regular NW Mechs who happen to not be represented by AMFA.

Correct me if I am wrong, but being that both Minnesota and Michigan are not right-to-work states, isn't it a requirement that any mechanics employed by Northwest Airlines in those states (Tennessee, being a right-to-work state, does not apply here) be a member of the Aircraft Mechanics Fraternal Association?
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
aogdesk
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RE: Former Amfa NW Mechs Arrested Blocking Road

Tue Sep 20, 2005 1:07 pm

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 13):
Negative: Check your facts or simply just search the forums

Since when did the hobbyists on Airliners.net become experts on bankruptcy court proceedings? The FACT is that many lawyers who have been asked about the situation have actually refused to speculate on the final outcome, and some have said outright that even though Steeland has announced his ruling, it may very well not stand up in court. Thats a fact.

AirRyan, the chip on your shoulder grows bigger by the second, please tell us why the vendetta against NW mechanics?

Oh, and why do you feel that you're the authority on when to concede defeat? Perhaps instead of beating us over the head with your tired attitude, you could simply accept the fact that there are different perspectives and opinions here. Every time you spew your negative venom, you chip away at your own credibility. There's not much left, so whats your next reply going to be?
 
AirRyan
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RE: Former Amfa NW Mechs Arrested Blocking Road

Tue Sep 20, 2005 1:16 pm

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 15):
Quoting AirRyan (Reply 13):
Face it - AMFA at NW is over and it's time to move on - there are no more scabs, just regular NW Mechs who happen to not be represented by AMFA.

Correct me if I am wrong, but being that both Minnesota and Michigan are not right-to-work states, isn't it a requirement that any mechanics employed by Northwest Airlines in those states (Tennessee, being a right-to-work state, does not apply here) be a member of the Aircraft Mechanics Fraternal Association?

We've had this debate in a previous thread as seen below...

How Soon Before Amfa Mechs Back On Job At NW? (by AirRyan Sep 14 2005 in Civil Aviation)

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 7):
Judges can't just order something because they want to. Legal precident is involved, as is the court system. The fundamental problem here is that AMFA walked off the job. Therefore, they would have to convience a judge that a bankrupt airline (which arguably doesn't have the cash to pay them) should be forced to go for a more expensive options (which creditors and management would immediately object too) and allow a workforce (which walked off the job in the first place, helping to trip the BK) back into work (which would have a negative effect on morale).

Can you think of a legal precident for this? I sure can't.

Even if there was some precident or legal logic that allowed this, the union would have to be granted standing in the court (which is arguable, since either no contract is in force between NW and the union itself right now, or the union is in violation of it), be allowed to ask for a motion to force the company to hire someone, not have the creditors object (remember, the creditors can cut anyone off at their knees if they so choose) and have a judge agree that the best interest of the creditors is for them to return.

And then you have to survive a appeal. Not very likely at all.



Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 12):
Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 10):
At this point, with the 30-day cooling off period expired, both sides are able to seek "self-help". In layman's terms, Northwest is free to apply any terms they see fit. If they wanted to impose $5.15 an hour wages on the mechanics, with no benefits whatsoever, they would be perfectly free to do that. That said, the mechanics are also free to walk off the job if they don't like the terms imposed on them, and they obviously took that option.

Actually, not true. A bankrupt company is forbidden from making any new contracts without explicit approval from the judge. Normally one of the first motions is something along the line of a motion to enable the company to use certain cash to pay absolutly critical business proccesses. Larger contracts, including any new union contract would be a long drawn out procedure in the courts.

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 10):

Truth be told, with the employees being taken off the property before the end of their shifts the day before the strike began, a lawyer could make the case that the AMFA employees were locked out of work, rather than striking voluntarily.

I doubt that would fly in any courthouse in the nation. AMFA announced it's intention to strike and made it very very public. northwest's reaction is completly understandable given the knowledge of a hostile workforce about to strike.



Quoting Alphascan (Reply 13):
Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 10):
Truth be told, with the employees being taken off the property before the end of their shifts the day before the strike began, a lawyer could make the case that the AMFA employees were locked out of work, rather than striking voluntarily.

They were free to report for work at their next scheduled shift. No judge would consider that a lock out.



Quoting Dougloid (Reply 14):
Quoting AirRyan (Reply 13):
How long before it starts getting cold up there and these guys wake up to the reality of the situation? I'm not saying I'm all happy and giddy over these guys losing their jobs but I really can't side with with those that refuse to accept reality.

Well, if you're not all happy and giddy, why do you keep on coming back to the issue? In short, if you're a mere bystander, what in the hell is AMFA to you or you to it, or you to NW or NW to you? Why do you insist on beating the snot out of AMFA? Why don't you have yourself a "I hate organized labor" website so's you feel justified?



I don't think you have a dog in this fight any more than anyone else unless, as I suspect, you're thinking about scabbing but maybe are trying to justify it in your mind beforehand...

Let's just say I'm a former avionics tech so I understand the perspective of the aviation mechanic but I can also see the other side of the argument from the perspective of the fiscal realities of operating an airline with some of the highest labor costs in a time when fuel has spike to that three times what it used to be just two years ago.

From what I have seen AMFA lured a lot mechs over from IAM by promising them chimerical delusions of being tough with the management regardless of the realities of the industry and in my opinion that was irresponsible because AMFA could not fulfill on those promises and they knew if push ever came to shove, NW management knew how to "bust" their union as they have shown. I feel that AMFA has disserviced these mechanics and had they stayed under IAM would have been given better advice and we likely would never had even seen a mech strike at NW.
 
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RE: Former Amfa NW Mechs Arrested Blocking Road

Tue Sep 20, 2005 1:20 pm

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 13):
Steenland neither any BK judge will grant AMFA any right to represent NW mechanics during Ch11 proceedings.

Good bad or indifferent this is the case. NW will not concede that the AMFA belongs in the courtroom; thus, unless the AMFA wins a lawsuit to enter NW's CH11, they're locked out. Remember, there is no contract once a strike starts!

Oh, there is some legal room for AMFA to return, but it is FAR from a given. Its also next to impossible at this point for the small stations to be taken back from the outsourced vendors; I'm sure their contacts had CH11 provisions.

Does anyone know if AMFA has filed the required suit to get into the courtroom?

Quote:

The two men arrested were cited for interfering with a lawful order and obstructing traffic.

It sounds like one pair of strikers got too emotional. Judging from the numbers the article implies ("More than a hundred cars") this wasn't replacement mechanics... Its almost as if the AMFA wanted press.

Quoting Aogdesk (Reply 7):
However, when your new aircraft maintenance employer finds out that you were a replacement worker for NW during the strike, that will probably seal your fate. Thats a fact.

??? This might be true in a union shop but isn't in a non-union shop (like ours).

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 13):
What irks me most about AMFA is how they duped their constituents as in to believing they could get NW to somehow give them something they no longer had and it is because of these chumps that the pilots now stand a chance to lose their pensions unless Congress passes legislation for all the airlines.

Valid point. NW was in trouble and the AMFA promised more than anyone could deliver. Now, I understand the counter argument, if I had been in the 53% targeted for layoff, a strike vote would have been a sure thing from me. However, as someone who reads economics as a hobby... The results were a little too obvious. Hopefully some of the pensions can be saved.  pessimist 

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 11):
Truth comes in three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Then, it is violently attacked. Then it becomes self evident.

That is exactly what is happening with the current global economy. People are getting emotional rather than adapting. Oh, we need to force China to float their currency and change a few protectionist laws, but the reality is the world of our parents is no more. My college orientation noted that I should expect to change jobs every five years. The same idea was told to my sister and many of my cousins when they entered college. (Sorry, no link.) The new environment is simple: Continuous improvement or get out of the way.

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
AirRyan
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RE: Former Amfa NW Mechs Arrested Blocking Road

Tue Sep 20, 2005 1:32 pm

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 18):
That is exactly what is happening with the current global economy. People are getting emotional rather than adapting. Oh, we need to force China to float their currency and change a few protectionist laws, but the reality is the world of our parents is no more.

Absolutely! ...and this is where I think we all on either side of the NW mechanic/AMFA debate are in agreement but just have different opinions as to how to accomplish our goals of maintaining our (read: USA) place in the present and future global marketplace.
 
N867BX
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RE: Former Amfa NW Mechs Arrested Blocking Road

Tue Sep 20, 2005 1:44 pm

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 13):
Or...... they could have been members of the Minnesota Vikings offensive line as they obviously haven't been practicing much these past few weeks and had some free time on their hands!

Do you think the Vikings offensive line could done such a good job of blocking traffic?
 
aogdesk
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RE: Former Amfa NW Mechs Arrested Blocking Road

Tue Sep 20, 2005 1:54 pm

AirRyan, in all of your arguments, you conveniently omit one small but very important detail. I can only assume that you're unaware of the realities of aircraft maintenance, and thereby can't comprehend the gravity of the situation.

Here's an excerpt from the-mechanic.com, (please spare me your opinions on the site itself and focus on this seemingly credible posting:

The labor rate at Timco varies by volume. UAL for example pays around $39 per hour because of such high volume. ABX pays around $44. If you walk in for a one time only job it can be $48 - $50. The reason this is good for the airline is because they only pay for the WORKED time. During the NWA mecahnics slowdown from 1996 - 2005 they paid for hours weather you worked or not, this didn't seem like a good deal for the airlines. Paying $40 per hour for contract labor is a bargin. Quality does suffer. The techs at NWA are very talented as opposed to their TIMCO counterparts but the $$$ saved have significant impact on the bottom line. TIMCO has been positioning themselves to take over line maintenance for the past 2 years. This is an area they didn't do in the past. The industry changed significantly in the past 4 years and you guys were took your eye off the ball. My thought is is every man (women) for themselves.

Quality does suffer. But the almighty dollar prevails. You're ok with that I presume? Doesn't mean a thing does it? Must be yet another disgruntled AMFA idiot. Can't be true. The FAA wouldn't let it be. Airlines would never let that happen. Your response please?
 
AirRyan
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RE: Former Amfa NW Mechs Arrested Blocking Road

Tue Sep 20, 2005 1:57 pm

Quoting N867BX (Reply 20):
Quoting AirRyan (Reply 13):
Or...... they could have been members of the Minnesota Vikings offensive line as they obviously haven't been practicing much these past few weeks and had some free time on their hands!

Do you think the Vikings offensive line could done such a good job of blocking traffic?

Ha! Not likely - good point!  Smile The Vikings O-Line is the root of all their evils this year and I've never seen such a dissapointing Vikings performance in decades these past two games.

I'd still like to see a Vikings logo on the nose of a NW aircraft similar to that of one of my favorite liveries in Hawaiian Air when they were flying the Oakland Raiders around.


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777Purser
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RE: Former Amfa NW Mechs Arrested Blocking Road

Tue Sep 20, 2005 4:11 pm

Quoting AirRyan (Thread starter):
Wow, what part of "you lost" do these AMFA mechs not understand? The AMFA mechs voluntarily walked off the job and so they have no voice in impending the Ch11 proceedings with NW.

No one wins. NWA management has lost as well... they are bankrupt and unable to work together with their labor groups. Leave it alone already. Your negative remarks and anti labor comments are getting old already.
 
MxCtrlr
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RE: Former Amfa NW Mechs Arrested Blocking Road

Tue Sep 20, 2005 7:01 pm

Also something that no one has picked up on here is that these mechanics are still technically NWA employees. NWA cannot unilaterally fire them - they can replace them - but they cannot fire striking workers. They did not "walk off the job" so to speak, they engaged in a legal job action - at strike - which is not to be confused with "walking off the job". Its a question of semantics, I understand, but it is a fine diferentiation.

National Airlines went through a similar situation in 1969 (and that started as a wildcat walkout by the IAM), fired the striking workers and "moved on". 18 months later, those "fired" workers returned to their jobs, with a new contract in place, because the company did not have the right to fire them, only replace them.

There is precident for AMFA returning to the table under the BK judge's orders. Just because Steenland wants to believe he's rid of AMFA, doesn't make it so.

MxCtrlr  bouncy 
DAMN! This SUCKS! I just had to go to the next higher age bracket in my profile! :-(
 
Boeing757/767
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RE: Former Amfa NW Mechs Arrested Blocking Road

Tue Sep 20, 2005 9:19 pm

No matter how you feel about this highly charged issue -- and I happen to agree with the original poster -- the fact is, once you break the law to make a point, you lose credibility. In this case whatever little credibility AMFA has left.
Free-thinking, left-leaning secularist
 
frequentflyer
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RE: Former Amfa NW Mechs Arrested Blocking Road

Tue Sep 20, 2005 11:13 pm

They broke the Law. Bad
They got arrested. Good
They were released. No comment.
They now have negative credibility & image. Bad for them, but they created it.
Take off and live
 
AirRyan
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RE: Former Amfa NW Mechs Arrested Blocking Road

Wed Sep 21, 2005 12:13 am

Quoting Aogdesk (Reply 21):
AirRyan, in all of your arguments, you conveniently omit one small but very important detail. I can only assume that you're unaware of the realities of aircraft maintenance, and thereby can't comprehend the gravity of the situation.

Here's an excerpt from the-mechanic.com, (please spare me your opinions on the site itself and focus on this seemingly credible posting:

The labor rate at Timco varies by volume. UAL for example pays around $39 per hour because of such high volume. ABX pays around $44. If you walk in for a one time only job it can be $48 - $50. The reason this is good for the airline is because they only pay for the WORKED time. During the NWA mecahnics slowdown from 1996 - 2005 they paid for hours weather you worked or not, this didn't seem like a good deal for the airlines. Paying $40 per hour for contract labor is a bargin. Quality does suffer. The techs at NWA are very talented as opposed to their TIMCO counterparts but the $$$ saved have significant impact on the bottom line. TIMCO has been positioning themselves to take over line maintenance for the past 2 years. This is an area they didn't do in the past. The industry changed significantly in the past 4 years and you guys were took your eye off the ball. My thought is is every man (women) for themselves.

Quality does suffer. But the almighty dollar prevails. You're ok with that I presume? Doesn't mean a thing does it? Must be yet another disgruntled AMFA idiot. Can't be true. The FAA wouldn't let it be. Airlines would never let that happen. Your response please?

I worked my ass off in the Marines for pennies on the dollars sometimes 80 to 90 hours a week to get our geriatric Vietnam-era helicopters up in the air so we could accomplish our mission, in cold weather on the flightline and overseas or foreign soil, forgive me if I somehow lack sympathy for the decisions that these AMFA mechs have meade for themselves. Make no mistake, I'm not anti-union in general but I do wholeheartidly disagree with AMFA on this issue.

What I do understand is that these AMFA mechs or rather their union reps fail to comprehend the reality of the economics of running a profitable airline in 2005 and beyond where gas prices are twice that of what they used to be and competition is as stiff as it has ever been. Take a paycut and accept that NW doesn't need all their mechs as they once used to because of NW's new business model, or STFU and eat some reality.

Quoting 777Purser (Reply 23):
Quoting AirRyan (Thread starter):
Wow, what part of "you lost" do these AMFA mechs not understand? The AMFA mechs voluntarily walked off the job and so they have no voice in impending the Ch11 proceedings with NW.

No one wins. NWA management has lost as well... they are bankrupt and unable to work together with their labor groups. Leave it alone already. Your negative remarks and anti labor comments are getting old already.

And who's going to lose the most here because of these AMFA mechs and their ignorant reluctance to accept reality? The pilots union. Wow, can't wait to see the Christmas cards NW pilots send to their beloved AMFA mechs this year.

Quoting MxCtrlr (Reply 24):
Also something that no one has picked up on here is that these mechanics are still technically NWA employees.

Not according to Steenland - he says the AMFA contract is void. I guess we'll just have to wait and see what a BK judge rules because until then, no one's opinon really matters much. But also until than no AMFA mech will be working at NW and the odds are, Steenland and his lawyers have a little more resources available to them and so if I had to bet money on one side versus the other, I'd put my money on NW management and not the ineptitude of MacFarlane and AFMA. Even so, if a court somehow did rule to bring the AMFA mechs back they would be on terms more akin to the latest offer by NW and not anything near that of what they are thinking - and that's still a loss for AMFA anyways. Good job guys!

Quoting MxCtrlr (Reply 24):
Also something that no one has picked up on here is that these mechanics are still technically NWA employees. NWA cannot unilaterally fire them - they can replace them - but they cannot fire striking workers. They did not "walk off the job" so to speak, they engaged in a legal job action - at strike - which is not to be confused with "walking off the job". Its a question of semantics, I understand, but it is a fine diferentiation.

Where again is the bullshit concept of having a right to work for a company?! Since it appears to be AMFA's MO to ignore reality I'm not going to even engage in this argument of one opinion over another. Steenland has said that AMFA's contract has been terminated and will have no voice in the bankruptcy proceedings. MacFarlane is the same dumbass who led these lemmings over their cliff and now he's grasping at straws. According to this genius, he asserts that even any replacement mech at NW is actually being represented by AMFA - how far will these unions go before people pull their collective heads outta their asses and realize it is they who are being repressed and being done so not by the proverbial "management" but rather these conspiring union reps who conciously refuse to act on behalf of the best interests of their constituents.

Personally, as a NW pilot or member of NW management I would wage my own strike before some hippie-liberal judge tried to bend the law to their own delusions and order AMFA mechs back to work on NW aircraft. AMFA is toast at NW - image, reputation, and beyond.

http://news.minnesota.publicradio.or...res/2005/09/16_stawickie_nwalabor/

http://home.businesswire.com/portal/...&newsId=20050916005372&newsLang=en

Again, this is the perspective I tend to agree with - any such precedents 36 years old and before airline deregulation will hold little correlation in today's BK courts...

Quote:
Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 7):
Judges can't just order something because they want to. Legal precident is involved, as is the court system. The fundamental problem here is that AMFA walked off the job. Therefore, they would have to convience a judge that a bankrupt airline (which arguably doesn't have the cash to pay them) should be forced to go for a more expensive options (which creditors and management would immediately object too) and allow a workforce (which walked off the job in the first place, helping to trip the BK) back into work (which would have a negative effect on morale).

Can you think of a legal precident for this? I sure can't.

Even if there was some precident or legal logic that allowed this, the union would have to be granted standing in the court (which is arguable, since either no contract is in force between NW and the union itself right now, or the union is in violation of it), be allowed to ask for a motion to force the company to hire someone, not have the creditors object (remember, the creditors can cut anyone off at their knees if they so choose) and have a judge agree that the best interest of the creditors is for them to return.

And then you have to survive a appeal. Not very likely at all.


[Edited 2005-09-20 17:17:17]
 
Dougloid
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RE: Former Amfa NW Mechs Arrested Blocking Road

Wed Sep 21, 2005 1:13 am

Suggested for deletion.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
777Purser
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RE: Former Amfa NW Mechs Arrested Blocking Road

Wed Sep 21, 2005 2:09 am

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 28):
Suggested for deletion.

I second the motion...
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
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RE: Former Amfa NW Mechs Arrested Blocking Road

Wed Sep 21, 2005 2:17 am

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 2):
It sounds like a scably thing to do.

No it doesn't, and that's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. The scabs are hardworking Americans that appreciate the fact they have a job and don't want everything handed to them for free.

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 12):
Looks like AirRyan lost this thread

Not really.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 14):
I'm glad there are guys like you to guide the rest of us louts out of a sense of civic duty...America is a better place with you in it.

If you think its your civic duty to try to run your employer out of business because your job can be done by someone else for cheaper, then you don't belong in America. Here in America, we're a free market. You compete or you lose.

I do a great job every day, because I don't have a bunch of whiny union execs to defend me when I don't. If I get fired tomorrow, its nobody's fault but my own. If someone else can do the same job I can do for cheaper, its because I'm doing something wrong.

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 18):
Remember, there is no contract once a strike starts!

Bingo. Its over.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 28):
Suggested for deletion.

That was terribly mature. Lets delete all the threads you don't agree with.

N
 
irev210
Posts: 36
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 2:49 am

RE: Former Amfa NW Mechs Arrested Blocking Road

Wed Sep 21, 2005 2:17 am

Quoting B744F (Reply 3):
Damn those AMFA members for trying to use the only power they have to demand wages so they can put food on the table.

Um, average mechanic was making 70k a year. The party at NW has ended.

Good ol' B744F, the guy who thinks that every american should make more than 100k a year.

B744F, you never do say how much the Average american should make.

It is amazing that someone who makes double the national average needs more to put food on their plate. It was great that they were able to get that wage, but the party has ended. To make ticket prices lower, and stay competitive to all the other airlines, you need to pay less (around 45-55k) instead of 70k. It is helping poor americans who cant pay $500 for a plane ticket have the chance to buy one for $200 and relocate themselves in perhaps a better location, where they can get a better job, and create a better life for themselves that otherwise would not be avalible.


You cant force things onto an economy. You cant say EVERYONE should make 100k a year, otherwise a loaf of bread would cost $20. If a mech whom is equally qualified will take the same job that a NW mech was doing for 70k for only 45k... what do you think is going to happen?



Another story all together are bigger strikes like UPS and Boeing, where the labor controls the managment.
 
777Purser
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RE: Former Amfa NW Mechs Arrested Blocking Road

Wed Sep 21, 2005 2:46 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 30):
That was terribly mature. Lets delete all the threads you don't agree with.

I am with Dougloid. It is not a matter or liking a thread or not, but rather the intention behind it. American Labor has the right to representation through Unions. Highlighting isolated events like this is not well intentioned.
Unions have to be regarded as historically and currently relevant for American Middle Class; Unions are the watchdog for coorporate greed and the advocates for workers rights. They create balance and implement safety standarts. People with strong opinions against Unions seem not to be familiar with what Unions actually do.
 
AirRyan
Topic Author
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RE: Former Amfa NW Mechs Arrested Blocking Road

Wed Sep 21, 2005 3:53 am

Quoting 777Purser (Reply 32):
Quoting Gigneil (Reply 30):
That was terribly mature. Lets delete all the threads you don't agree with.

I am with Dougloid. It is not a matter or liking a thread or not, but rather the intention behind it. American Labor has the right to representation through Unions. Highlighting isolated events like this is not well intentioned.
Unions have to be regarded as historically and currently relevant for American Middle Class; Unions are the watchdog for coorporate greed and the advocates for workers rights. They create balance and implement safety standarts. People with strong opinions against Unions seem not to be familiar with what Unions actually do.

My disagreements lies with AMFA in the case of NW as it pertains to the former strike. I disagree with your comments about unions as they are sterotypical and outdated at best but I'm the wrong one here?

AMFA mechs at NW wanted to run the airline into the ground and while they may have achieved their goal of forcing NW to file Ch11 and have the pilots face a very real possibilty that they may lose their pensions, AMFA at NW has not and in my opinion will not see their goal of seeing NW cease to exist which is exactly what would happen had AMFA achieved their goals and NW was forced to keep all of their mechs at the high rates. I've studied organizations and labor unions in college and I'm not ranting about unions in general but this particular union at this particular airline at this particular time.
 
frequentflyer
Posts: 708
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 3:22 am

RE: Former Amfa NW Mechs Arrested Blocking Road

Wed Sep 21, 2005 4:17 am

Quoting 777Purser (Reply 32):
Highlighting isolated events like this is not well intentioned.


No Sir. Illegal events should be highlighted, reported, punished and decried.

Quoting 777Purser (Reply 32):
They create balance and implement safety standarts. People with strong opinions against Unions seem not to be familiar with what Unions actually do.

A bit easy don't you think?! You do not understand unions because you do not agreee with me on unions... that's your stance. That does not fly.

Ahem... unions implement safety standards... yeah sure. The unions are everybody's providence in your book? Just open your eyes and take off the filters you have in front of them.

Be sure I respect your respect of unions, however your latest arguments are somewhat weird.
Take off and live
 
supa7E7
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RE: Former Amfa NW Mechs Arrested Blocking Road

Wed Sep 21, 2005 4:53 am

Quoting 777Purser (Reply 32):
Unions are the watchdog for coorporate greed and the advocates for workers rights

Oh whatever. The outfits that make real money -- Microsoft, Pfizer, Halliburton, Altria, Medtronic -- don't give a rat's patootie about unions.

If I open a hardware store, am I guilty of corporate greed? What if I buy some shares of CitiBank stock? We're all greedy and the unions are no different -- certainly no obstacle -- to that impulse.
"Who's to say spaceships aren't fine art?" - Phil Lesh
 
777Purser
Posts: 215
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 4:47 pm

RE: Former Amfa NW Mechs Arrested Blocking Road

Wed Sep 21, 2005 5:24 am

Quoting Supa7e7 (Reply 35):
Oh whatever. The outfits that make real money -- Microsoft, Pfizer, Halliburton, Altria, Medtronic -- don't give a rat's patootie about unions.

Out of context. The Industry in discussion is aviation.
 
777Purser
Posts: 215
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RE: Former Amfa NW Mechs Arrested Blocking Road

Wed Sep 21, 2005 5:27 am

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 33):
I'm not ranting about unions in general but this particular union at this particular airline at this particular time.

I appreciate you clarifying this to me. Some other prople in this room do seem to be radically anti Labor.
 
aogdesk
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RE: Former Amfa NW Mechs Arrested Blocking Road

Wed Sep 21, 2005 6:33 am

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 33):
AMFA mechs at NW wanted to run the airline into the ground and while they may have achieved their goal of forcing NW to file Ch11

AirRyan, this is nothing short of ludicrous!!! AMFA forced NW to file? You've got a short to ground there my friend. How does it make any sense that once mechanics forfeited their salaries, they forced a company into Cha. 11?? NW management offered to slash almost 50% of the workforce, and indicated that if this happened, they'd be on target to meet their cost reduction objectives. Instead, AMFA in essence gave them 100% less workforce and still they couldn't make it. Delusional perspective :-0

Oh, and your repeated sidestepping of the safety issue is growing just slightly annoying. Care to elaborate?
 
Dougloid
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RE: Former Amfa NW Mechs Arrested Blocking Road

Wed Sep 21, 2005 6:37 am

Quoting Supa7e7 (Reply 35):
Oh whatever. The outfits that make real money -- Microsoft, Pfizer, Halliburton, Altria, Medtronic -- don't give a rat's patootie about unions.

Just watch your lungs around Phillip Morris OOPS! Altria.....sounds ever so much nicer than lung cancer and emphysema...
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
aogdesk
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RE: Former Amfa NW Mechs Arrested Blocking Road

Wed Sep 21, 2005 6:49 am

LOL.....Altria....nice example. Of course they wouldn't give a damn about unions. They'd simply hand out boxes of 'product' for everyone and those pesky unions would be gone forever.

Oh, and for your information, rat's patootie is an active ingredient in that carton of cigarettes sold to you by that family values company Altria.

I guess it all comes down to money huh?? Who can make 'real money'?

But I digress.
 
aa757first
Posts: 3140
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RE: Former Amfa NW Mechs Arrested Blocking Road

Wed Sep 21, 2005 6:57 am

Quoting Aogdesk (Reply 7):
However, when your new aircraft maintenance employer finds out that you were a replacement worker for NW during the strike, that will probably seal your fate. Thats a fact.

Wouldn't the company be interested in a scab?

AAndrew
 
aogdesk
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RE: Former Amfa NW Mechs Arrested Blocking Road

Wed Sep 21, 2005 7:24 am

Aandrew, I guess it makes sense that they would be, but you have to consider that many managers are former mechanics who likely worked for a carrier that at one time or another had labor problems. They'd have to take into account that a) the scab is likely going to be a distraction and b) that if you're willing to scab, you MIGHT have other questionable practices.

I'm open to thoughts from others on this??
 
gigneil
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RE: Former Amfa NW Mechs Arrested Blocking Road

Wed Sep 21, 2005 7:37 am

Quoting 777Purser (Reply 32):
People with strong opinions against Unions seem not to be familiar with what Unions actually do.

I am a well educated individual. I am completely aware of what they do. I am also completely aware that their usefulness expired at the end of the industrial revolution.

Today's unions, especially at airlines, are little more than organized blackmail, and unions have no place in the modern free market.

Most of America's workforce is not represented by a Union. These are hardworking people who know that their job can be done by someone else and act accordingly. In my line of work, I am dependent on Union labor to accomplish my goals and have been consistently appalled by the work ethic that a unionized enviroment instills in many members.

There is, of course, a caveat to my overgeneralization. Most union members are hardworking citizens, and a very large number of those even would love to do the job they have without being required to be in the union. I have a lot of respect for those people.

N
 
aogdesk
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RE: Former Amfa NW Mechs Arrested Blocking Road

Wed Sep 21, 2005 8:21 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 43):
I am a well educated individual. I am completely aware of what they do. I am also completely aware that their usefulness expired at the end of the industrial revolution.

Well there you have it folks, time to go home. He's well educated and he's got the definitive answers that defy argument. Is it just me, or can I actually picture his nose in the air as he typed that?

That type of arrogance doesn't even merit a reasonable response. Therefore there shall be none.
 
777Purser
Posts: 215
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 4:47 pm

RE: Former Amfa NW Mechs Arrested Blocking Road

Wed Sep 21, 2005 8:24 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 43):
unions have no place in the modern free market.

Ok...lets just wait and see how things unfold at say...Delta. I am interested in knowing what happens to the non union FA's, really, I am curious. I will not challenge you on this statement, lets just wat and see.
 
AirRyan
Topic Author
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RE: Former Amfa NW Mechs Arrested Blocking Road

Wed Sep 21, 2005 8:29 am

Quoting Aogdesk (Reply 38):
AirRyan, this is nothing short of ludicrous!!! AMFA forced NW to file?

I believe it was MacFarlane himself who right before the deadline to initially strike say that he/they would rather see NW declare bankruptcy than give in to their concessions. That may have been his gut impulse at that moment but speaking on behalf of the members he was representing he did them no favors with such comments like that. NW had to make changes and the AMFA mechs were preventing them from making these necessary changes in order to curtail the losses. NW has/had one of the highest labor costs in the industry and simply needed to make those changes. Of course it's not pleasant when anyone has to lose their jobs but what did AMFA think NW was going to continue to be able to pay their salaries with when because of fuel spikes and rabid competition they simply were not able to turn a profit. I just don't agree with the stance of the union preventing management from running their business as a business and not some social charity.

Quoting Aogdesk (Reply 38):
Oh, and your repeated sidestepping of the safety issue is growing just slightly annoying. Care to elaborate?

What issue? An FAA certified A&P rating has no levels of experience, that's what a mech's resume is for. I've flown on NW DC-9's just last week and guess what - I'm still here to tell you about it! If the FAA believed NW was operating unsafely they wouldn't even wait for a report to be finalized, they'd shut down ops immediately. Granted replacement mechs may not have as much experience as some of these elderly AMFA statesmen but guess what, even if it takes just a little longer and they can still get the job done the mission is accomplished. Some of this rhetoric from AMFA mechs as if their own shat don't stink has already "grown slightly annoying."

Quoting Aogdesk (Reply 42):
They'd have to take into account that a) the scab is likely going to be a distraction and b) that if you're willing to scab, you MIGHT have other questionable practices.

I'm open to thoughts from others on this??

But the thing is when you interview an individual they could have a stellar resume and not so much as speeding ticket yet still turn out to be next Jeffry Dahmner at a snap for whatever reason. You don't have to be an avid fan of labor unions in order to be a good mechanic and some of these people not only just want to work but many have no choice - if they can't work somewhere say NW than they have to go and find something or somewhere else to work.

I saw where the UAW gave these AMFA mechs $880k in support and I hope that money goes to help those mechs who have recently stopped receiving a paycheck from NW because of this strike, but I think the best thing AMFA could have done was reach the best compromise they could have as early as they could have and directed their attention and efforts to finding the remaining mechs a job with another airline or industry all together.
 
aogdesk
Posts: 748
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RE: Former Amfa NW Mechs Arrested Blocking Road

Wed Sep 21, 2005 8:36 am

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 46):
What issue? An FAA certified A&P rating has no levels of experience, that's what a mech's resume is for. I've flown on NW DC-9's just last week and guess what - I'm still here to tell you about it! If the FAA believed NW was operating unsafely they wouldn't even wait for a report to be finalized, they'd shut down ops immediately.

Ooooh......Somebody drank the kool-aid......an open mind is a terrible thing to waste.
 
aogdesk
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RE: Former Amfa NW Mechs Arrested Blocking Road

Wed Sep 21, 2005 8:37 am

So you're going to tell me that everything that i have PERSONALLY seen in this industry lacks credibility?

Are you an A&P?
 
777Purser
Posts: 215
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RE: Former Amfa NW Mechs Arrested Blocking Road

Wed Sep 21, 2005 8:46 am

Quoting Aogdesk (Reply 44):
Well there you have it folks, time to go home. He's well educated and he's got the definitive answers that defy argument. Is it just me, or can I actually picture his nose in the air as he typed that?

That type of arrogance doesn't even merit a reasonable response. Therefore there shall be none.

AAAA-MEN....

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