N1120A
Topic Author
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Why Only NW To Kitchener?

Wed Sep 21, 2005 3:46 am

Ok, so this is a totally selfish question, as my girlfriend lives in Cambridge, ON and YKF is closer than YYZ, YHM or BUF and would be a lot easier to fly into.

So, how come Northwest are the only ones flying into YKF? Why are there not a few AC regional/jazz flights, or some UAX/Eagle Turbo-Props into YKF to give NW some competition?
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
accargo
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RE: Why Only NW To Kitchener?

Wed Sep 21, 2005 3:53 am

As with most questions like this, there is simply not enough demand. If airlines thought they could make money flying these kinds of routes they would. I wouldn't be surprised to see NW drop it as part of their restructuring under Ch11.
 
AirRyan
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RE: Why Only NW To Kitchener?

Wed Sep 21, 2005 3:55 am

Quoting Accargo (Reply 1):
I wouldn't be surprised to see NW drop it as part of their restructuring under Ch11.

I agree, look for NW to streamline and weed out all of their unprofitable routes.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: Why Only NW To Kitchener?

Wed Sep 21, 2005 4:16 am

Quoting N1120A (Thread starter):
So, how come Northwest are the only ones flying into YKF? Why are there not a few AC regional/jazz flights, or some UAX/Eagle Turbo-Props into YKF to give NW some competition?

As for the Canadian airlines, I have no idea why, I don't know that much about them.

As for UAX or American Eagle, they don't have the right aircraft types, nor would they bother do to the limitiations at ORD. Both are all-jet out of ORD and would not waste RJ's on this market.

Quoting Accargo (Reply 1):
As with most questions like this, there is simply not enough demand. If airlines thought they could make money flying these kinds of routes they would. I wouldn't be surprised to see NW drop it as part of their restructuring under Ch11.

NW started this route about 2 years ago, and it has been performing quite well. Kitchner & Hamilton area have a lot of manufacturing & other business require air service to/from the United States. DTW is a powerful hub that can provide service to those who don't want to use YYZ.

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 2):
I agree, look for NW to streamline and weed out all of their unprofitable routes.

Again, I will reinterate my point. The frequency and type of aircraft says nothing about the viability and profitability of a city. Just because a city only gets 3 Saab's a day doesn't automatically mean it is unprofitable or likely to be dropped. They match capacity with demand. What if YKF provided a lot of feed connecting onto DTW-NRT? You and I don't know that, but don't go and make unsubstanciated comments that you expect this market to be dropped just because it is "small".
 
N1120A
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RE: Why Only NW To Kitchener?

Wed Sep 21, 2005 4:20 am

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 3):
As for UAX or American Eagle, they don't have the right aircraft types,

Of course they have the right types. UAX uses Saabs and Brasilias and Eagle uses Saabs (ATRs too, but only out of San Juan)

Quoting Accargo (Reply 1):
If airlines thought they could make money flying these kinds of routes they would. I wouldn't be surprised to see NW drop it as part of their restructuring under Ch11.

Airlines fly these routes all the time and do make money for them. It is flying routes that should be mainline with contracted RJs that loses big bucks. Given the fares that NW commands into YKF, I think they do just fine
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: Why Only NW To Kitchener?

Wed Sep 21, 2005 4:22 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 4):
Of course they have the right types. UAX uses Saabs and Brasilias and Eagle uses Saabs (ATRs too, but only out of San Juan)

They don't have the right aircraft types in ORD do operate into YKF, thats all that matters. Who cares what they operate on the other side of the US
 
MAH4546
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RE: Why Only NW To Kitchener?

Wed Sep 21, 2005 4:23 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 4):
Eagle uses Saabs (ATRs too, but only out of San Juan)

Eagle's Saabs are LAX and DFW-based; the ATRs are MIA and SJU-based. No props anywhere else. And the ATR is way too big an aircraft. It holds 68 people.
a.
 
matt
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RE: Why Only NW To Kitchener?

Wed Sep 21, 2005 4:25 am

Well, at least Kitchener will get a bit of action this winter. Skyservice will be operating charter flights to Cancun (twice a week), to Punta Cana (once a week) and to Varadero (once a week). They start in late December and finish in late March. I imagine Skyservice will be using their A319 (or possibly A320).
Next flights: YQM-YOW-YOW / YQM-YYZ-CPH-YYZ-YQM / YQM-YUL-LYS-BRU-YUL-YQM / YQM-PUJ-YQM
 
Boeing757/767
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RE: Why Only NW To Kitchener?

Wed Sep 21, 2005 4:28 am

As mentioned above, keep in mind that even if 12 people were on a 34-seat Saab, those 12, or most of them, might be paying big bucks on a last-minute ticket to NRT via DTW.
Free-thinking, left-leaning secularist
 
accargo
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RE: Why Only NW To Kitchener?

Wed Sep 21, 2005 4:31 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 4):
Airlines fly these routes all the time and do make money for them. It is flying routes that should be mainline with contracted RJs that loses big bucks. Given the fares that NW commands into YKF, I think they do just fine

Okay then why do you think no one else operates into YKF?

Here's another possible answer: Airlines can make more money elsewhere with their acft than they can on a route like this.

NW may be doing just fine, but is there enough demand for a second airline?
 
yow
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RE: Why Only NW To Kitchener?

Wed Sep 21, 2005 5:25 am

Quoting Accargo (Reply 1):
As with most questions like this, there is simply not enough demand. If airlines thought they could make money flying these kinds of routes they would. I wouldn't be surprised to see NW drop it as part of their restructuring under Ch11.

The demand is there, how could there not be from a city of almost 1/2 millon, it's just that most of it is directed to YYZ, with a bit going to YHM, BUF & YXU. On YKF's website, they have a report showing they believe the local O&D from Kitchener-Waterloo currently stands at 1.1 million. I doubt NW with be dropping YKF in their restructuring.

A startup airline called Air Province http://www.airprovince.ca wants to launch commuter service to YOW.
 
KarlB737
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RE: Why Only NW To Kitchener?

Wed Sep 21, 2005 5:29 am

Quoting N1120A (Thread starter):
how come Northwest are the only ones flying into YKF?

Be glad you got that. What if you lived in Benton Harbor, MI. (BEH),
or Lafayette, Indiana (LAF) to name a couple that have lost ALL air service.
 
N1120A
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RE: Why Only NW To Kitchener?

Wed Sep 21, 2005 5:38 am

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 5):
Quoting N1120A (Reply 4):
Of course they have the right types. UAX uses Saabs and Brasilias and Eagle uses Saabs (ATRs too, but only out of San Juan)

They don't have the right aircraft types in ORD do operate into YKF, thats all that matters. Who cares what they operate on the other side of the US

UA has turboprops out of LAX/SFO, DEN and IAD. Perhaps if they had a few out of ORD, along with dropping some frequencies on RJ routes and adding mainline, they would have more profit potential

Quoting KarlB737 (Reply 11):
Be glad you got that.

It isn't me who has that, it is my girlfriend. As is, we just use YYZ or (mostly) BUF
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
accargo
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RE: Why Only NW To Kitchener?

Wed Sep 21, 2005 5:54 am

Quoting Yow (Reply 10):
The demand is there, how could there not be from a city of almost 1/2 millon, it's just that most of it is directed to YYZ, with a bit going to YHM, BUF & YXU. On YKF's website, they have a report showing they believe the local O&D from Kitchener-Waterloo currently stands at 1.1 million.

So, if there is in fact demand there (real demand not numbers manufactured by the airport authority) then I guess other airlines are just missing the boat.  Smile

The list of cities and towns that feel they should have increased service is a very long one. The list of airlines willing to operate those increased services and operate them profitably is a lot shorter.
 
AC777LR
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RE: Why Only NW To Kitchener?

Wed Sep 21, 2005 9:16 am

I just heard that the Region of Waterloo is in talks with Jazz about service to YKF for next year and that they are going to expand on the terminal to acomidate more passengers.
Member since April 2000
 
Tornado82
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RE: Why Only NW To Kitchener?

Wed Sep 21, 2005 9:25 am

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 3):
Just because a city only gets 3 Saab's a day doesn't automatically mean it is unprofitable or likely to be dropped

Yep, look at LBE for example!
 
yow
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RE: Why Only NW To Kitchener?

Wed Sep 21, 2005 11:23 pm

Quoting Accargo (Reply 13):
So, if there is in fact demand there (real demand not numbers manufactured by the airport authority) then I guess other airlines are just missing the boat.

Their research was based on sales figures from local travel agencies, which would paint a pretty accurate picture of the region's traveler profile.
 
Slarty
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RE: Why Only NW To Kitchener?

Thu Sep 22, 2005 12:44 am

Quoting N1120A (Thread starter):
Ok, so this is a totally selfish question, as my girlfriend lives in Cambridge, ON and YKF is closer than YYZ, YHM or BUF and would be a lot easier to fly into.

Since you are travelling from France, have you considered flying to YYZ and taking mini-bus to Cambridge? It should only be about 1.5 hours or so, and should provide door-to-door service.

I flew many times into YYZ in the early 80s and used these services to get to Waterloo. I remember the price as being about $40 ($C) years ago. Also, I am not sure if such a service still exists, but I would be surprised if it doesnt.
 
smokescreen
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RE: Why Only NW To Kitchener?

Thu Sep 22, 2005 4:21 am

I am familiar with both Toronto and the Milton - Guelph - Cambridge area, and given traffic on Hwy 401 you can usually get from Pearson to Cambridge faster than you can get to downtown Toronto.
 
N1120A
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RE: Why Only NW To Kitchener?

Thu Sep 22, 2005 4:29 am

Quoting AC777LR (Reply 14):
I just heard that the Region of Waterloo is in talks with Jazz about service to YKF for next year and that they are going to expand on the terminal to acomidate more passengers.

That would be cool, because I would get UA miles too

Quoting Slarty (Reply 17):
Since you are travelling from France, have you considered flying to YYZ and taking mini-bus to Cambridge? It should only be about 1.5 hours or so, and should provide door-to-door service.

Since you are new, you are forgiven. I am an American, from Los Angeles, was living in New Orleans and am now in Boston. I fly to YYZ or BUF when going to see my girlfriend and I don't need a mini-bus/shuttle as she can just pick me up. For her, YYZ is only about 35-45 minutes, BUF is about 1.5 hours, while YKF is maybe 15-20 minutes
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
MattRB
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RE: Why Only NW To Kitchener?

Thu Sep 22, 2005 4:50 am

Quoting Yow (Reply 10):
A startup airline called Air Province http://www.airprovince.ca wants to launch commuter service to YOW.

Good luck to them. Hopefully they'll fare better than Trillium Air did.
Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible.
 
Olympus69
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RE: Why Only NW To Kitchener?

Thu Sep 22, 2005 11:57 am

Quoting Boeing757/767 (Reply 8):
As mentioned above, keep in mind that even if 12 people were on a 34-seat Saab, those 12, or most of them, might be paying big bucks on a last-minute ticket to NRT via DTW.

Why would anyone want to fly to Tokyo from Kitchener via Detroit? They can drive to YYZ in an hour or so and fly to NRT non-stop; thus avoiding the hassle of US customs and immigration. Although, if there was enough of a fare saving it would be worth while I suppose.
 
northstardc4m
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RE: Why Only NW To Kitchener?

Thu Sep 22, 2005 12:13 pm

Just remember whats in Waterloo...

Quoting Olympus69 (Reply 21):
Why would anyone want to fly to Tokyo from Kitchener via Detroit? They can drive to YYZ in an hour or so and fly to NRT non-stop; thus avoiding the hassle of US customs and immigration. Although, if there was enough of a fare saving it would be worth while I suppose

My bet... they were all in a hurry from that rather large campus in Waterloo... you know the one, 3 letters, pocket devices... also NW DTW-NRT tends to be more convieniently scheduled than AC from YYZ.
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
 
Olympus69
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RE: Why Only NW To Kitchener?

Thu Sep 22, 2005 12:43 pm

Quoting NorthStarDC4M (Reply 22):
My bet... they were all in a hurry from that rather large campus in Waterloo... you know the one, 3 letters, pocket devices

I always thought that was the 2 letter one (UW), rather than the 3 letter one (WLU)  Smile
 
AC777LR
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RE: Why Only NW To Kitchener?

Thu Sep 22, 2005 12:50 pm

YKF has a lot to offer as far as business goes, there is Toyota, Rim, and ATS that are all around that airport.
Member since April 2000
 
yow
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RE: Why Only NW To Kitchener?

Tue Oct 04, 2005 11:03 pm

Quoting MattRB (Reply 20):
Good luck to them. Hopefully they'll fare better than Trillium Air did.

...or Quikair for that matter. A couple of keys to success would
a) the company be properly funded with sufficient startup capital to sustain the inevitable losses at the beginning.
b) not using Junkstream/Jetstream 31, which can't even do YOW-YKF with a full load. This Air Province outfit states they want to use King Airs (doesn't state what model), which would allow them to also offer a better schedule than Trillium or Quikair could ever offer and which is so important to the biz traveller.
 
Slarty
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RE: Why Only NW To Kitchener?

Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:27 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 19):
Since you are new, you are forgiven. I am an American, from Los Angeles, was living in New Orleans and am now in Boston.

Since you're not new, I can ask a noob question? Why do you have a French flag indicating you are 'From France' then? Are you a conehead? : Big grin
 
MattRB
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RE: Why Only NW To Kitchener?

Wed Oct 05, 2005 3:04 am

Just pondering..

What do you think the chances a VLJ airtaxi service would have, operating out of YKF?

Maybe running something like an Adam A700 or Eclipse 500 (once certed and whatnot)..
Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible.
 
N1120A
Topic Author
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RE: Why Only NW To Kitchener?

Wed Oct 05, 2005 6:15 am

Quoting Slarty (Reply 26):
Since you're not new, I can ask a noob question? Why do you have a French flag indicating you are 'From France' then? Are you a conehead?

Naturally, and I consume am currently consuming mass quantities  Silly
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
stirling
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RE: Why Only NW To Kitchener?

Wed Oct 05, 2005 6:53 am

I get a sardonic grin every time someone asks the question:
"Why doesn't Airline ZZ fly to AAA airport?"

The standard response, no matter how intelligent the question might actually be is, "Well, the airlines know what they're doing, so if there was any business there, they'd fly the route!"

I think these (and all) questions deserve a little more courtesy.

The person asking the question, and not just in this case, is looking for more than just the standard brush-off....maybe some historical information; information concerning weather and lack of suitable nav aids; airport operating practices and policies; local economy (or lack thereof); surrounding airport competition; anything but the blow-off.

So let me start this thread over. OK?

Hey, Once upon a time, Canadi>n* airlines of various flavours once served the airport in Kitchener Ontario, why don't they now, and why is the only airline there; a US one?
When was the last time an airline from Canada served the place, and what led them to leave?

I hope none of you who poo-pooed the question ever have to ask a question yourself...because I'll be watching!  Wink


* ">" substituted for an "A" and "E" as to not offend those who might favour either, or....
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accargo
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RE: Why Only NW To Kitchener?

Wed Oct 05, 2005 8:22 am

Quoting N1120A (Thread starter):
So, how come Northwest are the only ones flying into YKF? Why are there not a few AC regional/jazz flights, or some UAX/Eagle Turbo-Props into YKF to give NW some competition?

Okay Stirling, where would Jazz, UAX, and anyone else fly to from YKF? You didn't like the answer given, but sometimes it is as simple as "the airlines decided they can't make money there"

YKF and Cambridge are a 45 minute drive on a 6 lane highway from YYZ. The population of Hamilton is approx 660,000 and it lives in the same shadow cast by Pearson Airport. It also suffers from limited sched service, while the population of Kitchener is approx. 220,000. Both are less than an hour from a hub with connections to virtually anywhere in the world.

The original question wasn't "In 5000 words or less explain why YKF has limited service using analytical reasoning and economic figures to prove your hypothesis" It was more "I want more flights so I can see my girlfriend"

 Smile
 
ScarletHarlot
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RE: Why Only NW To Kitchener?

Wed Oct 05, 2005 9:12 am

Quoting Olympus69 (Reply 23):
I always thought that was the 2 letter one (UW), rather than the 3 letter one (WLU)

I think he was referring to RIM, Research in Motion, and the Blackberry.  Smile
But that was when I ruled the world
 
N1120A
Topic Author
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RE: Why Only NW To Kitchener?

Wed Oct 05, 2005 9:16 am

Quoting Accargo (Reply 30):
Okay Stirling, where would Jazz, UAX, and anyone else fly to from YKF?

I am not Stirling. UAX could fly to ORD, AC/Jazz could fly turboprops to YYZ/YUL

Quoting Accargo (Reply 30):
The population of Hamilton is approx 660,000 and it lives in the same shadow cast by Pearson Airport. It also suffers from limited sched service

Yet Hamilton gets WS and AC service

Quoting Accargo (Reply 30):
It was more "I want more flights so I can see my girlfriend"

Actually it was more "I want more flights so they are cheaper and I can get MileagePlus miles when I fly to see my girlfriend and not have to deal with an hour and a half drive to BUF." Big grin
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
accargo
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RE: Why Only NW To Kitchener?

Wed Oct 05, 2005 10:18 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 32):
UAX could fly to ORD, AC/Jazz could fly turboprops to YYZ/YUL

It's likely a 20 minute flight to YYZ from YKF, are you willing to pay what the airlines will charge to turn a profit on that short a route? As for ORD and YUL, is there enough demand for O and D traffic only? Someone wanting to connect onwards from either ORD or YUL would likely find a non-stop flight to their destination from YYZ.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 32):
Yet Hamilton gets WS and AC service

YHM gets limited WJ and AC service. WJ pulled the majority of it's flights from YHM because the majority of the business is thru YYZ.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 32):
Actually it was more "I want more flights so they are cheaper and I can get MileagePlus miles when I fly to see my girlfriend and not have to deal with an hour and a half drive to BUF."

I translate that to mean I want a cheap ticket and I don't really care if the airline makes a profit on the route.  Big grin I understand that it would be great if you could get there cheaper and faster and with lot's of FF miles, but is there realistically a business case to be made to the airlines for the routes you mentioned?
 
AC777LR
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RE: Why Only NW To Kitchener?

Wed Oct 05, 2005 10:36 am

Hey ACCargo, I heard through the Region that they are in talks with Jazz about service to YKF....but where would this service go to? YOW, YUL?
Member since April 2000
 
N1120A
Topic Author
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RE: Why Only NW To Kitchener?

Wed Oct 05, 2005 4:52 pm

Quoting Accargo (Reply 33):
It's likely a 20 minute flight to YYZ from YKF, are you willing to pay what the airlines will charge to turn a profit on that short a route?

UAX runs 10-15 minute flight time flights all over Southern California, and has successfully for years. I am not talking about sending UltraRapidAir 767s to YKF, I am talking about a Dash-8 3-4 times a day. They could charge $50-$100 more for the ticket and easily make money.

Quoting Accargo (Reply 33):
As for ORD and YUL, is there enough demand for O and D traffic only? Someone wanting to connect onwards from either ORD or YUL would likely find a non-stop flight to their destination from YYZ.

Wouldn't need to be O&D. NW's DTW Saabs are not for O&D, they are to connect to well timed international and US domestic flights. The same would be true with AC flights to YUL for European connections as well as UA flights to ORD for Pacific, European, US and Latin connections. Like I said, it seems that NW is commanding a pretty penny for their flights. Pre-hurricane, MSY-BUF was 1/3rd the price of MSY-YKF. That means people are paying to fly to Kitchener and they are paying prices that go WAY beyond what an airline needs to make money into the airport.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
MattRB
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RE: Why Only NW To Kitchener?

Wed Oct 05, 2005 10:45 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 35):
Pre-hurricane, MSY-BUF was 1/3rd the price of MSY-YKF. That means people are paying to fly to Kitchener and they are paying prices that go WAY beyond what an airline needs to make money into the airport.

How much of that MSY-YKF ticket was tax tho? The addition of transborder taxes generally adds a ton to the price of a ticket.
Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible.
 
N1120A
Topic Author
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RE: Why Only NW To Kitchener?

Thu Oct 06, 2005 12:31 am

Quoting MattRB (Reply 36):
How much of that MSY-YKF ticket was tax tho? The addition of transborder taxes generally adds a ton to the price of a ticket.

Ok then, let me put it this way. MSY-YKF was about twice as expensive as MSY-YYZ
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
stirling
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RE: Why Only NW To Kitchener?

Thu Oct 06, 2005 1:44 am

Quoting Accargo (Reply 30):
Okay Stirling, where would Jazz, UAX, and anyone else fly to from YKF? You didn't like the answer given, but sometimes it is as simple as "the airlines decided they can't make money there"

I don't have a clue.
But you did a smashing job of explaining it here:

Quoting Accargo (Reply 30):
YKF and Cambridge are a 45 minute drive on a 6 lane highway from YYZ. The population of Hamilton is approx 660,000 and it lives in the same shadow cast by Pearson Airport. It also suffers from limited sched service, while the population of Kitchener is approx. 220,000. Both are less than an hour from a hub with connections to virtually anywhere in the world.

And it only required 4 sentences!

So I would I be guessing correctly that YKF had scheduled airline service by airlines other than NW at a time before the freeway was opened?

I don't want to start a row over this, but cannot you see that the reply you gave me is SO much more condusive to an intelligent conversation?

All things aviation interest me, and I come to websites such as this to get an education.....standard off-the-shelf answers serve no purpose, so why waste yours and others time?
There may be a time when you have a question you'd like answered.

("You" = "All those who offer nothing, but their superior intelligence"....not necessarily aimed at you Accargo, and should in no way be misinterpreted as such; this is a frustration brought about by my broad observations of how things play here on A.Net.)
 

[Edited 2005-10-05 18:46:29]
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